Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXIV – The Evil Breath of Morgoth in Dor-lómin, discussion thread

[Nogrod]

The players


Thinlómien
Legate of Amon Lanc
Huinesoron
Loslote
Pitchwife
Kath
Galadriel55
Lhunardawen
Inziladun
Kitanna
A Little Green
Boromir88
Urwen
Lalaith
Brinniel
Eönwë
Macalaure
Rikae
Rune Son of Bjarne
THE Ka
Satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin


General rules.


The roles (with 22 players)

5 Infectors ("wolves")
1 Cobbler

1 Seer
1 Ranger
1 Hunter
1 Innocent Child

12 ordinary Villagers


Victory conditions

The Villagers win if they get rid of all the Infectors. The Infectors win, if they manage to even the number of innocent Villagers with their own numbers. The Cobbler wins if the Infectors win and s/he is still among the healthy Villagers (s/he may of course take it as moral victory though, if the evil wins even if s/he is quarantined).

There is a kind of a secondary victory condition as well. If the Villagers manage to keep Lalaith safe, they get a lot of credit and can prize themselves for keeping up the cause of beauty and goodness in this dark and evil world. This concerns the QT especially as players there already know their characters and should be more concerned also about that side of the story.

The Infectors hold infecting or quarantining Lalaith a special reward as well: what would be more fitting to Morgoth than destroying joy, innocence and laughter? Even if the Infectors lose, they might hold removing Lalaith a sort of a consolation prize.

NB. These secondary conditions have no bearing on the actual winning conditions and are mainly for giving the game some extra emotional weight, and naturally for bragging rights after the game.


The Threads

- 1 Game Thread for the supposed healthy Villagers ("the living") where people vote everyDay for one person to be quarantined.
- 1 Quarantine Thread for the secluded and Nightly infected ("the dead") where people vote everyDay to whom to give their one vote in the Game Thread

Everyone belongs to one of the threads and no-one belongs to both - and they are able to post only on that one Thread. The Quarantined are allowed to read the Game Thread as well, but the healthy are not allowed to read the QT. Discussion in the Game Thread is prohibited during the Nights, but the QT is open around the clock.


Deadlines

- Deadline for voting Daily in the Game Thread is 9PM GMT/UTC (which ends the Day)
- Deadline for voting Daily in the Quarantine Thread is 7PM GMT/UTC (aka. two hours before the Game deadline) after which it is revealed (by the mod) in the Game Thread.
- Deadline for Nightly actions for the special roles is 8PM GMT/UTC (aka. one hour before a new Day begins). Earlier announcements are strongly encouraged and approved of.

- Narration which includes the revealing of the newly quarantined's role will be posted in the Game Thread as soon as possible, hopefully within half an hour from the voting Deadline.
- Every new Day begins with a Nightly narration revealing the person and role that has been infected at Night (if there is one).


Voting

-Make your vote on a separate line (with one empty line both over and under it). Use the traditional form:

++ Nogrod

To make it look like that (to make it “highlighted”), bold the vote and then change the letter B in square brackets into the word: highlight

Like this (with also a square bracket on the left)

highlight]++ Nogrod[/highlight]

- If in a last second frenzy, you can edit the “highlighting” after you have first just sent the vote, but that applies only to votes sent on the very last seconds (to avoid being late with your vote because of needing to type the word ‘highlight’ twice). All other editing of the votes is strictly prohibited.
- There are no retractable votes aka. once sent, the highlighted votes are final.


Rules for ties in voting

- If there is a tie in votes in the Game Thread, the one who has gotten the most number of votes the earliest is quarantined.
- If there is a tie of votes in the Quarantine Thread, the one who has been quarantined the latest - and has voted for one of the tied candidates - has the final say (aka. her vote counts practically as two). NB. A Nightly infected person is not counted as the "most recently quarantined" unless the tie can not be solved following this rule (in case of which it counts).


Rules concerning special characters

- The Seer learns all the roles.
- The Ranger can’t protect the same person two Nights in a row and can’t protect himself.
- If the Hunter is targeted by Night he will fight and attack whomever he has chosen to hunt (so he's the "illogical hunter") – both will be turned into the QT in the morning. If the Hunter is voted to be quarantined at the end of a Day, he will take with him anyone he has chosen, whoever that is.
- The Cobbler is counted among the innocents in the tally that decides whether the Infectors have won or not (even number of players on both sides).
- The Innocent Child can reveal herself to be the Innocent Child. In that case the Mod confirms the revelation.
- If anyone with a special role that includes Nightly actions doesn’t inform me at least one hour before the Deadline (the Daybreak), aka. 8PM GMT/UTC, that action is botched up.
- Players with a singular special role know their characters in the story. As I think I discussed these possibilities openly somewhere (and behind the scenes with my fellow Finnish 'Downers), let's make them public and official: Seer = Húrin, Ranger = Huor, Hunter = Túrin, The Innocent Child = Urwen/Lalaith, Cobbler = Andróg. Anyone can use this information in any way they see fitting their aims.


Narration, characters, players

- The narration will build an alternative legendarium. It is based on the characters of the CoH and is guided by your decisions in the game. Everyone of you is paired with certain character in the legendarium and that bond will come public in the narrations whenever someone is quarantined or moved into the QT because of the Nightly actions. The people in the QT are free to exploit those connections and have their fun with them as they wish.
- Important note: it will be in vain to search for clues from the narrations as to the roles (seer, ranger, “wolf”…) of the players. There will be none. The characters of the narrations will follow their personalities and commitments, not the actions or words of the players in the game whom they are paired with. The game you play just directs their destinies and thus creates the narrative.


Modfire

- A person who does not vote or post in two Days in a row, will be modfired.
- A person who continuously avoids being modfired by posting just the minimum (fex. posts one oneliner in every other Day) may be given a warning. A modfire results from two warnings. (Everyone doesn't have to flood-post, but everyone should at least show a minimal interest to the game.)
- If someone has RL problems taking part at certain times, please notify others of it in this Discussion Thread. The mod is also much more lenient to proclaimed absences.


Technical remainders

- Go to invisbility mode (User CP -> Edit Options -> Invisible mode). The Mod will be visible so you can see if he’s around.
- Check that you have room in your PM box.
- If you have questions, check the rules first. If there is no answer there, you can always PM the Mod. You may ask about a specific rule in the Game Thread as well if it looks like it is a question we haven’t tackled with before the game, but especially in that case, PM the Mod as well.
- Use the Discussion Thread for any “Meta-info” aka. if you suddenly need to be away for some considerable time or have technical problems etc.


Apropos

Less experienced players - and why not also the "rusty veterans" - might do well to check the quite nice guidelines, abbreviations etc. Morm has gathered together. The post is pinned on the "Middle-Earth Mirth" and can be found here: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=16791

[Nogrod]

Okay. Let's start the discussion of the game here.

Here are some of my preliminary thoughts on it.


Firstly, I think I have a nice solution to this"dead thread" problem.

Because this is a story about the House of Hador and the people of Haleth, who are true to their kin not killing each other based on random accusations, we should treat the whole matter in a bit different way. Especially as it is the highly contagious Evil Breath of Morgoth that torments them rather than some basic werewolves just ripping their limbs apart.

So instead of a graveyard or a dead-thread, a quarantine-house is called for!

The villagers lock up one person at the end of every Day in quarantine ("lynching") and every morning one person who has gotten sick ("killed by wolves") by Night is being carried there as well.

All the roles are revealed in "death". If the roles are not told, the game becomes even more random than it already is.


Secondly, I think I also came up with quite a nice idea for the "dead-thread" aka. quarantine-thread (QT).

All the people in QT can, and hopefully will, use their Days discussing the matters and then, let's say two hours before the Deadline, they vote to whom they will give their vote that Day. So the quarantined have one vote, no matter how many they are.

The vote of the QT is then announced to the villagers immediately (two hours before the Dl, for example) and will be put down in the general tally of votes.

Originally Posted by Legate

In the absolutely worst case, a Wolf will end up lynched on Day 1, then ostracised by fellow dead, and will be bored for the rest of the game. But that is the worst-case scenario for one person, as opposed to everyone else. I think it's worth it.

Agreed.

Even I could see in this scenario something fun even for the lonely D1 "lynched" wolf. For I was thinking that in case of a tie in votes (in the QT) it would be the most "veteran" quarantined who would make the final decision between the ones with same number of votes. So on D2 the wolf would be the one who chooses, who to give the QT-vote! (Place for many different tactics!!!)



So, what say you? Comments, suggestions?


PS. Someone asked when we would start? I'd say that as soon as we get enough players to have a decent game. I'd say 12 the least. If my memory serves me right the old school games were normally between something like 14-16 players? That I think would be ideal. So maybe not in a day or two, but next week probably, hopefully?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So instead of a graveyard or a dead-thread, a quarantine-house is called for!

How very excellent!

Originally Posted by Nogrod

All the roles are revealed in "death". If the roles are not told, the game becomes even more random than it already is.

That would seem to have a large effect on the Quarantined votes. How likely are the Innocents there to listen to a known baddie?

[Huinesoron]

Does this mean the "Wolves" are asymptomatic carriers? I kind of love it.

I wonder whether a full-fledged Quarantine Vote might not disrupt things too much, though - for instance, if a Seer gets killed without explicitly revealing their results, the village would almost have to follow the first Quarantine Vote on the assumption that the Seer was behind it. I don't really know whether that would be a problem, though, or if it's just part of the fun.

As far as the seniority system goes: rather than pinning the timing down to a single person being available at the right moment, I'd suggest making a tie go to whichever person had the most veteran Quarantinee vote for them, out of the QTs who were involved in the tie. So if the Day 1 lynch votes for a third party, we'd look at the Night 1 kill's vote instead (or the Day 2 lynch, etc etc). That makes it slightly more automatic, and means a less-active Quarantine House isn't a game-breaker.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That would seem to have a large effect on the Quarantined votes. How likely are the Innocents there to listen to a known baddie?

That depends - is the know baddie saying 'you definitely shouldn't vote for him, he's totally not a wolf' - and are they telling the truth when they say it? They're definitely giving you information - you just need to work out if it's a bluff or not.

hS

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That would seem to have a large effect on the Quarantined votes. How likely are the Innocents there to listen to a known baddie?

Well, most probably very little.

But like Legate said, we've seen some hilarious trolling going on in a dead thread were a wolf starts to run amok... And I think that's the way of least problems and most people gaining a longer and more satisfying game.

Without a "dead-thread" aka. Quarantine-Thread this time, the innocent "lynched" on D1 or killed on N2 gets to play just one Day and that's it: after all these years of not playing a game that's quite an anticlimax, to put it mildly...

One could say, that even if this is kind of a bad thing for a early-lynched wolf, it is not any worse than just being lynched in a game without a dead-thread (actually I'd say it's better) and that the wolf has anyway gotten the thrills of playing a wolf - which is more exciting than playing a normal villager on early Days.

So I wouldn't think of that as a problem.


Also I think those games where we've had the dead-thread trying to signal something to the living / sending their thoughts with delay (like the village gets to know what they did the next Day, or if someone visits there or whatever versions we've had) have mostly just not worked that well. Them being able instead to follow the village discussion almost all Day everyDay, and then giving an actual vote before the deadline (yet early enough the villagers have some time to pay heed to it), feels to me much more interesting to both the villagers and the dead (quarantined, that is).

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

As far as the seniority system goes: rather than pinning the timing down to a single person being available at the right moment, I'd suggest making a tie go to whichever person had the most veteran Quarantinee vote for them, out of the QTs who were involved in the tie.

That is actually a fair point: we can't be sure we have the most senior Quarantined person available if s/he hasn't voted for either or the tied candidates. So let's say that in a case of a tie in QT the most "veteran" quarantined player's (in sense of how early that person got there, that is) vote for either / any of the evenly voted is the tie-breaker.

[Galadriel55]

Something I wanna clarify: does the QT vote to empower a living vote, or casts a vote of their own independently of the living thread?

[A Little Green]

Late to the party, but count me in! Also can I say that I love the abbreviation QT as it makes the dead thread sound very cute

[Boromir88]

Yes....let's do it

Thanks Nog!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Late to the party, but count me in! Also can I say that I love the abbreviation QT as it makes the dead thread sound very cute

I like that much better than my first association...

[Nogrod]

Nice too see you Greenie and Boro!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Something I wanna clarify: does the QT vote to empower a living vote, or casts a vote of their own independently of the living thread?

They are like one villager - and they have one vote.

Think of it like this (I'm not sure I got your question correctly). Every living villager has one vote each but the QT has one vote as a unit whatever the number of them are (and that is a result of their own "internal voting").

The QT is like one villager then, voting with the other villagers at the end of everyDay. And like a villager can give her/his vote any time of the Day, the QT gives it's vote at a certain time of the Day. I was thinking about two hours before the DL to be fair to both parties (the QT would have as long time as possible to see what happens on the Day they give their vote - and the villagers would have some decent time to pay heed to what the QT voted).


I think it could be very interesting if the game goes on for longer: as the number of people in QT arises in proportion to the living villagers, the weight of their vote also increases. For example an early game one vote from 15 votes (14 villagers remaining) is pretty insignificant, but one vote from four in the endgame (three villagers remaining) is quite huge indeed!

I love the abbreviation QT as it makes the dead thread sound very cute

Hehe. Didn't kind of vocalise it in my mind before you mentioned it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

They are like one villager - and they have one vote.

Think of it like this (I'm not sure I got your question correctly). Every living villager has one vote each but the QT has one vote as a unit whatever the number of them are (and that is a result of their own "internal voting").

The QT is like one villager then, voting with the other villagers at the end of everyDay. And like a villager can give her/his vote any time of the Day, the QT gives it's vote at a certain time of the Day. I was thinking about two hours before the DL to be fair to both parties (the QT would have as long time as possible to see what happens on the Day they give their vote - and the villagers would have some decent time to pay heed to what the QT voted).

Sounds like a good idea. However, I wonder whether it may not be better to do the thing that has been done a few times in the past - that the Dead Thread (or in this case, QT) "empowers" a villager by voting for someone, and the person they vote for then gets, for instance, an extra weight for their vote - i.e. their vote counts as two.

I believe that sometimes this was done for the Day at hand, making it kind of more of a wild card for the living (suddenly, one player's vote counted as two and everyone realised it only at the narration); but sometimes it was also done for the next Day (and the villagers knew who was chosen?).

The advantages of this were among other things that the Dead could thus send the Living some messages, as in, not only empowering people in order to catch Wolves, but also to signal, say, "hey, you can trust person X" or "what X has been saying makes sense" etc. To be sure, it offered plenty of room for the Living (with the Wolves assisting merrily) to bicker about what exactly it was that the Dead were exactly trying to say etc. Sometimes however this mechanic got straightaway "hijacked" by the Living dictating the Dead what they should do (not that the Dead listened, if I remember correctly).

But I don't know honestly whether the option you presented (just giving a vote) may be better and more straightforward.

Just one more concern I wanted to mention - having a "QT DL" as you say, e.g. 2 hours before real DL is nice idea, it kind of equalizes the fact that the Dead can figure out a bit more than the Living with the fact that they won't have all the facts (usually lots of things can happen in the last 2 hours). And it MAY serve as an incentive for the Living to start voting from there - my only concern is whether the Living won't be reluctant to vote before the Dead vote. But not that people are usually in a hurry with their votes anyway.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Sounds like a good idea. However, I wonder whether it may not be better to do the thing that has been done a few times in the past - that the Dead Thread (or in this case, QT) "empowers" a villager by voting for someone, and the person they vote for then gets, for instance, an extra weight for their vote - i.e. their vote counts as two.

I actually like the separate vote (as opposed to an empowering vote) better. I've never played in a dead thread game, but I followed them, and the empowerment did seem like more stress and complication than good use. Besides, the big debate in past games was how to use the vote to communicate information, as roles were not known. However, Roles will be known here, and the information left to convey is more vague (e.g. who we think the dead wolf's pack is, who the Seer dreamed as innocent two nights ago). I think it's cooler to let the dead keep voting a diluted vote that directly affects the tally.


By the way, what happens to the Gifteds when they are in quarantine? Can the Seer still dream? And how about Wolves - can dead Wolves PM amongst themselves?

[Thinlómien]

Ok I'm not diving into the rule discussion right now but:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sally (if she can get logged in)
Macalaure (if his account will allow him to post)

I hear Greenie and Kath had similar type issues and they both got them sorted by Esty who know which mod to ask to fix it. I'm sure no one will have to sit this one out just because of technical problems!

[Lalaith]

I'm really busy at work despite the lockdown...oh fine...count me in

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Sounds like a good idea. However, I wonder whether it may not be better to do the thing that has been done a few times in the past - that the Dead Thread (or in this case, QT) "empowers" a villager by voting for someone, and the person they vote for then gets, for instance, an extra weight for their vote - i.e. their vote counts as two.

...

The advantages of this were among other things that the Dead could thus send the Living some messages, as in, not only empowering people in order to catch Wolves, but also to signal, say, "hey, you can trust person X" or "what X has been saying makes sense" etc. To be sure, it offered plenty of room for the Living (with the Wolves assisting merrily) to bicker about what exactly it was that the Dead were exactly trying to say etc. Sometimes however this mechanic got straightaway "hijacked" by the Living dictating the Dead what they should do (not that the Dead listened, if I remember correctly).

That part in bold is just what I wanted to avoid. Back in those games those discussions took most of the air from the thread and people talked less about who to vote than how to best use the game mechanics and why the other thread should comply...

So yes, I was willing to make it more straightforward.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

By the way, what happens to the Gifteds when they are in quarantine? Can the Seer still dream? And how about Wolves - can dead Wolves PM amongst themselves?

I think it has been the general rule that all the special abilities and advances the different gifts bring to people are negated in death aka. in quarantine. So no more dreams to the Seer, no more PM'ing with the other "Infectors" (wolves) by Night, no more hunting or rangering...



One more question about that QT-vote came to mind from your comments. Should it actually be just one hour before the DL they have to vote? In a normal game the action tends to pack into the last hour of the Day - or the last 1½ hours - if the Deadline is good for most people. I wouldn't want to leave it to the very end but would like to leave the Villagers some time to mull the QT vote over before the DL. On the other hand, the later the QT can follow the things folding out the more reasoned choices they can made - and the more fulfilling the game is for them.

Just remember, that a "more reasoned choice" doesn't equal "the right choice"



Talking of the Deadline...

As no-one wishes for an early morning Deadline (US late evening translates into early morning in Europe), I'd suggest we'd go for something like little bit before Midnight GMT. That would be Midnight or little after in Finland, little before in Continental Europe and an hour earlier in the UK - and something like afternoon in the Eastern US.

What do you think?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I'm really busy at work despite the lockdown...oh fine...count me in

Oh yes!

Hehe. Now we have both Lalaith and Urwen in the game!

And I was kind of planning that the aim of the game (in non-rules sense of it) would be to change the Legendarium and save Urwen / Lalaith from death! But does it now have to be "both"? How shall I name that poor little girl in the narrations now?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

One more question about that QT-vote came to mind from your comments. Should it actually be just one hour before the DL they have to vote? In a normal game the action tends to pack into the last hour of the Day - or the last 1½ hours - if the Deadline is good for most people. I wouldn't want to leave it to the very end but would like to leave the Villagers some time to mull the QT vote over before the DL. On the other hand, the later the QT can follow the things folding out the more reasoned choices they can made - and the more fulfilling the game is for them.

Just remember, that a "more reasoned choice" doesn't equal "the right choice"

The pros of an earlier QT vote is that it potentially gives information (whether correct or not) to the game thread - i.e. the Sick think that it's better to vote for X than Y. But the pros of a later (or even at deadline) QT vote is that it is more of a "thunderbolt from heaven" type of thing, to alter events but not the interactions at the end of the Day. The earlier you put it, the more it influences the living votes.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And I was kind of planning that the aim of the game (in non-rules sense of it) would be to change the Legendarium and save Urwen / Lalaith from death! But does it now have to be "both"? How shall I name that poor little girl in the narrations now?

The true daughter of Hurin?

[Loslote]

What if there's an extra win condition for the Dead Thread: "Your death was 'worth it' if The True Daughter of Hurin survives". Only the Dead know who that is, and they're voting to try to keep her alive. Could be a fun sub plot, and one that both villagers and wolves can work together on.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

All the people in QT can, and hopefully will, use their Days discussing the matters and then, let's say two hours before the Deadline, they vote to whom they will give their vote that Day. So the quarantined have one vote, no matter how many they are.

The vote of the QT is then announced to the villagers immediately (two hours before the Dl, for example) and will be put down in the general tally of votes.

I think this is a great idea. I like the idea of a separate thread and that the vote is thrown at the Live Thread a little before the deadline. Like you say, there's often a flurry of activity right before the deadline and suddenly getting an extra vote will definitely make things interesting!

In terms of timings, I think a deadline of an hour before on the QT would give the LT enough time to dissect the vote to death before end of Day.

Originally Posted by Loslote

What if there's an extra win condition for the Dead Thread: "Your death was 'worth it' if The True Daughter of Hurin survives". Only the Dead know who that is, and they're voting to try to keep her alive. Could be a fun sub plot, and one that both villagers and wolves can work together on.

This sounds like such a fun idea! Gives the QT something extra to work towards as well.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Loslote

What if there's an extra win condition for the Dead Thread: "Your death was 'worth it' if The True Daughter of Hurin survives". Only the Dead know who that is, and they're voting to try to keep her alive. Could be a fun sub plot, and one that both villagers and wolves can work together on.

And it might nicely meddle with the thinking of everyone in the gamethread...

I have been pondering how to make Urwen/Lalaith special (I was thinking of Morwen the Seer, Húrin the Ranger and little Túrin the haphazard Hunter who might accidentally turn things for the worse) and thinking how keeping her alive against the legend would be a nice touch - but this never occured to me!

I promise to give this a good thought.

[Brinniel]

Has it really been almost three years since I last played? Yeesh.

I could use some distraction from our current reality. Count me in. I may be a bit rusty, but then again, I suppose we all are...

[Eönwë]

Ok, I’m in. It’s been too long.

[Urwen]

When will the game begin?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That part in bold is just what I wanted to avoid. Back in those games those discussions took most of the air from the thread and people talked less about who to vote than how to best use the game mechanics and why the other thread should comply...

So yes, I was willing to make it more straightforward.

In that case, fair enough! If you took these into consideration, I'm up for it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I think it has been the general rule that all the special abilities and advances the different gifts bring to people are negated in death aka. in quarantine. So no more dreams to the Seer, no more PM'ing with the other "Infectors" (wolves) by Night, no more hunting or rangering...

I think the Gifteds' abilities go without saying, they should not exist, especially since the quarantined still have the power to vote - otherwise a quarantined Seer could just spam everyone with names and that would be no fun.

The only thing I'm thinking about are the Wolves. Especially given that they are going to be vastly outnumbered by (this time known!) innocents, allowing them to PM (with only other quarantined Wolves, of course) might alleviate the ostracisation-feeling. Then again, it isn't such a big difference, plus if the first Wolf is quarantined alone for a long time, it won't change a thing. Most of all, it would be a narrative problem, how to explain that quarantined people still communicate. Unless you made it so that those awful people are breaking quarantine even inside the quarantine house and meeting with each other when other quarantined ones are sleeping. (Actually, that would be a reasonable narrative explanation... But whichever. Not being able to talk otherwise could give the Wolves an incentive to participate on the QT more actively.)

Originally Posted by Loslote

What if there's an extra win condition for the Dead Thread: "Your death was 'worth it' if The True Daughter of Hurin survives". Only the Dead know who that is, and they're voting to try to keep her alive. Could be a fun sub plot, and one that both villagers and wolves can work together on.

I like this idea. Something like that could be done.

Originally Posted by Kath

In terms of timings, I think a deadline of an hour before on the QT would give the LT enough time to dissect the vote to death before end of Day.

The only thing I am dreading about it is that usually in a normal game, the Day goes like this: people post one page throughout the Day, then one hour before DL, they post two pages or more if something like a Seer-reveal happens. I am a little bit afraid that this could further tip the balance and make the last hour suddenly spammed with analyses and shouts of frustration about what in the name of the sons of Fëanor are the Dead thinking, voting this person. It may be fun, but it may be terrifying.

But I am up for that, just one more thing to consider.

[Thinlómien]

Okay, so I finally read the rules and I like them! I prefer the dead (or the quarantined) actually casting a vote instead of empowering someone - as people have said, that's more straightforward and a little less distracting for the living. So a good idea!

However, I have one suggestion for improvement. Nogrod said that the most veteran "dead" would get the role of the tie-breaker if the quarantined disagree. Okay, that's one option, and that would make being lynched on Day1 kind of a consolation prize because you sort of become the leader of the quarantine for the rest of the game (makes being killed on Night2 the sad fate, I guess ).

But what about the most junior "dead" being the tie-breaker? This way it would change every Day, and possibly cause more chaos because the tie-breakers would have fresh grudges from the living thread in their minds. Of course, here the problem is that two people die for every lynch (the lynch and the night kill), so not everyone would get a go as the tie-breaker anyway. But I would give the tie-breaker role always to the previous lynchee - if it's the night kill, it cannot be a wolf (which is a little boring), and furthermore it might make sense storywise (the strongest in the qurantine is the one who was quarantined the last without showing any symptoms).

Third option is of course that the mod randomises the outcome in case of a tie. Or that it's the first one to get the top amount of votes. We do need to decide on a tie rule for the living thread too, anyway...

Thoughts?

Also, if we count the two last signups *waves* and the two wights in purgatory (errr) with their locked accounts, that makes 18 players. So, 4 wolves, seer, ranger and hunter?

[Nogrod]

Welcome Brinniel and Eönwë, long time no see!

Originally Posted by Urwen

When will the game begin?

It seems we could start whenever we want to, as we seem to have more or less a full village already. I would suggest starting on Sunday or Monday. That would mean we'd have about three days to let Sally and Macalaure try and make it into the 'Downs and make posts, and for us to finish the last issues about the rules.

I have one suggestion for improvement. Nogrod said that the most veteran "dead" would get the role of the tie-breaker if the quarantined disagree. Okay, that's one option, and that would make being lynched on Day1 kind of a consolation prize because you sort of become the leader of the quarantine for the rest of the game

That was what I was thinking about: die first and have something nice as a reward for your tough luck. But your suggestion of picking the latest arrival to be the tiebreaker makes sense game-mechancs-wise too. So let's still think about that.

(Btw. let's also remember, that the tiebreaker naturally is one who has voted for either/any top-vote candidate, so it isn't necessarily the same person every Day.)


What do you think of tiebreaking among the living / healthy? It has traditionally been either the first to get the votes (basically the "original suspect") or the last one (basically the one who's "under heat" just before the decision"). They have a bit different effect on the game mechanics depending on the situation and I'm quite open to either one. I'd rather not randomize it (will do it, if you insist it being the best way to do it).

Also, if we count the two last signups *waves* and the two wights in purgatory (errr) with their locked accounts, that makes 18 players. So, 4 wolves, seer, ranger and hunter?

Yay!

With 18 players surely four wolv... erm... Infestors.

Seer, ranger and hunter naturally.

I know Lommy would love to have a Cobbler as well, and with a bigger village it would make sense to add a little bit to the variety.


If we go to 20 or over, when do you think it would be reasonable to add a fifth baddie or start thinking about some other special roles?

Do you have any reservations or ideas about the size of the Village in the first place? Should we define a roof for the number of players we'd take in?

[Galadriel55]

What do you think of a no lynch or both killed idea for a Game Thread tie? I feel that first votes is rather unpopular because it doesn't reflect the latest developments, and last votes has caused a lot of frustration with people refreshing the page, trying to get their vote in on DL:00.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What do you think of a no lynch or both killed idea for a Game Thread tie? I feel that first votes is rather unpopular because it doesn't reflect the latest developments, and last votes has caused a lot of frustration with people refreshing the page, trying to get their vote in on DL:00.

I have no strong feeling about this and would like to hear what the general opinion is. I kind of dislike the double-lynches or no-lynches - and kind of like the last minute frenzy, and the accompanied adrenaline rush, when people try to beat the clock at the last seconds (it's also quite telling sometimes, what people do in that frenzy - or say they tried to do). But yes, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.


Two questions.

The Deadlines.

I checked the timezones. If the Deadline would be Midnight here in Finland (GMT/UTC +3) I could write the narrations immediately after the Day has ended. Pushing it any further might start giving me problems to stay up and fresh everyday (there will be days I really need to get up early). That would make it one hour earlier (11PM) in continental Europe, and two hours earlier in London (10PM).

In the US the deadline would be according to the Eastern Time -7 hours (from Finland) aka. 5PM (Central Time would then be 4PM).

That's if I read the Daylight Savings stuff correctly.

How do these sound for you?

Anyone from somewhere else?


Game-start / number of players

I asked Sally and Macalaure in Fb whether they'd have enough time to sort their 'Downs-account problems if we'd start with Night1 on Sunday-evening (Sunday afternoon in the US)? So that would be my suggestion as for now.

What do you think about the number of Villagers, should we set a limit or should we let everyone willing to join who does it before the game starts?

In principle it would be nice to let everyone willing to play in, as it has been such a long time since the previous game - and big games do have a certain craziness of their own. But exactly that: huge games are a bit crazy - and kind of call for more roles or extra-rules, which I think are quite not how we were thinking of this in the beginning (a nice small old school game for a change ).

But yes, I'm quite okay with a larger game as well - and am not exactly pushing for added roles (just add more "wolves" if there are more Villagers), but probably the Cobbler.

[Macalaure]

Reporting for duty!

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The Deadlines.

I checked the timezones. If the Deadline would be Midnight here in Finland (GMT/UTC +3) I could write the narrations immediately after the Day has ended. Pushing it any further might start giving me problems to stay up and fresh everyday (there will be days I really need to get up early). That would make it one hour earlier (11PM) in continental Europe, and two hours earlier in London (10PM).

In the US the deadline would be according to the Eastern Time -7 hours (from Finland) aka. 5PM (Central Time would then be 4PM).

That's if I read the Daylight Savings stuff correctly.

How do these sound for you?

Anyone from somewhere else?

Well, 10pm London time is fine by me. If the QT has its own deadline 2 hours earlier, is that going to cause issues for people in the mid-US, who'll be looking at a deadline right in the middle of the day?

hS

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Lommy

But what about the most junior "dead" being the tie-breaker? This way it would change every Day, and possibly cause more chaos because the tie-breakers would have fresh grudges from the living thread in their minds.

I really like this idea. You are right in that it means different people get to have a bit more of a role each day and it also means that the dynamics change every day as well, rather than it always being the veteran.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The Deadlines.

I checked the timezones. If the Deadline would be Midnight here in Finland (GMT/UTC +3) I could write the narrations immediately after the Day has ended. Pushing it any further might start giving me problems to stay up and fresh everyday (there will be days I really need to get up early). That would make it one hour earlier (11PM) in continental Europe, and two hours earlier in London (10PM).

This works nicely for me being a Brit!

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The Deadlines.

I checked the timezones. If the Deadline would be Midnight here in Finland (GMT/UTC +3) I could write the narrations immediately after the Day has ended. Pushing it any further might start giving me problems to stay up and fresh everyday (there will be days I really need to get up early). That would make it one hour earlier (11PM) in continental Europe, and two hours earlier in London (10PM).

In the US the deadline would be according to the Eastern Time -7 hours (from Finland) aka. 5PM (Central Time would then be 4PM).

That's if I read the Daylight Savings stuff correctly.

How do these sound for you?

Anyone from somewhere else?

Southeast Asia; that's 5 AM for me. Le sigh. Such is life.

I shall read everything that's been discussed so far (with some difficulty, having no prior experience with a dead thread) before I can comment on the rules.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That would seem to have a large effect on the Quarantined votes. How likely are the Innocents there to listen to a known baddie?

Oh, you have no idea how much fun can be had as a known baddie in the dead thread.


Two cents or three

-So the dead have no extra knowledge outside of what dead gifteds may reveal?

-I'd prefer it if the quarantine vote is only revealed during the death narration. It wouldn't be much fun if a day's play just comes down to waiting to learn who the dead chose and then bandwaggon on that. And you know that's what's going to happen once a gifted is dead.

-If two wolves are dead, are they allowed to pm each other again?

-And if the QT lot essentially counts as one villager, can the living lynch the dead thread as a whole, too?


And sadly, any deadline works for me at the moment...

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

-If two wolves are dead, are they allowed to pm each other again?

That's a good question. Nog said that the Gifted abilities won't last into the QT but given everyone there will know who the wolves are anyway from the narrations I actually can't see that this would do much harm, and would be fun for the wolves to be able to wonder how their remaining fellows are getting on without giving anything away.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I like that much better than my first association...

Argh, you beat me to this. Also made me wonder if the Evil Breath causes death by cardiac dysrhythmia. (Hush, no bad words on the Downs!)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

One more question about that QT-vote came to mind from your comments. Should it actually be just one hour before the DL they have to vote? In a normal game the action tends to pack into the last hour of the Day - or the last 1½ hours - if the Deadline is good for most people. I wouldn't want to leave it to the very end but would like to leave the Villagers some time to mull the QT vote over before the DL. On the other hand, the later the QT can follow the things folding out the more reasoned choices they can made - and the more fulfilling the game is for them.

Personally won't matter to me; I'll still be voting way before any of the quarantined or uninfected/suspected/probable cases. But if the Living are going to wait for the QT vote I suppose two hours would be better to leave them more than enough time to factor it in? It's bad enough that some people leave out their votes until right before the Day ends without the QT vote adding to the last-minute frenzy.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The only thing I'm thinking about are the Wolves. Especially given that they are going to be vastly outnumbered by (this time known!) innocents, allowing them to PM (with only other quarantined Wolves, of course) might alleviate the ostracisation-feeling. Then again, it isn't such a big difference, plus if the first Wolf is quarantined alone for a long time, it won't change a thing. Most of all, it would be a narrative problem, how to explain that quarantined people still communicate. Unless you made it so that those awful people are breaking quarantine even inside the quarantine house and meeting with each other when other quarantined ones are sleeping. (Actually, that would be a reasonable narrative explanation... But whichever. Not being able to talk otherwise could give the Wolves an incentive to participate on the QT more actively.)

I like the idea of quarantined wolves being able to PM each other. I don't think it tips the balance too much over to the dark side since their ability to converse doesn't necessarily translate to being able to manipulate the rest of the quarantined, but it would be interesting to see what havoc they can wreak together nonetheless.

I'M STILL A RELUCTANT BADDIE, just so we're clear. But this makes for an interesting story.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But what about the most junior "dead" being the tie-breaker? This way it would change every Day, and possibly cause more chaos because the tie-breakers would have fresh grudges from the living thread in their minds. Of course, here the problem is that two people die for every lynch (the lynch and the night kill), so not everyone would get a go as the tie-breaker anyway. But I would give the tie-breaker role always to the previous lynchee - if it's the night kill, it cannot be a wolf (which is a little boring), and furthermore it might make sense storywise (the strongest in the qurantine is the one who was quarantined the last without showing any symptoms).

I agree with this (especially the last point haha). It might get boring if it's always the same person who gets to break a tie, not to mention maybe a bit lopsided if the senior quarantined is a wolf. How often do ties occur in the dead thread in the past, anyhow?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What do you think of tiebreaking among the living / healthy? It has traditionally been either the first to get the votes (basically the "original suspect") or the last one (basically the one who's "under heat" just before the decision"). They have a bit different effect on the game mechanics depending on the situation and I'm quite open to either one. I'd rather not randomize it (will do it, if you insist it being the best way to do it).

I vote for the last one to get to the tie. Agreed, the last-minute frenzy can indeed be telling. I guess this might also better allow the QT vote to be factored into the final count, like for example if it happens that a lot of votes come in before the QT vote is revealed.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But yes, I'm quite okay with a larger game as well - and am not exactly pushing for added roles (just add more "wolves" if there are more Villagers), but probably the Cobbler.

Possibly unpopular opinion: Could we not have a Cobbler? Not just because I still have a grudge against the role (grumble grumble Estel in Werewolf VII grumble grumble), but also there might be so much to consider already for a supposedly simple comeback game. Or maybe it's just me and my nearly decade-long Werewolf-deprived brain.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

-I'd prefer it if the quarantine vote is only revealed during the death narration. It wouldn't be much fun if a day's play just comes down to waiting to learn who the dead chose and then bandwaggon on that. And you know that's what's going to happen once a gifted is dead.

Hm. Excellent point. I vote for this.

++LHUNARDAWEN for flip-flopping

Originally Posted by Macalaure

-And if the QT lot essentially counts as one villager, can the living lynch the dead thread as a whole, too?

Can we do this? Please? Please?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Argh, you beat me to this. Also made me wonder if the Evil Breath causes death by cardiac dysrhythmia. (Hush, no bad words on the Downs!)

It's ok. We know the counter-curses: defibrillators, epinephrine, amiodarone, mag sulphate, and a performance of the ritual chest compression dance.

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Can we do this? Please? Please?

Oh, but you know who's gonna get the Day 1 votes if we allow that...


I am having a bit too much fun, and the game hasn't even started!

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It's ok. We know the counter-curses: defibrillators, epinephrine, amiodarone, mag sulphate, and a performance of the ritual chest compression dance.

To the tune of Stayin' Alive. Or The Imperial March. Whoops, wrong fandom.

Oh, but you know who's gonna get the Day 1 votes if we allow that...

Does this mean we can lynch the Mod God?


Sorry, chat skwerlz. Happy Deathday, Barrow-Downs!

[Nogrod]

Great to see you Macalaure!

And oh yes, sorry Lhuna, I forgot your seriously disadvantaged position in the global map when thinking of timing things with mostly European / North American crowd. Even if you're probably quite used to it already, it's sad still.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I'd prefer it if the quarantine vote is only revealed during the death narration. It wouldn't be much fun if a day's play just comes down to waiting to learn who the dead chose and then bandwaggon on that. And you know that's what's going to happen once a gifted is dead.

Ok. This could actually be a problem. Thanks for pointing it out Mac.

If the Seer dies late in the game and has not managed to reveal anything - or has left just some hints about her dreams, then there surely is a possibility of that problem. Although, if she doesn't have a wolf / wolves on her list, then it's not that a big one - and anyway, the wolves cold use the situation to their advantage (the seer has no "known wolf" and the QT votes for an innocent - the wolves leap on that: "let's follow the Seer!"). Hmm... let's think about that as well.


I'm all for the quarantined wolves being able to PM each other (by Night), but not to the living ones.

Also I think two hours before the DL might b better time for the QT-vote - unless 2-3PM - is too early for many Americans.

Let me hear your thoughts on the cobbler-role. We can include or not, just as the majority wishes.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If the Seer dies late in the game and has not managed to reveal anything - or has left just some hints about her dreams, then there surely is a possibility of that problem. Although, if she doesn't have a wolf / wolves on her list, then it's not that a big one - and anyway, the wolves cold use the situation to their advantage (the seer has no "known wolf" and the QT votes for an innocent - the wolves leap on that: "let's follow the Seer!"). Hmm... let's think about that as well.

Isn't that just classic WW shenanigans?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also I think two hours before the DL might b better time for the QT-vote - unless 2-3PM - is too early for many Americans.

No more problematic that the DL itself.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Let me hear your thoughts on the cobbler-role. We can include or not, just as the majority wishes.

My experience has been that it's tremendous fun to be a Cobbler, and notably annoying for the Village who must deal with xem. If Wolves are three, have one. If an extra Wolf is added, I'm fine either way.