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11-20-2004, 03:50 PM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 80
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Those of Mortal Descent in the Undying Lands
I noticed many on this board think that those mortals who are allowed to go to Valinor die at the end of their usual life spans. I think that they become immortal. I am "reading" the Letters of JRR Tolkien (I put reading in quotes because it is rather difficult to read it in the usual sense).
In one of the letters Professor Tolkien clearly states that Tuor was given elf immortality just as Luthian was given human mortality. Second is what Professor Tolkien says about Valinor in one of the letters: " But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exception or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seems to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel." All the inside quotes are the professor's. Another point (though I admit a shaky one) is why would Bilbo and Sam sail to the Undying lands late in life if they were going to die soon anyway. Particularly Bilbo for I do not see a reason why he could have not died in Rivendell, I am sure the remaining Elves there would have given him a very nice funeral. A final point is in the appendice the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. At the end of his life Aragorn told Arwen to leave for the Undying Lands now that would soon be dead. It would be safe to assume this is because he wanted her to take back her immortality. |
11-20-2004, 04:36 PM | #2 | |
Wight
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But I see your point, Dûrbelethwen. I've wondered myself whether Frodo, Sam, and Bilbo lived on after they were taken to Valinor. Seeing I didn't have a copy of Tolkien's Letters in my possession, I just made my own assumptions about the topic until I could gain knowledge of it. I just figured that the Hobbits stopped aging altogether. I guess you could call it immortality. Thanks for the sources though.
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11-20-2004, 05:01 PM | #3 |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
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I have neither proof nor evidence to support this theory, but my personal opinion is a happy medium: mortals in the Undying Lands will still die, but not until much later than would be normal. Their lives would just be "extended," if you will.
This opinion could, of course, change as I move along through HoME and eventually get to Letters. |
11-20-2004, 05:49 PM | #4 | ||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Where you want me to be
Posts: 1,036
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Some good ideas Dûrbelethwen, but I disagree with your theory. Let me say why:
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Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta. |
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11-21-2004, 12:59 AM | #5 | |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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As Fingolfin II has said, I've shown Tolkien's explanations of what happens to Frodo, Sam, Bilbo, and Gimli - they all die eventually. Aman is place for Frodo, Sam, and Bilbo to find peace in their life without the Ring, and finally rest. The quotes you've read about exceptions - Tuor and Luthien - are correct, but, as stated in some of those quotes, these are the only cases where the fundamental race/fate of a person is changed. You can read that article here with the quotes from letters 154, 246, and 325.
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11-21-2004, 10:18 AM | #6 |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
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It would seem to me a rather cruel fate to leave Frodo, Sam and Bilbo alive forever in Valinor since that would deny them their final reward of dying and passing on to the next stage of existence. Continued life, unending existence, is a curse: the Nazgul being the best example of this, and to a lesser extent Gollum. But even the Elves bear this out -- it's their 'immortal' tie to the physical world that dooms them to things like Feanor's oath and the 'long defeat'. Beings who have life eternal (in this world) are doomed to share this world's fate.
I would hope for much more than that as a final reward for the Ring-bearers! (I am, however, convinced that Frodo was still alive when Sam arrived in the West, and they were reunited once more in this life, for a time.)
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11-21-2004, 12:01 PM | #7 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
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Bur, assuming that there was a boat to take her and with the grace of the Valar, it would, I suppose, have been possible for her to sail to Valinor to see her father and mother one last time before she died the mortal death that she had chosen.
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11-21-2004, 01:33 PM | #8 |
Pilgrim Soul
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I lost my original reply to this, the gist of which was that I thought that, particularly in the case of Bilbo and Frodo, the passing into the west was in order to enable them to make a "good death" and was a reflection of Tolkien's Catholicism. Bilbo's life has been unnaturally stretched by the ring whereas Frodo's has effectively been shortened. They are granted a spell in Aman to find peace and reconcile themselves mentally with their unusual lives. Frodo and Bilbo both go through stages of dying that patients with a terminal prognosis go through prematurely. If you look at this list you can see several paralels:
http://www.focusonals.com/developmen...nd_of_life.htm IE They tidy up their legal affairs, pass on their story in the form of the red book, withdraw from their circle of friends (Bilbo, initially by going to RIvendell) and have reached a level of acceptance. In a sense for them, the West is a hospice. Bilbo's I think would be short, but Frodo I think might hold on for Sam ....
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11-21-2004, 09:28 PM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Re:
I think I would like to point something out.
This adds to the first post, in that I also agree that in some form or another, the mortals who were accepted into Valinor gained immortality. In every case in the Lord of the Rings of mortals given entrance to the Blessed Realm, that privilege was given to them by an immortal. This is very easily recognizeable in Frodo's case. Arwen literally gave him her immortality. This was represented in the form of a symbol - the jewel that she gave him. She foresook her immortality, to remain in Middle Earth, and that left a slot open on the last cruise ship to Valinor, so to speak. Now ... that was the case for Frodo. But it could be that this afforded all the Ringbearers with this chance to go. I've heard somewhere (and this is very vague, and probably unsubstantiated) that Bilbo was able to go, because Thranduil foresook going into the west, and remained in Middle Earth, where his great store of wealth, rivaling those of the great elven lords in Middle Earth, in the elder days, was, content to stay. He really thought Bilbo was an amazing fellow, and was the one who named him Elf Friend if I'm not wrong ... after Bilbo took such a huge step in solving the dilemma between Thorin and the people of the Desolation of Smaug, and smuggled the Arkenstone to them. I have NO clue where I heard that. Maybe my old English teacher mentioned it. But, that doesn't explain Sam, or Gimli. Although Tolkien made a point of saying that Gimli was a very special circumstance, and that no one had ever seen a friendship of the sort that he and Legolas had. (In a strictly platonic way, by the way).
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11-21-2004, 09:48 PM | #10 | ||
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
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Immortality cannot be "given" to someone else. Not even Manwe, King of Arda, can give or take immortality; only Eru himself has the ability to change the fundamental kind (and he only did so twice - Luthien and Tuor). Thus, Frodo and company were to die in Aman:
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11-22-2004, 12:00 AM | #11 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
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Unfortunately I lost most of my Tolkien books in a rather unfortunate incident, but I seem to remember reading that in Valinor, a mortal being will die when they're ready to. Their normal life may be extended, or it may not, depending on whether they're ready to move on or no.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
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12-06-2004, 01:53 PM | #12 | |
The Kinslayer
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I only post this just to have JRRT words in this interesting scenario:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed Quote:
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12-06-2004, 03:56 PM | #13 | ||
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
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About Tuor:
Nobody knows for certain what really happened to him:
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btw, I always wondered what happened to poor Amandil (Elendil's father) ? I suppose he never reached Valinor ? I feel sorry for him, for he had only the best intentions.
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