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#1 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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Bilbo: an unreliable narrator?
Where does the idea that Bilbo is an unreliable narrator come from?
Because on the web, more often than not, you'll find people downplaying or outright dismissing many of the weirder scenes in The Hobbit. Such as, for example: 1) the talking purse and the cockney Trolls (which are, funnily enough, still found in Tolkien's aborted 1960 rewrite of the story - the only substantial deletion in the '60 rewrite is the abandonment of the Narrator) 2) the Giants! Even though Gandalf himself mentions finding a 'more or less decent' Giant to help him close the Goblin trap-door 3) Sassy, singing Elves - again, even though in the LOTR you find both sassy and singing Elves 4) anthropomorphized 'animals' - such as those found in the house of Beorn; or Carc the raven...and, at the risk of repeating myself, you can find such 'animals' in both the LOTR and The Silmarillion (I'm putting the airquotes around the term animals because I don't think they were just ordinary animals to begin with) With all these things said: is Bilbo an unreliable narrator? Judging by the chapter 'The Council of Elrond' in the Book II of the LOTR, I'd say no. Here's a quote from that chapter: Quote:
It seems to me that, other than the fable he told of his meeting with Gollum (influenced by the Ring), Bilbo seems to be a pretty reliable author.
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#2 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Well, we know that Bilbo was an unreliable narrator in at least one instance - in the version of "Riddles in the Dark" that appeared in the first edition of The Hobbit. Of course, this was not an element of the story originally planned by Tolkien, but was rather an ingenious solution that Tolkien hit upon when he was faced with his plans for the Gollum and the Ring in The Lord of the Rings contradicting what was said in The Hobbit. (We talked about this a little bit in a thread about Tolkien and postmodernism a couple of years ago.)
But that's a particular and peculiar instance. I agree with your larger point. Tolkien never seems to have considered those elements apocryphal, and in fact took pains not to contradict The Hobbit in his later writings. Indeed, the very fact that he bothered to invent the conceit that Bilbo initially lied about how he got the Ring shows that he did not consider the material in The Hobbit to be more generally unreliable. |
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#3 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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Well, of course, there's the instance where Bilbo straight up lied about how he got the Ring: but, as you seemed to suggest anyway, that instance was an exception, not the damn rule! Also, the instances where I find such rationalizations are usually when some Tolkien fan can't elegantly square some circles (or worse, things that they just find weird) in Tolkien's writings; such as: Well, these creatures in 'The Hobbit' don't neatly fit in my conception of the legendarium, therefore it must be one of Bilbo's fables.
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#4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
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That said, I often end up disagreeing with folk what think Hobbity X or Y doesn't "fit" within the world of Middle-earth, like, as already mentioned, the giants and the singing of the Elves at Rivendell. __________ aside: I realize Tolkien wrote a new Foreword to The Lord of the Rings. I don't care ![]() And I actually disagree with JRRT's reason for thinking the original Foreword needed to be replaced. The original, author-published Foreword is the version for me, as it's internal -- the second Foreword is Tolkien as author, not translator. |
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#5 | |||
Dead Serious
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So, I really don't buy "Bilbo is an unreliable narrator," but I do like playing the devil's advocate, so let's see if we can make some plausible counter-arguments:
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The Unreliable Narrator explanation for that: Bilbo didn't speak much Sindarin at the time of his adventure and rather than cop to that when writing his account, he just pretended all the text he didn't understand actually WERE nonsense syllables. Quote:
Do I really think Bilbo is unreliable? No. But it's a fun game to play.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#6 | |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,352
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Tolkien dedicated a lot of text in LoTR to his role as the "translator," going so far as including in the appendices a note on translation where he compares the "original" languages. As Galin mentions, the early forward included more on his role as translator. But what was he translating? He makes it clear that he was translating a copy of the Red Book and its affiliated books of lore. And who wrote them (in Tolkien's subcreation)? Bilbo clearly wrote There and Back Again. He likely wrote, at least, the beginning of LoTR, which details events through the time that Frodo and his companions reached Rivendell. So an argument (wholly speculative) exists that JRRT, who was detail-oriented (to be polite), had assumed the role of the "translator," and had identified Bilbo as the original author, intentionally conformed his writing style in the opening chapters of LoTR to the more whimsical style (Bilbo's) he employed in The Hobbit. Because Frodo wrote the balance of LoTR, his tone was different. The inclusion of giants, silly trolls that turn to stone, and Elves singing nonsense? These elements, possibly inconsistent with the otherwise consistent recitations of Middle Earth nature, could be explained as intentional. A combination of Bilbo's writing style (he was crafting a story, not a history) and Bilbo's lack of education, at least until later in his life. Hobbits, and Bilbo, were rustic. So Tolkien included these elements in his "fairy story," originally written primarily for young readers, and retained them as part of the feigned nature of the narrative. Utter speculation, but a potential explanation.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#7 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,309
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Let's also not exclude scribal corruption. The work Tolkien "translated" was not the original Red Book!
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#8 | |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Mar 2024
Posts: 1
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#9 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Sep 2023
Posts: 5
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Unreliable narrator? Or perhaps we are ill-educated readers?
The source and mythology behind the stone-giants is most likely River Legends, 1875 by Edward Knatchbull-Huggesen (one of Tolkien’s favored authors) and the tale of The Giant Bramble-Buffer. Within that story we have colossal rock throwing mountain giants who are also characterized as shouting a lot and depicted to kick folk high in to the air. Those constituents match up splendidly with attributes featured by The Hobbit stone-giants, as does them dwelling in the Swiss Alps which correlates to Tolkien’s 1911 alpine journey (to which he professed inclusion of elements). I’ve recently dealt extensively with what I believe is the fairy-story behind Tolkien’s stone-giant mythology as well as a ‘decent’ real-world source of the Carrock (again, from Tolkien’s 1911 adventures) on a ‘sister’ website: http://www.lotrfanaticsplaza.com/for...pic.php?t=1165 Along with stone-giants, there might be a ‘reasonable’ explanation for those discordant troll names: https://priyasethtolkienfan.wordpres...lorful-pair-4/ So perhaps we should not be too hasty at judging our very learned Professor! |
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#10 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Again, Tolkien himself from his original (published) foreword to The Lord of the Rings:
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For some "in story" considerations see The History of The Hobbit's Timelines And Itinerary, where Tolkien is concerned with distances, dates, phases of the Moon, and even the size of Mirkwood. He includes a timetable from Rivendell to Lake Town as well. And with a later revision, here's a chance to niggle with other details too: like adding dried blood on the famous swords so that Gandalf "couldn't" read the runes on them (couldn't, and didn't immediately read them, that is, and the "task" is still given to Elrond), or introducing place-names from The Lord of the Rings, and a detail like the name of Gandalf's horse. Not to mention a chance to smooth over tone, including removing narrator asides. In 1954 Tolkien wrote that if The Hobbit had been more carefully written, and his world so much thought about 20 years ago, he should not have used the name William for a troll (noting that he'd at least begun The Hobbit as an oral tale for his children, of course). But as has been pointed out, Tolkien retained the name in 1960, and I'm guessing this is at least partly due to Appendix F (published in 1955) now being part of the scenario, wherein a Hobbit-name like "Tom" is not short for "Thomas" for instance, nor even "Samwise" a true name for "Sam" back in "Frodo's" day. In shorter, now the names could be generally "explained" as being translations, even if not specifically explained. Aside: also in the 1960s there appears a troll what bakes bread for a Hobbit called Perry-the-Winkle. In a poem. ![]() I personally don't have a problem with giants (along with giant Ents and Little People) in Tolkien's world, or bear-based skin changers, or certain Elves teasing Dwarves in Rivendell, or singing the way they are depicted in The Hobbit. I could go deeper as to why, but recently (elsewhere) Tar-Elenion made a suggestion with respect to the "singing Elves" scene, and I hope he doesn't mind me reposting it here: Quote:
Last edited by Galin; 03-27-2024 at 11:00 AM. |
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