please tell me that i did not find a contradiction - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

07-15-2002, 08:35 PM

Im confused. At the end of the Second Age Sauron was left behind on Numenor when Ar-Pharazon and his armada sail to their destruction at Valinor. It is said that when Numenor was swallowed by the sea that Sauron went down with it, and that since then he was never again able to have a physical body. But some time later in the Battle of the Last Alliance Isildur cut the ring from his hand. Can anyone see what im getting at? My only guess is that he was CLOTHED in a physical form like the Nazgul were when hunting for the Ring. Also, Glorfindel was said to have died in the Silmarillion when he cast himself into abiss with the Balrog, yet he is in the Fellowship of the Ring and in the Appendicies he went to war with the Witch-King of Angmar only a year after the fall of the capital of Arnor, Fornost, where he made the prophesy. But NOWHERE can i find an explanation of this. Was there two Glorfindels? Did Mandos grant him a second life as he did for Beren and Luthien? I don't know, PLEASE TELL ME!!!

MallornLeaf · 07-15-2002, 09:02 PM

<font color="aqua">Hey NoldorKing! Welcome to the barrow downs. As far as Sauron goes, I don't ever remember it being said that he couln't take physical shape after that. perhaps it did, but I missed it. I will have to go back and check before I can give you a deffinate answer on that one. I know he deffinately COULD take physical shape, b/c he was able to decieve all the races of ME (except ofcourse, the elves), and also, as you said, Isuldur cut the ring from Sauron's finger.

<font color="white"> so basically, what I'm trying to say is this: Sauron WAS able to take physical shape after the fall of Numenor. I don't ever recall it being said that he couldn't.

<font color="aqua">You have not been the first to notice the two Glorfindels. No one knows for sure what Tolkien's intent was. It could have been the same person, or there could have been two Glorfindels. no one knows for sure, so choose your opinion on the matter and be happy!

Daniel Telcontar · 07-16-2002, 03:06 AM

I think you are refering to the quote saying that Sauron could never again assume a fair form, meaning he could not appear fair in the eyes of Men and Elves.
Also, there can only be one Glorfindel, as each elven name is special, and only one can use it. They don't give the same name to two elves. Tolkien forgot this, but instead of changing one of the two elves' name, he made an explanation about Glorfindel being reincarnated.

07-18-2002, 09:27 PM

thanks. id like to know where exactly i could find this explanation by Tolkien that you speak of. also, not long after i made that post i realized my mistake on the first question, which you also speak of; that Sauron could no longer take a form THAT WAS FAIR. i dont know where i got the idea that he couldnt take a PHYSICAL form. also, one of you said that Sauron decieved everyone but the elves, i think by that you must mean after the second age ended. cause during that age he did decieve the elves in Eregion, thus resulting in the Rings of Power.

07-15-2002, 08:35 PM	#1
NoldorKng Guest Posts: n/a	please tell me that i did not find a contradiction Im confused. At the end of the Second Age Sauron was left behind on Numenor when Ar-Pharazon and his armada sail to their destruction at Valinor. It is said that when Numenor was swallowed by the sea that Sauron went down with it, and that since then he was never again able to have a physical body. But some time later in the Battle of the Last Alliance Isildur cut the ring from his hand. Can anyone see what im getting at? My only guess is that he was CLOTHED in a physical form like the Nazgul were when hunting for the Ring. Also, Glorfindel was said to have died in the Silmarillion when he cast himself into abiss with the Balrog, yet he is in the Fellowship of the Ring and in the Appendicies he went to war with the Witch-King of Angmar only a year after the fall of the capital of Arnor, Fornost, where he made the prophesy. But NOWHERE can i find an explanation of this. Was there two Glorfindels? Did Mandos grant him a second life as he did for Beren and Luthien? I don't know, PLEASE TELL ME!!!

07-15-2002, 09:02 PM	#2
MallornLeaf Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: who cares? Posts: 76	<font color="aqua">Hey NoldorKing! Welcome to the barrow downs. As far as Sauron goes, I don't ever remember it being said that he couln't take physical shape after that. perhaps it did, but I missed it. I will have to go back and check before I can give you a deffinate answer on that one. I know he deffinately COULD take physical shape, b/c he was able to decieve all the races of ME (except ofcourse, the elves), and also, as you said, Isuldur cut the ring from Sauron's finger. <font color="white"> so basically, what I'm trying to say is this: Sauron WAS able to take physical shape after the fall of Numenor. I don't ever recall it being said that he couldn't. <font color="aqua">You have not been the first to notice the two Glorfindels. No one knows for sure what Tolkien's intent was. It could have been the same person, or there could have been two Glorfindels. no one knows for sure, so choose your opinion on the matter and be happy! __________________ ". . . All we must decide is what to do with the time that is given us." "I pass the test, I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

07-16-2002, 03:06 AM	#3
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	I think you are refering to the quote saying that Sauron could never again assume a fair form, meaning he could not appear fair in the eyes of Men and Elves. Also, there can only be one Glorfindel, as each elven name is special, and only one can use it. They don't give the same name to two elves. Tolkien forgot this, but instead of changing one of the two elves' name, he made an explanation about Glorfindel being reincarnated. __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

07-18-2002, 09:27 PM	#4
NoldorKng Guest Posts: n/a	thanks. id like to know where exactly i could find this explanation by Tolkien that you speak of. also, not long after i made that post i realized my mistake on the first question, which you also speak of; that Sauron could no longer take a form THAT WAS FAIR. i dont know where i got the idea that he couldnt take a PHYSICAL form. also, one of you said that Sauron decieved everyone but the elves, i think by that you must mean after the second age ended. cause during that age he did decieve the elves in Eregion, thus resulting in the Rings of Power.