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#1 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
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We’ve reached the last chapter of Book 4, which is also the last chapter of The Two Towers – congratulations and a big thanks to all who are still with us! It begins and ends in great suspense with Frodo’s desperate fate, though he himself remains passive throughout it, first presumed dead and then known to be only unconscious. As the title reveals, this is Sam’s chapter, showing his courage and determination, but also his limits.
Sam accomplishes something that no great warrior has ever done, wounding Shelob! He takes up the tokens of Frodo’s quest – first the sword, then uses the phial which he already carries, and finally the ring. Is there any significance to the fact that he did not attempt to take the mithril vest off his master? Again Galadriel is invoked – one of Tolkien’s Catholic revisions, perhaps, giving her more of the Virgin Mary’s function? In song, it is Varda who is called upon – both female – yet another indication of the importance of Mary in the Catholic church? I always find it interesting that a book normally thought to be rather patriarchal has its characters praying to females, rather than their male consorts/counterparts. It’s also interesting to see that the Phial is “interactive”, apparently responding to the person or situation in which it is used. What additional details do we learn about Shelob here, especially her weak spots? Sam reacts with grief, then anger, then despair. Then he makes his decision – was it the right one? Later on, he doesn’t think so, but what would have been different had he stayed with Frodo? Would he have been able to save him from captivity? He shows the truth in Gandalf’s words that there’s more to a hobbit than one first thinks, rising to greatness yet remaining humble. Quote:
What more do we notice about the effect of the Ring when he puts it on? We are introduced to two orc leaders, Gorbag and Shagrat – let’s discuss their conversations and what we deduce about orcs from them. Isn’t it funny that Gollum gets the same nickname from orcs that Sam gave him – Sneak?! The chapter (and book) ends with the ultimate cliff-hanger, a sentence that has become one of the best-known: Quote:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#2 | |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
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This is one of my favorite chapters.
![]() Following up on the discussion of Shelob's fear of the Phial as opposed to Ungoliant's hunger for the Silmarils, I wonder if this reflects the continued fall of Middle Earth; even evil beings sought light in the beginning. Now they have fallen further and no longer seek it. I also find it interesting that she is vulnerable through the eye, aka the window of the soul - not sure how to follow up on this just yet. Sam's reactions make some of the most moving portions in the book. I still find myself growing misty-eyed when I read this passage: Quote:
Finally, I had the cliffhanger experience when I first read this chapter. I had to take the books out of the library one at a time and The Return of the King was checked out when I was ready to pick it up! The few days I had to wait before finding out what happened next were indeed torturous. ![]() I hope this is coherent. I'm running on sleep-deprivation mode with lots of caffeine right now. That's never a good thing... |
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#3 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Even Mordorian orcs dislike being around the Nazgul. In fact, I detect some traces of Nazgul envy. The orcs don't like serving Sauron, but they are afraid of the Free Peoples as well. Gorbag also does not believe that Sauron pays enough attention to what his orcs try to tell him. Gorbag also wants to run off somewhere and Shagrat seems to have fond memories of the past when he was out on his own. One wonders if Sauron instituted an orcish draft of some sort... Sauron also apparently had his own version of the NKVD. Gorbag, at any rate, does not have much trust in the word of his superiors. Gorbag also seems to have a more talkative personality than Shagrat. He also seems the more intelligent of the two. He's the one who voices many of the ideas early in the dialogue and Shagrat just makes ambiguous remarks that seem to tend toward agreement. However, Shagrat is clearly no dummy. He is observant and knowledgeable, at least as far as the area of his own command is concerned. He seems to possess a rather practical mind. Shagrat is also rather prickly about his command, a trait he shares with Ugluk. Shagrat also may have what might be a rather sunny personality for an orc (har har). Notice how he accuses Gorbag of excessive pessimism and is determined to deal with what is under his control before he starts worrying about something else. Also note... Quote:
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#4 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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A single thought from one who hasn't posted on these threads before:
Isn't it a little interesting to note that even though Ungoliant and her descendants (Shelob) devour the light, that they must recoil at such baubles as the phial of Galadriel? Why do you suppose that happens? And I really do like the occurences that happen with the orcs. Not only as Kuruharan pointed out, Sauron has a physical body, Sauron doesn't have mind-boggling powers over all his orcs, because they don't all know what he knows and don't work together completely as a team (The conversations between Shagrat and Gorbag). bilbo_baggins |
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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SHELOB
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Tolkien makes it clear that Shelob is not simply a big spider - she is ‘an evil thing in spider form’. In an early draft for the story we find an interesting statement: Quote:
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More, hopefully, later. Finally for now though, a few things that struck me in my reading of HoME. First of all, there’s the interesting idea, which Tolkien rejected, of having Gollum lead the orcs to Frodo’s body, which made me think of the obvious parallell with Judas leading the soldiers to arrest Christ. I can’t help wondering to what extent, as the story became more ‘mythological’, as Good & evil became more & more ‘solidified’ & grounded in the story, whether Tolkien had increasingly to fight against it becoming ‘allegorical’. Would such a blatantly Judas-like role for Gollum have increased the Christ-like nature of Frodo? And a couple of questions: first, when Sam finds Frodo ‘dead’ he wishes to make a cairn over him, but can’t find enough stones. Quote:
Second: Have we here an early reference to Sanwe in the conversation between ‘Gorbag’ & ‘Shagrat’: Quote:
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#6 | |
Dead Serious
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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This chapter isn't pretty, but it's one of the best!
As the Hobbits manage to get into Mordor, which ought to be well guarded, we might assume that at Cirith Ungol the watch has not been properly maintained, but the Orcs are clearly still doing their job: Quote:
I like the conspiratorial talk between the Orc leaders of things having ‘slipped’ Quote:
Sauron has also made the error of focussing only on the attack on Minas Tirith: Quote:
There was an excellent example of the use of sanwe in chapter 8, in Frodo’s mental struggles with the Nazgul, and here the orcs talk of something similar. The rapid despatch of messages between Minas Morgul and Barad Dur could even be done in this way. Of course, it could be due to the use of palantiri which are kept hidden from the orcs, yet from what Gorbag says about the powers of the Nazgul it seems they have darker powers: Quote:
This brings to mind the chilling words of the WK to Eowyn: Quote:
What gives me the creeps is the thought that all the Nazgul must have left Minas Morgul, and yet in their absence, someone or something still remains there capable of taking command over the Orcs, and capable of listening and talking to Sauron. Whatever this thing is, it either has command over a palantir or strong skills of sanwe. Could it have something to do with the Silent Watchers mentioned by Gorbag? Here’s another thing: Quote:
This is the culmination of an excellent series of chapters. There is horror laid upon horror. We have a treacherous broken creature, a dangerous path, evil armies, mind reading wraiths, gangs of orcs, an insatiably hungry giant spider, and hints at spiritual horrors. I’m glad I first read this chapter when all the books were available as the cliffhanger would have been unbearable.
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#8 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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#9 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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#10 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Makes me wonder why Tolkien left this incident out of the final version. Would it have opened up too many questions? I know he had originally intended Sam to sing a song over Frodo's body, & I can see a reason for leaving that out, but in light of a recent thread on why there are no graveyards (etc) in the Shire (or at least there are none mentioned in the book) its interesting to speculate on why Tolkien left out this little 'ceremony'. Was it that this particular practice didn't fit in with what he 'knew' about Hobbits, being based on ideas about what happens to souls post mortem, or what? On the other hand, if Tolkien left the incident out for other reasons - pacing or whatnot - then can we assume that Hobbits did hold this belief about stones as 'place-markers' for the souls of the departed?
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#11 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
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(Study break
![]() Looking again at the idea that Sam wants to return and die, maybe he can't quite bring himself to go through with a final farewell ceremony until he is ready to join Frodo. I don't know if the atmosphere of the Shire that makes graveyards out of place there applies here since the specter of death has already intruded. Then again, it would complicate things to suddenly give the hobbits traditions regarding funerals that didn't reappear once the setting returned to the Shire. I wish I knew more about the evolution of this chapter - I haven't had a chance to read HoME yet. |
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#12 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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![]() I think that is a reasonable assumption. At least it was an idea in Tolkien's mind at some point.
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Illustrious Ulair
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Another post full of quotes I’m afraid...
Two incidents struck me, one in this chapter, one in the last. Both have to do with the Phial & its effect on those who wield it: Quote:
Tolkien comments on Elbereth in The Road Goes Ever On: Quote:
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(Deliberately being a bit provocative there, but you see where I’m going, I hope....) |
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#14 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Hmmm. I think I do see where you are going with that.
A friend once told me that the reason Frodo and Sam both called on Elvish incantations was because the ones that they used were ones that struck into the heart of goodness, ad infinitum de nauseam. (to infinity of nausea) The person didn't understand the Elvish... I think that it is some good force working here, at the very least opening words and ideas to the Hobbits, if not actually using their minds. Is it Galadriel? I can't even begin to assume here, so all I know is that the Good forces - whoever they may be - allowed power, true power, that was backed with forces greater than the enshrouding darkness, was brought into play by the humble halflings. Why? bilbo_baggins |
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#15 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Thinking more about this I wonder if Tolkien is referring to 'speaking in tongues' - specifically xenoglossia (as opposed to Glosssolalia:
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#16 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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...but taking a page from the "It was the Ring that spoke to Gollum" book, could this be the Phial speaking?
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#17 |
Illustrious Ulair
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But is the motivation of who/whatever is speaking/acting through Frodo & Sam to save them from Shelob or is it to increase the chances of the Quest succeeding & the Ring being destroyed? Are their conscious minds/wills (temporarily) overthrown in order to save their lives or in order to help the Quest? The former could be seen as acceptable, even though the Hobbits don't consent to this loss of control - it just happens to them. The latter seems more suspect, as the Hobbits would be being treated as little more than pawns, as a means to an end....
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#18 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Just to set a tone for my response allow me to say that I disagree with the assessment that desiring the completion of the quest is somehow seedier than saving their lives. Also, I think that it is possible (even vitally necessary) to desire both at once. I hope this preface serves to clarify my response. I hope I will be able to explain myself adequately below.
First, I trust we can agree that the Power of Good places value on the lives of Frodo and Sam because the Power of Good values life as being inherently valuable. That being said, I’m going to say something that may sound a trifle harsh. Frodo and Sam were the chosen tools to complete a task that is also inherently valuable to the Power of Good. Frodo was chosen to bear the Ring and I think it is safe to say that Sam was chosen to accompany and assist him. This task involving the freedom of the living beings in the world and involving who was going to be given the divine honor entangles the fate of myriads more beings than Frodo and Sam. Their status as “pawns” actually armors them with more value to the Power of Good because they are the way to achieving an aim that is also inherently good. Quote:
Also notice the difference here between Sauron and Gandalf (and ultimately Eru). Sauron sends the Nazgul to find the Ring, beings he tricked and has utterly enslaved to his will. Gandalf, on the other hand, persuades Frodo to go and Sam goes for love of Frodo. Frodo accepts the burden of his own will where the Nazgul fulfill their task without regard to whatever will they may or may not have had in the matter. That Fordo earnestly attempted to get as far as he had (up to that point) I think is a powerful aid to consent when the Power of Good desired to intervene to both save their lives and ensure the continuation of the Quest. Also notice the, well, almost providential manner in which this whole business falls out. Frodo and Sam were trapped between two large parties of orcs in unfamiliar territory with little potential for cover. They had One Ring to split between them. Chances are, had Frodo escaped Shelob unscathed, one or the other of them would have been spotted (whichever didn’t have the Ring obviously) and the Quest would have been in deep doo-doo. Instead, Frodo is poisoned and taken prisoner and Sam escapes through use of the Ring. However, Frodo is taken in the direction he was intending to go, into Mordor. Through the loot the orcs find on his body, the garrison of Cirith Ungol is destroyed, which would have been a terribly difficult obstacle for Frodo and Sam to get past had things gone otherwise. Frodo and Sam may have gotten through Cirith Ungol and into Mordor in the only manner possible.
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#19 | |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
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#20 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Kuruharan, I see what you mean, & I may have overstated the case - though I think there is a case to be made. Remembering Frodo on Amon Hen, caught between the Eye & the Voice, & eventually breaking through & surfacing - & feeling himself to be 'neither the Eye nor the Voice' - or something like that, I wonder about his freedom once he had accepted the task, & whether the powers that be took that into account. Did he have any freedom as far as they were concerned. I suppose one could ask whether he became not only their 'pawn' but rather the victim of 'fate', to be used for the greater 'good'. I wonder what this tells us about Tolkien's own attitude to the life & purpose of the individual. Perhaps we see Frodo's ultimate 'failure' again foreshadowed here - finally he is overwhelmed by an external power too great to be withstood. His selfhood is gradually broken down by these external powers making use of him for this 'greater good'. Yes, he agreed to take the Ring to the Fire, but did he agree in full knowledge of what he would become? He agreed to be an actor in the cosmic drama, but not a pawn in the 'game'.
But to move on... Sam's relationship to Frodo is spelled out most strongly in this chapter. His defence of Frodo is likened to a creature defending its mate. He 'looks back' to where his life 'fell into ruin'. He desires, if he achieves the Quest, to return & die by his master. It seems Sam is like a lost soul once Frodo is gone & he has no thought of home, of Rosie, of the future. Frodo is the whole purpose of his existence & without him Sam feels life, existence, has no purpose. Even if he manages to destroy the Ring there will be no point in living. What does this tell us about the difference between Sam & those 'powers' that are using him & Frodo? These Elves & Wizards seem to lack Sam's simple huma compassion. Perhaps this shows us why it is time for Men to take over & those powers to pass away. Yes, they will take the magic away with them, & everything will become mundane. The bright, sharp colours, tastes, smells, the extremes of light & dark, will pass from the world, but the simple love of one person for another will remain, even flourish, without all that. Sam is of the simple good green earth - its significant that he is a gardener not a 'wizard or a warrior'. He earths the Story & proclaims that simple humanity is superior to 'Fantasy'. Sam's simple love of his master is the higher virtue. Finally, to your earlier jokey(?) comment: Quote:
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#21 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Not all the powers working on him were working for the greater good. I still think that his acceptance of the Quest implies a degree of consent to being temporarily dominated by things like the Phial if his life and Quest were in jeopardy. I sense much potential for discussion fodder in the Mount Doom chapter. Quote:
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#22 | |||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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As to how the Phial works, I have to admit I'm thinking along the lines of Sanwe again. ![]() Is it good that Good forces have such an influence on mortals? Frodo and Sam have accepted the challenge of taking this burden to Mount Doom, and yet it is also semeingly fated that they should have to do this. I like to think of them as akin to Aragorn, who also is fated to take on a burden, and who like the Hobbits accepts his burden come what may. In fact, are many of the characters we meet in LotR truly free? Many of them seem to be fated to take their part in particular circumstances. Their freedom comes in with how they deal with the situations they are thrust into. Going back again to what I said about the destruction of evil, it cannot be defeated if it is just left alone, nor can any of the characters we meet play their parts if they refuse to take part in the first place. I think that this is part of the nature of 'stories'. What would be the point of reading about an Eowyn who made the choice of stopping home in Edoras? Or a Sam who did not snoop at open windows? Quote:
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#23 | ||
Dead Serious
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And, to quote Gorbag in this chapter: Quote:
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#24 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Good also has fewer tools at its disposal since deception and trickery are out of its arsenal. However, this may be only a short term disadvantage.
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#25 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Regarding the self-defeating tendency of evil (in Middle earth at least), this from Brian Rosebury's book - Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon :
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#26 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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Let me begin by thanking Estelyn for taking the time to start this thread even in the midst of her computer woes! Well might you have said, "Well, I'm back" because you are as faithful as Sam, Ghosted Princess!
I have a few points to offer which differ slightly from the topic developed here. I hope I have let that topic develop before I throw some other irons in the fire. With Fordim being absent so much from the forum, I think I am safe to offer these ideas without having Freud thrown back at me! ![]() The first point I noticed is how this chapter parallels the chapter which began The Two Towers, "The Departure of Boromir." In that early chapter it is Merry and Pippin who are dragged away by orcs; here it is Frodo himself. But what I find particularly interesting is how Aragorn's quandry is echoed by Sam's, not only in word but in rhetoric as well, for both heroes work through their decision by a kind of internal dialogue. Quote:
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Or at least, we hope it is the right decision. No Hollywood cliff hanger in the old serials was more poignant than this break before the next chapter. I am called away. My other observations must await a later post.
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#27 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Yet another cliff hanger?
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#28 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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The other point I want to raise about this chapter was prompted by my recent reading of the Narnia series, and thoughts about Lewis' White Witch. Clearly, our two Inklings had in mind ages-old stories about primitive evil, an evil which is gendered, a specifically female evil. I think Tolkien's use of the traditional mythology works better than Lewis' because Tolkien specifically did not give his evil goddess human form, but bestialised her. Thinking about Joseph Campbell's monomyth and the various stages the hero must endure also got me thinking about this. We all know by now, I think, how in his later years Tolkien attempted "consciously so in the revision" to cast Galadriel as Mary, the spotless woman who redeems the sins of Eve, Adam's wife. Eve, however, as not Adam's first wife. There are extant references in old mythologies, Talmudic lore, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and scattered medieval texts to a first wife (plus a naming in Isaiah), made possible by the confusion over the two creation stories in Genesis. This first wife was not formed out of Adam's rib, but in the same manner as Adam. Not from dust, though, but out of filth and sediment. Her name is Lilith, which some say derives from the Babylonian word lilitu, female demon or wind or Hebrew for 'night.' In Arab folkore, she is a hairy night monster. Lilith was more disobedient than Eve. According to the stories, she refused Adam's demand that she take the supine position in sexual intercourse and in a huff of disagreement, left Adam to dwell with demons and monsters in The Red Sea, (sounds like an early Cannes beach scene) where she produced offspring at a startling rate (hundreds and hundreds). These nasty beings, lilin, were said to 'have their way with' sleeping men at night and also to kill newborns--the creatures get mixed in with tales of succuba. Although three angels were sent to Lilith asking her to return to Adam, she refused and instead said she would prey upon the descendents of Adam and Eve forever. Lilith apparently was not included in the apple rap which brought death into the world. You can see where I am going with this, can't you? (Actually, I am curious why davem hasn't raised this, for with his love of mythology I'm sure he knows the legends.) I have no idea if Tolkien knew these legends. Yet the similarities to his Shelob are fascinating. The ancient legends focus upon the ugliness, stench, depravity and concupiscence of the foul female with her countless spawn. Even the manner of Sam's defeat of Shelob fits the legend, for Shelob does herself in by taking the superior position and inflicting the prick of the blade upon herself. And I would argue that the sexual interpretation is suggested by the way Tolkien describes Sam's rage of defense for Frodo and the way Tolkien gives Shelob's point of view. Quote:
One last point in this very long post! And I will write it with economy. Joseph Campbell's monomyth in The Hero with a Thousand Faces suggests that the hero must past through thresholds between the world of his previous life and the darkness where he must defeat the forces of evil. Campbell describes clearly that passing over the threshold takes the hero into the realm of darkness. The Two Towers is bookmarked by threshold experiences. It opens with the crossing over of the Anduin, a river being a major symbol in the myths Campbell discusses for the threshold, and the death of Boromir and Aragorn's great dilemma and confusion over his leadership. It closes with this terrible passage through the dark tunnels of the mountains and a pseudo-death of Frodo. Can any of us not surmise that the Land of Shadow awaits Sam and Frodo? I rest. No cliff hander this time, although perhaps I have lobbed a few explosives.
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#29 | ||
Itinerant Songster
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![]() Your post was cause for me to change my sig. Sorry if I'm repeating what others have said, since Lal's is the last post I've read so far, but there is one way that Evil can win over Good, and that is for Good to succumb to such vices as cowardice, pride, vanity, chosen ignorance; in a phrase, to refuse to do what it should when called upon. Authorial sovereignty? Into the big hole we go.... Quote:
The sexual undertones of Shelob's defeat at Sam's hands was not lost on me this time around. I found it interesting that our little hero has not lost his "sting". But where is Gollum? Hiding? Fallen? Why is he not anywhere to be found at this point, considering that he shows up again later? Last edited by littlemanpoet; 05-14-2005 at 10:25 AM. |
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#30 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Well, yeah, but as Freud is supposed to have said, 'Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.'...
One could see phallic symbolism in Sam using a sword to pierce Shelob, but in that world what other kind of weapon would he use? A spear, an arrow? In other words, there are very few ways that Sam could have seen off Shelob that couldn't be interpreted 'sexually'. I suppose he could have tried setting her on fire... ![]() Shelob is a force of evil & as Rosebury has pointed out it is necessary that evil be shown to carry the seeds of its own destruction - it is not an equal & opposite force to good, but rather a perversion of it without the power to sustain itself. Perhaps Freud has gotten us all seeing things which aren't always there. Or to put it another way, sometimes stabbing a giant spider is just stabbing a giant spider... |
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#31 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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#32 |
Cryptic Aura
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You know, I specifically did not refer to Freud in my post because 1) I don't place much value in his kind of psychoanalytic psychology and 2) I don't think he has the final word on archetypes and 3)my argument was based on other criteria.
So, as a matter of fact, davem and Kuruharan, whether you are dismissive of the suggestion simply because you seem to dislike Freudian interpretations is irrelevant because it does not address the nature of my argument. I agree with you that many forms of supposedly Freudian symbolism is flimsy, particularly that which jumps on a supposed applicability without considering the context. Meaning accrues not from dictionary definitions but from the basic way we make sense of language--from decoding the likeliest of possible meanings, for example: we make inference from the co-text, from how the words around a word suit and fit. Words of a feather fly together, you might say. Consider this sentence: Father fell out of a tree and broke a limb. 'tree' and 'limb' belong to the 'tree' designation. 'fell', 'broke' and 'limb' belong to the 'bone injury' designation. Which designation does 'limb' belong to? It is ambiguous. This multiple desingation, the resonance and ambiguity, is what makes literary language in particular so rich with reflected meaning. (Comedy routines are of course notorious for exploiting this kind of ambiguity.) This power of designation or relationship is build on probablity, of course, but its power is determined by its uniqueness. Clichés have an inevitable collocation: bite the dust, fall in love, etc. But where collocations are not expected or habitual--well, there lies the kind of improbability upon whick literary meaning is built. This collocation begins with the line about Sam defending Frodo as his "fallen mate", and continues through 'horn', 'the arches of her legs', the 'splaying legs'. Consider other meanings of 'impudent'--not just boldness, but also 'lack of modesty, shamelessness.' It would be possible to write this passage with other words which don't tend towards this reflected meaning. But lexis is not the only argument. Shelob shares many physical charactertistics with the demon Lilith: stench, appetite, lust and lack of chastity in its wider and older form, number of offspring, cruelty. Lilith was said to murder infants and Jewish folklore included a number of amulets and sayings said to protect infant males from her in the days before the ritual of circumcision. What is the passive Frodo here but an infant swaddled in her web? (This, I admit, might be stretching things a bit.) Why would both Tolkien and Lewis choose to depict a primeval force of evil as female? (Fifty-fifty, I guess, eh?) What might their similar ideas have been touching upon or drawn from? Perhaps ideology might also play a part in interpretation here. Some might not be familiar with or might not accept the existence of a primitive form of evil in female form in the Christian tradition, a form which was overcome by patriarchial monotheism. When Mary is enthroned on a pedestal of virtue and honour, she overcomes earlier denigrating portrayals of the female aspect. It is almost a manichean kind of split. It makes perfect sense to me to have a repulsive female evil thwarted by the power of Galadriel--mythologic sense. How many mythologies contain stories of how female deities lost power and influence to male deities? Why wouldn't that aspect of mythologies be reflected in Tolkien's subcreation? If Goldberry can be related to celtic water spirits (as davem has pointed out), why is this reworking of old legend not possible? And none of this in any way negates the concept that evil contains the seeds of its own downfall (no pun intended), a point which I have argued elsewhere here on the Downs some time ago. So, you see, it is not a smoking cigar, but many pieces to a puzzle.
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#33 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Hey -- you want Freud? What about the act of thrusting a finger into a Ring? Or how about a race of people who live in womb-like holes in the ground?
"Absent" indeed! Lurking, m'dearies, lurking.
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#34 |
Illustrious Ulair
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If I have a problem with this approach it is that it takes us out of Middle earth into a mythology of the primary world. I think there is another kind of mythological link being made here, & it is one that keeps us firmly within the secondary world.
In this episode I can't help thinking that Tolkien, having just mentioned Turin, wants the reader to be reminded of the way he killed Glaurung - remember, he hoped to see the Silmarillion published - preferably alongside LotR. Both monsters are 'finished off' by being stabbed in in the belly from beneath by a mortal hero with an Elven blade. Even if Tolkien had the story of Lilith in the back of his mind we mustn't, or we'll be dragged out of Middle-earth into the realm of comparative mythology or worse ![]() |
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#35 | ||
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#36 | ||||
Cryptic Aura
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#37 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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Once we step outside the secondary world we can analyse it all as much as we want - though in that case we are doing what Tolkien condemned - breaking a thing to find out what it is made of, dismantling the tower to find out wherre the stones originally came from. This is the real 'Freudian' approach which we're all (myself as much as, or even more than, others, I sometimes feel) in danger of falling into. The Freudian approach is essentially backward looking, asking 'what caused this, what is this made of?' The alternative, which I suppose we can call the 'Jungian' approach, is to ask 'What is this for? 'Where is this going?' rather than 'Where did this come from?' As for the Galadriel/Mary connection, it is in there - quite blatantly some would say in the later writings - but its not there so strongly that it can't be ignored by those who want to, & its not necessary to know anything about the Virgin Mary in order to understand the character & role of Galadriel. We may learn a lot about Tolkien by bringing Mary into our reading, but we won't learn much about Middle earth. We won't actually learn that much about Galadriel, either. Letter 144: Quote:
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#38 | |
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First of all, what is this 'breaking the spell' and who says Shelob should only be a 'an evil thing in spider form'? And who says this approach is merely an archeology to determine original intent? It seems to me impossible to dictate a right way and a wrong way of reading, first of all. Yes, some books do have ways to be read which are more rewarding than others, and some readings do become dead ends, but all in all reading is a creative process as well as writing, and why dictate that some things must be held off? Why must the right reading be a naive or virginal always 'first' reading that denies any other reading experience? Possibly I put this entire discussion at odds with my joking reference to Fordim and his anti-Freudian take. (Hmm. Fordim, Freudim. ![]() What matters to me is the possibilities for plenitude which the text holds out. I cannot separate Tolkien's wonderful depiction of Shelob from my knowlege of other reading: too many points are similar for there not to be some fruitful going forth here. I have already hinted at where my reading goes. The text, for me, enacts a story as old as the earliest narratives. That story bears upon the roles of characters here, especially Galadriel, Eowyn, Arwen, but not them alone. I leave it now for others to read my text with plenitude.
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#39 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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I suppose in a way I'm 'arguing' in order to keep the debate going - I think this chapter thread alreay has over three times the number of posts the previous one got.
I don't want to imply that your approach is 'wrong' in any objective sense. I can see 'external' references which were probably put in deliberately by Tolkien - the line 'His weariness was growing but his will hardened all the more.' does seem to echo the famous lines from the Battle of Maldon:"Heart shall be harder, strength the keener, spirit shall be the stronger, as our might lessens." I suspect Tolkien was deliberately referencing this verse, & would have expected any reader who knew the Anglo-Saxon poem to pick up on this. If he was aware of the Lilith legend maybe that was also in his mind, but I see little connection between Lilith & Shelob in their backstories, only a vague similarity in the way they are described. If you make that connection that says more about you than about anything Tolkien was doing, consciously or unconsciously. As we see with some of the 19th century mythographers, virtually any myth can be reduced to a 'solar' myth (I'm again influenced by something Flieger has referenced in her latest book!). I think we have to distingiush between what was in the author's mind (whether he or she was aware of it or not) & what is in our minds as we read. We may bring things to the our reading of the text - its probably inevitable that we do - but we have to keep those things seperate from what the author put in there. Yet Quote:
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#40 |
Riveting Ribbiter
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I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but what about the Galadriel/Shelob opposite pairing? Galadriel, as the lady of light, can be taken as the exact opposite of Shelob and her darkness (both female!). That could shed some "light" on Shelob's fear of the Phial and Galadriel over Earendil - it brings the two opposite halves of the pair into direct conflict. In the same way, it puts another twist on the idea that Galadriel is working through Frodo and Sam when they break into Elvish - again, are we actually seeing the opposites thrown into direct contrast?
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