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#1 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 156
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Gondor or Arnor?
My son asked me who was stronger militarily at their peak, Gondor or Arnor, and I could not give him an answer because I don't know. Did Tolkien give us the answer? or at least some hints?
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“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food...I am fond of mushrooms.” -J.R.R Tolkien |
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#2 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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This ought probably to be moved to The Books.
I don't recall any numerical comparison between the two kingdoms. However, I think Arnor was probably the stronger at the beginning. For one thing, Arnor was the home of Elendil, and I would think a majority of the escapees from Númenor would have wanted to be with him. Also, Arnor was far from Mordor, and it would make sense for it to be the main training and marshaling area of the army. It would seem that Arnor took the brunt of casualties in the Last Alliance, and that appears to have set it behind Gondor from that point. The ruinous civil war between Arthedain, Rhudaur, and Cardolan then weakened the divided kingdom enough to allow the Witch-king to finish it off.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#3 |
Dead Serious
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On the contrary, other than maaaaaybe around the time of the Last Alliance, I've always imagined Gondor as the larger force. Some of this is no doubt that it is the Byzantium to Arnor's Rome. Some of it is that Arnor was founded by four ships, Gondor by five.
Obviously, going off the ships is probably not indicative of the relative size of the realms, which mut have been substantially based, population-wise, off the pre-existing colonies, but that's actually the strongest argument I have: Gondor has Pelargir, which is said to be the greatest haven of the Faithful, whereas Arnor has, at most, Tharbad. And looking at the population centres of the realms, Gondor has four clear cities: Osgiliath, Minas Anor, Minas Ithil, and Pelargir. Arnor has two: Annúminas and Fornost (and you could convince me that Fornost was rather minor until the fall of Annúminas). Thus, although I admit it's more inference than statement, I would say that Gondor was always slightly larger (more populous = more militarily powerful), even if Arnor was preeminent as the seat of Elendil. Then, beyond that, R.R.J.'s son asked about them "at their peak," and this is clearly Gondor, which waxed ca. Atanatar Alcarin's reign to almost the glory of Númenor (we're told as much in Appendix A, and ruled from Minihiriath to Umbar to the Sea of Rhûn. And part of the reason for that is Gondor's dominant navy, something Arnor is barely suggested as even having.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
Last edited by Formendacil; 02-05-2022 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Spelling |
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#4 | |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 156
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Quote:
Interesting. However, it could be that because Gondor was near Mordor, it was deemed more vital to keep a watch on the dark land. Thanks for your comments.
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“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food...I am fond of mushrooms.” -J.R.R Tolkien |
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#5 | |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 156
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Just wondering, does Akallabêth record the number of ships to each region?
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“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food...I am fond of mushrooms.” -J.R.R Tolkien |
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#6 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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If we're splitting 'heirs' though ( ![]()
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#7 | |
Dead Serious
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And Inziladun is right that we don't know the details of the ships: Elendil COULD have four massive flagships, Isildur three sloops, and Anárion two dinghies... but I assume comparable sizes. And even if they were as large as any sailing ships have ever been, I also still assume most of the population that founded the realms in Exile was already in Exile. There just isn't enough time before the Last Alliance to have armies at the right scale (remember it's BIGGER than the War of the Ring militarily) be descended primarily from nine ships.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#8 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 156
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Good stuff, TY
__________________
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food...I am fond of mushrooms.” -J.R.R Tolkien |
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#9 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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It's Akallabeth:
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(Maybe they were intended mostly to watch Mordor? With the Osgiliath-stone in control, and the other three potentially roving about as needed? Battlefield palantiri is an amusing notion. ^_^) hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#10 | |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 156
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Once more, great insight. TY.
__________________
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food...I am fond of mushrooms.” -J.R.R Tolkien |
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