LotR1-FotR-Seq11

[alatar]

Who would not, finding way, break loose from hell,… boldly venture to whatever place Farthest from pain? – Milton

The Nine Walkers approach the Mines of Moria. There's that bridge-looking thing in the background that serves some purpose - bridge? Aqueduct? I'm not sure. Gandalf pulls Frodo aside, feigning the need for help, and has a private chat with him. Gandalf first asks Frodo of his shoulder, and I wonder if this is to remind us of his ordeal on Weathertop. Then he's asked of the Ring.

Gandalf then tells Frodo that the Ring's power is growing, and so we can assume that Gandalf, too, senses something. Frodo's told that he's now an "evil magnet," and so will attract all malevolence, both great and small, from without and within the Fellowship, and so should take care.

When Gandalf says, "and from within" some human walks by. Wonder who that could have been? Frodo is told to trust himself, and this may be a signal from Gandalf that soon he will not be part of the Fellowship. This is followed by more dialogue straight from the books, and it's great to hear. And just whom hasn't Gandalf been tested against? And is there some greater power of good that can be of some assistance?

Gimli gasps and exclaims that they have found the walls of Moria. And there's the Path of Moria. And the coffee shop of Moria...

With the mood music pumping up, I was expecting to see something, well, a little more amazing. But that's me.

Now, it's nice to hear Gimli explain dwarven architecture and building codes, but why does he tap the wall? Surely he's just taking some pleasure in the sound of the stone and not tapping for some indication of the Door. I mean, hey, this is the Hollin Gate in Eregion, and there was bound to be some map that showed this in Imladris.

Legolas snips at dwarven doors while Gimli just grumbles and bites his tongue. Nice way to show the sundering of these two races.

Frodo again puts his foot in it and steps in the Pond of Moria. He is taken aback by his foot wetting and either didn't like the temperature or just got some foreboding of evil. If he did, it's a wonder that Legolas' spider sense didn't tingle.

And now we're at the Gate. Pretty famous scene, as I think that it made more than a few book covers. Gandalf examines the doorway, and either calls on starlight/moonlight to appear or is just very lucky. Anyway, the outline of the door appears.

We now await the ever-wise Gandalf, former walker through the Gap of Rohan, to open the door with the magic word. "Abracadabra!"

Merry and Pippin nod in agreement as Gandalf starts shouting out some words. If you needed an indication that something was going to go sour, then look for these two to be on board. Now, surely Gandalf fails and needs to find the right word, and some of the Fellowship may start to doubt their erring leader (or is that Frodo?), but to have Gandalf manhandling the doors?

Pip, as expected, interjects and is scolded by Gandalf. Loved that!

While Gandalf reads the phone book to the Door, the others prepare for the journey in the dark. We get to see Bill the pony, and Sam's compassion for this beast of burden. Aragorn reassures Sam that Bill will be okay. Note that PJ and the ilk wanted to kill Bill via the Watcher, but thought the better of it - thankfully. Merry and Pippin toss rocks into the pool until their foolishness is cut short by Aragorn. With Fellowship members like these...

And I just love when Gandalf throws his staff to the ground and sits, discouraged that he'd made no progress. Now, I'm okay with this presentation of the nonperfect wizard.

Frodo, our leader or at least the one with "the luck," steps up and solves the riddle. PJ states that he wanted Frodo to do this instead of Merry to keep Frodo in the story. I'm okay with that change.

The friendly doors open while behind the onlookers the pool begins experiencing indigestion. They enter the mine as Gandalf lights the way using his staff add-on rock of light attachment. Nice that his magic was underdone, so to speak. Gimli, satisfied with expounding on dwarven entranceways, begins rattling on about the spread at the Buffet of Moria. Like if the place were open there'd be a door warder or something. Or at least someone collecting tolls for tours.

Hey, what's that's crunching sound? What could be crackling under foot? Boromir clues us that this is no mine but a mausoleum. They make ready to fight, luckily enough as we soon shall see, but no orcs are coming at this time. Boromir again states that they should try the Gap of Rohan.

Suddenly Frodo goes floorward and is dragged to the pool. Sam's quick intervention beats off the tentacle. Or not. Whiny Frodo now goes skyward. Sure, if I were hanging by my leg over a dirty pool of water (assuming that this isn't Fear Factor and money isn't involved), and some creature head is going to eat me, I would whine too. But it just adds to the perceived weakness of the Frodo movie character that I just didn't get from the books. It might be me, or others also see Frodo so weakened and unheroic.

Aragorn and Boromir start chopping the tentacles like so much bamboo, and Frodo drops into Aragorn's arms like a new babe. Legolas begins to show the marks-elf-ship for which he will become famous and one-dimensional. Gandalf seizes the moment and bamboozles them into the mines before anything thinks otherwise. Out of the frying pan into the mines...

Darkness!

Gandalf again brings forth light, and it is interesting that this time that he taps his staff on the floor twice. Some secret signal, or tolling his and another maia's doom? And to further lighten everyone's spirits, like a draught of anti-miruvor, Gandalf states that there is more than orcs that go bump in the dark.

I just love when Gandalf says that he hopes that their journey goes unnoticed. Wasn't that right from the book? We then see the expanse of the mines, and see that not only is Moria the Khazad-dûm, city of dwarves, but also a real mithril mine. We learn the price of Frodo's mithril coat.

Now, the stair scene is interesting. Why build a stair with a parallel ceiling? It is just an odd looking place to me. Gandalf reaches the three passages, and says one of my favorite lines, "I have no memory of this place." I just love to come into work every Monday morning and, mimicking Gandalf as best I can, say the same thing. Never get tired of it, though surely my coworkers do. Gandalf sits alone and ponders the path while the hobbits quip and quibble about the wizard.

Frodo notices that they are being pursued. And we learn that it's Gollum, that he escaped or was sent from Mordor, and that the Ring attracts him. We learn of the difference between Sméagol and Bilbo, where one started his stewardship of the ring with pity. Gandalf again quotes Tolkien regarding dealing out death and life, and it's all good stuff. And though I love the lines, I assume that this sentiment doesn't apply to orcs, whose carcasses you should pile up by the thousands.

We get more words right from the pages of FotR. Gollum has a bit to play, but to what end? Then Frodo asks, "why me?" I just love this part, and though not shooting/car chase-crash exciting, it's really profound and an enjoyable moment in an otherwise action flick. Think that this moment was captured in poster form, and was pushed after the September 11 terrorist attacks in the United States. People had the same questions as did Frodo, and that made this moment all the more poignant.

How many times have you asked yourself, "why me, why now? Let this cup pass from me..."

Gandalf answers Frodo and us.

DEAL!

The fact that Frodo was 'meant' to bear the Ring doesn't encourage me. Is everything predetermined? Is this a reply? He still has to play out the game, even if he were meant to fall down in the snow.

Gandalf, having cleared his mind, and possibly his nostrils, sniffs out the right path. I like when Gandalf is portrayed as this wise and gentle leader, and think that PJ gets this part of the character just so right.

Next it's on to the Chamber of Mazarbul. Note that the music here is just excellent. Gandalf shows off the immense columns of the large room. Why dwarves build such large rooms is beyond me, as many of their enemies such as Dragons and other such dwarf banes would be a bit hampered by ceilings of 2 meters or so.

Sam's exclamation, though a quote from the book, is just so misplaced here. Wow! Big stone pillars. I'd prefer that the comment be used when Gandalf really shows some of his real powers, but...oh well.

Gimli runs off at the sight of a tomb, and is saddened by what he reads there. Watch and you'll see a neat ability of dwarves, which is to be able to move back and forth on their knees. At one moment, Gimli's head is a foot or two away from Balin's tomb, the next; he's close enough to bop his metal helm against it. Odd tricksy folk, these dwarves.

Gandalf begins to read the account, somewhat abridged, of Balin's kin. Drums, drums in the deep. Pip sets up to do what he does best. Though I watched this scene a 1000 times via the trailer, I still just love it.

Anyway, Pip just can't help himself and makes a racket. Suddenly something's awakened. Why we see parts of Moria from which it would take much time to travel, I don't know, but the suspense truly gets thick. Thanks Pip.

And now for the fun...let the games begin! PJ does these next few moments well.

Boromir checks the passage and is almost shot. It's comical in a well-done sort of way when he explains that a cave troll has come. Too funny. The door is barred, yet the attackers are breaking through. Arrows fly into the openings, yet the orcs are still coming. The hobbits suddenly are really afraid, and me for them too. This is serious business, and just what will happen? Frodo looks the most panicked.

At least String glows appropriately but as the FotR movie budget was tight, there was only enough for one blue-glowing sword.

What the hay is Gimli doing? I'm no expert on dwarven customs, but standing on a tomb? Besides the possible desecration issues, doesn't it set him over his attackers to the point where he may be disadvantaged? What was the thinking here? Was it to get the smaller Gimli up into the shot so that we could see him when he delivers his battle dialogue?

I would have had him say, "Come get some!" as a nod to game-playing fans.

Did you see Boromir twirl his sword in anticipation or anxiousness? It's little things like that that make the movie more real. Can't remember the exact wording, but the attack was fierce but the defense was hot. You see the words here. PJ did well.

After the initial melee the wizard and hobbits enter the fray. Aragorn, like his wraith kin, takes a head. Just what is it with Númenóreans? Enter the troll. Sam almost gets smashed, but luckily he runs under the clumsy troll. Boromir and Aragorn keep Sam from being squashed, yet pay for their assistance. Boromir gathers his wits too slowly and is almost killed, but Aragorn saves him too. That nod is a bit too much for the scene, as we have to assume that no one is swinging anything at Aragorn's head while he gets his chit for the help. Nice throw, just like when he threw the torch at Weathertop.

Gimli gets to dance with the troll, and so we get a little humor as the troll helps Gimli's body count. We see that not only can Legolas fight with a knife, but also he can shoot two arrows at once. And he looks great doing it too. The chain swung by the troll helps the CG Legolas shoot it in the head. Sam finds a new use for his sausage pan, and this is okay, as I don't expect this farm boy to become a warrior all in one day. Frodo plays some hide-and-seek with the troll - that's what happens when you're an evil magnet - then he is caught and dragged. But what's this? Frodo, calling to Aragorn as expected, actually attacks the troll with his sword! Truly unbelievable. And to continue the disbelief, he goes to save Aragorn. I'm starting to like this Frodo.

Too late. He's skewered like a wild boar and will surely die.

I'll just have to send flowers .

CG Merry and Pippin start to dance on the troll's head, and that's a bit odd and a little icky. Everyone, after a short pause, turns the hacking up a level, and the orcs are chopped up decisively while Frodo lays face down. Such a tragic end to such a spirited young fellow...

Now this next bit goes on too long. The hacking at the troll, now alone, is disturbing, and when Legolas finally delivers the death blow, the moan is just saddening. My children feel bad for the troll by this time, and I always say that he's just tired and so is sleeping. Sorry about those arrows in the mouth, big guy.

At least Pippin gets tossed on the floor.

But what's this? Frodo lives! He's alive, and it's all due to body armor of the mithril type.

Before we have too much time to reflect on mithril gifts, it's now a race to the Bridge. Orcs appear like roaches (intentional) and even clamor from the ceiling - hey, if bugs can do it, so can PJ's Morian orcs. I accept the difference in interpretation and understand poetic license, but I still don’t like it. Why not have them fly, like monkeys? perhaps?

The troop is surrounded, and here's where I'd like to see some magic from Gandalf that would put words in Sam's mouth, but it's not to be. Gimli grunts, and this is meant to be funny as the orcs, after a pause, begin to retreat. It's ill-timed in that Gimli's exclamation doesn't cause the retreat, and so obviously - not even for a minute did I think that it was the dwarf - something else has the orcs running scared.

Gandalf feels it before anyone, even the elf, sees the new danger. Oi! Oi! A balrog, a balrog of Morgoth is come! Now this foe beyond all of the Fellowship (save one, I believe) begins its pursuit. To drive the intruders from Moria? Or to capture the Ring for Saruman…or that other fingerless dude? Or to take the Ring for its own? We’ll never know.

By the way, just how does Gandalf know about such things? I take that Gandalf’s squinched face means that the balrog is present more than just physically.

Anyway, they make for the Bridge. Boromir almost falls off the landing, and luckily Legolas is there to catch him. Orlando said something about hurting himself the many times that he pulled Sean back, but in all it looked like they were having fun. Aragorn and Gandalf scuff it up a bit, and I’m not sure why. Does Aragorn think that a well-placed snowball will kill the balrog? No clue here.

So we get the Stairs of Moria. PJ goes on and on about how someone developed a few lines of text into an entire Indiana Jones-like movie. Just great. A balrog in pursuit just ain’t enough to keep an audience interested these days.

Oi! Oi! Steps, Steps of Morgoth are here!

The CG characters proceed carefully yet hastily down the stairs, and find a gap which they must jump. Now, this isn’t even enough tension, and so a barrage of CG arrows starts. The elf princeling shows his accuracy, and pegging the orc between the eyes made my sister laugh/cheer. Did you ever notice in many movies the ‘bad guys’ can shoot millions of projectiles without effect whereas the good guys are not only one shot-one kill lethal, but can overcome a 10-fold and greater overwhelming enemy force?

Boromir jumps with Merry and Pippin, and that leaves Gimli, Aragorn, Sam and Frodo behind. Aragorn throws Sam across, then we get to hear one of the first of many dwarf jokes. Gimli’s beard saves him from the abyss. Aragorn and Frodo scramble backwards as the gap widens. What to do, what to do?

Luckily, evil does good that it does not intend, and though the two cannot retrace their steps, they can rock the stairs pillar just enough to catch up with the rest of the Fellowship. I’m not going to say one word about the physics of such a heroic move.

I thought that the whole stairs scene unnecessary.

And so it’s on to the bridge with the balrog in pursuit. Wait, weren’t we just there a minute ago? The creature leaps from the flames while Gandalf watches. The FotR makes it to the Bridge – at least their CG doubles do – and so are they safe? Not a chance.

Was Gandalf’s plan all along to stop the balrog cold as he does at the bridge, or if the fire demon weren’t so close, run out of Moria and hope that the balrog would be content with that. Remember discussing this on another thread.

And now for my favorite book scene. Gandalf turns and denies the balrog the bridge. Do not corner this wizard, this conjurer of cheap tricks.

Were those wings I saw?

Anyway, just like in the books, the balrog reignites and prepares for battle. Note that in the book, the balrog is said to be “man-high,” but I’m okay with the increase in stature as that’s the way it’s always been depicted. I just love the exact quote by Gandalf, and that he turns the balrog’s sword stroke with subtlety-shown magic. Was that a shield of light, or just the way the light from his staff beamed?

The other members of the Fellowship look on, not knowing how to help.

The balrog makes to cross, and starts flailing its whip. Then my favorite line, “You shall not pass!” is exclaimed by Ian McKellen, and he does it so well, especially if you consider that at the time he was speaking to a tennis ball on a stick. He drives his staff into the bridge, yet nothing happens either to the staff or the bridge. The balrog snorts his disdain.

He takes another step and off he goes as the bridge breaks beneath him. Just perfectly done. No big magic spells, or focus on the same, just a wizard and now a cracked bridge.

Well done, PJ.

Well, that’s the end of that. Or not. Gandalf turns to go and is snagged by the balrog’s whip. Don’t think that the balrog or the whip hung on, but the fact that Gandalf is drained (and also may have some other idea in mind) makes him fall, cling to the bridge for a moment, then let go. Ian said that some edge had to be produced on the bridge (not seen in the overview shot) as to him it would be silly to hang onto nothing. I think that he could have clung to the edge that he did, then this piece too could fall, taking him with it.

Anyway, as the remainder of the Fellowship scrambles to aid Gandalf, he to goes over into the abyss. Everyone is shocked, yet realizes that it’s time to leave. The orcs show up with their arrows, and you can just hear the balrog saying, “Hey guys, a little late, huh? Could have used the help about five minutes ago.” Finally the Fellowship fools fly and leave the black pit, minus one.

The sad music adds to the feelings here. I too was sad, as is the Fellowship.

But before I go there, I just want to note that I was expecting a little more for the main door of Moria, where Azog and his ilk once roamed. How about some form of road or something?

Anyway, each member of the Fellowship deals with the loss of Gandalf in his own way, whether tears or complete disbelief. The actors commented that Orlando’s look of confusion was just great, as here was an elf contemplating death, and at first blush this makes sense, but then not. I would say that as Legolas knew who Gandalf was, to him the loss of a maia might be inconceivable. Sam is shaken, and Sean Astin’s acting was great. Boromir holds back Gimli, who, like Aragorn before him, was going to go back to do what exactly?

Finally Pip feels responsible for his stupidity, and Merry comforts him. Aragorn’s like “I’m the go-to guy now,” and starts ordering everyone around. Boromir, to me, is much more sympathetic here. Aragorn can be full of compassion when Sam parts with Bill, but when they all part with Gandalf, well, it’s get moving time! And just how do those orcs get out of Moria now that the bridge is down?

Elijah Wood as Frodo is also sad over the loss of Gandalf, though if his facial expression is to convey more, it escapes me.

We next see the Eight (One less!) walking past what I believe to be the Kheled-zâram, and Aragorn is way out in front now. Is this the first time he’s taken the lead?

And where are these fools flying? Will Lothlorien offer any solace? That’s for next week.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

Merry and Pippin toss rocks into the pool until their foolishness is cut short by Aragorn. With Fellowship members like these...

I get bugged by things like this. Small changes like this make me blood boil! It was the petulant and childish Boromir who throws the stone in the water! Don't blame the hobbits. (This change really DOES bug me.....)

Frodo, our leader or at least the one with "the luck," steps up and solves the riddle. PJ states that he wanted Frodo to do this instead of Merry to keep Frodo in the story. I'm okay with that change.

It seems a lot of people have this misconception that Book Merry solved the riddle. He didn't - he just asked the question of what the words meant and Gandalf finally picked up on this - Another change I didn't like. (I really don't know why these small changes annoy me more than the large ones - it could be that I can give a 'movie' reason for some of the larger ones, but no reason for these small changes)

Suddenly Frodo goes floorward and is dragged to the pool. Sam's quick intervention beats off the tentacle. Or not. Whiny Frodo now goes skyward. Sure, if I were hanging by my leg over a dirty pool of water (assuming that this isn't Fear Factor and money isn't involved), and some creature head is going to eat me, I would whine too. But it just adds to the perceived weakness of the Frodo movie character that I just didn't get from the books. It might be me, or others also see Frodo so weakened and unheroic.

No, you answered youre query yourself. He's been picked up by a monster - wouldn't you cry out as Book Frodo does at this point? Also, I would have loved to have just seen Sam save Frodo at this point, but I can understand this small change movie wise to give us more of a spectacle of a fight scene with the major characters.

We get more words right from the pages of FotR. Gollum has a bit to play, but to what end? Then Frodo asks, "why me?" I just love this part, and though not shooting/car chase-crash exciting, it's really profound and an enjoyable moment in an otherwise action flick. Think that this moment was captured in poster form, and was pushed after the September 11 terrorist attacks in the United States. People had the same questions as did Frodo, and that made this moment all the more poignant.

I didn't (and never have) thought of this AT ALL. My mind is always fully in Middle-earth in these films (except for when I see jackson or his kids) - and nothing drags me back to the real world - so no thoughts of allegory at all for me here.

The fact that Frodo was 'meant' to bear the Ring doesn't encourage me. Is everything predetermined?

I don't mind these scenes taking place in Moria instead of Bag End - I think it really works here - Gandalf giving his last piece of Knowledge and wisdom to Frodo before he Falls.

Sam's exclamation, though a quote from the book, is just so misplaced here. Wow! Big stone pillars. I'd prefer that the comment be used when Gandalf really shows some of real powers, but...oh well.

It's a pity we didn't have the Wolf attack scene where book Sam says this line regarding Gandalf's powers. Instead we get a silly Warg attack in TT that was one of my least favourite parts of the films!

I thought that the whole stairs scene unnecessary.

Absolutely. Ok, so we have a part of the books where the fellowship have to jump over a chasm - but this is taking it too far.

Well, that’s the end of that. Or not. Gandalf turns to go and is snagged by the balrog’s whip. Don’t think that the balrog or the whip hung on, but the fact that Gandalf is drained (and also may have some other idea in mind) makes him fall, cling to the bridge for a moment, then let go.

On another tolkien forum I used when the first two films were coming out there was a ridculous thread on the physics of how Gandalf catches up with his sword and the Balrog! It went on for MONTHS - people exlplaining they had physics degrees and could explain how he caught up, terminal velocity etc - it was hilarious!

And just how do those orcs get out of Moria now that the bridge is down?

the same way they do in the books........

We next see the Eight (One less!) walking past what I believe to be the Kheled-zâram

one of my favourite passages in the book, Gimli and Sam going down to the water's edge with Sam in tow - but seing as they've just said that the orcs will be around soon, I suppose we can't show this in the movie.

and Aragorn is way out in front now.

because he knows he's going to Lorien, his favourite place in Middle-earth

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Note that PJ and the ilk wanted to kill Bill via the Watcher, but thought the better of it

Perhaps PJ was thinking of calling the film
"Kill Bill III."

=================

Moving along, this section generally has some of the better,
and more "book true" segments, except for the overly
long battle scene.
I like the occasional book (and movie) allusions to
providnce's (Iluvatar's or the valar's) intervention, since
the legendarium as a whole makes it clear there is scope
both for Eru keeping long-term Middle-earth history from
being irretrevably perverted by Morgoth, Sauron, et. al.
and still allowing scope for free will (if the quest had
failed a long time of ickiness for middle-earth, just as
the fate of Beleriand would have been better but for
the arrogance of Feanor and Sons. Therefore
Gandalf's transposed observations about Frodo
being "meant" to bear the Ring and Bilbo's sparing
Gollum don't, to me, necessarily negate free will.
And I was rather pleasantly surprised PJ and friends
kept this aspect in FOTR.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

I get bugged by things like this. Small changes like this make me blood boil! It was the petulant and childish Boromir who throws the stone in the water! Don't blame the hobbits. (This change really DOES bug me.....)

That is just too funny, as I consider this a small change that is consistent within PJ's Middle Earth. Pip and Merry are to be seen as fools so that later they can 'grow up.'

It seems a lot of people have this misconception that Book Merry solved the riddle. He didn't - he just asked the question of what the words meant and Gandalf finally picked up on this - Another change I didn't like. (I really don't know why these small changes annoy me more than the large ones - it could be that I can give a 'movie' reason for some of the larger ones, but no reason for these small changes)

Merry/Frodo act as a catalyst. And again, I'm for showing Frodo Baggage doing something .

I didn't (and never have) thought of this AT ALL. My mind is always fully in Middle-earth in these films (except for when I see jackson or his kids) - and nothing drags me back to the real world - so no thoughts of allegory at all for me here.

I was referring to this movie poster, not my experience in the theater. Sorry, should have been more clear. Strangely, in my search for the link I saw many religious sites making use of the same quotation.

It's a pity we didn't have the Wolf attack scene where book Sam says this line regarding Gandalf's powers. Instead we get a silly Warg attack in TT that was one of my least favourite parts of the films!

The stairs scene could have been cut for a Warg scene. We could have seen more Gandalf in his glory and still had action.

On another tolkien forum I used when the first two films were coming out there was a ridculous thread on the physics of how Gandalf catches up with his sword and the Balrog! It went on for MONTHS - people exlplaining they had physics degrees and could explain how he caught up, terminal velocity etc - it was hilarious!

Luckily I am too busy to be...ahhh...caught up in such discussions....

the same way they do in the books........

Think that you and I discussed this before, but I don't remember how they get out. Already on the other side? New bridge? Alternate route? What?

because he knows he's going to Lorien, his favourite place in Middle-earth

Nah, that was Imladris, Home of the She-Elf.

Cheers.

[Essex]

Nah, that was Imladris, Home of the She-Elf. Cheers.

I suppose it depends on what two of Aragorn's quotes you take as true.

Lothlorien -

`Here is the heart of Elvendom on earth,' he said, `and here my heart dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still must tread, you and I. Come with me! '

Rivendell -

Were I to go where my heart dwells, far in the North I would now be wandering in the fair valley of Rivendell.'

[alatar]

The answer to me is obvious .

[Lathriel]

Just one quick comment. I didn't like the cave troll. I thought that fight was really drawn out and unneccessary. They could have used that screen time for something else. Besides in the book the cave troll is only mentioned and he doesn't do anything.
I understand that there must be a way for Frodo to show off his mithril coat but I still think they could have cut the time with the cave troll in half.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

The answer to me is obvious .

oh yes, his heart was with Arwen, but he MET her in Lothlorien, and she choses to go back there to die doesn't she? (or is that just fanfiction I'm thinking of here?) So it was no doubt a special place (and to me his favourite place - just look at his moive aragorn face as the end of the scene as they approach lothlorien)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

They met in Rivendell and agreed to wed in Lothlorien. Judging by those quotations Essex provides, 'Gorn himself was inconsistent.

There is one more very funny moment in Moria. Right after Gandalf says 'I have no memory of this place', Aragorn, while smoking, turns to Boromir and makes this little mocking noise, a sort of snort to indicate 'What a stupid wizard!'

Makes me laugh every time.

[Boromir88]

I'm going to start catching up here as work has kept me behind...Overall I was very pleased with these scenes and this part into Moria. (Is anyone surprised)? There are some good moments in this part of the film.

The one that sticks out to me is the scene between Gandalf and Frodo in Moria, while sitting around trying to figure out a way. Not only just because this conversation was in the books, but Jackson uses it to his best advantage. First, Ian Mckellan I think delivers his lines very well, plus the impact of these lines for Frodo later on in the film when he decides to leave The Fellowship.
First the important life lesson:

"Many that live deserve death, some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? Then do not be too eager to deal out death and judgement, not even the very wise can see all ends."

Again straight from the book and reminding us, that we don't know what's going to happen in life, so it's not our "duty" to deal out death and judge others.

Then the message Frodo will "flashback" to at the end of FOTR:

"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time it is given to us."

We get a clue in the movies that there are other forces at work, that are beyond Sauron's control, or anyone's control. Though they are working, they can not intervene and "run the show." Though there is some sort of fate involved, there still is free will. In which those faced with the situation (in Frodo's case who come across the Ring) has to decide what they will do with it, it was fate that led him to the ring, but now it's his choice in what to do with it.

The Moria fight was neat, as well as the Balrog fight. Despite Jackson's innaccuracies with the Balrog (yes I call them innaccuracies) he makes a very scary and intimidating Balrog, something that anyone (even Gandalf) would fear fighting and so the innaccuracies really don't bug me.

Also, the Cave Troll fight really doesn't bug me. Instead of a large Orc Captain, Jackson inserts a Giant Cave Troll, and as we know the Orcs had cave trolls, The Fellowship just didn't fight them, so it's not like Jackson was just pulling stuff from the air.

The only thing that I wish was cut out was when The Fellowship is surrounded by a mob of Orcs. First, it creates a problem in that a mob of Orcs has surrounded 9 people, almost half of which look like little kids, so now Jackson has to figure out a way in order to get the Fellowship out of this mess:

Mistake 1- This is when he introduces the Balrog, and makes the goblins flee in terror. Why would they fear the Balrog, I thought it was he who commanded the Orcs as they drove out the dwarves? Plus it just doesn't make sense why 1,000's of Orcs would just run away from easy eatings.
Mistake 2- In order for the orcs to appear/get away, there's got to be a way for them to get out. So, Jackson puts in crevices and has them climb down from walls, and hop, creating the impression of a difference between Orcs and Goblins. Which there isn't, and even the movies interchange the two words. But, people get the impression (as there are countless of threads) that Goblins are different from Orcs.

To me this scene causes too many conflicts and isn't needed, again this one could be cut and the time could be used for something else. The mismanagement of time in the movies, inserting scenes that cause problems, or just aren't needed is really the stuff that I wish Jackson did differently. Other than that little thing though, this sequence was done extremely well. As was most of this movie, just the later movies I really start scratching my head at some things.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Boromir, I don't know why the orcs leave either (other than that it looks scary in the movie), but whatever it is, it's the same reason that the Witch-king didn't kill Gandalf in ROTK EE but instead flew off to "see who's blowing horns at this hour of the morning."

[Lathriel]

To me it made sense because it showed me that the Balrog is an even greater evil. It shows that the Balrog is so evil,even the orcs fear the creature. This in turn should make us viewers scared or at least filled with suspense.

[Essex]

Boromir

Mistake 1- This is when he introduces the Balrog, and makes the goblins flee in terror. Why would they fear the Balrog, I thought it was he who commanded the Orcs as they drove out the dwarves?

From Tolkien himself as the Balrog arrives

The ranks of orcs had opened, and they crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid

Elladan

it's the same reason that the Witch-king didn't kill Gandalf in ROTK EE but instead flew off to "see who's blowing horns at this hour of the morning."

Jackson can't win then can he? He follows the book precisely at this point, and he still gets moaned at!!!!!!!!!! Jackson does not have the advantage of narration in his films (except in the prologue) so how can he explain Tolkien's description

But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and the world had turned against him; victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons. He left the Gate and vanished.

He realised his attack was not going to plan - and had to refocus his attack before it was too late. The Wizard could wait - he had other eggs to fry.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

He realised his attack was not going to plan - and had to refocus his attack before it was too late. The Wizard could wait - he had other eggs to fry.

That's correct. But it's also unclear what would
have been the result of an encounter at the
gates between the Wirch-king and Gandalf.
Both had grown in power since FOTR.

And the way the orcs ran away in movie FOTR in
Moria was irritating. You can presume that
Gandalf would have used some magic, but even
with Strider, Boromir, Leggy and the three
brave hobbits (Frodo fainting? ) would have been
hard-pressed to cut through hundreds of orcsees.
In the book they "parted" to let the balrog through,
I don't believe they ran away.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

That's correct. But it's also unclear what would have been the result of an encounter at the gates between the Wirch-king and Gandalf. Both had grown in power since FOTR.

Ok, but that wasn't my point - just explaining why he left, both movie and book wise, not on the possible outcome of the fight.

And the way the orcs ran away in movie FOTR in Moria was irritating......In the book they "parted" to let the balrog through, I don't believe they ran away.

I can read "crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid" as running. It is a moot point really, and I don't think anyone would lose any sleep over it to be honest!

[alatar]

Though I wasn't bugged about the orcs running from the Balrog, I would say that it doesn't exactly follow the books. My interpretation is that the Balrog is the commander, and so pushes the Orcs and troll forward to fight the Fellowship. It's only after they fail does he enter the fray.

Don't have the book, but listening to the CD, I remember that the troll tries to enter the chamber door first, gets a sword blow from Boromir (which is ineffective), gets stuck by a Sting-wielding Frodo (would have loved to have seen that) and so withdraws. The orcs enter next and are overwhelmed by the defense. The orc chieftain attacks Frodo and is cut down by Aragorn. The FotR makes to leave out the back door when Gandalf perceives the 'other.' He stays and attempts to shut the door, but the Balrog comes into the chamber and starts a counter spell. Gandalf is strained, and so has to use a word of command, which destroys the door and cuts off the pursuit. Momentarily he gets a glimpse of some dark presence, but does not know what it is at that time.

In the movie, when Gandalf sternly tells Aragorn that "swords are no more use here," they are positioned correctly (at the top of a stair) but Gandalf has no door to shut, nor does it seem that the Balrog tries to come through that way. Too big, perhaps? Some action, I assume, from the Balrog starts busting up the place, and this actually helps Aragorn and Frodo get over the gap in the stair. No action by Gandalf to cut off the pursuit. Was it a timing issue, or did PJ not want to show Gandalf as that able?

Anyway...similar, yet different .

Another point: I thought that Gimli standing on Balin's tomb was disrespectful, but the book states that Gandalf uses it as a table when he reads the account of the dwarf colony, and so it's not treated that respectfully. Plus, Gimli chops the legs of an orc who stands on Balin's tomb, and again I think that PJ only wanted to place Gimli where he could be seen when he delivered his lines, as it's a stupid place from which to fight.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

I think that PJ only wanted to place Gimli where he could be seen when he delivered his lines, as it's a stupid place from which to fight.

Is it? Try telling that to Anakin Skywalker. Obi Wan 'had the higher ground' and therefore beat him. Our strudy dwarf also has the higher ground here by standing on Balin's tomb. I'm sure Balin wouldn't have minded......... He's putting a stake in the gorund, implying that he is guarding Balin's tomb. ie you'll have to come through me first before you desecrate his tomb. etc, etc.

and re:

My interpretation is that the Balrog is the commander, and so pushes the Orcs and troll forward to fight the Fellowship. It's only after they fail does he enter the fray.

My interpretation is that he comes down via the other route after his first is blocked off by Gandalf's word of Command. He wasn't waiting for the orcs to attack - He was just travelling another route!!!!!

PS - why people moan about things like this (ie the orcs ran away) is nit picking to me. Yes, I know we're all entitled to our opinions, but all I seem to be doing is defending Jackson and his crew to the many (samll) issues people have with the films and not having enough time to praise his filmaking myself!!!!!

PPS Talking about what's good with these scenes, it's good to see the man who will be King taking over directly after Gandalf had Fallen. Getting the hobbits up - realising there is little time for mourning and taking over command of the troop.

PPPS - doesn't the Balrog look great? Not sure what Boromir meant by saying it was inaccurate (size maybe?) - we're not going to get into another balrog wings argument are we? (I stayed clear of the recent thread on this!)

PPPPS - the discussion between gandalf and frodo - works really well here - I don't mind it not being in Bag end as it is in the books. It's like Gandalf is imparting his last piece of wisdom onto Frodo...............

PPPPPS - I agree with alatar that the stairs scene is not required. I would have loved to have seen Gandalf battle Spell wise with the (unseen) Balrog instead.....I've always been fascinated by what the 'Words of Command' were - and what their actual power was.

PPPPPPS - badly structured note here - too many PS's.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

and re: My interpretation is that he comes down via the other route after his first is blocked off by Gandalf's word of Command. He wasn't waiting for the orcs to attack - He was just travelling another route!!!!!

I'll have to rely on you to supply the direct quote, but in the book the Balrog is first 'seen' in the Chamber of Mazarbul, and this only after the fighting and just before the WoC destroys the door. However, if you mean that the Balrog would have joined in the initial attack with the orcs and troll but was late arriving at the Chamber, then I can allow for that.

But in other news...why did PJ have wooden doors in a place made of stone? My impression of Moria is that, with few exceptions, everything is made of stone, ore, metal etc. And I forgot that the pillars seen holding up the celing were carved to appear as trees, but I can understand why PJ didn't portray them that way - tree = elf, geometric shapes - dwarf.

[alatar]

At my son's request, we listened to LotR on CD as we ran errands. Not sure that he knew what he was asking for, I chose the Bridge of Khazad-dûm chapter as then he would have some reference point (we'd played out the scene many times). Anyway, as I listened, I heard again that when the FotR minus Gandalf leave Moria that they go down some steps onto a road perhaps. PJ's East Gate of Moria is just not right. I think that maybe he was trying to use a natural real world location, but one would think that this being a dwarven capital that the area outside of the gate would have had some landscaping and stonework, even in these years of decay.

What came to mind was the Lost City, home of the sleestaks.

[Nogrod]

I guess this is one of the sequences, that really highlights PJ's insistence to make Merry, Pip and Gimli something like fools - and I really don't like it. I can see, that there are very simple-minded people out there, and they are potential ticket payers too. But c'mon! Why do you have to a) make someone a fool at first to show that he has matured during the adventure? b) have a fool in a movie in the first place? The roles of these three are in the worst instance like copied from a Disney film, where there always has to be those good and bad fool-servants...

About the Balrog and the orcs / goblins. I could see their relation along the lines of a lion and the hyenas. Hyenas will follow and fear it. That metaphor should not be stretched forwards though, as it breaks immediately after stating this basic fact.

Otherwise, its funny how perceptions change with knowledge. As I first time saw the movie, I thought the Balrog to be just a ME version of the Jurassic Park T-Rex, and was a bit disappointed. But after seeing the "making of"-stuff on the dvd, with all that stone and fire -thing, I started to appreciate it, kind of started to see, what it was all about - and both saw and heard it differently...

Also, I seem to belong to those people who think that the cavetroll thing was a bit farfetched and overemphasized. Basically just a tool to justify an action scene with swordplay and lots of tight situations - showing simultaneously some abilities of the members of the fellowship with it. But as I understand the anguish of Alatar's children, I myself really liked the portrayal of the death of the troll - it was so... humane (NO!) ... so...? The sound of it dying was awesome (what was it: a walrus and a backwards-tiger or something?) and kind of made me sad also!

The staircase that goes tumbling down and leaving the heroes in a tight situation and a last moment escape... Maybe decent actionfilm-wise, Tolkienwise, no. But the Maori-music was great there! (Indeed, if you listen to it with Finninsh ears, you hear them singing repeatedly "musta-musta-musta"... - in Finninsh that means "black-black-black"... )

[doug*platypus]

Interesting sequence, this. Some of the best and worst movie stuff here.

Nice to hear Bill the Pony mentioned by name; did PJ and co really want the Watcher to eat him?! Disturbing this news is...

All in all I thought that the scene in front of the doors of Moria was well done. I personally didn't have a problem with Frodo solving the riddle, since I'm all for Frodo in most matters, begging your pardon. Ditto Merry and Pippin childishly throwing pebbles into the water; it seemed in character for the mischievous duo. The writing on the doors looked excellent, and really seemed to be shining out, as you would expect of ithildin.

On entering the mines, the Fellowship immediately find out that there have been previous kerfuffles, and that in all likelihood they will find goblins rather than the Dwarves that Gimli was sure were there. I think this ruins the surprise somewhat, and also leads to a bit of indecision on the part of the company. "Into the mines!" "Out of the mines!" "Into the mines again!". It seems to be a bit of a recurring theme with PJ that his characters don't know where they're going, or why (Éomer, Faramir, Sam).

The watcher in the water was a great creature! Really freaky. I know that in the book we only see the tentacles, but I felt in this instance that PJ made a good decision, and the horror is in fact intensified by seeing the beast.

Gandalf's dialogue with Frodo is just fantastic. Although I miss my favourite chapter in the book, The Shadow of the Past, when the two are discussing this and other things in the comfort of Bag End, inserting the dialogue at this point in time worked very well. Possibly even better, dare I say it, as this becomes almost the last words that Gandalf will speak to the Ringbearer before their paths are sundered.

I thought that the reveal of the twenty-first hall, or wherever it was, with the pillars was not as impressive as Jackson intended it to be. It just looked like a CG shot of a bunch of pillars, to me, yet we are supposed to be filled with some grand sense of wonder. For those of you with access to the Alan Lee illustrated centenary edition of LOTR, I think that Lee's painting is considerably better. We see a few less pillars, with the Fellowship shown at the base of one for a truly grand sense of scale, and a shaft of light beaming in from outside. Also the pillars appear more carven, and there are vast vaults which make the place seem like some fabulous stone cathedral. Sam's comment about an eye-opener may have been more suited if PJ had shown us this hall exactly as Lee had envisioned it.

The Book of Mazarbul was a very well crafted prop. It absolutely looked the part, and PJ allowed enough of the book dialogue through for us to get a sense of impending doom. Pippin's folly in disturbing the skeleton was pretty well done, but I guess by placing it here in the Chamber rather than earlier begs to ask the question, just how far away were those orcs that they reached the Fellowship so quickly?

Although I enjoyed the fight scene in the book more, especially Frodo's foot stabbing styles and the description of the appearance of the orc chieftain, its PJs artistic licence to show the various battle scenes as he chooses to, and I can't see too much to complain about. The cave troll batting orcs away while trying to nail Gimli was cool. I wish that Gimli hadn't been prancing around on top of Balin's tomb; I also thought it was a little disrespectful, and not in keeping with the book Gimli who hewed the legs out from under an orc who had sprung on the tomb.

I would have hated the dwelling on Frodo's mithril coat, except for a classic Gimli quote: "you are full of surprises, Mr Baggins". I just love Rhys-Davies accent and delivery here.

So the Fellowship escape for the time being, and Gandalf tells us the title of the next chapter for effect (yawn! I'm getting tired of hearing the chapter names by now, sorry, as they add little to the story). Then the infamous surrounding of the Fellowship by thousands of orcses, which I totally don't buy. While I accept that the orcs are afraid of the Balrog, I don't think that fear would extend to giving up on almost certain victory over the Fellowship, and dinner to boot. So then we get even more foreshadowing of the Balrog. Bad enough that Saruman had to tell us what the surprise was; now Gandalf is laying the facts out before we even see the guy. Okay, so it's defensible that Gandalf perceived what was coming for them, but I would have preferred not to have him named until the Fellowship actually see him.

And just when the tension is building up to a confrontation between Gandalf and the Balrog, PJ inserts one of the more ridiculous scenes in the trilogy: the falling stairs. Because Moria and a Balrog aren't exciting enough? Or were they so exciting that we needed to slow down the action for what seem like endless minutes? I just can't understand his logic, here.

And finally we get to see the Balrog. Was he worth all the waiting and foreshadowing? NO. At the risk of being unpopular, I have to say that in FOTR the Balrog was not as scary as he should have been. When we see the fire effects on him close up in TTT, he is much better, but in the current sequence he just didn't do it for me. I think most probably because he was too animalistic. There was no sense of malice or evil. He was just there, on fire, breathing a bit of fire, but no emotion. Maybe if he had eyes in his sockets instead of just fire, he would have been able to impart some terror in me, but alas no.

I'm glad PJ decided to go with Gandalf's cryptic "secret fire" lines from the book here. This confrontation could easily have turned into another "give up the halfling she-elf". Then all happens more or less as per the book... Balrog's sword destroyed, Gandalf breaks the bridge, Balrog lashes whip around Gandalf's ankles. But then the whip releases him, and he is left hanging on to the bridge. This is a bit of a mistake, I think, because it seems as if Boromir or Aragorn could have saved Gandalf by running to his aid and helping him up. It almost seems as if Gandalf lets go. He looks to be in a position where he could possibly scramble up on to the bridge. It would have been more plausible if the Balrog had simply dragged him off the bridge completely as per the book, with Gandalf vainly clutching at the stone. We then could have had the yell of "fly, you fools!" as Gandalf sails down into the abyss.

Then we have the weeping scene, and it's off to Lothlórien! I might add that PJ made a good decision to cut out Kheled-Zâram; Gimli's sightseeing would not have added much to the story, and only served to confuse viewers.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by doug*platypus

On entering the mines, the Fellowship immediately find out that there have been previous kerfuffles, and that in all likelihood they will find goblins rather than the Dwarves that Gimli was sure were there. I think this ruins the surprise somewhat, and also leads to a bit of indecision on the part of the company. "Into the mines!" "Out of the mines!" "Into the mines again!". It seems to be a bit of a recurring theme with PJ that his characters don't know where they're going, or why (Éomer, Faramir, Sam).

The wargs that one hears help one make clearer decisions.

I thought that the reveal of the twenty-first hall, or wherever it was, with the pillars was not as impressive as Jackson intended it to be. It just looked like a CG shot of a bunch of pillars, to me, yet we are supposed to be filled with some grand sense of wonder. For those of you with access to the Alan Lee illustrated centenary edition of LOTR, I think that Lee's painting is considerably better. We see a few less pillars, with the Fellowship shown at the base of one for a truly grand sense of scale, and a shaft of light beaming in from outside. Also the pillars appear more carven, and there are vast vaults which make the place seem like some fabulous stone cathedral. Sam's comment about an eye-opener may have been more suited if PJ had shown us this hall exactly as Lee had envisioned it.

Much agreed, and glad that it's not only me. What, exactly, was I supposed to see? Here's a large room with large pillars. Wow! Also, the room seems to have no purpose, at least far as I can see (I'm no Dwarf, and my imagination may be limited.) And this room always brings up the point of, if your community's average height is <4 feet, why do you make pathways for giants that allow mortal enemies, like Dragons and Balrogs, to walk freely through the place? And another 'and,' if so much work was put into making such a splendid hall of columns, why couldn't the Dwarves spend a few minutes on the front door, which looks to me like lava spew.

Pippin's folly in disturbing the skeleton was pretty well done, but I guess by placing it here in the Chamber rather than earlier begs to ask the question, just how far away were those orcs that they reached the Fellowship so quickly?

The orcs and cave troll were actually nearby, touring the 'Columns of Khazad-dûm,' which is a big attraction of the evil set (which is the real reason that the orcs, trolls, Balrog and even Sauron sought to take the Halls of Durin's folk, as the admission fees in mithril prohibited entry).

Then the infamous surrounding of the Fellowship by thousands of orcses, which I totally don't buy. While I accept that the orcs are afraid of the Balrog, I don't think that fear would extend to giving up on almost certain victory over the Fellowship, and dinner to boot.

Thought that these guys were in league, or have we learned what meat burns in a Balrog's belly? I did like that Gandalf was able to detect the creature in a 'psychic' fashion, as that imparts some ability to the old man with the stick (unlike later, in RotK).

This is a bit of a mistake, I think, because it seems as if Boromir or Aragorn could have saved Gandalf by running to his aid and helping him up. It almost seems as if Gandalf lets go. He looks to be in a position where he could possibly scramble up on to the bridge. It would have been more plausible if the Balrog had simply dragged him off the bridge completely as per the book, with Gandalf vainly clutching at the stone. We then could have had the yell of "fly, you fools!" as Gandalf sails down into the abyss.

Didn't Ian McKellen have some say here? Didn't he think that just popping off the edge with a fare-thee-well wouldn't have worked? Think that he stated that there should be some 'edge' onto which he could cling for a moment. And, after watching TTT, did Gandalf actually just let go to continue the attack? If he were to have climbed up or were pulled up, the Balrog would have flown back up the passage on those wings, and then there'd be fire in Nanduhirion.

[alatar]

Watching the Moria scene recently on TV - the theatrical version - it caught me how silly the previous scene was. Frodo takes a tumble on the snows of Caradhras and the Ring falls from his neck. Here, the Watcher flings him around like so much bubble gum stuck to the end of your finger and yet the Ring stays put. Did the Ring have a fire for Boromir, falling for him, and not for the creature in the lake, which may have not been the best bearer? Was the Ring sick of being in a deep dark pool and so clung to Frodo for all it was worth?

Also, the much-maligned insectoid orcs that defy gravity and climb down the pillars to surround the Fellowship: did they take leave of this ability when battling the Nine earthbound walkers? What an advantage it would be to drop down upon your opponent...

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by alatar

Watching the Moria scene recently on TV - the theatrical version - it caught me how silly the previous scene was. Frodo takes a tumble on the snows of Caradhras and the Ring falls from his neck. Here, the Watcher flings him around like so much bubble gum stuck to the end of your finger and yet the Ring stays put. Did the Ring have a fire for Boromir, falling for him, and not for the creature in the lake, which may have not been the best bearer? Was the Ring sick of being in a deep dark pool and so clung to Frodo for all it was worth?

Also, the much-maligned insectoid orcs that defy gravity and climb down the pillars to surround the Fellowship: did they take leave of this ability when battling the Nine earthbound walkers? What an advantage it would be to drop down upon your opponent...

Well...you answered your own question on the first point. We're told right at the start that the Ring has a will of its own. At the Council it 'sees' that Boromir is susceptible to it, and so when it sees a chance to reveal itself to him and re-awaken his desire for it, it takes it (think back to its almost poltergeist-like fall from Gollum's rock in the prologue).
However, another five hundred years in a dark cave with another witless monster is not what the Ring would want, hence it staying with Frodo during the roller-coaster tossing by the Watcher.
I don't think any of this is 'silly'.

Your second point is more accurate. However, in the book the orcs came through the door on foot, so that's what the film chose. Wouldn't want to go against the book now, would we?

[sassyfriend]

I sort of have a problem with the bridge scene as well. I don't know how Aragorn and Frodo manged not to fall off!