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#1 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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This is the first draft of the chapter The Return of the Shadow.
This chapter is a thoroughly mixed bag of sources, and so there is no base text. Because of this, I have marked every instance of any text used, so as to be easy to follow. The markings are: FY-HL-xx for all the headlines for the Fading Years. RS-SL-xx for all expansions and changes to the narrative. Some conventions of my writing: Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalized text, normally only used for general changes, as well as changes which are a part of replacement that is not grammatical. Underlined Text = text changed for grammatical reasons in the process of combining and inserting and removing. <source example> = additions with source information ...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source. Quote:
RS-SL-01: We open right where the other chapter left off, with the escape of Ohtar and the sword. The account given in The Sources of the Legend of Isildur's Death is longer, but I felt it was out of place, being a somewhat scholarly document, as well as the fact that it references events in the late part of the Third Age and the beginning of the Fourth Age. This account in Of the Rings of Power is the best we have left. RS-SL-02 and 03: These additions set the stage of Thranduil's isolation and his frame of mind. It sets the stage for our return to him at the end of the chapter when Sauron returns. We get to see some of his character, as well as the origin of his halls. We also talk a bit about the transformation of the Silvan speech, which I promised to Fin when we were editing the very first chapter of the Second Age. RS-SL-04: A comment of Christopher Tolkien removed. RS-SL-05: I removed this reference to Frodo, since in our draft of the narrative, he will never be mentioned once, and so this reference to him is severely out of place. RS-SL-06: We have used the other origin of the name of Lorien (as we should, as it makes much greater linguistic and etymological sense, and is in line with what Treebeard says in Two Towers). I also removed CT's comment. RS-SL-07: Here we transition from Thranduil to Gondor, and set the stage for its earliest kings. There is no narrative of Gondor's doings before the seventh king, so this paragraph from Of the Rings of Power helps to convey the passage of time, as well as set the stage for Gondor's growth. RS-SL-08: Here we begin with the first bit of narrative on the kings of Gondor from Appendix A. This chapter uses Appendix A heavily, as I think can be seen to be necessary. RS-SL-09: This is a bit from The Tradition of Isildur that belongs here chronologically, and since we have only just finished that previous chapter, it will still be fresh in the mind of the reader. I edited the opening to flow correctly. Afterwards we return to the Appendix A narrative and introduce Tarannon Falastur. RS-SL-10: This is the story of Queen Beruthiel as given in the Note to the Istari. I removed the descriptions of Tarannon Falastur from the beginning, since we have just given them in the previous paragraph. RS-SL-11: Editing to turn CT's description into a narrative. RS-SL-12: This discussion of Eriador is very brief in Appendix A. In that work it sets the stage for the discussion of Arnor which occupies that area. It does the same thing here. RS-SL-13: I decided to include the rest of the Galadriel and Celeborn Appendix D here, since it describes the area, especially during the Third Age. I know it jumps around in time a bit, but as it is discussing geography and not history, I think it is ok. RS-SL-14: This was a bit left out of Unfinished Tales and printed in the Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor essay. RS-SL-15: I removed the references to The Lord of the Rings in order to preserve the historical nature of our text. RS-SL-16: another LotR reference removed. RS-SL-17: This ending to the footnote was left out of Unfinished Tales and given in the Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor essay. RS-SL-18: We return to Appendix A's discussion of Eriador and how Arnor fits into it. We begin by laying out the geo-political status of the land: who owns what. RS-SL-19: Here we begin to talk about the history of Arnor. Like in Gondor, there is no history written about the first few kings, and so the first thing we hear about Arnorian history is the fracturing of the realm. RS-SL-20: This footnote is sourced from the lists of the Kings' names in the beginning of the Appendix, but I found it to be important and so I included it. RS-SL-21 and 22: Here we return to Gondor, and I added a clarification to the 'his' in 'his nephew', since we have inserted a bunch of Arnorian history in between the last reference to Falastur. RS-SL-23: In the next few paragraphs we will detail the change of name from Greenwood the Great to Mirkwood, so it is important that we are consistent and change it here. RS-SL-24: Here we go back to Of the Rings of Power where we are given the first narrative introduction of Sauron's return: as a Shadow (making the title choice, I think, even more fitting). I edited it lightly since we already talked about Greenwood in the last paragraph. This is smoother, I think. RS-SL-25: Here we see Thranduil's response to the arrival of Sauron to the forest, and we detail the origin of his Halls and his kingdom as it is in The Hobbit. RS-SL-26: This detail about the extent of his realm was, I thought, important to include. RS-SL-27: Here we return to Of the Rings of Power where we finally detail the change of name from Greenwood to Mirkwood. RS-SL-28: This addition is from the early drafts of the Tale of Years, which were much longer and more text-heavy than the final versions were. I used this because it is the only place I found that detailed the origin or arrival of Hobbits, which is an incredibly important event and happens (according to the final Tale of Years) at this time. I therefore think it fits to use this here. RS-SL-29: This additional detail is given in the note, and I think it is an interesting and important detail to add in. RS-SL-30: These movements happen very close together in the timeline (within a few years) and I figured it made sense to include them in this paragraph. RS-SL-31: Here we come to the arrival of the rest of the Istari from Of the Rings of Power. This was my original placement for the material which is now the chapter Of the Five Wizards, but now this is much reduced in content. This is fine, however, and I think this nice simple account fits nicely here. RS-SL-32: I added this addition here to reflect the changes of Tolkien's which we have incorporated that say that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age. I think this is enough to make the situation clear, but I am open to other alternatives. RS-SL-33 and 34: I thought it was only fair to include the details of Radagast's dwelling, since we are given Gandalf and Saruman's. I took the text from Note 4 of The Istari in Unfinished Tales, and added in the tiny snippet from The Hobbit to create a quick description of Rhosgobel (as much as can be done). That brings us to the end of the chapter. All in all, I am actually very proud of this chapter, since it took a lot of cross-checking and timeline measuring to make sure the narrative flow was accurate to history. Making a chapter out of so many different snippets is a challenge, but I think it turned out quite well. Hopefully you enjoy! Last edited by ArcusCalion; 06-18-2018 at 01:05 AM. |
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#2 | ||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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My compliment, you managed this difficult chapter very nicely. I rather have additions than criticism:
RS-SL-01: I think we should add here a passage from The Heirs of Elendil: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As a consequence of this I would move the complete passage quoted above to a slightly later place just before RS-SL-21. I know that this is against the chronological order, but it is the easiest way to make the connection just explained clearer. RS-SL-18: Here we give an account of the Dwarves still journeying along the Great Road. That is good placed and well edited, but the passage ‘as they had done for long years before Hobbits came to the Shire’ most in my opinion be changed. I would simply remove ‘before the Hobbits came to the shire’. Whatever reference we take for the ‘long years’ it is right since the Great Road was used if not made by the Dwarves for their trade between the different realms even before the rising of the Sun. RS-SL-26: This case is similar to the last, so here we might leave the allusion to the future stand, so for the moment I think we should remove the following bit at the end ‘, before the coming of the Dwarves exiled from Moria and the invasion of the Dragon’. RS-SL-29: I think we should add here where these Hobbits settled. After this I think we should use a part from Of Dwarves and Men: Quote:
RS-SL-30.4: I think we have to remove Bilbo here and of course the editorial reference to LotR. RS-SL-30.6: I replaced ‘Bilbo’s time’ by ‘the end of the Third Age’. RS-SL-30.8: I removed this editorial note but made the correction earlier in the text. RS-SL-31 to RS-SL-34: I see that we have a chapter in volume 3 about the Istari where we can address a many things easier, but we maybe should at least mention somewhere here or in the Second Age chapter the name ‘Blue Wizards Ithryn Luin’ maybe here with an allusion that Saruman journey with them into the east. In addition I think we should add here the scene of Círdan giving Narya to Gandalf. I suggest to take that from The Rings of Power since we might repeat the scene in volume 3 with in the essay The Istari. One last point: RS-SL-08, RS-SL-09.5, RS-SL-19, RS-SL-21: We should discuss if we will not in these cases take the very similar passages from The Heirs of Elendil. I agree that Appendix A has additional information, but we could add these into the wording of The Heirs of Elendil, if necessary. On the other hand we might consider taking The Heirs of Elendil and update it as part of volume 3 behind The Line of Elros. If we do that then here Appendix A is the better source. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 06-18-2018 at 02:24 PM. |
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#3 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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RS-SL-01.5: Agreed, good find.
RS-SL-10.2: I don't think we need to first addition, since we already say much the same thing a sentence earlier. Same with the third addition, since the information is basically the same as that already given in the existing note. The middle addition is very good though. I also agree to move the quoted additions to the place just before RS-SL-21. RS-SL-18: I actually think we are fine to leave the phrase 'before Hobbits came to the Shire.' This work was supposed to have been compiled by Hobbits and Gondorian scribes, and so to use this phrase does not pose any real contradictions or issues in my opinion. RS-SL-26: This I agree to, because it presupposes knowledge of the future event, whereas the previous phrase did not. Therefore i agree to remove this phrase here. However, I would then change 'was growing' to 'grew' in order to make the sentence sound better. RS-SL-29: Agreed to this and all the Dwarves and Men additions. Great find, I'd totally forgotten about that section! RS-SL-31 to 34: I actually don't think we need to insert the name Ithryn Luin. Having it in the essay in Volume 3 is for me enough information. Also, in this new timeline, they cannot go into the East with Saruman, since they journeyed there long before he came to Middle-earth. As to the scene with Cirdan, I intentionally did not include this here. I want to keep the structure of Of the Rings of Power where Gandalf's possession of Narya is a secret revealed only at the end. Tolkien made that choice deliberately and I see no reason to go against that. This way it has more dramatic and thematic weight. Heirs of Elendil: I think that we should incorporate the Heirs into the text of our drafts. I have done so in some later narratives of Eldacar/Valacar and of Narmacil, where Heirs had much more information. But I do not think we should prefer it over Appendix A. Appendix A is the final and correct form, and is often the most verbose. Therefore, I think that any new information from Heirs should be simply inserted into the Appendix A additions, like you have done in RS-SL-01.5. I ultimately see no real reason to prefer Heirs of Elendil as the base text as opposed to Appendix A. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 06-18-2018 at 01:22 PM. |
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#4 | |
King's Writer
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RS-SL-10.2: I agree that these is supperficial.
RS-SL-10.4: I don't think that we have an other source that Berúthiel actually hated the cats becuase they jumped at her. We might skip the last part from ', but she kept some ...'. RS-SL-18: This would then be the first mention of the Shire at all. I don't think that is okay. RS-SL-31 to RS-SL-34: The Blue Wizards could have come back to meet Saruman. But I am okay with not mentioning them together with Saruman. But what actaully speak against this: Quote:
Heirs of Elendil: Well, the reason to prefer this text above Appendix A is that considering a 4 volume book bound in red leather the volume 4 would contain The Hobbit, LotR including the Appendicies and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. But I am not adamant on this. However we might consider the inclusion of the Heirs of Elendil, if we accept repetition between our narrative text and the Appendicies of LotR, why not with as well with volume 3? Respectfully Findegil |
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#5 | |||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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RS-SL-10.4: Agreed.
RS-SL-18: Very well, we can remove it. RS-SL-31/34: I do not agree with this addition, only because it is not true that they had no names, since we have listed two names for each of them already in the story. Therefore if we must name them, let it be thus: Quote:
Heirs of Elendil: I think I disagree. This is the text setting forth the contents of the actual Red Book of Westmarch: Quote:
Volume 1): The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings Volume 2), 3), 4): Translations from the Elvish (our work) Volume 5): Lost materials, but no doubt many of the things that make up the Appendices, such as the Geneologies and the later part of the Tale of Years. Therefore, to say that Appendix A is included with LotR is not true. This is from the preface of Appendix A: Quote:
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#6 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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I actually discovered that nowhere outside of the Council of Elrond chapter is it said that the capital of Arnor moved from Annuminas to Fornost, so I propose we edit it in like so:
Quote:
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#7 |
King's Writer
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I am not fully in agreement with what you said about the Red Book and our work, but I agree to the conclusion you have drawn.
I as well agree to the rest of your proposals. Respectfully Findegil |
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#8 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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In my quest to add in the rest of the LotR prologue, the bulk of usable material in Concerning Hobbits should go in this chapter. Here is how I lay it out.
I made a slight restructuring change. RS-SL-28 through RS-SL-30.6 I have moved to the very end of the chapter, and made some changes. Therefore, the paragrah from ORP talking about the Necromancer goes right into the paragraph talking about the Istari. Quote:
RS-SL-30.97: I removed this bit, because it gives a real world genus for a plant, something that would not exist in-universe. |
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#9 |
King's Writer
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FY-HL-04.5: This is supposed to be a sup-chapter title, right?
RS-SL-30.97: We do not wrigth in-univers texts. We even left in references to modern english. So I think this can stand. With all the rest I agree. Respectfully Findegil |
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#10 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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FY-HL-04.5: Indeed.
RS-SL-30.97: If you think so, then I will leave it. |
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#11 | |
King's Writer
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While reading here and there in our drafts I missed parts of the Istarí essay. It is a question where to fit them in. Part of it could be used in the chapter Note on the Five Wizards, but I think it is better placed in the Third Age material:
Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#12 | ||||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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This actually fits remarkably well here, as I did not think possible. Perhaps we should consider including also the subheading FY-HL-04.4: The Istari. I think this edit is very good, but I do have some changes to suggest.
Where it says in RS-SL-31.2: Quote:
Quote:
I am unsure why you ended RS-SL-31.2 where you did. The following paragraph of the essay you have not taken up, but I think it contains key information about the colors of Saruman and Radagast and Gandalf, so I think we should take it (with some edits): Quote:
In RS-SL-32.5b, there needs to be made a small edit: Quote:
Those were the only changes I saw. This was done really well! This is a different note, but gandalf made a point of wanting to include a portion of the essay given here in the chapter Of the Five Wizards and if I like his inclusion there, I may think it should be removed from this chapter, but I will wait until he gives an example of his draft. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 12-14-2018 at 11:03 PM. |
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#13 | ||
King's Writer
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RS-SL-31.25 (sorry if this nomination is confusing, but RS-SL-31.2b would be a variant of RS-SL-31.2 e.g. taken up a § more): I see the issue with ‘They first appeared’, but I would like to solve it differently. What about this:
Quote:
RS-SL-31.2b, RS-SL-31.3, RS-SL-31.4& RS-SL-32.6: Okay, I agree to take up the next § (therefore RS-SL-31.2b), but the edits don’t look quite right to me. As I always told, I am a ‘combiner’ for me it is not a contradiction that we are told, that the Blue Wizards came in the second age and worked all that time in the east and when it says later in this chapter that they passed into the east with Curunir. Curunir felt by all save Varda as the head of the order comes in the Third Age and wants to visit the East where the two Blue Wizards have been working all this long years. So what would be more natural for Curunir to call on them to meet him at the havens and give him a guided tour through ‘their territory’? And this visit to meet Curunir was probably the only time that the two Blue Wizards were seen in the North-West of Middel-earth. Thus from the view point of a chronologists of the Third Age ‘of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin ‘the Blue Wizards;’ for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned’. (Therefore I would the original unchanged text in RS-SL-32.6.) If seen thus it is fortunate that the text makes a difference between Curunir and Mithrandir as ‘the first to come’ and ‘the last to come’ versus Radagast and the Blue Wizards as ‘others there were also’. In that way we have two marked arrivals: the one of Curunir and the one of Mithrandir. Of the other three it is unclear when they arrived. For the Blue Wizards that is understandable because they came much earlier and probably even not via Lindon; to reach their final destination in the East other havens used by the Númenoreans at that time would be more suitable like Tharabad or Lond Daer. And for Radagast it is said that he came together with Gandalf, but since he was ‘only’ a companion like Pallando, the marked arrival is that of Gandalf. That means I would not change the original text at RS-SL-31.4 as this is just a reminder about the Blue Wizards that we already introduced much earlier. But it remains RS-SL-31.3, where I agree that we have to do something. But as might be expected after such a long discussion, I suggest some other change then ArcusCalion. In what follows the removed sentence marked RS-SL-31.6 is included because I wanted a paragraph change here and to provide the source for my insertion at RS-SL-31.3: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#14 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Almost all of these changes are acceptable to me. However, I do not think we can use your RS-SL-31.3. We have no confirmation that the Blue Wizards did not land at the Grey Havens, and indeed there is barely any reason to think that they did not. Therefore, to assert that they did not land there is inventing a fact that Tolkien never stated, and indeed, implied the opposite. Therefore, I still much prefer my own editing in this place. I also await gandalf's draft of his vision of the piece to be place in Of the Five Wizards.
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 12-17-2018 at 05:24 PM. |
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#15 | |
King's Writer
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You are right, since my editing is ‘asserting’ that the Blue Wizards didn’t come via Lindon, we can’t use it. But I would as well not use such a strong reminder that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age as you did. So what about:
Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#16 |
Quentingolmo
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That is fine, but can I ask why you don't want to repeat that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age?
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#17 | |
King's Writer
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Sorry, I should have explained that directly. It will make things easier if the decision that they have come in the second age is re-discussed with a different result. Since I am sure this discussion will occur, I think it is best to be prepared as far as possible for every possible outcome. It is clear that any other decision then the one we have taken will have a great impact on the chapter Note on the Five Wizards. But with the editing we have done here and in the chapter The End of the Third Age they might be unaffected.
Let us assume the decision would be changed to: we are not sure enough to include a clear statement of the arrival time of the Blue Wizards into our text. Then probably the content of Note on the Five Wizards would be include in volume 3. If the decision would be changed to: we are sure they came in the Third Age, then again the placement of the content of Note on the Five Wizards in volume 3 would be an option, but then of course a placement here would be an possibility as well. But anyhow, if we would make a clear statement here, without need, we would have to remember it and change it if the decision is changed. Reading farther in that same mood we should probably change RS-SL-32b and RS-SL-32.2. This is my suggestion: Quote:
Findegil |
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#18 |
Quentingolmo
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I think we can keep it for now, and if we change our consensus on the Second Age change, then we can revisit this.
I like this change. After reading gandalf's draft for the addition of some of the Istari material to Of the Five Wizards, I agree with his placement, and so it needs to be removed from this draft. We can call that marker RS-SL-31.35. |
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#19 |
King's Writer
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Agreed.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#20 | ||||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
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This is a pretty remarkable chapter, the variety of sources used is staggering. I had not known about that "Realms of Tolkien" interview, Findegil sure knows a lot of obscure sources. With that said, here are my comments:
1) In RS-SL-16, we should change "It is" to "It was" for consistent tense. 2) In RS-SL-21 the text reads (without markings) Quote:
3) In the "Concerning Hobbits" section, I propose a few small changes which I think will make it flow better and read more naturally. I propose we change "Eriador" in RS-SL-29.5 to "that land". The way the text currently stands is as follows: Quote:
4) There is a typo near the end of RS-SL-30.8: Quote:
5) The section on the Istari felt very unorganized and disjointed to me. I will first make some comments on how the text is currently structured, then propose a re-organization of it. The first paragraph is an introduction and is mostly linguistic. The second paragraph describes how men perceived them, while the third describes that they are actually Maiar who came over the Sea and were met by Cirdan at the Grey Havens. The fourth paragraph describes the order in which they came. The fifth paragraph contains almost entirely redundant information: they came over the Sea and met Cirdan, they appeared in the likeness of Men, the order in which they came. There are a few pieces of information which are new or state explicitly what was previously only implied, namely that Cirdan knew where they came from and he revealed this information to Galadriel and Celeborn. At the end of the first paragraph it says that "...none save maybe Elrond, Cirdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came". This says "maybe" but later we make it explicit: Cirdan knew and revealed this information to Galadriel and Celeborn. The fifth paragraph gives the names Curunir and Saruman, then these names are introduced again in the sixth paragraph. The end of the fifth paragraph says the Blue Wizards "went into the east of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales." Then the sixth paragraph says "they passed into the East" and gives some guesses as to what happened to them. The second paragraph says they began "to move Elves and Men to beware of their peril" then in the fifth paragraph "to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds." Sorry if this sounds hyper-critical, I realize the redundancy is because many of the sections are later additions and they come from a variety of sources. Here is the idea for my proposed re-organization: first is the linguistic introduction to "Istari" and "Wizard". Then a physical description of them as they are seen by men before they truly make themselves known. As the shadow of Sauron grows, they interact with Men more, who think they are Elves. But they are actually Maiar sent by the Valar. After this is a paragraph describing what they look like when they first arrive but not giving their names. Then the names and dwelling places of Saruman and Radagast are given. After this is speculation about the blue wizards. And finally, a description of Gandalf. Here is the draft, I have re-numbered all of the edits: Quote:
RS-SL-31.3: This first paragraph is about the Wizards in general, including the Blue Wizards. The statement "they belonged solely to the Third Age" is not true of all the Wizards. I removed "solely" to make the statement more ambiguous. RS-SL-31.4: There is no ambiguity later that Cirdan, Galadriel and Celeborn know where the Wizards came from. RS-SL-32.2: This is more physical description and ends with the information that they had many powers. Then the next sentence says they did not reveal these powers. In between RS-SL-34.1 and RS-SL-34.2: I didn't make changes here, but I have a concern. This paragraph explicitly states the Valar had "the consent of Eru" but in the "Five Wizards" chapter this is ambiguous. Should we remove the ambiguity in that chapter? RS-SL-36.3: I have removed the general statement that Saruman "came into the realm of Gondor and there abode" and replaced it with his more specific dwelling place. RS-SL-36.5: After the name and dwelling place of Curunir comes the name and dwelling place of Radagast. Then in the next two paragraphs are the names and "dwelling places" of the Blue Wizards and Mithrandir. |
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#21 |
King's Writer
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1) RS-SL-16: Agreed.
2) RS-SL-21: Since Falastur is a name under which Tarannon toke up his kingship. I think we should put in both names. 3) RS-SL-29.5: I am okay with the change ‘{Eriador}that land’. RS-SL-29.6 & RS-SL-29.7: Here I am as well okay with the change ‘{The Harfoots}They’ in RS-SL-29.6. But I would leave ‘The Harfoots’ stand in RS-SL-29.7 – if we change it here as well we will create 3 sentences in a row starting with ‘They’, which I think awkward. 30.05: Agreed. 4) Thanks fro pointing it out. 5) I am not against the reordering. But I have to check that more in detail, and I am sure that we must work on the editing and the editing markers. It is a no go to have the same marker for different editings. If you feel it necessary to renumber, please change the middle letters. Respectfully Findegil |
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#22 | |
King's Writer
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Coming back to the reorganisation of The Istari part of this chapter. As I said, the editing markers have given me a headache, and I think we must change them to allow keeping track of the development as good as might be. Therefore I will at first give here as list of the corresponding editing markers. First will be the markers of our old version, then the corresponding one of gandalf85’s editing and last the combined one that should be used farther on. The list is sorted in the order in which they appear in the text as edited by gandalf85. Please mark that I do not propose hear any change in the content. My idea about that will follow later on. In this first part of my post, I am only concerned with the editing markers:
RS-SL-31 / RS-SL-31.1 => RS-SL-31g RS-SL-31.2 / RS-SL-31.2 => RS-SL-31.2g n.a. / RS-SL-31.3 => RS-SL-31.23g n.a. / RS-SL-31.4 => RS-SL-31.4g RS-SL-31.25 / RS-SL-32.1 => RS-SL-31.25g n.a. / RS-SL-32.2 => RS-SL-32.2g n.a. / n.a. (gandalf85 put in a paragraph brake between ‘... and heeded them little.’ and ‘But as the shadow of Sauron ...’. I like that change, but it is an editorial act that we have to mark. => RS-SL-32.25g n.a. / RS-SL-33.1 => RS-SL-33.1g n.a. / RS-SL-34.1 => RS-SL-34.1g n.a. / n.a. => RS-SL-34.3g (new addition, see commentary below) RS-SL-31.35 / RS-SL-34.2 => RS-SL-31.35g n.a. / RS-SL-35.1 => RS-SL-35.1g n.a. / RS-SL-35.2 => RS-SL-35.2g RS-SL-31.3c / n.a. => RS-SL-31.3g This marks the beginning of the sentence about Saruman that goes on with: ‘was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; ...’. Since this first part is an editorial addition, I think a maker is to be used here. n.a. / RS-SL-35.3 => RS-SL-35.3g RS-SL-31.6 / RS-SL-35.4 => RS-SL-31.6h (proposed by me to be changed a bit, see commentary below) RS-SL-31.5 / RS-SL-36.1 => RS-SL-31.5g RS-SL-32.5b / RS-SL-36.2 => RS-SL-32.5g n.a. / RS-SL-36.3 => RS-SL-36.3g n.a. / RS-SL-36.4 => RS-SL-36.4g RS-SL-32.8 / RS-SL-36.5 => RS-SL-32.8g n.a. / n.a. => RS-SL-32.9g (new addition, see commentary below) RS-SL-33b / RS-SL-36.6 => RS-SL-33g RS-SL-34 / RS-SL-36.7 => RS-SL-34g n.a. / RS-SL-37.1 => RS-SL-37.1g n.a. / n.a. => RS-SL-37.2g (new addition, see commentary below) RS-SL-32.7 / RS-SL-37.3 => RS-SL-32.7g RS-SL-34.5 / RS-SL-38.1 => RS-SL-34.5g n.a. / RS-SL-38.2 => RS-SL-38.2g RS-SL-34.6 / RS-SL-38.3 => RS-SL-34.6g I kept the markers of gandalf85 as much untouched as possible, I only re-established the old markers, where a corresponding change had already occurred and I changed the number of new changes only where unfortunately the number used by gandalf85 had already been in use. Where I had to give new numbers, I tried my best to choose them in good relation to the neighbours. To mark that all these changes are in correspondence with gandalf85’s re-arrangement I added the small letter ‘g’ after the number. Over all this leads to a somewhat unorganised numbering, but it keeps the correspondence as good as possible, which is of greater importance. Okay after that painstaking organisational work, let’s come to the content: I will not try to comment on the formatting issues I found. Instate I will give below the text, as I think it should, be with all the corrected editing markers and as nicely formatted as I could manage it. The content (after cleaning) should be nearly the same as proposed by gandalf85, which means I agreed to his re-arrangement. On the few differences that I introduced I will comment here before giving the text: I found a typo within RS-SL-34.1g: ‘... but clad in bodies of as of Men, ...’ must be ‘... but clad in bodies as of Men, ...’. RS-SL-34.3g: I added here ‘old but vigorous,’ from ORP. This fact is mentioned in the text, but I think it is worth repeating here. RS-SL-31.6h: It is clear that we should not give the information that Círdan gave Narya to Gandalf, but that Círdan at once referred Gandalf higher than most should probably be kept. My reasoning is that we later tell that Saruman discovered that Círdan had given Narya to Gandalf, so I think we should give some starting point for his suspicion and research. RS-SL-32.9g: I did not check how this was in the original text, but in our editing, only by counting of it becomes clear that Radagast is the ‘Brown Messenger’. And that counting could only be done after reading through all the sub-chapter. At this point in the chapter only White is given to Saruman. In the next paragraph Blue is given to the Wizards going of the stage to the east and only in the last paragraph Grey is given to Gandalf. Especially since we changed the order in which we mention the Istari here from that in which they came to Middle-earth as given earlier in this chapter, I think we should make it here easier for our readers, by building an editorial addition calling him here including the epithet from LotR ‘Radagast the Brown’. RS-SL-37.2g: This is a snippet take from another place of the Istari essay that gandalf85 did not include when he rearranged the text. I think it works very well here to explain why we do know so little about the pair. Okay, here at the long last the text as it stands after my editing: Quote:
Findegil |
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#23 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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I am really sorry about making you re-do the editing markers. I had re-organized it so much, I wasn't sure how to modify the markings. What you did makes sense, I should have thought about not repeating editing marks.
RS-SL-34.3g: I agree to this addition. RS-SL-31.6h: I agree with this. RS-SL-32.9g: The original text does not explicitly associate him with Brown in this section, so I like this addition. RS-SL-37.2g: I like this change. |
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#24 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I agree to all of this, marvelous work! This is exactly the kind of improvement fresh eyes bring to a project!
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#25 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Posted by gandalf85:
Quote:
![]() Coming back to gandalf85’s first post: Quote:
a) external timing / validity of the source: The choosing scene from ‘Five Wizards’ is the later text, so it might be that, if we have to change something we must remove the explicit consent of Eru here. b) internal timing / necessity of Eru’s consent: In the Second Age when the Istari were choosen and Alatar and Pallando came to Middle-earth one might think that the Valar would not need the consent of Eru for such an act. But in the Third Age after the catalysem at Fall of Númenor when Curumo, Aiwendil and Olorin came to Middle-earth such an explicit consent might have been felt necessary. Under this interpretation what is made ambiguity in ‘Five Wizards’ is no longer the consent of Eru, but the timing when it was asked for and given. As there is an interpretation possible with out changing anything, I lean to letting the text stand as it is in both places. I have another change to propose:[quoute]... but that was after he returned from his many journeys RS-SL-36.3h{and}><ORP into the East, and when he returned he> came into the realm of Gondor and there abode RS-SL-36.35g{.}><ORP at Orthanc in the Ring of Isengard, which the Númenóreans made in the days of their power.> RS-SL-36.4g<ORP Curunír went most among Men, …[/quote] Respectfully Findegil |
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#26 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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Regarding the ambiguity: Yeah, that makes sense, I also think leaving the text as is is the best choice.
I also like Fin's latest change. |
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#27 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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When I worked at The Hunt for the Ring I found this nice text that I think we should use here at the end of the sub-chapter [i]The Istari[/b]:
Quote:
Findegil |
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#28 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Oh! Good find!
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#29 | |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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This is a great addition! Man, I really need to get the LotR Companion. I also wanted to comment about one part:
Quote:
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