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#1 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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This is the first draft of the chapter Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion.
This chapter is a thoroughly mixed bag of sources, and so there is no base text. Because of this, I have marked every instance of any text used, so as to be easy to follow. The markings are: FY-HL-xx for all the headlines for the Fading Years. GHA-SL-xx for all expansions and changes to the narrative. Some conventions of my writing: Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalized text, normally only used for general changes, as well as changes which are a part of replacement that is not grammatical. Underlined Text = text changed for grammatical reasons in the process of combining and inserting and removing. <source example> = additions with source information ...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source. Quote:
GHA-SL-01: We start off with Appendix A setting the stage for Gondor in its glory with Atanatar Alcarin's rule. GHA-SL-02: This from the older draft of the Tale of Years details the movements of the Hobbits westward, and their settling at Bree. This was the only textual version of this I could find, so I think it is worth including. This is also the only place I figured I could place it, since it belongs here chronologically. I updated the tenses to reflect the rest of the chapter. GHA-SL-03: Here we turn to Arnor breifly. This is the chronological time to discuss this, as we want to allow the entire leadup to, and the duration of the Kinstrife to be a continuous narrative. GHA-SL-04: This footnote was given during the list of kings, but I thought it was worth including. GHA-SL-05: One more Tale of Years addition about the movements of the Hobbits. GHA-SL-06: Here we return to the Gondor narrative. This version from an earlier draft of Appendix A is much much longer and more detailed than the final version, so I used this instead. GHA-SL-07: We return to Appendix A, removing the much shorter account of which we have just replaced. GHA-SL-08: This seems like the right place to introduce the Northmen, and the best introduction of them that we have is in the Cirion and Eorl chapter of Unfinished Tales. After that addition, we return to Appendix A. GHA-SL-09: This is again from an earlier draft of Appendix A. The story of the marriage and Romendacil's thoughts on it are much expanded in this version, and so I decided to use it instead of the final Appendix A account. GHA-SL-10: This is a tidbit from an earlier draft not given in the final version. GHA-SL-11: This is also a tidbit not given in the final version. GHA-SL-12: This addition from the Tale of Years is the only text I could find (apart from some difficult bits in the drafts for Appendix F or the Prologue of LotR) that details the founding of the Shire. Therefore I think this works well here. I placed this here since we need to mention the creation of the Shire before we describe the Great Plague, which mentions it. GHA-SL-13: Since this is no longer the Tale of Years, I removed this phrase. GHA-SL-14: This account in Of the Rings of Power has some new details that I thought were worth including. GHA-SL-15: Here we describe the effect of the Plague on Arnor, and the fall of Cardolan. GHA-SL-16: Here we take an addition from the Cirion and Eorl chapter of UT in order to describe the effects of the Plague on the Northmen in order to set the stage for the next story. FY-HL-06: This title is self-explanatory. It fits with the material we were discussing. I used it as a subheading instead of another chapter because I want this chapter to have all three of the evils of Gondor in it, and this one is the last evil, so it makes sense to have it be a subheading under the Gondor chapter. GHA-SL-17: Here we use Appendix A to introduce us to the narrative as the third evil of Gondor. GHA-SL-18: This account of the death of Narmacil II is much more detailed than the brief sentence in Appendix A. GHA-SL-19: Here we return briefly to Appendix A in order to move the narrative forward and mention some small details. GHA-SL-20: Now we begin the narrative of The Northmen and the Wainriders from the UT chapter Cirion and Eorl. GHA-SL-21: This addition is based on the endnotes, where it is remarked that Minohtar is the king's sister-son. I could not figure out how to work it into the final paragraph, so I placed the information here at his introduction. GHA-SL-22: Here we begin to work out the notes on the continuation of the story. Most of my changes are simply to turn CT's commentary into a narrative. GHA-SL-23: comment of CT removed. GHA-SL-24: comment of CT removed. GHA-SL-25: comment of CT removed (it is sad that we have no name for the general, but it cannot be helped). GHA-SL-26: This is a continuation of the notes. GHA-SL-27: This was what I based 21 on. GHA-SL-28: Since the narrative ends before the story finishes, we must return to the much shorter account in Appendix A. GHA-SL-29: I know this addition belongs chronologically before the Wainrider attack, but I think it fits better afterwards, as we can look back and see the attacks on Arnor and Gondor occurring at the same time. Plus, now that the action is over, we can turn back to more mundane matters. GHA-SL-30: This addition is from the second appendix to The Battles for the Fords of Isen, and details the ownership of Gondor over the lands near Dunland. This also introduces the Dunlandings into the narrative, which allows us to use them later on without much explanation. GHA-SL-31: In other places it says that Enedwaith was not owned by anyone, and so I changed this to reflect that. Another difficult chapter, but I think more straightforward than last one. It's very action-packed, and one of the longer chapters by far. Enjoy! |
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#2 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Sorry for the long delay, but real life had some time consuming demands in the last few days.
First of all I have to say that this editing makes a very good read. I agree to most of the editing’s. But as always there are some exceptions, as before often additions: GHA-SL-08.5: I think that after the end of the long insert of GHA-SL-08 the ‘These’ of the next sentence has lost its proper reference. The text as it stands is understandable, but it does not flow rightly while reading. I suggest to replace it with The Northman. GHA-SL-11.2 & GHA-SL-11.4: We tell in this chapter (beside other things) the history of the war between the rebels of Umbar and Gondor that followed from the kin-strife. And in this there was in ‘interlude’ with Aldamir slain in battle with Harad and Umbar and Vinyarion gaining himself the name Hyarmendacil II, which I think we should add here: Quote:
Beside that I think we can be sure that ‘Minardil, son of Eldacar’ is a slip of the pen. It is nowhere said that Vinyarion (Hyarmendacil II) died childless, while such feature is in all other cases commented on even in the very short Appendix A. For reasons of safety I would simply make no statement here at all. GHA-SL-16: As Northmen were the first to feel the impact of the plague, (the text says that the plague came out of the east). Which means that it had been first in Rhovanion. Therefore I think this passage must be placed a bit earlier. I know that you used it as a knid of introduction for the Wainraider subchapter, but that does not seem necessary to me, since we have introduce the Northmen already in this chapter and told news about them at some points. I would incorporate it here: Quote:
GHA-SL-29: Would this not be better placed between the victory of Calimethar and Marhwini and the new assault on Gondor in which Ondoher died? I know that you preferd to have this after the action, but the foretelling for the northern Kingdom is not prevented by your placement and in the new position another attack from the Wainraiders is anyhow expectable. Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#3 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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No worries Fin, real life must always take precedence!
GHA-SL-08.5: Agreed GHA-SL-11.2/11.4: Agreed, good finds! GHA-SL-13.2/13.4/13,6: Agreed, awesome finds! You just missed the first {Kastamir}[Castamir], and also {Angomaitë}[Angamaitë]. I would also remove the parentheses around GHA-SL-13.4. Since we made the addition so much longer, we don't need them. GHA-SL-16b: Agreed. GHA-SL-25: I agree, it is very unfortunate. However, there is nothing we can do. GHA-SL-29b: Agreed, this works fine. GHA-SL-30: I see what you mean, I've been having similar doubts. I found a better place for it to fit in the chapter The House of Eorl. Therefore I agree to remove it from here. Thank you for these suggestions Fin, they are all excellent! Last edited by ArcusCalion; 06-22-2018 at 08:55 PM. |
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#4 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Reading The Heirs of Elendil for the discussion of the next chapter, I found this addition:
Quote:
Findegil |
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#5 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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GHA-SL-14.5: Agreed, once again, great find! I was not as thorough as I thought with my examination of the Heirs of Elendil text clearly!
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#6 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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After we decided to add in the bits from the Prologue to LotR about the Finding of the Ring, I think we should take as much of the Prologue as possible. Therefore I have tried to find the best places for all of it to fit. Here is where I placed some of it, in a replacement of GHA-SL-12:
Quote:
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#7 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Agreed, very nicely integrated.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#8 | |||||||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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I copy this post from gandalf85, because I think this is where it should have been:
Quote:
Findegil |
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#9 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Grammatical issues: Thanks for spoting these.
Suggestions/questions: 1) Yes, we thought that the importance of that protection was not fully understood. I agree to the reordering. 2) ‘neglected’ does not mean that it was fully stopped. The meanings I found are ‘uncared-for’; ‘bedraggled’. While ‘cased’ and ‘unmanned’ suggest the final end guarding Mordor. At least that is how I saw these quotes. That why I don’t see a contradiction but step by step degeneration. 3) Agreed, very nice final result, but the editing should be a bit easier in this way: Quote:
Quote:
Maybe we should as well move GHA-SL-29 and GHA-SL-30, since as they stand they are separating to connected narratives. I would move GHA-SL-29 to this place: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#10 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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2) OK, a step by step degeneration makes sense.
3) Looks good. 4) That works. 5) I agree to where you moved GHA-SL-29. Moving GHA-SL-30 right before the subheading FY-HL-06 The Northmen and the Wainriders makes sense to me. Last edited by gandalf85; 01-10-2019 at 04:54 PM. |
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#11 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Sorry for the late response. All of these changes look great to me, thank you once again for the astute analysis gandalf!
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#12 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Aug 2023
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 43
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