Intelligence of Orcs

[Firefoot]

There have been a couple of things that have aroused my interest in this topic. One is that there seem to have been a lot of topics about orcs lately. The other is that I was talking to someone the other day and they said something to the extent of "If you rated orcs' intelligence it would be in the negative." But as I thought about this I realized it probably isn't true. For example, listening to, er... reading over Shagrat and Gorbag's conversation, they seem to have definite mental capabilities - not what I would call stupid. Another example is Merry and Pippin's captors. Those Uruks, especially Ugluk and Grishnakh, show some signs of "smartness". In fact some of the things that orcs do are downright cunning.

What do you think? Where do orcs land on an intelligence scale? Go ahead - if you disagree with me, say something.

[Alatariel]

I agree that orcs and uruk-hai possess cunning and intelligence. I think that the idea that orcs are basically mindless fighting machines comes more from non-Tolkien related books, as well as RPGs like D&D which have a very low maximum inetelligence for orcs. I don't see why orcs would possess a lesser intelligence than other sentient creatures in ME, and Tolkien did not seem to rate his creatures on scales of "more intelligent vs. less intelligent." Perhaps orcs may seem to be more stupid than, say, humans or elves, because they are more easily controlled by forces like Sauron. I would attribute this to a lesser willpower, not a lesser intelligence. Just a thought. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Phervasaion]

But, then again Orcs always fight to much amongst themselves which doesnt show much intelligence. Also, i heard somewhere that Orcs were insuperior at fighting hand to hand compared to Elves and men. The orcs do have some intellingent conversations but alot of them result in them fighting with each other.

[Altariel]

Perhaps the fact that orcs fight so much among themselves is demonstrative not of a lack of intelligence, but of a lack of tolerance? I'd imagine that, um, Orcish society probably teaches them to have a "me first" kind of attitude.

I don't believe that Orcs are any less intelligent than any other beings in Middle-Earth... but their circumstances probably don't allow for a whole lot of independent thought. As someone said, it was mentioned that their hand-to-hand combat abilities are inferior... once again, it's probably something they learn... Sauron and Morgoth both seemed to prefer the "let's overwhelm them with numbers" tactic, so single combat maybe didn't become necessary very often...?

Except in that unfortunate incidence where poor old Fingolfin went up against Morgoth... ai.

[Kalimac]

Native intelligence doesn't necessarily preclude nastiness and infighting - just look at the graves of Academe if you want to see that demonstrated [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. The Orcs are odd cases, anyway; they've certainly got brains, and cunning, and can speak a language (albeit the Black Speech, but still, it's a language). So I'd say their intelligence level is pretty decent, though I'm not sure I'd compare it to the Elves - we never see an example of an Orc who has anything remotely resembling Galadriel's abilities, for example.

I think the answer isn't that the Orcs are unintelligent, but that they're almost completely unable to control their own most basic instincts. I don't mean this in an off-colour way, but rather that their desires to kill, to dominate everyone else and each other, to live entirely in the short-term, are so strong in them that they have to work actively to keep them down. The leaders are the ones who manage to beat down this impulse, at least for a time, and so strategize their way upwards. Ugluk, for example, doesn't give into the temptation that 98% of his subordinates have, which is to lay into Merry and Pippin right now and despoil them - *despite* the fact that they know perfectly well what bad consequences there would be from Saruman for doing this. Grishnakh, of course, does give in. But the impression I get from the Orcs is that the vast majority of them are unable to think twenty minutes ahead. They fight because they enjoy it, they dominate because they enjoy it, and they use all their intelligence in developing these two skills.

Whether it's realistic for an entire race to share these characteristics and survive more than a few generations is another question, and that's not the issue here. It seems that when Melkor tortured the Elves, he seems to have concentrated on turning them into creatures who delighted in killing and domination. Good for his purposes, of course, but it also brought some unexpected drawbacks, like all that infighting. Just my $0.02.

[Tar-Alcarin]

They, i am only guessing here, that they are much like Lennie in "Of Mice and Men." Kind of stupid and slow witted. But then again, The Uruk-hai seem to know who they are. Countless Cries of "We are the Fighting Uruk-hai" durng helms deep support this theory. But orcs in general are slow witted and not the brightest bulb in the bunch. That would be the elves.

[elenquesse]

I'd say the Orcs are slow-witted because they were bred for only one purpose: to kill. They don't really need anything else to serve this purpose for their masters. Therefore, I think the "intelligence" displayed by the Orcs in Cirith Ungol was simply a display of their singlemindedness.

[doug*platypus]

Actually, if you compare the conversations at the Green Dragon to the conversations between orc captains, I think I have to conclude that Orcs are of much the same intelligence as hobbits. That, of course, does not include the Four Travellers, Bilbo or Farmer Maggot.

I think that Orcs left to their own devices and given the same opportunities as other races may have had some chance at a decent civilisation. Their carving and painting may not have been up to scratch, but as graffiti artists they were second to none. Unfortunately, Sauron or Morgoth never really lavished the care and attention on them that better masters would have. I guess I see them a little bit as the underprivileged street kids of Middle-Earth, who turn to gangs, robbery and murder, but not because they are inherently evil. I have a lot more pity for Orcs than the average reader does.

But while the average orc may have been a match for the average hobbit in Trivial Pursuit, I think that the leaders of the Orc race were far inferior to the leaders of the other races. Tolkien frequently shows us exemplary elves, men, ents and dwarves. But we never once see a truly exceptional orc. Grishnákh is the shrewdest orc we come across, but he's not really all that super-intelligent when it comes down to it. Maybe the truly smart ones get killed off as a matter of course. Orcs don't seem to be the kind of people who really value intelligence. Our own society is quite different; as Homer Simpson once said:

and the weak and nerdy are admired for their computer-programming ability!

[Noxomanus]

I think they were quite smart and capable of complex conversations and actions,but were completely brainwashed and trained only for war. They easily fought among each other because they were probably been convinced of the inferiority of their own existence and that anyone opposing you could be killed.

[Finwe]

In their world, intelligence wasn't valued as much as strength was. Thus, the strong ones would survive more than the smart ones. That's not to say that strength is everything, but at some point, even the smartest person in the world couldn't stand up against the strongest person in the world.

[Annalaliath]

I think that the Orcs were intelligent enough. I mean haven’t you all seen the quote that pops up above once in a while, about Ocs counting.

Just because you are evil and kill things for fun does not mean that you are an idiot. Some may have been but I think that they were smart in their own twisted way. I mean Hitler was a genius and his men were not all stupid. Some of them were geniuses too.

I think that we as a world have come to the conclusion that if something is evil and kills for fun, then it is generally stupid. I think that is a misconception. This leads to stupid mistakes on our parts and we pay for it with our lives. So I think that the Orcs have intelligence. As my mother is saying that lack of intelligence precludes evil. They had a society and they made weapons and armor so therefore they are not stupid. Orcs were evil from birth, as twisted creations of Iluvitar.

The Orcs knew who was who, had names and had a language. They also knew what was going on and were able to organize attacks on middle earth.

[Teleri]

Orcs are definitely not stupid, but it is true that we never meet an orc Gandalf or Galadriel. I think the orcs have a different kind of cunning that is more suited to their purpose. And we must not forget the reasoning skills of some of the captains.
Also, I can think of at least one place where I was thinking along the same lines as one of them. Remember Gorbag's little "You'd best put your thinking cap on, if you have one." speach? Did anyone else read that, and think "Oh finally Sam's gotten some recognition." Up until then even wise people like Faramir have treated Sam as inferior.
"Do not speak before your master, who's wit is greater than yours." I think Gorbag got a better introduction than Faramir.

[willkill4food]

But you have to consider the fact that I doubt neither Morgoth or Sauron spent much resources on the education of Orcs, probably not much more than handing out cards with picture of men, elves, hobbits, and dwarves with a giant "KILL" written over the picture...

Also when you look at the 4 orcs that seem to posses inteligence in lotr, Gorbag, Shagrat, Ugluk, and Grishnakh. All have one thing in common, they are all high ranking leaders. Possible Sauron notices inteligence in his servants and promotes based on the most capable?

-willkill

[Alatariel]

I doubt neither Morgoth or Sauron spent much resources on the education of Orcs

Just because someone is uneducated does not mean he is unintelligent.

it is true that we never meet an orc Gandalf or Galadriel

Yes, but Gandalf and Galadriel have both been on ME for thousands of years. Given the same lifespan, an orc could probably reach the same level of wisdom. Then again, this is picking out two of the most wise people in all of ME and then measuring an entire culture against them. This would be like taking Socrates and Aristotle and comparing them to uneducated people in a third world country. It is not a fair judgement.

[Lhunardawen]

Intelligence is a relative characteristic. Some may see Orcs as intelligent because they are capable of speaking, understanding, remembering, and others. Probably compared to other foul races, they are. But if they are compared to the Elves or Wizards, they certainly aren't. But I am amazed at how cunning they can be in terms of war and fighting, though I am not exactly one for their violence.

Did they really lose all of their Elven characteristics as a result of Morgoth's mutilation?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:32 AM December 27, 2003: Message edited by: Lhunardawen ]

[Reyna Evergreen]

In a movie I saw, probably Star Wars or the like, one of the character states:

The ability to speak does not make you intelligent

Is it safe to say that a cunning orc is not necessarily an intelligent one? Acting for one's own advantage may seem cunning, but in the long run, it may not be the most intelligent thing to do. The orcs who wanted to eat Merry and Pippin were idiots, enough said, although the one who decided to capture them for himself- and pardon my memory and lack of names- was considered cunning and perhaps intelligent. Wasn't he killed in the end, anyway?

It's true that there is some speck of brains among the orcs, but not enough to actually plan something deft and subtle. Their act is more chop, hack, kill and eat. There might be the oddball, or a mutation, every few generations who would be able to push himself to better things, but he's always the exception.

Orcs are brainless, tools for the greater mind's schemes.

Or I could just be totally missing the point here.

[Finwe]

I'm inclined to agree with you there, Reyna.

Orcs just didn't NEED intelligence, the way that Elves or Men needed it. They could easily survive for a normal Orc lifespan, without a lot of intelligence. Men or Elves, on the other hand, needed to be smart to live as long as they did, especially in the Third Age.

[Lobelia]

If we regard THE HOBBIT as part of canon - and JRR did go back and re-write to make sure it was - the orcs/goblins did seem to have their own cities and rulers less than a century before the events of LOTR, so they must have been able to co-operate enough to keep those going. It was also stated that they were very good at technology of the loud bang variety and making things from iron. Now, Tolkien didn't approve of technology, so this wasn't meant as a compliment, but the fact remains that if you can make - and presumably design - things technological, you aren't dumb! The orcs of Goblintown in THE HOBBIT weren't being ordered around by the likes of Saruman or Sauron at that time.

[Tar-Alcarin]

This would be like taking Socrates and Aristotle and comparing them to uneducated people in a third world country. It is not a fair judgement.

Amen to that.(not aman Finwe [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

Orcs probably would have semi-bright bulbs in the bunch. Shagrat and Gorgab seemed pretty smart in the books, except the elvish warrior thing with sam. But orcs dont need to be smart to survive, thy ust need to kill, eat, and die to make suaron happy. Melkor probably made them intentionally not smart so that they could never question his authority.

That being said, was there ever an Orc Rebelion?

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

If an orc was born with a mind with the potential to become like gandalf or galadriel, it would not matter, because he would not be allowed to become someone that powerful. For sauron, it might even seem better to kill the most intelligent orcs, so that they do not ralize that they are not benifiting from obeying him. Or he simply crushes their spirit and then promotes them, so that they become the leaders and use what intelligence they have.

Orcs have the potential to become powerful, like elves, but they never will because of their culture.

I think.

[Olorin_TLA]

But cunning is what you need to have a good army. Take a look at the Two Towers chapter, "the Uruk-hai" - do you really think that if Ugluk or Grishnahk had acted like the Northern Orks, that they would have survived for as long as they did?

[Tar-Alcarin]

I think that the Uruks were the exception to that rule. They were smart, not as smart as our heros granted, but smart notheless. They do seem to know who they are, and why they have to bring Merry and pippen back to orthanc. They know that saruman thinks they have a "Powedrful Elvish Weapon" that and they dont have to speak in the black speach. But orcs are just stupid, sure there might be a bright bukb in the bunch but they will most likely die anyways.

[Finwe]

There is always going to be that occasional "bright bulb" amid the crowd of "dim bulbs." In Orcish society, there were many more "dim bulbs," than in Human or Elf society, ergo, there were fewer "bright bulbs."

But if you consider the fact the the very first orcs were mutilated and tourtured Elves, and the fact the tourture often breaks the minds of the victims, then add in the fact that while the later orcs were not tourtured (aside from day to day orcish life) but retained the broken appearance of their forebearers, isn't it possible that they also received the psycological effects of the tourture? That would ensure that their desire to kill things, especially Elves, continued into all the generations, and would stop an especially bright orc from starting an uprising.
Just a thought...

[Teleri]

"isn't it possible that they also received the psycological effects of the tourture?"

I know it's horrible, but that made me laugh a bit. I could just see Snaga in a psychiatrist's office: "Post Tramitic Stress? May the Black Pits take you!"

[Olorin_TLA]

Well Tolkien says that Orks are filled with hate, and unless occupied with some kind of enemy (Gondor, Elves, etc) they'd kill each other.

[Teleri]

Which is why it is very good for them that they have tons of enimies.
If orcs are tortured elves, then maybe they have the intellect of an elf, but lack the emotion and understanding to use it, so they are left with exceptional logic skills when they are able to overcome more primitive urges (must...eat...the halfling!).
In my opinion, orcs are smart when their not stupid. And if that made sense, it was smart too.

[Finwe]

Exactly.

By the Third Age, I don't think that the Orcs were even capable of a high level of intelligence, except for a few. Think about it. Generations of broken minds were breeding for hundreds of years. Could you really expect to have a brilliant kid when you and the rest of your ancestors had been mentally, emotionally, and physically tortured, and your mind broken?