Why wasn't Radgast part of the Council of Elrond? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Noxomanus · 03-17-2003, 10:35 AM

I can't think of any real good reason besides him "being away" for his absence at such an important event.Can you?

Son of Fire · 03-17-2003, 11:00 AM

well, it seems as if all of the people in the council of elrond were called there by lluvatar or thereby seemingly assembled randomly, therefore it can be said that he was not meant to be there. It is a possibility that he was too "simple" in the words of saurumon, or simply because he was away. Tolkien seems to use radagast as a symbol for present middle earth, tooo sijmple and too trusting, accidentally leading their friends into danger.

03-17-2003, 11:01 AM

I always had gotten the feeling that Radagast was so interested in his birds and animals that he had withdrawn from more important affairs, and maybe had also lost some of his powers and abilities. The Istari were not all as strong as Saruman and Gandalf.

Birdland · 03-17-2003, 11:34 AM

Perhaps Radagast would have been of aid, if Gandalf could have contacted him. But remember that Gandalf wasn't even sure that he had found the One Ring, or what Saruman's intentions were.

Once he did find out, he had to get back to Rivendell lickety-split and find Frodo. I just don't think there was any time to go out of his way to find Radagast, sit him down, and explain the situation to him.

I suppose it could be argued that he could have sent out Elf riders to find the Brown Wizard, but the fact that he didn't might suggest that Tolkien's Grey Wanderer had lost faith in the powers of his fellow Maier. (With good reason, I might add.)

[ March 17, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Mornie Alantie · 03-17-2003, 12:13 PM

Gandalf was the only Wizard that stayed to his true purpose, The blue were lost, Saruman betrayed them, and Radagast gave up the problems of Middle earth and just went to live a life around animals. Gandalf was the only wizard that sailed back into the west with the ships so that basically says he gave up the job.

Legolas · 03-17-2003, 03:43 PM

The same reason he's never mentioned as being in the White Council. It's not complicated in the least.

He just wasn't interested.

**lindil** · 03-17-2003, 05:33 PM

Quote:

I suppose it could be argued that he could have sent out Elf riders to find the Brown Wizard, but the fact that he didn't might suggest that Tolkien's Grey Wanderer had lost faith in the powers of his fellow Maier. (With good reason, I might add.)

Lost Faith? But my good Birdland, Radagast's spreading of the message of 'send all news of the black riders to me at Isengard' saved his hindquarters!

Radagast had to a degree gone native, I acknowledge, but there is no reason to suspect he had become untrustworthy, if that were the case Saruman would have picked up on it and brought him onto his side.

Curious that R. never seems to have met Fangorn ["G. is the only wizard that really casres about trees..."].

Voralphion · 03-17-2003, 05:50 PM

If Radagast had been at the council of Elrond, what assistance could he have given. He had become enamoured of living things and had no interest in the greater matters of middle earth. Aside from possibly contacting the eagles to provide intelligence, I don't believe he would've been of much help.

Scott · 03-17-2003, 10:13 PM

I'm not so sure Radagast was as helpless as you might think. Although nature and animals were his specialty, he was still an Istar and most formidable against any enemy. I tend to think that having an extra wizard around would never hurt. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Lush · 03-17-2003, 10:49 PM

Radagast was busy smoking up and hanging out (hm, he reminds me of someone, anyone want to guess who?... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) I dunno, I view him as the sort of guy who would gladly forgo Elrond's Council for an opportunity to just relax under a tree somewhere.

[ March 17, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

**lindil** · 03-17-2003, 11:05 PM

I agree that Aiwendil would have been all but useless in the counsel, yes he was an Istar/Maia but he would have been scarcely more productive than Bombadil [ though Tom would at least have been entertaining!]

Radagast in all liklihood only rtes[pnded to an emergency call from Saruman to go find Gandalf.

Radagast by JRRT's own account had withdrawn into a sort of tree-hugging eco-wizard, useful to his neighbors [and who knows Rhosgobel could not have been far from Dol Guldor - so maybe he was an observer of sorts] but not in the front lines like Gandalf, Aragorn, Glaladriel or Gondor, Rohan or even in the second line of defense [Imladris, Erebor, Lindion, etc] he had left the path of active resisitance against Sauron and gone native, but not anti-White COuncil.

Beren87 · 03-17-2003, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Radagast by JRRT's own account had withdrawn into a sort of tree-hugging eco-wizard,

I always thought of him as more of the animal-loving type, not neccesarily tree-hugging. Just a vegetarian.

Scott · 03-17-2003, 11:12 PM

Interesting thought, Lindil. While reading your post the idea came across to me on the purpose of Radagast in the mythology.
Was Radagast a comment on those peace lovers of the time who shunned all war and battle. I know that Tolkien abhorred war and what it stood for, but he did nevertheless fight in the Battle of the Sommes himself showing that he did believe in standing up for what he believed in.
I'm not inferring, or even sure how I perceive his view on Radagast not being in on the battle. I can see it both as being a praise and a lecture towards the stance.
Sorry if I strayed too far from the topic.

Thalionyulma · 03-18-2003, 03:21 AM

I would have to agree with Mornie Alantie and lindil. Radagast had gone native... concentrating on the animals of Middle Earth. Perhaps it was in his nature being a maiar of Yavanna (if I'm not mistaken).

But it couold be argued that for the good of Middle Earth in general, he could have helped a great deal.

I found it odd that he didn't know that Saruman was destroying the surrounding forests for his purpose. Although perhaps at that time Radagast hadn't been aware of the imbalance(?) of nature in that area.

Aiwendil · 03-18-2003, 11:18 AM

Don't forget Gandalf's concern when he is captured by Saruman - he fears at first that Radagast too has been snared by Sauron and this seems to be truly a grave concern.

03-18-2003, 03:30 PM

I just think that he wasn't concerned about the People of Middle Earth. It's says so, in the Silmarillion. He just loved the animals.

I wanna know what happened to those two Blue Istari, though. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-18-2003, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Why wasn't Radgast part of the Council of Elrond?

Because he was a rubbish wizard. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Birdland · 03-18-2003, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Because he was a rubbish wizard

Even worse, Saucepan - because he was a bit player!

Son of Fire · 03-19-2003, 07:14 PM

In the eloquent words of JRRT himself, "What success they [Alatar and Pallando] had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron. (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 211). So, we can assertain thet they were cult leaders and similar to Saurumon, but in different regions and with different aims and probably less power. We know that Allatar was chosen by the Vala, but Pallando was added as Alatar's friend, so Alatar was probably more powerfubecause the original three (alatar, Saurumon, and Gandalf) seem to be more powerful than the afterthoughts (Radagast who was added by Yavanna and Pallando). The power that they had must have corrupted them because, unlike in Valinor, they were essentially the most powerful in Middle Earth.

Chancellen the True · 03-20-2003, 12:44 AM

It seems that Radagast needs some defending around here. I think that after Saruman's deception was apparent, his spirit was broken and he never forgave himself. He probably went off into the forest, lamenting over his transgretion.

His apparent lack of action I believe is due to him working on a different level than his brethren. The Istari were sent to ME to motivate and push the peoples to great deeds in the events that were to take place. While Gandalf and Saruman were to help people, Radagast was there to motivate the spirits of wood and stream. Maybe he stirred Gwahir(sp?) and Beorn to action. If he had stayed in the fight, I'm sure he could of stirred to action other creatures and spirits. Maybe he could have talked to Tom Bombadil and convinced him to help (chuckle), or at least lend him some power or aid from The Old Forest. Of course, this is all a lot of maybees and speculation, but I always root for the underdog. Another big problem is that Radagast himself needed to be motivated and pushed. I think he was a rather poor choice for the job by the Valar. The Valar have to take a hit on this too. I mean, give me a break, they are the Valar. They got one out of five right, pretty bad for a pantheon of gods.

As far as Radagast being a poor wizard, I disagree. He wasn't flashy like the others; but, being a shapechanger and conjurer is still very helpfull. A battle starts and he summons a pack of worgs and turns into a rabid grizzly bear and look out. Go! Radagast go!

Thalionyulma · 03-20-2003, 05:27 AM

I do not believe Radagast was a bad wizard... or a bit player. Who could say that he DIDN'T send the Gwaihir to aid Gandalf?

Perhaps he was too close too his order (of Yavanna), that he felt more for the birds and beasts of ME.

As for the Blue Wizards - Tolkien never mentioned much more about them except that they disappeared into the east. Or was there more writen about them in the other books???

Ailios · 03-20-2003, 03:54 PM

Elronds sons went to Rhosgobel but Radagast was not there. That could mean that they intended to inform him about the situation and perhaps get some news from him. I think the council believed he was quite important

Son of Fire · 03-20-2003, 04:50 PM

LOOK UP about 2 posts, that's the rest of what happened to them. My last post...

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-20-2003, 04:50 PM

There is some information on later concepts of the Blue Wizards in 'Late Writings' HoME 12, in which they are said to enter in the S.A and Tolkien implies that they succeeded in their mission, to cause rebellion in the 'good' mannish tribes of the East, thus weakining Sauron's power.

They're names were Morinhetar (Darkness-slayer) and Romestamo (East helper.)

Son of Fire · 03-20-2003, 04:52 PM

I just posted about that, by the way, the rest of what JRRT is in my previous post, bus since you didn's see it:
In the eloquent words of JRRT himself, "What success they [Alatar and Pallando] had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron. (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 211). So, we can assertain thet they were cult leaders and similar to Saurumon, but in different regions and with different aims and probably less power. We know that Allatar was chosen by the Vala, but Pallando was added as Alatar's friend, so Alatar was probably more powerfubecause the original three (alatar, Saurumon, and Gandalf) seem to be more powerful than the afterthoughts (Radagast who was added by Yavanna and Pallando). The power that they had must have corrupted them because, unlike in Valinor, they were essentially the most powerful in Middle Earth.

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-20-2003, 04:56 PM

Son of fire-why did you make the same post twice?

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-21-2003, 09:49 AM

For the avoidance of doubt, [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] = joke!

03-17-2003, 10:35 AM	#1
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	Why wasn't Radgast part of the Council of Elrond? I can't think of any real good reason besides him "being away" for his absence at such an important event.Can you? __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

03-17-2003, 11:00 AM	#2
Son of Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 50	well, it seems as if all of the people in the council of elrond were called there by lluvatar or thereby seemingly assembled randomly, therefore it can be said that he was not meant to be there. It is a possibility that he was too "simple" in the words of saurumon, or simply because he was away. Tolkien seems to use radagast as a symbol for present middle earth, tooo sijmple and too trusting, accidentally leading their friends into danger. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

03-17-2003, 12:13 PM	#5
Mornie Alantie Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Somewhere above earth cause people say i should come down to it Posts: 226	Gandalf was the only Wizard that stayed to his true purpose, The blue were lost, Saruman betrayed them, and Radagast gave up the problems of Middle earth and just went to live a life around animals. Gandalf was the only wizard that sailed back into the west with the ships so that basically says he gave up the job. __________________ Instead of pepper spray, you pack a glass bottle and scream "Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!!!" at muggers.

03-17-2003, 03:43 PM	#6
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	The same reason he's never mentioned as being in the White Council. It's not complicated in the least. He just wasn't interested. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

03-17-2003, 05:50 PM	#8
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	If Radagast had been at the council of Elrond, what assistance could he have given. He had become enamoured of living things and had no interest in the greater matters of middle earth. Aside from possibly contacting the eagles to provide intelligence, I don't believe he would've been of much help. __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

03-17-2003, 11:01 AM	#3
Arayáviëiel Guest Posts: n/a	I always had gotten the feeling that Radagast was so interested in his birds and animals that he had withdrawn from more important affairs, and maybe had also lost some of his powers and abilities. The Istari were not all as strong as Saruman and Gandalf.

03-17-2003, 11:34 AM	#4
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Perhaps Radagast would have been of aid, if Gandalf could have contacted him. But remember that Gandalf wasn't even sure that he had found the One Ring, or what Saruman's intentions were. Once he did find out, he had to get back to Rivendell lickety-split and find Frodo. I just don't think there was any time to go out of his way to find Radagast, sit him down, and explain the situation to him. I suppose it could be argued that he could have sent out Elf riders to find the Brown Wizard, but the fact that he didn't might suggest that Tolkien's Grey Wanderer had lost faith in the powers of his fellow Maier. (With good reason, I might add.) [ March 17, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

03-17-2003, 10:13 PM	#9
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	I'm not so sure Radagast was as helpless as you might think. Although nature and animals were his specialty, he was still an Istar and most formidable against any enemy. I tend to think that having an extra wizard around would never hurt. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

03-17-2003, 10:49 PM	#10
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Radagast was busy smoking up and hanging out (hm, he reminds me of someone, anyone want to guess who?... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) I dunno, I view him as the sort of guy who would gladly forgo Elrond's Council for an opportunity to just relax under a tree somewhere. [ March 17, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ] __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-17-2003, 11:05 PM	#11
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I agree that Aiwendil would have been all but useless in the counsel, yes he was an Istar/Maia but he would have been scarcely more productive than Bombadil [ though Tom would at least have been entertaining!] Radagast in all liklihood only rtes[pnded to an emergency call from Saruman to go find Gandalf. Radagast by JRRT's own account had withdrawn into a sort of tree-hugging eco-wizard, useful to his neighbors [and who knows Rhosgobel could not have been far from Dol Guldor - so maybe he was an observer of sorts] but not in the front lines like Gandalf, Aragorn, Glaladriel or Gondor, Rohan or even in the second line of defense [Imladris, Erebor, Lindion, etc] he had left the path of active resisitance against Sauron and gone native, but not anti-White COuncil. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-17-2003, 11:12 PM	#13
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	Interesting thought, Lindil. While reading your post the idea came across to me on the purpose of Radagast in the mythology. Was Radagast a comment on those peace lovers of the time who shunned all war and battle. I know that Tolkien abhorred war and what it stood for, but he did nevertheless fight in the Battle of the Sommes himself showing that he did believe in standing up for what he believed in. I'm not inferring, or even sure how I perceive his view on Radagast not being in on the battle. I can see it both as being a praise and a lecture towards the stance. Sorry if I strayed too far from the topic. __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

03-18-2003, 03:21 AM	#14
Thalionyulma Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: across the sea Posts: 295	I would have to agree with Mornie Alantie and lindil. Radagast had gone native... concentrating on the animals of Middle Earth. Perhaps it was in his nature being a maiar of Yavanna (if I'm not mistaken). But it couold be argued that for the good of Middle Earth in general, he could have helped a great deal. I found it odd that he didn't know that Saruman was destroying the surrounding forests for his purpose. Although perhaps at that time Radagast hadn't been aware of the imbalance(?) of nature in that area.

03-18-2003, 11:18 AM	#15
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Don't forget Gandalf's concern when he is captured by Saruman - he fears at first that Radagast too has been snared by Sauron and this seems to be truly a grave concern.

03-18-2003, 03:30 PM	#16
Annatar, Lord of the Gifts Guest Posts: n/a	I just think that he wasn't concerned about the People of Middle Earth. It's says so, in the Silmarillion. He just loved the animals. I wanna know what happened to those two Blue Istari, though. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

03-19-2003, 07:14 PM	#19
Son of Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 50	In the eloquent words of JRRT himself, "What success they [Alatar and Pallando] had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron. (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 211). So, we can assertain thet they were cult leaders and similar to Saurumon, but in different regions and with different aims and probably less power. We know that Allatar was chosen by the Vala, but Pallando was added as Alatar's friend, so Alatar was probably more powerfubecause the original three (alatar, Saurumon, and Gandalf) seem to be more powerful than the afterthoughts (Radagast who was added by Yavanna and Pallando). The power that they had must have corrupted them because, unlike in Valinor, they were essentially the most powerful in Middle Earth. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

03-20-2003, 12:44 AM	#20
Chancellen the True Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NYC Posts: 22	It seems that Radagast needs some defending around here. I think that after Saruman's deception was apparent, his spirit was broken and he never forgave himself. He probably went off into the forest, lamenting over his transgretion. His apparent lack of action I believe is due to him working on a different level than his brethren. The Istari were sent to ME to motivate and push the peoples to great deeds in the events that were to take place. While Gandalf and Saruman were to help people, Radagast was there to motivate the spirits of wood and stream. Maybe he stirred Gwahir(sp?) and Beorn to action. If he had stayed in the fight, I'm sure he could of stirred to action other creatures and spirits. Maybe he could have talked to Tom Bombadil and convinced him to help (chuckle), or at least lend him some power or aid from The Old Forest. Of course, this is all a lot of maybees and speculation, but I always root for the underdog. Another big problem is that Radagast himself needed to be motivated and pushed. I think he was a rather poor choice for the job by the Valar. The Valar have to take a hit on this too. I mean, give me a break, they are the Valar. They got one out of five right, pretty bad for a pantheon of gods. As far as Radagast being a poor wizard, I disagree. He wasn't flashy like the others; but, being a shapechanger and conjurer is still very helpfull. A battle starts and he summons a pack of worgs and turns into a rabid grizzly bear and look out. Go! Radagast go! __________________ "Shall we mourn here deedless for ever, a shadow folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the thankless sea?" Feanor at Tirion upon Tuna

03-20-2003, 05:27 AM	#21
Thalionyulma Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: across the sea Posts: 295	I do not believe Radagast was a bad wizard... or a bit player. Who could say that he DIDN'T send the Gwaihir to aid Gandalf? Perhaps he was too close too his order (of Yavanna), that he felt more for the birds and beasts of ME. As for the Blue Wizards - Tolkien never mentioned much more about them except that they disappeared into the east. Or was there more writen about them in the other books???

03-20-2003, 03:54 PM	#22
Ailios Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forochel Posts: 28	Elronds sons went to Rhosgobel but Radagast was not there. That could mean that they intended to inform him about the situation and perhaps get some news from him. I think the council believed he was quite important __________________ Ailios

03-20-2003, 04:50 PM	#23
Son of Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 50	LOOK UP about 2 posts, that's the rest of what happened to them. My last post... __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

03-20-2003, 04:50 PM	#24
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	There is some information on later concepts of the Blue Wizards in 'Late Writings' HoME 12, in which they are said to enter in the S.A and Tolkien implies that they succeeded in their mission, to cause rebellion in the 'good' mannish tribes of the East, thus weakining Sauron's power. They're names were Morinhetar (Darkness-slayer) and Romestamo (East helper.) __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

03-20-2003, 04:52 PM	#25
Son of Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 50	I just posted about that, by the way, the rest of what JRRT is in my previous post, bus since you didn's see it: In the eloquent words of JRRT himself, "What success they [Alatar and Pallando] had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron. (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 211). So, we can assertain thet they were cult leaders and similar to Saurumon, but in different regions and with different aims and probably less power. We know that Allatar was chosen by the Vala, but Pallando was added as Alatar's friend, so Alatar was probably more powerfubecause the original three (alatar, Saurumon, and Gandalf) seem to be more powerful than the afterthoughts (Radagast who was added by Yavanna and Pallando). The power that they had must have corrupted them because, unlike in Valinor, they were essentially the most powerful in Middle Earth. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

03-20-2003, 04:56 PM	#26
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Son of fire-why did you make the same post twice? __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

03-21-2003, 09:49 AM	#27
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	For the avoidance of doubt, [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] = joke! __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!