A Question

[Boromir88]

While I was scrolling through Middle-earth memes, a pretty random question popped into my head.

It's fair to say Tolkien didn't believe in "Absolute Evil" as nothing is evil to begin with and everything is susceptible to the "Fall."

What is a more entertaining (and/or emotionally impactful) story to you, a villain's redemption or a hero's fall?

There may have been a brief time Sauron was capable of redemption and that could have been an interesting story. But I think I've always had a soft spot for Boromir's story, because it is a hero's fall. I believe it's also why I became attracted to Isildur's story, that is arguably an even more tragic fall than Boromir's story. The hero of the Faithful, brought down by Sauron's ring.

Kind of related, Gollum's story. While I don't think anyone could view Smeagol as a hero (I recall Tolkien writing he was a thief even prior to finding the Ring). Yet, he fell even lower and Gandalf's comment "It's a sad story" has stayed with me after all these years of being a fan. Gollum's story ends with him as a villain, but ironically a savior (even if, unintentionally so).

[Bêthberry]

I can't say one or the other. It all depends on the specific character and situation and how well or explicitly/deeply the event is depicted or characterised. And I guess how important the event is.

I have no emotional attachment to Denethor's end, other than horror at what he attempts to do. I don't much care about Boromir's fall because I read him as an arrogant, proud man full of his own privilege. (wasn't impressed with his contribution to the Council of Elrond.) Even Turin's story to me is more about vanity and arrogance , character flaws, rather than fate, although I'm probably generalising too much about that story.

Frodo's end is excruciating and complicated and painful. So also is Gollem's because of how he nearly atones but Sam misinterprets him. That makes his fall--literally--so appropriate. One does not deserve his fate; the other does.

Perhaps "tragic" involves the idea of undeserved rather than earned?

[Boromir88]

Thanks BB, I'll try to come back with some more ideas later, but a note on Boromir.

I think the reason I've always been drawn to Boromir's story is his path follows both the Hero's Fall and the Villain's Redemption. He had the qualities of being a great captain, the front line leadership I would say Tolkien admired ("I was in the company that held the bridge, until it was last cut down behind us." - The Council of Elrond). As opposed to Denethor's leadership, which he might have criticized as a "Chateau General" in WW1. Whether the trashing and criticism the "Chateau Generals" received after the war was deserved or not, is neither here nor there. I just want to point out Tolkien I think admired the front-line leadership, and gives that as a quality to all of his heroes. The old king Theoden says "I will not be taken like an old badger in a trap." Compared to Denethor who sits and waits "even spending the lives of my sons."

Do we get another character who goes down the same path. It follows both the "Hero's Fall" and the "Villain's Redemption?"

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

While I was scrolling through Middle-earth memes, a pretty random question popped into my head.

It's fair to say Tolkien didn't believe in "Absolute Evil" as nothing is evil to begin with and everything is susceptible to the "Fall."

What is a more entertaining (and/or emotionally impactful) story to you, a villain's redemption or a hero's fall?

There may have been a brief time Sauron was capable of redemption and that could have been an interesting story.

Did Sauron really consider being redeemed and beg forgiveness, or was it more a matter of being overawed by the Valar, and the utterly crushing defeat of Morgoth? I recall he was ordered to return to Valinor to face judgement, but he bided his time and basically hid himself away when the Valar took their eyes off the ball.

As far as "absolute evil" and Tolkien, it would seem that there were instances were redemption was not even offered or considered. Take the Orcs, for instance. Was there ever a moment in canon where Orcs were given the chance for atonement? I do not remember any such offer for their race; in fact, as an aside in The Hobbit, Tolkien says of the "goblins"...

“It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not yet advanced (as it is called) so far.”

The Hobbit may not be considered hardline canon, but it does offer a glimpse into Orkish behavior. Tolkien never mentions love among Orcs, or mercy, or family, save for a one off mention of Bolg being the son of Azog (mom, having perhaps been eaten, is not mentioned).

[Mithadan]

I suspect that the reason some of us are having difficulties in responding to Boromir's initial topic is because there are relatively few examples of a "villain's redemption" or a true "hero's fall" in Tolkien's middle earth writings. Boromir was not a true villain but was overwhelmed by the Ring's influence. Similarly, Thorin was overcome by his lust for the dragon's hoard. Both recovered their wits, perhaps too late, but they did so. In my view, neither is an example of a villain's redemption nor a hero's fall.

The hero's fall that is most clear in LoTR is, of course, Saruman. He was a member of a high and honorable order, was given a specific task in furtherance of the common good, and abandoned that task in favor of self-aggrandizement. One might argue that Morgoth and Sauron similarly fell, perhaps Sauron more so than Melkor, but we see little of either before they were overtaken by the impulse to evil.

[Boromir88]

Orcs are a much bigger can of worms to open at the moment, so I'll leave that be for now. I'll just say that I agree. I don't think there's anything, within the canon, to support orcs were capable of redemption. However, I do think having orcs be beyond redemption did bother Tolkien's Catholic beliefs.

They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote ’irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimatly good.)~Letter #153

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Did Sauron really consider being redeemed and beg forgiveness, or was it more a matter of being overawed by the Valar, and the utterly crushing defeat of Morgoth? I recall he was ordered to return to Valinor to face judgement, but he bided his time and basically hid himself away when the Valar took their eyes off the ball.

This is debatable. I recall Sauron suing for pardon from Eonwe (Eonwe, being recognized as the greatest of Sauron's order). Eonwe says it's not within his authority to pardon him, so he must go before the Valar. If I also recall correctly, Tolkien wrote Sauron didn't go because of his pride, which would suggest he wasn't in truth "redeemed", at least I don't think anyone could say in an official capacity.

With Boromir, I think it's far more clear cut. Boromir confesses his sins to Aragorn, Aragorn forgives them. And then later Gandalf after hearing Boromir's sins says (parahrasing here from The White Rider): "He escaped in the end. I am glad." This seems like an official pardoning, Boromir confesses to his king, the King and one of the Maiar declared Boromir's sins were forgiven.

This never officially happens with Sauron, but it doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't in truth, repentant for his sins committed under Morgoth.

He [Sauron] still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.~Morgoth's Ring

I think this suggests Sauron had 2 falls, because Sauron's "virtue" is what led to his initial fall (joining Morgoth), as well as the cause of his relapse (making the Rings of Power). "Relapse" - to me, suggests there was a period (however brief) Sauron was sincere in his efforts to heal Middle-earth after Morgoth's defeat.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would submit the case of Denethor as a hero's fall.

[Bêthberry]

My search for puns has uncovered a bit more about Boromir. I'm not yet near responding about Denethor but again I'm less keen on considering Boromir a true hero; he lacks wisedom and unlike Gandalf the Grey and Aragorn is rarely prone to considering his own error, until, of course, he submits to the greatest one.

In the Council of Elrond not only does he speak proudly and vaingloriously, but even after hearing of Saruman's fall--a betrayal he calls it--and even after the retelling of the fateful events of Isildur's bane, he is still eager to suggest that the Free Lords use the Ring themselves, for good he claims, dismissing the possibility of even the good side falling to evil. "Take it and go forth to victory!" he says.

Boromir does provide important force and strength on Caradhra (and fights valiantly in Moria) but outside the Door to Moria, as all are losing patience at their inability to open the door, Boromir excercises his frustration by casting a large stone into the dark water. Even Frodo questions the action. While it is unclear what provokes the Watcher in the Water, it is shortly after that disturbance of the water that the Watcher appears to threaten the Fellowship. Boromir might have the needful quality of a military leader but he lacks one important quality of leadership, wisdom.

Perhaps as I move on in my search for more puns, I will find cause to address the question of Denethor.