Shelobe not in TTT!! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Banazîr · 02-27-2002, 09:36 PM

"the Shelob scene occurs at the end of the Two Towers book. However, Jackson has chosen to push it back to the beginning of The Return of the King. One of the reasons for this is that the scenes between Sam, Frodo, Gollum, and Faramir have been expanded, perhaps to build upon Faramir's character and tie plotlines together a little more tightly. Jackson declined to comment how The Two Towers would end, but said viewers wouldn't be disappointed.I don't mind at all if they expanded characters interaction between each other, in fact it is awesome, but the way that PJ is talking about the end sounds like if it will be a utterly unexpected end, and to me it means another big change...indeed only the fact that Shelob will be removed at the beginning of ROTK instead of end of TTT is a huge change, but then what kind of other end could make viewers really happy and not disapointed that could be done??..I can't see any other end then Frodo's "death". Will it end in the stairs of Cirith Ungol? Gollum clutching at Sam running behind a crazy Frodo? It surely cannot end this way, then it means another revision, isn't it?

Lush · 02-27-2002, 09:41 PM

Ype, sounds like it. I personally don't mind such changes, as long as the spirit remains. And as for Shelob in general...Maybe it's a good idea she's being pushed back to RotK. Maybe by then I will be mature enough not to freak out at the sight of her.

Glenethor · 02-27-2002, 09:47 PM

Hmmmm...I wonder. I think it is the most obvious thing in the world, to make the Shelob scene the cliffhanger. I guess PJ doesn't want to be obvious. The next best place to leave Frodo and Sam, I guess, is just as they leave the crossroads and enter into Morgul Vale. Then there is Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas on the Paths of the Dead. If PJ holds to form, he won't do that as a flashback as it was when they are talking to Merry and Pip in the Houses of Healing. So, we may see that. Finally, there is the scene where the winged Nazgul approaches Isengard just after Pip looks into the Palantir. No one has asked PJ about the Wraiths on Wings making their appearance in TTT that I am aware of. Even Gandalf and Pip racing toward Minas Tirith would work, so I don't necessarily think that the actual closing scenes need be improvised.[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Glenethor ]

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 02-27-2002, 09:53 PM

Oh, I'm very interested in how PJ's going to pull this off.I've been thinking about starting a thread along these lines...It makes sense actually. In the Two Towers there are two climaxes: 1 - Helm's Deep (and it's after-effect, the breaking of the staff of Saruman) 2 - Shelob's lair.Ah... PJ's solved a major cinematic problem, which is the Two Towers is really two books, not one. He's chosen to focus the story on one of the 'Two Towers', Orthanc, and the defeat of Saruman.The wild action-adventure in Rohan will be balanced by cutaways to disturbing/thoughtful scenes in Emyn Muil and Ithilien.Very good. That will give us time to get to know Frodo, Sam and Gollum very, very well. And build up the power of the ring so it's not lost in the flood of events. Very important. Otherwise what happens at Orodruin will make no sense.

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 02-27-2002, 10:00 PM

Hi Lush, Glenathor... seems we were all posting at once.Glen, I've wondered about whether I'd do Frodo's 'death' as a cliffhanger. In another thread I decided I'd be against it, too melodramatic. Also, Frodo's 'return' would be pretty near the beginning of the next movie, so rather than being a dramatic entrance, it would feel like a practical joke on the audience. Then there's the length of time between the second movie's release and the last. Waiting one week after a cliffhanger is bad enough. A year??? I'd launch a posse to tar and feather him.

Lush · 02-27-2002, 10:09 PM

Yesss, we will get to know Sam, Frodo, Gollum, and FARAMIR. My prrrrrecious. Great points, Maril! And good luck to PJ.

Glenethor · 02-27-2002, 10:41 PM

Mari,Well, I'd have it go just a bit further, when Frodo is being carried off and Shagrat (I think it's Shagrat) tells the other orc (Gorbag?) that Shelob hadn't actually killed Frodo...and then show the Choices of Master Samwise...That seems to be the obvious choice. The audience will know Frodo is alive but captive, and that Sam intends to 'keep his promise' by going after him. A lot of people are quite mystified about PJ's choice here. I know I am, but I think he's earned enough of my trust not to get too worried about it...yet...However, the more I think of it, I think the final scene could be Frodo, Sam, and Gollum staring down at Minas Morgul as the Witchking and his hosts issue forth toward Minas Tirith. That could be preceded by Aragorn's confrontation with Sauron with the Palantir and his embarking on the POTD. Remember, I think all three remaining parties of the Fellowship have their own cliffhanger scenes, eh? PJ has options here.No, if I was a betting man, I'd bet on the unleashing of Sauron's Morgul forces as the final scene.[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Glenethor ]

Airetauriel · 02-28-2002, 10:12 AM

And the last line of TTT???'Who can now hold the fords when the king of the nine riders comes? I am too late, even if my errand is acheived, there will be noone I can tell. But it must be done....'Or something like that anyway? What do you think?Airetauriel

Mayla Took · 02-28-2002, 11:01 AM

I am very excited for TTT film. I think it is part of the excitment and anticipation to see what changes and ommitons that PJ has made! I would not mind if he pushed Shelob into ROTK either. He seems to like to mix and match scenes into different books. Such as he did in FOTR when he moved Boromir's death into the end of FOTR. I have compleat faith that it will turn out well!

Glenethor · 02-28-2002, 11:32 AM

BTW, sorta OT, but do any of you know who is going to be playing the Witch King of Angmar In RoTK? Hint: He was in the first film under different guise.

Mayla Took · 02-28-2002, 12:12 PM

Hummmmm! I don't know! Is it Sean Bean or maybe Marton Csokas?? Who?

Glenethor · 02-28-2002, 12:33 PM

The guy who played Lurtz, the Uruk-Hai Chieftain in FoTR.

the_master_of_puppets · 02-28-2002, 01:08 PM

no! they simply have to end after the shelob scene! i cant imagine it any other way!!! Thats such a good place to end: a cliff hanger. people who aint read it thinking frodo is dead, wondering how sam will cope alone, un stuff- where else could they end it? Ahhhhh no PJ this is one change u shood not make! and plus, is it really wise to start ROTK with a pure stress action scene with shelob? i dont think so....aint wise to get all het up in the first 15 minutes of a movie! however, when we have all 3 on video it wont matter coz u just watch em in order anyway.

Enedhil · 02-28-2002, 03:30 PM

Ahhh,I was about to embark on a 'damn, he cannae do that' but after reading through all the comments...yeah, moving shelob might not be a bad idea. maybe ending it with shelob closing in on frodo, or at least, the last we see of them in this film, would work, and then cutting back to ummm... *mumbles* the others....*mumbling still* can't remember what bit exactly...So long's they get ya to leave the cinema going again, then i'm happy

Aralaithiel · 02-28-2002, 05:39 PM

Rumors, hearsay, and gossip be damned! I'm gonna go see TTT and ROTK! I really am looking forward though to seeing Legolas (commences drooling) shield surfing!

Elven-Maiden · 03-01-2002, 05:35 PM

I think I trust PJ enough to know that whatever he does, it'll be good. He really did a good job on the first movie, and he is a professional director, so it'll be good.

Rose Cotton · 03-02-2002, 04:56 PM

ARE YOU SERIOUS!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!! HOW COULD PETE DO SUCH A THING!!! It would have been the perfect cliffhanger if half the audiance thought Frodo was dead for a year. And PJ has to ruin that. Plus Shelob is a great climax for the second movie! Plus Gollum's betrayal is an important part! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*TAKES A DEEP BREATH*Are you sure this is a definite change?!

Anarya SilverBranch · 03-02-2002, 07:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I really am looking forward though to seeing Legolas (commences drooling) shield surfing! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh I agree Aralaithiel. They picked the perfect actor to play Legolas. Orlando Bloom is soo cute!But getting to the subject, I would not be surprised if PJ really did move the shelob scene like he moved the part where Boromir died in the Fellowship. I don't care though, I'm just happy that they made LOTR into a trilogy and not one single two hour movie like they were originally going to do.

Kalimac · 03-03-2002, 02:08 AM

I don't know...my first thought was "No! It's one of the best scenes in the book!" But what with Helm's Deep and the storming of Isengard there's an awful lot going on already; the scene with Shelob might just seem like piling on the action too much (Come on, you know Peter Jackson isn't going to be exactly glossing over the battle scenes ) - under those circumstances Shelob be more effective if saved for the last movie.The really unfortunate thing is that ending the movie with Frodo being alive but taken by enemy would be an incredible emotional punch - sort of like the ending of "The Empire Strikes Back" times about 300. Sam would hear the Orcs saying that Frodo is alive, chase them, hurl himself against the gates too late - wham, end of movie. On the whole, I'm optimistic. Before FOTR came out I was feeling kind of dubious but ended up loving the movie - the changes just worked, somehow. With any luck that will hold true for the next two as well.

Balefalathiel · 03-03-2002, 04:04 AM

It can't be true!!!! PJ, you have just lost a friend..

02-27-2002, 09:36 PM	#1
Banazîr Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 19	Shelobe not in TTT!! "the Shelob scene occurs at the end of the Two Towers book. However, Jackson has chosen to push it back to the beginning of The Return of the King. One of the reasons for this is that the scenes between Sam, Frodo, Gollum, and Faramir have been expanded, perhaps to build upon Faramir's character and tie plotlines together a little more tightly. Jackson declined to comment how The Two Towers would end, but said viewers wouldn't be disappointed.<P>I don't mind at all if they expanded characters interaction between each other, in fact it is awesome, but the way that PJ is talking about the end sounds like if it will be a utterly unexpected end, and to me it means another big change...indeed only the fact that Shelob will be removed at the beginning of ROTK instead of end of TTT is a huge change, but then what kind of other end could make viewers really happy and not disapointed that could be done??..I can't see any other end then Frodo's "death". <BR>Will it end in the stairs of Cirith Ungol? Gollum clutching at Sam running behind a crazy Frodo? It surely cannot end this way, then it means another revision, isn't it? __________________ "Baruk khâzad! Khazâd ai ménu!" "Axes of the dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!"

02-27-2002, 09:41 PM	#2
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Ype, sounds like it. I personally don't mind such changes, as long as the spirit remains. And as for Shelob in general...Maybe it's a good idea she's being pushed back to RotK. Maybe by then I will be mature enough not to freak out at the sight of her. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

02-27-2002, 09:47 PM	#3
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	Hmmmm...I wonder. I think it is the most obvious thing in the world, to make the Shelob scene the cliffhanger. I guess PJ doesn't want to be obvious. The next best place to leave Frodo and Sam, I guess, is just as they leave the crossroads and enter into Morgul Vale. Then there is Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas on the Paths of the Dead. If PJ holds to form, he won't do that as a flashback as it was when they are talking to Merry and Pip in the Houses of Healing. So, we may see that. Finally, there is the scene where the winged Nazgul approaches Isengard just after Pip looks into the Palantir. No one has asked PJ about the <I>Wraiths on Wings</I> making their appearance in TTT that I am aware of. Even Gandalf and Pip racing toward Minas Tirith would work, so I don't necessarily think that the actual closing scenes need be improvised.<p>[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Glenethor ] __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

02-27-2002, 09:53 PM	#4
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Oh, I'm very interested in how PJ's going to pull this off.<P>I've been thinking about starting a thread along these lines...<P>It makes sense actually. In the Two Towers there are two climaxes:<BR>1 - Helm's Deep (and it's after-effect, the breaking of the staff of Saruman)<BR>2 - Shelob's lair.<P>Ah... PJ's solved a major cinematic problem, which is the Two Towers is really two books, not one. <P>He's chosen to focus the story on one of the 'Two Towers', Orthanc, and the defeat of Saruman.<P>The wild action-adventure in Rohan will be balanced by cutaways to disturbing/thoughtful scenes in Emyn Muil and Ithilien.<P>Very good. That will give us time to get to know Frodo, Sam and Gollum very, very well. And build up the power of the ring so it's not lost in the flood of events. Very important. Otherwise what happens at Orodruin will make no sense. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

02-27-2002, 10:00 PM	#5
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Hi Lush, Glenathor... seems we were all posting at once.<P>Glen, I've wondered about whether I'd do Frodo's 'death' as a cliffhanger. In another thread I decided I'd be against it, too melodramatic. Also, Frodo's 'return' would be pretty near the beginning of the next movie, so rather than being a dramatic entrance, it would feel like a practical joke on the audience. Then there's the length of time between the second movie's release and the last. Waiting one week after a cliffhanger is bad enough. A year??? I'd launch a posse to tar and feather him. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

02-27-2002, 10:09 PM	#6
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Yesss, we will get to know Sam, Frodo, Gollum, and FARAMIR. My prrrrrecious. <BR>Great points, Maril! And good luck to PJ. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

02-27-2002, 10:41 PM	#7
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	Mari,<P>Well, I'd have it go just a bit further, when Frodo is being carried off and Shagrat (I think it's Shagrat) tells the other orc (Gorbag?) that Shelob hadn't actually killed Frodo...and then show the Choices of Master Samwise...That <I>seems</I> to be the obvious choice. The audience will know Frodo is alive but captive, and that Sam intends to 'keep his promise' by going after him. A lot of people are quite mystified about PJ's choice here. I know I am, but I think he's earned enough of my trust not to get too worried about it...yet...<P>However, the more I think of it, I think the final scene could be Frodo, Sam, and Gollum staring down at Minas Morgul as the Witchking and his hosts issue forth toward Minas Tirith. That could be preceded by Aragorn's confrontation with Sauron with the Palantir and his embarking on the POTD. Remember, I think all three remaining parties of the Fellowship have their own cliffhanger scenes, eh? PJ has options here.<P>No, if I was a betting man, I'd bet on the unleashing of Sauron's Morgul forces as the final scene.<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Glenethor ] __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

02-28-2002, 10:12 AM	#8
Airetauriel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 47	And the last line of TTT???<P>'Who can now hold the fords when the king of the nine riders comes? I am too late, even if my errand is acheived, there will be noone I can tell. But it must be done....'<P>Or something like that anyway? What do you think?<P>Airetauriel

02-28-2002, 11:01 AM	#9
Mayla Took Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 152	I am very excited for TTT film. I think it is part of the excitment and anticipation to see what changes and ommitons that PJ has made! I would not mind if he pushed Shelob into ROTK either. He seems to like to mix and match scenes into different books. Such as he did in FOTR when he moved Boromir's death into the end of FOTR. I have compleat faith that it will turn out well! __________________ Good Things Come in Small Packages. (And don't you forget it!) Pippin:"What is that?!?" Merry:"This, my friend, is a pint!" Pippin:"It comes in PINTS?!?....I'm getting one!" "Don't let your heads get too big for your hats! But if you don't finish growing up soon, you are going to find hats and clothes expensive." Bilbo to Merry and Pippin "Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party. Throw yourself in next time, and then you will be no further nuisance. Now be quiet!" Gandalf to Pippin in Moria E-mail me at mailto:ThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.comThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.com</A> Oh, and please rate me. THANKS!

02-28-2002, 11:32 AM	#10
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	BTW, sorta OT, but do any of you know who is going to be playing the Witch King of Angmar In RoTK? Hint: He was in the first film under different guise. __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

02-28-2002, 12:12 PM	#11
Mayla Took Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 152	Hummmmm! I don't know! Is it Sean Bean or maybe Marton Csokas?? Who? __________________ Good Things Come in Small Packages. (And don't you forget it!) Pippin:"What is that?!?" Merry:"This, my friend, is a pint!" Pippin:"It comes in PINTS?!?....I'm getting one!" "Don't let your heads get too big for your hats! But if you don't finish growing up soon, you are going to find hats and clothes expensive." Bilbo to Merry and Pippin "Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party. Throw yourself in next time, and then you will be no further nuisance. Now be quiet!" Gandalf to Pippin in Moria E-mail me at mailto:ThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.comThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.com</A> Oh, and please rate me. THANKS!

02-28-2002, 12:33 PM	#12
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	The guy who played Lurtz, the Uruk-Hai Chieftain in FoTR.<BR> __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

02-28-2002, 01:08 PM	#13
the_master_of_puppets Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: scotland Posts: 77	no! they simply have to end after the shelob scene! i cant imagine it any other way!!! Thats such a good place to end: a cliff hanger. people who aint read it thinking frodo is dead, wondering how sam will cope alone, un stuff- where else could they end it? Ahhhhh no PJ this is one change u shood not make! and plus, is it really wise to start ROTK with a pure stress action scene with shelob? i dont think so....<P>aint wise to get all het up in the first 15 minutes of a movie! however, when we have all 3 on video it wont matter coz u just watch em in order anyway.

02-28-2002, 03:30 PM	#14
Enedhil Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 102	Ahhh,I was about to embark on a 'damn, he cannae do that' but after reading through all the comments...yeah, moving shelob might not be a bad idea. maybe ending it with shelob closing in on frodo, or at least, the last we see of them in this film, would work, and then cutting back to ummm... mumbles the others....mumbling still can't remember what bit exactly...<P>So long's they get ya to leave the cinema going again, then i'm happy __________________ Meanwhile these three remain: Faith, Hope and Love. And the greatest of these is Love.

02-28-2002, 05:39 PM	#15
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Rumors, hearsay, and gossip be damned! I'm gonna go see TTT and ROTK! I really am looking forward though to seeing Legolas (commences drooling) shield surfing! __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-01-2002, 05:35 PM	#16
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	I think I trust PJ enough to know that whatever he does, it'll be good. He really did a good job on the first movie, and he is a professional director, so it'll be good. __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

03-02-2002, 04:56 PM	#17
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!<BR>I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!<BR>HOW COULD PETE DO SUCH A THING!!!<BR> <BR> It would have been the perfect cliffhanger if half the audiance thought Frodo was dead for a year. And PJ has to ruin that. Plus Shelob is a great climax for the second movie! Plus Gollum's betrayal is an important part! <BR>AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<B R>TAKES A DEEP BREATH<P>Are you sure this is a definite change?! __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

03-02-2002, 07:36 PM	#18
Anarya SilverBranch Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In maiden meditation, fancy free. Posts: 245	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I really am looking forward though to seeing Legolas (commences drooling) shield surfing! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh I agree Aralaithiel. They picked the perfect actor to play Legolas. Orlando Bloom is soo cute!<P>But getting to the subject, I would not be surprised if PJ really did move the shelob scene like he moved the part where Boromir died in the Fellowship. I don't care though, I'm just happy that they made LOTR into a trilogy and not one single two hour movie like they were originally going to do. __________________ Snow white! Snow White! O' Lady Clear! O' Queen Beyond the Western Seas! O' light to us that wander here amid the world of woven trees!

03-03-2002, 02:08 AM	#19
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I don't know...my first thought was "No! It's one of the best scenes in the book!" But what with Helm's Deep and the storming of Isengard there's an awful lot going on already; the scene with Shelob might just seem like piling on the action too much (Come on, you know Peter Jackson isn't going to be exactly glossing over the battle scenes ) - under those circumstances Shelob be more effective if saved for the last movie.<P>The really unfortunate thing is that ending the movie with Frodo being alive but taken by enemy would be an incredible emotional punch - sort of like the ending of "The Empire Strikes Back" times about 300. Sam would hear the Orcs saying that Frodo is alive, chase them, hurl himself against the gates too late - wham, end of movie. On the whole, I'm optimistic. Before FOTR came out I was feeling kind of dubious but ended up loving the movie - the changes just worked, somehow. With any luck that will hold true for the next two as well. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-03-2002, 04:04 AM	#20
Balefalathiel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 34	It can't be true!!!! PJ, you have just lost a friend..