* * Valaquenta Some proposals for a new project ... * *

[antoine2]

Like i said in the Ainulindalë-projet thread :
The project of Ainulindale need to be merge, i think, with two others sub-project :
- The Valaquenta
- The First Chapter of the Quenta Silmarillion : CRT's Of the beginning of the Days.

This is my changes that i propose for a revised version of the Valaquenta:

{ } Material to be deleted.
Italics Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

The text of the Valaquenta can be found in the published Silmarillion (77 or 2001 version).

Vala-01
The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, {Lórien} [Lóriën], and Tulkas

Vala-02
With Manwë [now] dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä.
Cf the text of CRT

[The paragraph] has 'With him dwells as wife Varda... -, by emendation to LQ 1 it became With him in Arda dwells as spouse Varda ...'; and in Vq it is 'With Manwë now dwells as spouse Varda...' In 1975, when the main work on the text of the published Silmarillion was done, being then much less clear than I have since become about certain dates and textual relations (and ignorant of the existence of some texts), I did not see that this 'now' could have any significance, and moreover it contributed to the problem of tense in the Valaquenta, which is discussed below; I therefore omitted it. It is however undoubtedly significant. In AAm it is said (p. 49, $3): 'Varda was Manwë's spouse from the beginning, in contrast to the later C 'union' of Yavanna and Aulë 'in a' (on which see under $5 below). But the typescript text of AAm was emended (p. 69, $3) to 'Varda was Manwë's spouse from the beginning of Arda', which shows that some complex conception was present (though never definitively expressed) concerning the time of the 'union' of the great spirits.

Vala-03
The spouse of Aulë [in Arda] is Yavanna, the Giver of Fruits.
Cf the text of CRT

(Yavanna) Here again, as with Varda ($4 above), I wrongly changed the text concerning Yavanna S union with Aulë. Both Vq texts have 'The spouse of Aulë in Arda is Yavanna', and the words 'in Arda' are certainly significant (see V.120).

Vala-04
Námo the elder dwells in Mandos, which is {westward} [northward] in Valinor.
Cf the text of CRT

(Mandos) The editorial change of 'northward' to 'westward' in 'Námo the elder dwells in Mandos, which is northward in Valinor' in the published text (p. 28) is a regrettable error, which I have explained in I.82. - It may be noted here that in the passage in $9 concerning Niënna the change of 'the halls of Mandos, which are nearer and yet more northward' (found from QS to LQ 2) to 'the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own' is not editorial, but is found in the Vq texts.

Vala-05
the Sindar Tauron, the Lord of [the] Forests.
The translation of Tauron should be 'the Lord of the Forests'.

Vala-06
Eönwë, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë [, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda].
Cf the text of CRT

The words in the published text (p. 30) concerning Eönwë, 'whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda', were an editorial addition, made in order to prepare for his leadership of the hosts of the West at the Great Battle (The Silmarillion pp. 251 - 2). For the end of the Elder Days there is scarcely any material from the period following The Lord of the Rings.

We need to decide what to do with this insert of CRT.

Vala-07
[He was humble in the Land of the Blessed; and in Middle-earth he sought no renown. His triumph was in the uprising of the fallen, and his joy was in the renewal of hope.]
Cf the text of CRT

(Olórin) At the end of the account of Olórin is scribbled on the typescript Vq 1: 'He was humble in the Land of the Blessed; and in Middle-earth he sought no renown. His triumph was in the uprising of the fallen, and his joy was in the renewal of hope.'
It was wrongly omitted from The Silmarillion (p. 31).

Vala-08
{HERE ENDS THE VALAQUENTA}
[Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.]
Editorial insert of CRT
We need to insert the original end.

Vala-09
The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. The Lords of the Valar {were} /*QS77 are*\ seven; and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar, {were} /*QS77 are*\ seven also.
…
Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and {understood} /*QS77 understands*\ most clearly his purposes.
…
Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he {hates} /*QS77 hated*\ her, and {feares} /*QS77 feared*\ her more
Nonetheless Ulmo {loved} /*QS77 loves*\ both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar.
…
The Fëanturi, masters of spirits, {were} /*QS77 are*\ brethren, and they are called most often Mandos and Lóriën. Yet these are rightly the names of the places of their dwelling, and their true names are Námo and Irmo.
…
Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories of the Elder Days {were} /*QS77 are*\ Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë.
Some Problem of Tense.
We follow CRT opinion.

Vala-10
Mightier than Estë is Niënna, {sister of Námo} /*QS77 sister of the Fëanturi*\;
Here i don't know, if we need to follow CRT or not.


I just added the ** to make it an 'official' project thread and rearranged the title of the thread. - lindil

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[ April 06, 2003: Message edited by: antoine2 ]

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Vala-06
Eönwë, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë [, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda].
Cf the text of CRT


quote:
"The words in the published text (p. 30) concerning Eönwë, 'whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda', were an editorial addition, made in order to prepare for his leadership of the hosts of the West at the Great Battle (The Silmarillion pp. 251 - 2). For the end of the Elder Days there is scarcely any material from the period following The Lord of the Rings."

We need to decide what to do with this insert of CRT.

I'm almost of two minds regarding this bit. It seems an almost unnecessary addition, since foreknowledge of Eönwë's prowess doesn't really add much to the reading of the text. However, it also does not detract anything from it, either. On the one hand, it does add a small bit of clarity for the later events. On the other, it introduces information that might be considered superfluous.
Personally, I would say that the deletion of this particular insert would be the way to go, since it seems to be entirely an addition by CRT.

[lindil]

It is used as a counterbalance to the now missing [from various localations] Eonwe son of Manwe.

It is more of an update [albeit somewhat specualtive]. But either way it goes, it needs to be considered beyond the Valaquenta itself, esp in regards to the War of Wrath.

I lean towards keeping it, since JRRT DID do away with the Sons/Daughters of the Valar was discounted, so some other title would have been likely for Eonwe, and I can think of no more likely a title than that which CJRT came up with.

[Aiwendil]

There are two issues here:

1. Does the change in role of Eonwe from the son of Manwe to his herald require some further explanation or justification for his role in the War of Wrath?

2. Is the inserted phrase necessary for purely intra-textual reasons within the Valaquenta.

My responses (to my own questions):

1. It is possible that the change Fionwe > Eonwe would have corresponded to a change in the character's role in the War of Wrath, had Tolkien ever rewritten that section. I see no reason, however, to think that this would necessarily be so. Eonwe seems to me to be perfectly adequate in the role previously given to Fionwe. See, for example, one of the Istari notes in UT where it is said that "To the overthrow of Morgoth he [Manwe] sent his herald Eonwe." So Fionwe's role, at least in the broadest terms, was retained as Eonwe's.

But even if there were a problem with Eonwe's role in the Great Battle, surely a single phrase inserted into the Valaquenta would not fix it. And if it is to be addressed in some broader way in "Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath", then the attempted fix in the Valaquenta becomes wholly unnecessary.

2. If there is any justification (that is, need) for the phrase, it must be simply for reasons of balance and phrasing. But this was certainly not Christopher's motivation (see his comment on the phrase in HoMe X). And, perhaps more importantly, as JRRT first wrote the original text ("Of the Valar" in LQ1), the character had already become Eonwe, and there is no corresponding phrase present.

Thus, the addition of the phrase by us could have only two possible motivations: 1. To attempt to "fix" a perceived problem with the War of Wrath or 2. To "improve" JRRT's prose.

The latter is obviously absurd and the first, as I hope I've shown, is either insufficient or unnecessary. So I say: remove the phrase.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

1. Does the change in role of Eonwe from the son of Manwe to his herald require some further explanation or justification for his role in the War of Wrath?

Nope, he is in both cases still the mightiest IN ARMS (Not in inherent pyshical strength). Does it really matter whether he is the son/herald of Manwe? The procreation of the Valar really should belong to the 'earlier' Quenta's of HoME 4 and 5, IMO, Eowne was the 'best man for the job' either way, his brute force wasn't equal to say Tulkas or Orome ,thus limiting his ability to 'damage' Arda in the sense that the valar could (Though the war did lead to the sinking of Beleriand)and he was strong enough to enchain a vastly weakened Morgoth.

[Maédhros]

1. Does the change in role of Eonwe from the son of Manwe to his herald require some further explanation or justification for his role in the War of Wrath?

I have to agree with Aiwendil on this one.

2. Is the inserted phrase necessary for purely intra-textual reasons within the Valaquenta.

In the end, I think that the phrase should be removed, but as lindil pointed out, it would be a shame to loose it.

[Finwe]

As Inderjit Sanghera said, I don't think that it really matters whether Eonwë/Fionwë is the son of Manwë or not. Either way, he is his representation to the hoi polloi of Middle-earth, and a sort of Commander-in-Chief of the forces of Valinor. Just to be certain, will Eonwë have the same role in the Dagor Dagorath as he did in the War of Wrath? Because in the Dagor Dagorath, it is said that Morgoth will fall by the hand of Turin Turambar, so I'm assuming that Turin will have a big part to play, although probably not as the commander.

[Aiwendil]

Perhaps we can get this project moving again - I think it would be a good place for some of the new members to start.

Actually, now that I look over the changes above, I think we're close to being done here. I agree with the changes above, though I need to look at the past/present tense problems again.

[Maédhros]

I think that it would be a good idea to have in the private forum a sketch of the text like the one in the FOG 3, for clarification purposes.
An as Aiwendil points out, it is almost finished.

every thing is ready.
I will post the text today or tomorrow.

Antoine

[Novnarwen]

Okey, I know I may be a bit, well not a bit, just really off topic, but I'll say it anyway...

Regarding the Valaquanta, I was thinking; that maybe you should take a bit from BoLT 1. Chapter three, 'The Coming of The Valar and the building of Valinor,' might be a bit interesting.

When I read the Silm, I really wanted to know a bit more of the actual coming of the Valar. The Silmarillion gave me this feeling of that, the Valar were just there.
I don't know about you, and I might have made a complete fool out of myself, but somehow I think it's important to have just a little more of the history behind the actual coming of the Valar....

(I really hope this was the thread to write such a foolish thing... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] )

I delete it afterwards, if it doesn't fit in, don't worry.. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

*nova* [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

(Wow this was my first post, real post, in the secret forum..heh)

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Novnarwen
Regarding the Valaquanta, I was thinking; that maybe you should take a bit from BoLT 1. Chapter three, 'The Coming of The Valar and the building of Valinor,' might be a bit interesting.

When I read the Silm, I really wanted to know a bit more of the actual coming of the Valar. The Silmarillion gave me this feeling of that, the Valar were just there.

Hmmmmm. The thing about the Book of Lost Tales, is that many of the things mentioned there underwent great change and other things were omitted as the legendarium evolved. Not necessarily the ones that were omitted means that they were discarded though.
If you would be more specific into the changes that you propose, we would be grateful.

[Aiwendil]

Novnarwen, you bring up an interesting point. For The Fall of Gondolin, we freely used nearly the whole of the Lost Tales version, for no reason other than that it provided a more full story than all later versions. For the Ainulindale (and thus far for the Valaquenta) we have not even considered the Lost Tales. Of course, one could say that we simply do not need the Lost Tales material for these early sections in the same way that we needed it for the Fall of Gondolin. But one could also argue that if we used Lost Tales material in FoG simply in the interest of retaining certain virtues of that account, why not use the Lost Tales in a similarly liberal manner throughout?

There are two related questions here:

1. Is the Valaquenta we are creating intended to be the Valaquenta - that is, does it purport to be the actual document within Arda called "Valaquenta"? Or is the text we are creating something else - a disembodied narrative with no fictional existence within Arda itself? We faced the same decision long ago with the Quenta Silmarillion and decided upon the latter - if we were creating the Quenta Silmarillion, we could not, of course, include the full versions of 'Turin' or 'Tuor'. But so far it has been, I believe, generally assumed that the Ainulindale and Valaquenta texts we are creating are meant to be the actual within-Arda texts. At least, I've been operating with that assumption (though it may be unwarranted). Certainly the Ainulindale discussions centering around authorship and such seem to assume a within-Arda Ainulindale.

If this is a within-Arda Valaquenta, then there is no way Lost Tales material can be incorporated, since it is certain that they were not part of Tolkien's later thoughts on the actual words used in that document. Otherwise, we at least remain open to the possibility of Lost Tales material being included.

2. Is there any Lost Tales material for this part of the story that we can (or should) use? We're looking for details that we can be fairly certain were not rejected later, but were merely omitted from the later, compressed versions. Moreover, we need details that can be easily and logically inserted into the later Valaquenta. Here we face a difficulty that we did not have in dealing with FoG - there, we adopted not only the details of the old Tale but also it's structure. Here we must retain the structure of the new Valaquenta, and any details we adopt must be made to fit into it.

So we have those two questions to think about. Allowing ourselves to pick through the Lost Tales and add details certainly would introduce a lot of new possibilities - but with them would come the potential for a lot more problems.

[Novnarwen]

Okey, I am going to try to be a bit more spesific...

First:
If we want to make a Silmarillion as a 'history book', I think the only changes to be made are a couple of names, a bit extending here and there..

But, if we want to make a more complex Silmarillion, I really think we should thake the links in BoLT 1 an 2 about Eriol and Rúmil. Their coversation itself tells alot about the different chapters and stories. This would of course mean a lot more work, especially to mix story and the conversation. Doing this would not mean just editing in the valaquenta, but nearly everywhere, since the conversations between the two of them continues...(Hope that made sense..)


Second:

The account of the Masions of the valar was very largely lost in the subsequent versions. In the published work nothing is told of Manwe's dwelling, save the bare fact that his halls were 'above the everlasting snow, upon Oiolossë, the utermost tower of Tanqueitil' (page 26.)

taken from BoLT 1 page 88 (v) the dwellings of The Valar (pp.73.ff.)

If this is interesting at all... then you should read the chapter: 'The Coming of the Valar' BoLT 1...

If it's not, interesting, don't read this one more time.. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

That was about it.. I think..

*nova* [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Novnarwen ]

[Aiwendil]

Regarding using the Lost Tales: I still think it's an interesting idea, but the doubts expressed in my previous post still stand. We have the dual problem of 1. whether we want, in principle, to let ourselves use bits from the Lost Tales freely and 2. whether that can even be done within the structure of the Valaquenta.

If I have some time, I'll look into the latter question later. It would be helpful, though, if you could suggest some exact passages from the Lost Tales and their exact placement within the Valaquenta.

[Novnarwen]

I think I have changed my mind, regarding the living of Manwë. It's not really that interesting and it would only cause problems when editing it into the published text.

However, I am wondering about the conversation between Rúmil and Eriol. If we want them included, that would mean we also had to make the Silmarillion with The Cottage of Lost Play. Would that work?
The cottage of Lost Play, would only mean a lot of editing, and then I mean a lot.

I am not really sure if it's relevant, just checking.

*nova* [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Novnarwen
However, I am wondering about the conversation between Rúmil and Eriol. If we want them included, that would mean we also had to make the Silmarillion with The Cottage of Lost Play. Would that work?
The cottage of Lost Play, would only mean a lot of editing, and then I mean a lot.

We had a vote on the Ainulindalë, regarding Rúmil, Pengoloð and Ælfwine. It was decided that the references of Ælfwine would not be used because he seemed to be discarded in the later mythology.
Using the Cottage of Lost Play, in our Silmarillion, would cause IMO a great deal of trouble. It would be impossible to reconcile with what we are trying to do.

[antoine2]

I wrote :

every thing is ready.
I will post the text today or tomorrow.

One week after ... :-) ... it's online.
http://www.revisedsilmarillion.fr.st...quenta%201.pdf

Antoine

[Fyara]

ok well im going to be buying this book and read it as fast as i can so that this way i can have more of an idea what you guys are talking about even though i can kinda understand what you are talking about.

[Aiwendil]

Fyara: For information about this project, consult the "Introduction" thread.

If you have not read the Silmarillion, though, you will probably not find it very interesting.

[Fyara]

ok will do

[Fyara]

yea i got the book [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] so know i just have 2 read it all it shouldnt take me 2 long. how much did it cost u guys?

[Tirinvo]

Stated by Aiwendil
Regarding using the Lost Tales: I still think it's an interesting idea, but the doubts expressed in my previous post still stand. We have the dual problem of 1. whether we want, in principle, to let ourselves use bits from the Lost Tales freely and 2. whether that can even be done within the structure of the Valaquenta

Its always good practice in authoring to make your related storys' ends meet, so to speak. Great authors don't make a habit of contradicting themselves in later works. It could possibly help to link as many ME stories as possible, but innumerable "wrinkles" would greatly hinder smoothing anything out. Its best to worry about making the Valaquenta's ends meet first, if you catch my meaning. Once we have a malleable format in phase, BoLT would be much more pertinent and applicable to introduce.

[Aiwendil]

Tirinvo: You address my second question. And I think you are right in your assesment of it. We ought first to treat the Valaquenta as the Valaquenta, and if we allow ourselves BoLT material, only introduce it when all else has been finalized.

[Tirinvo]

Ai, but as to your first I answered as well. It would not only be in principle, but also irrefutably needed, as Tolkein never had the opportunity to smooth some of the more dibilitating wrinkles in his numerous "tales". It was not that he intended for any repetition or contradiction; it was that the notes in the Sil were scattered at best when Christopher compiled them. A prime example would be of the using of the name Legolas twice (once in LotR and FoG). If we would link the Sil to the BoLT, it would make the both stand more in credulousness from the passive reader.

[Aiwendil]

Yes. Of course we've been over the Legolas issue elsewhere, and I retain the opinions I expressed in those threads.

The upshot is that I agree that BoLT should not be used to augment the Valaquenta.

But my first question was actually different. It has nothing to do with consistencies, inconsistencies, or credibility. It is simply whether our "Valaquenta" is supposed to be the Valaquenta, the actual document within Middle-earth called the "Valaquenta". If it is, then use of BoLT material is right out a priori. If not, such use still fails against other problems.

[lindil]

We have brushed alongside this issue before, at the end of the principles thread, most recently, unless I missed something.

It is truly thorny. As Aiwendil pointed out the Fall of Gondolin was attempting to restore a compressed story with older directly related uncompressed material. The group has to function essentially as an updater/outdated-eliminator if you will.

The issue with adding to works like the Valaquenta from older non-directly related sources is very different.

IN the Valaquenta and anything else JRRT expanded upon or revised in the post LotR period, we can take that as a sort of last word as long as it does not contradict other established things. But I know I paused whether to add the Q37 reference to the horn of Salmar to a mention of the festival of the valar preceding the attack on the Trees.

JRRT had already in the 50's greatly expanded upon On the Darkening of valinor, and to drag
bits [interesting though they are] back in seems over bold in some senses, especially when we do not know why it was left out.

Adding so in the cases where JRRT clearly decompressed in the 50's and on, what are we to do?

For now I suggest 2 versions, with the Version #1 being primary and #2 optional:


#1 -In this primary version we always treat 'finished products' as wholes. Do not add ealier material to the 'primary version. Later material can be added to update any in accuracies. So, for example, Shibboleth could [in theory] be used to update any of the earlier material.

Thus we would NOT find a scrap from the 30's to put into 'Laws and Customs' or the 'Osanwe-Kenta' or 'Quendi and Eldar'. That sort of attempt would go into version #2

#2 - Where all is fair game anything can be moved from backwards forwards, so my example of the name of Salmar's horn would work, as would adding old details from say the Lay version of the Narn into the Narn.


If 2 comes into existence at all, it would depend on a given members willingness to do the work needed to try and bring it into the work under discussion.

This topic should probably have it's own thread if it grows at all.

[Tirinvo]

I see your point and the perdictament Aiwendil, in that respect I am wont to try lindil's proposals as they have proven in the least enlightening in the past. I would agreeably say that in the primary verson we should change naught but terminal errors, rather let each change go first though the "experimental" version. If the change is collectively decided to be in the best interests of the origional Val, then let it pass to the P.V. This is repeating a lot of what lindil already said, but with my uneducated twist. This should be quite a ride if we do do this, for this will not be easy.

[Aiwendil]

I think this would be a good time to finalize this project and the Ainulindale.

I think we are agreed on refraining from using CT's editorial addition concerning Eonwe.

Another point I noticed as I glanced at the changes again:

Vala-05
the Sindar Tauron, the Lord of [the] Forests.

The translation of Tauron should be 'the Lord of the Forests'.

There is no reason whatsoever to insert the article "the". "Lord of Forests" is just as good a translation as "Lord of the Forests".

Other than that, I think all the changes are good.

We should each look over this and, if no one has any other complaints, consider it done.

[Maédhros]

I have seen all of the proposed emendations, and I don't see anything out of order.
Findegil, are you ok with this section?

[Findegil]

At lAst I have found the time to reraed this thread.
So I can at a long last answer Maédhros question:
Yes I am happy with all the things changed here.


Respectfully
Findegil

I have to say that I was a little surprised that you guys weren't using any of BoLT-1 when constructing the Valaquenta. (Did you also not use it for the DoV?) I understand that you only used BoLT-2 for FoG because of the lack of narrative structure for the "compressed" parts. However, it seems to me that the Valaquenta (together with 'Of Beleriand and its Realms') is one of the least-narrative parts of the Sil. First time readers seem to always struggle with it because it reads more like a reference guide than a story. I feel like BoLT would help bring back a little bit of this flow.

Secondly, it seems to me like a good thing (and in accordance with the principles and the goals) to incorporate older details when you can, so long as they do not conflict in any way with later conceptions. The goals of the project after all, state that "much will be worked into the narrative framework provided by CJRT... whenever possible," and that it will be a "compendium, primarily in narrative form, of all of the writings." It's true that we don't know whether JRRT left these details out intentionally, but we also don't know if he left them out accidentally or because he simply ran out of time.

Having two versions might be a good compromise, but also seems like it might be nearly twice as much work.

As per Aiwendil's two points:

1. I feel like the same decision that applied to the QS should apply here. Only JRRT, it seems to me, could write the authoratative, in-Arda version. Anything else will have to rely on a translator somewhere along the way (even if an unnamed one); and, if it ever were to get published or even shown to the Estate, it might make it seem that much less presumptuous if it's clear that it's not purporting to be the official version, but rather something put together from the available pieces, "just as Bilbo did using the library of Rivendell."

2. Some examples of things that could be incorporated from BoLT-1:

A very basic change:
"With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. <BoLT1 Varda it was who at the playing of the Music had thought much of light that was white and silver, and of stars.> In light is her power and her joy."

An example of some better narrative flow:
<BoLT1 Behold, Manwë Súlimo and Varda the Beautiful arose> ... <Those twain gathered now wings of power to themselves and faired swiftly through the {three}[] airs> ... <Now swiftly as they fared {Melko}[Melkor] was there before them, having rushed headlong flaming through the airs in the impetuosity of his speed....>

And perhaps even, some added characters (as was done w/ FoG):
<BoLT1 With them came many of those lesser {Vali}[Ainur] who loved them and had played nigh them and attuned their music to theirs, and these are the Mánir and the Súruli, the sylphs of the airs and of the winds.>
And:
<BoLT1 Now behind those greatest chieftans came {Falman-}Ossë of the waves of the sea and <Cf. long-tressed> {Onen}[Uinen] his consort, and with them the troops of the {Oarni}[Earni],... spirits of the foam and the surf.>

(Note that this last bit may help with the recent mermaid problem and also help explain the '77 sentence that Ossë "is the governor of the waves and the movements of the Inner Seas, and many other spirits beside.")

Anyway, this was my first real post here. I hope it wasn't too impertinent, I'm just excited to get involved in some fashion. I also hope I used all that notation correctly...! Thanks for listening, and I look forward to participating more in this project.

~P.S. Sorry lindil, if I should have started a new thread as you suggested above, I didn't feel like I had the authority to start one with my first post (nor would I know how much, if any, I should copy over to it from here.)

[lindil]

A couple of points I think are up to date with the Valaq. :

If any of BolT were to be used it would be in a 2nd draft/version for the reasons Aiwendil listed below.

There are [as my marked up copy of the BolT 1 early chapters shows] alot of details which theoretically could be restored in our version, but we opted to go for a more conservative approach.

As I stated below [but it has been so long since I commented I better refresh myself before saying much ] I do not agree with the way the Yavanna or the authorship questions for Ainilindale and Valaquenta turned out, but the far more active members of the group were in agreement , so that was that.

If we go at a later date for a 2nd and more liberal version then we almost certainly will take additions such as yours into account.

As for the DOV, that was a pilot chapter [1/2 reaaaly] that I worked on waaaay back 2 groups before the current one [even Aiwendil was not around] and many of our defining principles were not fleshed out. So it really should be looked at as an example of what could be done more than anything belonging to the current groups work. I def. need to update the
Intro/FAQ thread to weed out quite a bit of older stuff in there that is not up to speed with the current methods and works in progress.

In short, some of my summarry comments in the FAQ/Intro [written, some of it, over 2 years ago I think] are not quite in jive with the current views.

Apologies for the unclarity.

As for the 2 versions, well it will be way more work, but I see no other way of covering the vast gaps of the many ways we could do this project.

Welcome to the Downs, and excellent firsat post.

Not to knock Findegil's encouragement down, but opening a new thread in this forum is usually done somewhat more hestiantly than in other fora.

And PM'ing Aiwendil or Myself, or if there is a designated project leader for a given chapter he/she would be the one who could say whether to start a new thread with your material or place it in the general questions or include it within an older thread.

But in general, it would be pretty difficult to do toomuch harm in that regard .

Again, welcome to the Downs and the TftE!

[Maédhros]

Secondly, it seems to me like a good thing (and in accordance with the principles and the goals) to incorporate older details when you can, so long as they do not conflict in any way with later conceptions. The goals of the project after all, state that "much will be worked into the narrative framework provided by CJRT... whenever possible," and that it will be a "compendium, primarily in narrative form, of all of the writings." It's true that we don't know whether JRRT left these details out intentionally, but we also don't know if he left them out accidentally or because he simply ran out of time.

I would really like that, but I think that this can really open up a Pandora's box in the project. If we were to make such additions from BoLT, for example in the Ainulindalë and Valaquenta who would be the author of such notes? For example:

"With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. <CV Varda it was who at the playing of the Music had thought much of light that was white and silver, and of stars.> In light is her power and her joy."

The author of the BoLT Material in this case is Rúmil, yet as far as I remember, I don't recall Rúmil being the author of the Valaquenta. If we were to use such additions by him, does it falls in the same category as the Yavanna tree image that we faced in the Ainulindalë?
The only part that I might add, would be the ones about the Oarni/Earni. It is a very fine line that we are walking on.

This is just something that I wanted to point out from the Valaquenta in HoME X

In my foreword to The Silmarillion I wrote that in the Valaquenta 'we have to assume that while it contains much that must go back to the earliest days of the Eldar in Valinor, it was remodelled in later times; and thus explain its continual shifting of tense and viewpoint, so that the divine powers seem now present and active in the world, now remote, a vanished order known only to memory.'

Anyway, this was my first real post here. I hope it wasn't too impertinent, I'm just excited to get involved in some fashion. I also hope I used all that notation correctly...! Thanks for listening, and I look forward to participating more in this project.

Welcome to the project Raumohir, it is nice to see finally someone that posts that they want to join actually inmerse themselves in our work.

[Findegil]

I Have read our Valaquenta and The Coming of the Valar. And I know feel more or less fit to discuss the additions from Bolt 1 to our Valaquenta. First I will adress Aiwendils two questions:
1. Is the Valaquenta we are creating intended to be the Valaquenta - that is, does it purport to be the actual document within Arda called "Valaquenta"? Or is the text we are creating something else - a disembodied narrative with no fictional existence within Arda itself?
I am not sure if this does mater at all. What I mean is that no body can cross check with the "original" document. So what ever we do, we could soupose it to be within the ardarian document. But to be more serious, I think we can't create the ardarian document at all so I think we should not try to make that our goal.

2. Is there any Lost Tales material for this part of the story that we can (or should) use?
Here my answer is no. To explain this, I think we have look at the function of the Valaquenta in the course of the "The Silmarillion". The Ainulindale lays out the scene or the stage for the tale, and the Valaquenta does introduce the actors that will play a part in the first act. But The Coming of the Valar is the first act (in a differned play as I may say). We may like or dislike the way in which Tolkien does solve these functions, but does that allow us to alter them?

Now let's go to the examples Raumohir did post:

"With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. <BoLT1 Varda it was who at the playing of the Music had thought much of light that was white and silver, and of stars.> In light is her power and her joy."

This could be added, but what does it add to our text? Isn't it much more than a repetiton "In light is her power and her joy."? In short it could be considered, but I don't think it is worth it.

<BoLT1 Behold, Manwë Súlimo and Varda the Beautiful arose> ... <Those twain gathered now wings of power to themselves and faired swiftly through the {three}[] airs> ... <Now swiftly as they fared {Melko}[Melkor] was there before them, having rushed headlong flaming through the airs in the impetuosity of his speed....>

This clearly can't be used. As I said above, the Valaquenta is no narative. And in addition what ever we make out of this it is not in accordance with the much later Ainulindale where the Ainur entered into Eä when nothing was made ready. Okay we could consider it as the entrance of the Valar in to Arda, but are we to use this very pictural version? The porject once considered even a round earth version, so were would we go with this.

<BoLT1 With them came many of those lesser {Vali}[Ainur] who loved them and had played nigh them and attuned their music to theirs, and these are the Mánir and the Súruli, the sylphs of the airs and of the winds.>

If we us this in the place that is more or less suggested by Raumohir's post it would mix up the account of the Valar and Maiar. That is exactly the opposit of what Tolkien did in his last editing of the text.

<BoLT1 Now behind those greatest chieftans came {Falman-}Ossë of the waves of the sea and <Cf. long-tressed> {Onen}[Uinen] his consort, and with them the troops of the {Oarni}[Earni],... spirits of the foam and the surf.>

To introduce the Earni here would realy be nice, but the the first part bear the same problem as the qoute before.

Overall I don't think that the Valaquenta is the rigth part to add these things. May be we should consider some parts for the Maiar part, put even that I find doubtfull.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Reading this thread again and the fiting chapters in HoMe X I found myself very hesitating about Vala-09. The problem of the shifting tenses in this chapter is not completly solved by these changes. And in view of Christopher Tolkiens remark

In all these cases, except 'he hated her, and feared her' on p. 26, the tense was changed from past to present. The change on p. 28 seems in any case mistaken (cf. p. 26, 'Manwe and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Iluvatar'); and to make any of them was probably a misjudgement. But the problem is real. A leading consideration in the preparation of the text was the achievement of coherence and consistency; and a fundamental problem was uncertainty as to the mode by which in my father's later thought the 'Lore of the Eldar' had been transmitted. But I now think that I attached too much importance to the aim of consistency, which may be present when not evident, and was too ready to deal with 'difficulties' simply by eliminating them.

I wouldn't make these changes at all. At least "The Fëanturi, masters of spirits, were brethren ..." should be allowed to stand.

Vala-10:
"Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of Vala-10{Námo}<Sil77 the Fëanturi>; ..."
I don't think we should follow Christopher Tolkiens lead here. The concept of siplings among the Ainur seems to me very complex. I am not sure that in Tolkiens mind Niënna was the sister of Lóriën even if she was the sister of Mandos and Mandos and Lóriën were brethern. In earlier stages of the legendarium I remember Mandos being call the brother of Manwë, but we never her of Melkor being the brother of Mandos, nor of Manwë being the brother of Lóriën. Thus I think it would be saver to stick to the original version with only Namo named as a brother of Niënna.

In genneral the presentation of the text is a bit difficult to follow. It is shifting back and for from Vq2 as the basis from which are changes indicate to Sil77.
I think it would be better to take Vq2 as basis and introduce only the desiered changes to that text. The changes introduced by Christopher Tolkien have been discussed, and if they are now lost from the text that does not matter.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Well, I only want to say that I included the descriptions of the dwelings of the Valar from the Lost tales. And some material from the Pengolodh words in the Ainulindalë of MR, that were taken by CT in the first chapter of QS77.

Greetings.

[Findegil]

In our Version I think that the discription of the dwellings will be introduce in the Frist chapter of the Quenta Silmarillion. The Words of Pengolodh to tha Ainulindale are in our Version given after the Ainulindale. In both cases we think that this placement is nearer to the ideas of JRR Tolkien.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

Gondowe proposed the follwing change in the thread about general changes:

include only in the Valaquenta an allusion of Mairon as the original name of Sauron per Words, Phrases and passages PE17, pg183:
for example:
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was [Mairon,] that spirit whom the Eldar [later] called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning...

The passage in Parma Eldalamberon 17: Words, Phrases and Passages in The Lord of the Rings on page 184 reads:

√SAWA-, disgusting, foul, vile: [Q saura, foul, vile whence name Sauron.]* prefix Q sau- as in: saucare, doing or making a thing very badly. Not used in Sindarin as prefix; but the adjective saur occurs in sense 'bad' of food etc., putrid, also substantive saw, flith, putrescence.

also Q söa, flith (sawā). [Added in the left margin.]

* This name is also used in late 3[rd] age Sindarin and could be a genuine Sindarin formation from saur; but is probably from Quenya. The ancient Sindarin name for Sauron was Gorthaur, of quite distinct origin: from √ÑGOR 'terror' and √THUS, evil mist, fog, Darkness: ñgor(o)-thūsō > Gorthu 'Mist of Fear'; cf. thû, horrible darkness, black mist < thūsē.
Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King Excellent' until after the downfall of Númenor. The Quenya form equivalent to Gorthu was ñorthus, ñorsus, stem ñorsūr-

I would add a bit more then Gondowe suggested:

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. Vala-07.5 <Words. Phrases and Passages Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King Excellent' until after the downfall of Númenor.> In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

OK its right, but the complete sentence I had inserted in the General guide of names at the end of the Vol 3. And a nice place could be better when he is described in the passage from "Of the rings of Power". That in my version is part of the subchapter "Of the Return of Sauron" from the part II "Middle Earth" of the First Part "The Second Age" of that Vol 3.

Greetings.