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04-25-2020, 06:24 PM | #1 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Barad-Dur
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The brave people of Ithilien
The Nazgul laid siege to Minas Ithil in TA 2000, with the city falling in TA 2002 and becoming Minas Morgul. Yet Ithilien remained populated by Gondorians until TA 2954 when Mount Doom burst into flame.
For people to live so close to the Nazgul and Minas Morgul for 952 years must have taken some courage, How did they manage to survive for so long? Last edited by The Mouth of Sauron; 02-05-2021 at 11:33 AM. |
04-26-2020, 05:45 AM | #2 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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The Nazgûl don't appear to have done much after taking the city, for a long time.
Sauron was absent from Mordor until TA 2941, occupying Dol Guldur. The Ringwraiths would seem to have just needed a place to hide while they kept a watch on both Mordor and Gondor, secretly preparing for their master's eventual return. Away from Morgul itself, those dwelling in Ithilien were probably fairly safe then. The Tale of Years entry for 2901 states: Quote:
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04-26-2020, 07:28 AM | #3 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
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Are you thinking "haunted city"? Because I'm thinking haunted city.
If we assume the Nazgul didn't keep an army on hand, then what we have is a valley with a noxious stream, bordered by white flowers which may have been cursed(? the Gateway says this, but I don't remember it). If you're brave enough to follow the path - up towards the black mountains, towards the foul land of Mordor - you eventually come to a sickly-glowing empty city. Empty, that is, except for a shadow of fear thick enough to walk across. We know what the Nazgul's shadow does to people - now imagine a city festering in it for hundreds of years. Nobody would ever get close. But outside the Valley of Sorcery (not sorcerers, note), Ithilien is still basically fine. Just Don't Go Into The Valley. -- though actually, the Gateway seems very confused about the population of Ithilien. Check this out: Quote:
hS |
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04-26-2020, 07:43 AM | #4 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,319
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As Benjamin Franklin said, "Don't believe everything you read on the internet."
Going back to the source (Appendix A & B) we have 2000 Nazgul besiege M Ithil 2002 City falls 2050 Earnur rides there and is lost No mention of Ithilien's population so far 2475 Uruks take Osgiliath. Boromir I drives them back and re-takes Ithilien, but Osgiliath is ruined and deserted 2885 Haradrim invade Ithilien, but get their butts kicked 2901 (i.e. during Turin II's stewardship) Uruks drive out most of Ithilien's population. The tough, the stubborn and the stupid remain. Henneth Annun built 2942 Sauron returns to Mordor 2951 Sauron declares himself openly 2954 Mt Doom erupts. Last inhabitants flee Ithilien So, basically for nine centuries, with one rocky bit around the halfway point, Ithilien and its people were pretty much fine. Just stay away from the spooky old city that radiates EVIL! like a frickin' neon warning sign.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 04-26-2020 at 11:04 AM. |
04-27-2020, 08:10 PM | #5 | |
Mighty Quill
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04-27-2020, 09:12 PM | #6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Yes, multiple generations would have lived and died in Ithilien, apparently largely unmolested, between, for instance, the fall of Osgiliath (when Rohan still wasn't even founded yet!) and the Haradrim crossing the Poros in 2885. Survival doesn't appear to have been much of a struggle for multiple centuries at a time, given that Minas Morgul appears to have just sat there looking spooky for lengthy periods.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. Last edited by Zigûr; 04-27-2020 at 09:16 PM. |
04-28-2020, 04:14 PM | #7 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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In RL, can anyone think of a populated region in Europe that ever enjoyed four-plus centuries of uninterrupted peace?
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
04-29-2020, 02:29 AM | #8 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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In RL, would a dynasty last as long as Aragorn's *and* return to more or less Emperor status after centuries as wandering chieftains?
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04-29-2020, 03:59 AM | #9 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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Quote:
Secondly: Peace, or freedom from invasion? I know they call it the Watchful Peace, but I suspect Gondor still squabbled with Umbar, so Ithilien soldiers would still have gone off to war. For that matter, they were probably still in border skirmishes in South Gondor - and with Mordor still orc-infested, I can't imagine there weren't raiding parties bopping around. For Europe, though: Wales springs to mind. I don't know whether there was any action there during the English Civil Wars, but I don't think anything happened after that until... oh, WWI zeppelin bombings, maybe? That's... wait, no, that's actually only 250 years. Hmm. Apparently I'm losing track of how long centuries are, too! Quote:
Alternately: the Solominic Dynasty of Ethiopia is held to have actually begun around 900 CE, but claimed its authority from the Biblical King Solomon, ca. 900 BCE. That's a nearly 2000 year gap, and involves a priestly lineage very similar to Aragorn's. The main difference is that nobody really believes it, whereas Gondor seems to uncritically accept Aragorn's claim. I suppose when you have a bunch of immortals wandering around who can vouch for his entire family tree, this sort of thing gets a bit easier... hS |
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04-29-2020, 01:49 PM | #10 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Mind you, given the length of a Numenoran royal generation, the comparable span of RL generations would only cover ~half as many years. And the Jacobites are still pushing Franz von Bayern well over 300 years after James II was run off.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
07-09-2020, 01:17 PM | #11 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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It was good land, thus “the garden of Gondor” (Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit). I could see the people wanting to do all they could to be there.
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