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#1 |
Laconic Loreman
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The White Council
A rather basic question that stood out to me last time reading Lord of the Rings, about the formation of the White Council. It might be one of those "sorry, Boro, there's no definitive answer" but I might as well ask it anyway...
So, in the Lothlorien chapters Galadriel reveals she was the initial founder and would have preferred Gandalf to Saruman, but Saruman was chosen as the leader hence the title "White Council" and not "Grey Council." But I find Galadriel's statement rather odd, if she was the initial engine behind it and preferred Gandalf, why wasn't it the "Grey Council" and Gandalf the leader? Was she overruled by Elrond or Celeborn? I'm not sure there is anything definitive to point to Cirdan being a member, but I mean he gave Narya to Gandalf, and not to Saruman when the Istari arrived in Middle-earth. So, I imagine he probably would have preferred Gandalf to Saruman. Then again, there's nothing I can find to suggest Cirdan would be involved, since his ring-gifting to Gandalf would suggest he's staying out of Middle-earth's affairs.
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Last edited by Boromir88; 03-07-2021 at 08:20 PM. |
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#2 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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Hmm. It's been long since I've actually read the right texts for this, so less of a textual-based and more of a feels-based answer. Maybe not exactly what you're looking for, but unfortunately I don't have the resources right now to do better.
First of all, was the White Council actually named so for Saruman, as you imply in your post? I thought it was White because it opposed the Dark side and was wise and etc, not in honour of its elected leader. In terms of leadership... If Galadriel had that much say in the council, it wouldn't have been White or Grey, but rather Golden-mallorn-leaf coloured. She might have been the initiator ("hey guys, we need to gang up to plot the fate of Middle-earth!"), but not necessarily a louder voice than the other members. And she, like Cirdan, might have recognized Gandalf's value early on - but that didn't change that early on Saruman was the leader of the Istari, and Gandalf accepted his superiority. In fact, he accepted it, thinking Saruman wiser than himself, until the very events of LOTR. And initially, there was real merit to that esteem to Saruman, not purely a mark of Gandalf's humility. Saruman as the leader of the council is natural; he is the most powerful entity there, and by personality the most natural at handling this position. Forcing Gandalf into the formal position of the leader of Middle-earth over Saruman's head would have been against the flow of their dynamic, and would likely have caused a big rift among the Council. This way, Gandalf still became the de facto leader of Middle-earth, but on the field rather than in the council room. So in summary, I see the chief opposition to Galadriel's choice of leadership to be first and foremost Gandalf himself, it just wouldn't be in character for him. Anyways, if there is a definitive answer, I would also gladly hear it. I can only offer an "it feels right" answer, which is not very much, but might get a discussion going.
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#3 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Thanks G55
![]() To quote the part that I said Galadriel's statement was odd, because it sounds to me that she was the start up, the brains behind it's formation: Quote:
I think your answer about, the reason being Gandalf himself at this stage would have deferred to Saruman anyway because that's Gandalf's character is the answer that makes the most sense. It's probably all there is to it, but Galadriel's comment in Lothlorien had me wondering if there were other voices that preferred Saruman, which lead to him heading it.
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#4 | |||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,864
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My understanding was always that Gandalf said no thank you, and that Saruman got the leadership almost by default; but like G55, I'm not sure that's based in the text.
Today I have actually learned two things! The first is that Cirdan was in the White Council, which I never knew, but: Quote:
Oh, and in fact: Quote:
The other thing I've learnt is that Elrond probably named the council, because: Quote:
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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Huinseron just beat me to it. Gandalf refused to lead. I also can't help but feel as if, given his humility, he might have considered such a role improper — rightly or wrongly, the Valar had put Saruman in charge, not him.
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#6 |
Laconic Loreman
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Thanks Huey and Zigur. Great to get confirmation of Cirdan!
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