Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
12-15-2008, 10:34 AM | #1 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Facing 19 Fingers and One Big Eye
In the 'Voice of Saruman' chapter, Gandalf the White tells Saruman that he may leave Orthanc to go wherever he chooses, even to Mordor, if Saruman so wishes. What was Gandalf thinking? First, as a caveat, I'm not sure how well received Saruman would be at Barad-dur - if I were Sauron, I'd definitely watch my back. That said, Saruman had valuable information that could have aided Sauron in his war effort and in his efforts to recover the Ring.
So how would that play out? And what would the West face if Saruman did physically join up with the East, if Hand and Eye were to join forces.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
12-15-2008, 08:18 PM | #2 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,508
|
Hmmm...I think Sauron would have flayed Saruman alive, particularly after the Nazgul brought back news of Saruman's double-dealing and treachery. In fact, after Saruman's confrontation with the Nazgul at Orthanc, I don't believe Saruman would have even considered a trip to Mordor.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
12-15-2008, 10:22 PM | #3 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,036
|
I believe by that time Sauron likely already had all the useful information that Saruman could offer, courtesy of their conversations by Palantír. I don't think Saruman knew of the plan to destroy the Ring, as either Sauron would have gleaned that from Saruman's mind during one of their conferences, or Saruman would have willingly informed Sauron so as to receive his favour in victory. If Saruman himself could not lay hands upon the Ring, that had to have been his "Plan B".
Sauron was well aware of Saruman's doings and did not need him, though I'm sure repaying Saruman for trying to get the Ring for himself would have been a priority for Sauron once the West was beaten.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
12-16-2008, 03:46 PM | #4 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
I'm not sure Sauron would be comfortable with Saruman - a rival - hanging on the mat. On the other hand, I can't see Saruman playing second fiddle to the other maia either - even if he were the Captain of the Forces of Barad-dur, he would still be #2.
On the other hand, as Saruman had just been humiliated by Gandalf, and as he's already stated that he would accept lesser-than-optimal means to an end, he might become a captain of the East just to get revenge on the hobbits, ents and especially Gandalf. Thanks for replying.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
12-16-2008, 04:11 PM | #5 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,508
|
Oh, but he did exact revenge...in the basest, most meanspirited manner possible (a reflection of how far he had fallen), by becoming the petty dictator of the Shire, Sharky. He says as much to Frodo.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
12-18-2008, 04:19 PM | #6 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
Had he been looking to be a spoiler - didn't Galadriel try to keep him from resume-padding - if he had joined with Morder, he could have led the attacks on Lorien, maybe to better effect. Maybe since the attack of the Ents, he developed a phobia about trees, and so had as many as possible cut down in the Shire.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
|
12-19-2008, 04:33 AM | #7 |
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
|
In all of LotR one thing is more clear than anything - Sauron needed no help from Saruman. He had so many forces in Mordor he could have destroyed everything alone, and I really mean everything. It was a great misfortune that something slipped into Mordor and all the way to Mount Doom, a truly unexpected event.
So if he was 110% sure he could anihilate all alone, why would he accept Saruman's help? Give me one good reason for that. I doubt there is any. He knew Saruman may try to backstab him and take his place as ruler and he was smart enough to avoid that. Plus, I am pretty sure people like Mouth Of Sauron would also not have welcomed Saruman, especially as they wanted the high posts as stewards over the western lands answering only to Sauron. So they may have dealt with Saruman before he even got to Mordor to ask for forgiveness. Saruman did the only thing he could do, there was no other place he could enslave and rule with only a hand full of ruffians - the Shire was the perfect opportunity. Ok, theoretically he could have tried to go East, past Mordor and to have Easterlings worship him, but even there Sauron had his agents and would not have tolerated competition, plus Saruman had a reason to go to the Shire - revenge.
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown |
12-19-2008, 10:25 AM | #8 | ||||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
||||||
12-19-2008, 06:50 PM | #9 |
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
|
Well, sir, although the old saying about "keep your enemies closer" has a certain importance, it still makes no sense at all why Sauron, who was sure he would soon be the sole master of Middle-earth use Saruman as a lieutenant of his forces. In the end both seeked the same - the Ring - and Sauron knew it. But there could only be one who possesed it, so Saruman would have been eliminated. This is beyond doubt, or at least I am sure of it. You say, Sauron could gain some advantages off the alliance - true, useful, but not necessary, not at all. Only a bonus at most.
Plus, I ask for some understanding here, but the whole idea about the son of Sauron makes no sense at all for me. Really, no sense. I mean, why would Sauron in any respect fear Saruman? From the works we know Gandalf was stronger than Saruman and that Gandalf with the One Ring on would be more or less about as powerful as Saruman. Which leads to the conclusion that no matter what Saruman did it was virtually impossible for him to really do anything in the end against Sauron - it was inevitable, he could not become the next Dark Lord. This is why I all in all feel that the whole theory of Saruman helping Sauron is based on no evidence at all, hence it appears that Saruman would never have considered truly serving Sauron.
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown |
12-19-2008, 08:06 PM | #10 | |||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
All in jest - alatar
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
|||||
12-20-2008, 09:34 AM | #11 | ||||
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
|
Speaking of Sauron's possible defeat at the hands of one of the Wise, I'd first take a look at how he may have been defeated as see in the history of Arda.
First, a look at letter #211: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Considering the relative power of Gandalf with the Ring and Sauron without I most like to take a look at letter #144: First, Tolkien explains that neither Frodo nor any other mortal, not even Aragorn could ever be able to defeat Sauron with the Ring. He then reffers to the Wise, saying: Quote:
Elrond and Galadriel would have built up large armies and attacked Mordor, but victory seems to have been a plausible option at best, since a direct encounter with Sauron would have been fatal and that after probably all the dreams of replacing Sauron were a consequence of the Ring's own influence. So, the wisest and strongest of Elves had a dim chance at best. Gandalf, on the other hand would have had a delicate balance of power if he encountered Sauron. The thing is Tolkien names no victor here, so one can speculate at best about Gandalf's chances to become the next Dark Lord. So, all in all, it appears that noone truly could have challenged Sauron and won, except Gandalf perhaps. And to return to the thread at hand, there is no mention of Saruman in this whole passage - showing that for Tolkien Saruman as a new Dark Lord was not even a possibility. So again, why would he then hope to be accepted by Sauron? And, talking about the attack on Dol Guldur, it appears to have actually been planned by Sauron, so Saruman played a minor part there at best. Btw, I apologize for myself lacking a sense of humor, I actually believed you meant the "Son of Saruman" idea as a viable possibility. And as much as I enjoy speculating, as I did in the other thread, I believe that in some cases there simply is not enough supporting it. And I now for example feel the same about the idea of the old man near Fangorn having been a ghost or an image of Gandalf after having seen the quotes from HoMe which clearly pointed towards Saruman as a culprit.
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown |
||||
12-20-2008, 10:20 AM | #12 | |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
|
Quote:
"From the works we know Gandalf was stronger than Saruman and that Gandalf with the One Ring on would be more or less about as powerful as Sauron." It was a bit confusing when I read it the first time. Other than that, everything I would have said about this has already been said.
__________________
Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
|
|
12-21-2008, 09:34 AM | #13 |
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
|
Yeah, of course.
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown |
|
|