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#1 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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I think we should have a definite plan before beginning to put together the text. What we have can be divided easily into three sections:
1. The 'later Tuor' from UT 2. The transition section (in the thread "A project: Revising the Fall of Gondolin, page 2). 3. The Lost Tales section, with copious revisions. The revisions to 3 are scattered. This is, I think, a comprehensive list of them: The Closing Portions, AP:RFG page 2 I think most of the points of contention here were resolved and taken up in the initial post, so unless anyone has any new concerns, these are good; the only exceptions are spots that are superceded by the later Balrog emendations. Also, we still need to come up with some way of working the Elessar into this section. The Attack, AP:RFG page 2 No real problems were raised with these changes, so they can stand. Maeglin's Treachary, AP:RFG page 2 Same as above Tuor in Gondolin, AP:RFG page 2 Again, no problems. Ambiguous Balrogs, Bye Bye Balrogs page 2 Omitting the Metal Monsters, Mechanical Dragons at the Fall of Gondolin? There has been no consensus on this one yet, and we should definitely wait on it until we have a clear idea of what our final position is with regard to mechanical dragons. Also, we have a couple of questions left mainly in the transition section, most importantly, the names of Gondolin. I think the easiest way to do this would be to put the later Tuor, the transition, and the FoG section in a single post and then edit them to fit our corrections. It looks like my moderator-ship has been dropped since the move to the new board, so I'm afraid the actual edits will have to be the work of Lindil. Perhaps we should collect the emendations in a single thread, so that we can finalize them? [ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ] [ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] |
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#2 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 26
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hello
I finished a complet revised version of FOG several weeks ago. Becouse this project looks still alive, i hope that i could send this text somewhere ... but where ? i dont know if it s possible on this forum with problems of copyright. thx Antoine |
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#3 |
Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
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My apologies for the delay Antoine, yes you may put your text here for public veiwing.
I would suggest [ if it is in fact the entire FoG as opposed to edits or emmendations] putting it up in several sections [ feel free to omit the UT section if you made no changes to that section at all]. If you prefer posting it to a smaller audience, email me at theryans@pacific.net and I will help you get into the 'members' only forum. look forward to reading your edition, lindil
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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#4 |
Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
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well - day has come at last!
lindil has a new pc! and boy does it scoot! W/ any luck I shall be able to get a bit more down now that i do not have to spend the majority of my time waiting for pages to appear. anyway Aiwendil, a q. i have re: the next phase is wether we should keep stylistic editing seperate from textual cutting and pasting? meaning should the archaic BoLT language be left alone for the time being. I have from the begining hoped to massage the text to bring it closer to the UT of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin. But perhaps you do not, or perhaps you feel it is appropriate also but think we should save it for the phase following textual editing. I will eamil Ron re: the moderator biz, I think you were dropped during the switch from ezboard. [ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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#5 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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I think we probably should keep stylistic editing separate for now. I'm torn between a desire to even out the discrepancy between UT and BoLT and a desire not to tamper with Tolkien's words. I think at the very least we should eliminate all use of the historical present, but probably not much more than that. However, I think this issue should be dealt with later, once the other changes are made.
About the moderator business: it's really not important and needn't matter unless I have to edit a lot of text. I'm still not completely sure how we're actually going to post the revision, so I don't know whether that'll be a problem. Enjoy your new computer. |
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#6 |
Seeker of the Straight Path
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Aiwendil: you are right re: keeping the stylistic harmonization as a seperate process, I always want to jump the gun.
I concur that we should do a straight textual editing [ along with the tense=-shifting]first [although as for the sytlistic editing that is somethiong I would be inclined to go at alone if need be just to see whatwould happen] as you recommend. I tried to cut and paste all of the transition posts from page 2 of the FoG thread but I kept getting a prompt saying that we had html parantheses. Feel free to try a similar post your self. I had already emailed Ron [ I think it went through so you may notice your status and powers change.] Maybe you can give it a try. -=-=- My idea was to have a discussion thread based on the individual changes, and then have a seperate thread where the text would be posted w/out comment for folks to read. I imagine that we will just have to post re-edited versions of each of the proposed changes [ due to html tags]. Maybe you have a streamlined idea ? Any word from jallanite? [ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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#7 | ||||
The Kinslayer
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I don't know if this is the proper place to post this, or if this topic has been discussed and dealt with before.
From the Book of Lost Tales 2: The Fall of Gondolin Quote:
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Second, why is it that in one quote Legolas is referred as an elf and in the other as a man. To have the sight that he has, definitely I would think that he was an elf. I know that in the FOG, they refer the companies of the Houses (Glorfindel, Galdor) as men, is this going to be addressed at all.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#8 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 366
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There are numerous instances of Elves 're-using' names.
Legolas=elf because he was an Elf. Legolas=man because he was male.
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Tar-Elenion |
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#9 | |||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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These are my comments on some small things in Antoine's text, originally posted in the private forum. I think they should be here instead, for open discussion. That text is in agreement with our emendations at almost every point, and I think we should use it as a provisional draft. These comments are just on the Fall of Gondolin section; I'll have to go back and look at the UT section again, though that should, of course, not present very many problems.
Miscellaneous comments I've gone through the Fall of Gondolin section and made some notes: FG-TG-04 Quote:
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[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ] |
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#10 |
Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
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FG-C-03
Then said the king: [']Great is the fall of Gondolin['], and men shuddered, for such were the words of {Annon the prophet of old} [the prophecy of the North][,saying: ] ; but Tuor speaking wildly for ruth and love of the king cried: … -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aiwendil:I am definitely inclined not to use this, but rather to go with jallanite's original revision. I think that this change, while very clever, is too fan-fictionalized for this project. lindil: agreed, I have looked back over the post discussing this and while in prionciple it would seem to keep much of the old prophecy - it just does not fit. as for the lay of Earendil fragment I will have to look at that before rendering an opinion. And if anyone wants to pst Antoine's effort, all they need to do [ I think] is change over the bracketing system so that the forum does not read it as HTML code. For all of the newer folks who have been asking about how they can help... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] And what better way to get to know the text intimately [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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#11 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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I'm copying the discussion of these comments that has gone on in the private forum to this thread, so that all can comment.
Antoine: Quote:
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#12 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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I thought I'd revive this thread as a place for general discussion of what remains to be done on the Fall of Gondolin.
I can think of the following unresolved issues: 1. Rog 2. The two poems 3. The minute issue of "tallest of the Children of the World" 4. Where to put the chapter break 5. Is Gil-Galad at the Havens or on Balar? 6. The Elessar 7. The Oarni All are found in part 5 except Rog and the "tallest" issue. Is there anything else that ought to be added to the list? Of course, the big one here is Rog. Numbers 4 and 5 don't necessarily need to be resolved at the moment, as they really have more to do with the Tale of Earendil. Also, there are a few issues that were more or less settled but that we may wish to revisit once we have the revisions done: 1. Legolas - We had a vote on this and decided to keep the name, but to make the purely linguistic change to "Laegolas". But I know that Lindil was against this decision. There is an issue here regarding under what circumstances, if any, we can reopen an issue that was officially closed. I am on the one hand inclined to strive for a unanimous solution, but on the other hand I don't think we should be able to simply nullify the vote. 2. Mechanical Dragons - We initially decided to drop them, then later reinstated them, both without an official vote. I'm not inclined to alter our last decision, but we should at least note that if we want to third-guess ourselves, now's probably the time. (By the way - are there any technical details in the most recent round of mechanical dragon revisions that are still not closed?) 3. Was the Way of Escape permanently closed? - There was an informal decision that it was not. But again, we should at least take a minute and ponder this, and make sure we all agree with that decision. Numbers 2 and 3 are decisions that were never formally voted upon. Perhaps we should do that now. |
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#13 | |
The Kinslayer
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Issues:
1. Rog: I don't think that we can reach an unanimous compromise. I'm of the opinion that the character and his name should be retained. I know that lindil is against this but, I think that it would be a shame to delete all of that part of the battle and that the name Rog does appear in the Quenta account. I should make clear that, Rog does not kill any Balrog in our account. 2. The two poems: I personally think that it would be a shame to not use them in our version. As Squatter has already posted, some of the magic of the original Horns of Ylmir is lost with our emendations, and if no suitable corrections are found, I think it would be better to leave it in our appendix and not the main text. Regarding the Lay of Eärendel, I think that we might find some way to retain it in such a way as to use it as our beginning of Eärendil's chapter so that we preserve the fact that it was to be the beginning of it. 3. The minute issue of "tallest of the Children of the World": I have presented a proposal in which both differing views can be retained. Keep the main text as Aiwendil wants and with a foonote indicate that his brother Argon was taller than Turgon. 4. Is Gil-Galad at the Havens or on Balar?: I have been thinking at this for a long time. The problem that I see it is as follows, in the account of the Parentage of Gil Galad Quote:
What I would propose is the following: Have Gil-Galad escaped from the Fall of Nargothrond and for him to go first to the Isle of Balar and after the War of Wrath, he came to Sirion's Mouth and became King of the Ñoldor. Notice the use of the word eventually. This to me opens the possiblity of his going first to Balar and then to Siron's Mouth. 6 and 7. The Elessar and The Oarni: I already made my point on that in part 5 of the discussion of the Fog. My thoughts on the Elessar are almost exaclty those as Aiwendil's excecpt that I would be vague as to who made it. (Because Enerdhil was to be discarded by JRRT.) I would keep the Oarni, though they seem outdated and discontinued, that does not necessarily means that they were abandoned.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#14 |
Deathless Sun
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Or how about have Gil-galad "move" to Sirion after the Sons of Fëanor attack, not after the War of Wrath? While he was on the Isle of Balar, he could have believed that Sirion would be completely safe. After hearing about the Fall of Gondolin and after the attack by the Sons of Fëanor, he could have shifted to Sirion so that he would be closer "to the action" and have a better chance of defending his people.
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. |
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#15 |
The Kinslayer
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The only problem with that Finwë is that, would Gil-Galad being in Sirion wouldn't that mean that he would have to engage Maedhros and Maglor in order to free his people from the ruthless sons of Fëanor.
I would try to avoid any confrontation between Gil-Galad and the sons of Fëanor.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#16 |
Deathless Sun
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If he got to Sirion after their attack, he wouldn't have to confront them. As one of the last scions of Finwë, it would have been his "duty" to try and protect his people. He probably didn't realize that Sirion would be attacked. Naturally, afterwards, he would shift there in case future attacks occurred.
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. |
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#17 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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I think we take the mouth of Sirion to literarily here. From the Grey Annals we learn that Círdan already established a foothold at Lisgardh when he established the refuge on the isle of Balar.
So it is quiet natural than any fugitives that joined Círdan would first come to that haven at the mouth of Sirion. I think that Círdan was a lord of the Sindar and did not claim the lord-ship over the Noldor joining his people. When Gil-Galad came to Círdan after the fall of Nargothrond he was recognised by the Noldor of Círdans people as the noblest of blood among them and so taken as King of the Noldor in the company of Círdan. Since Círdan had ever been in friendship with the Noldor of Nargothrond, we can assume that he and Gil-Galad ruled the people in a friendly cooperation. It is further said, that Tour and Earendil when they moved to Sirions mouth "joined their folk to the slender company of Elwing daughter of Dior, that had fled thither little while before." That there is no mention of Círdans people already dwelling at the moth for a long time has the simple reason that we are dealing with old text were Círdan and his Falathrim had not been introduced. Also we learn later that Earendil was Lord of the People of the havens at Sirons mouth. We cannot reconcile that if at the same time Gil-Galad is the King of Noldor at Sirions mouth. After the attack of the Feanorians the havens were destroyed, so Gil-Galad could not be the King of the Noldor at Sirions moth later. So how can we deal with that now? We can take the Grey Annals and make Círdans Haven at Lisgardh only a small "foothold" to enable the passage of fugitives only not much populated. That allows us to take the first real settlement at the heavens to be done by Elwings people joined soon after by the fugitives of Gondolin. Than we must take the note about Gil-Galad in The Shiboleth less literarily to mean the area of Sirions mouth since the most of the People (Sindar under Círdan and Noldor under Gil-Galad after he came there) dwelt upon the isle of Balar, with Gil-Galad joining Círdan upon the isle. It is to be mentioned that at the time of the Fall of Gondolin most Noldor that had fled to the south were probably people of the house of Finarfin (e.g. Arminas and Gelmir that brought the message of Ulmo to Nargothrond). The people of Fingon would have been in a big part rescued by Turgon when he withdraw from the Nirneath, or could we imagine the rest of host of Fingon taken refuge in Gondolin when the women and children were left behind in Hithlum? (The people of Annael lived fare to the west and so were not "rescued".) And the Feanorians were gathered in Eastbeleriand even after Himring had fallen. So only the Elves of Dorthonion and Nargothrond would have taken refuge with Círdan whom they knew as a friend of their former Lords (Finrod and Orordreth). This situation changed when Tuor and his people came to the moth of Sirion. They were a big folk not only small group. The Noldor among them were mostly of the house of Fingolfin, and they brought a family of their own leaders with them: Idirl and Tour with their son Earendil. But they did establish themselves at the heavens and did not sail to the isle of Balar. They were clearly in very friendly terms with Círdan, since it is told in the late writing Círdan that "Earendil was 'apprenticed' to Círdan, who aided him in the building of Vingilot." But I do not think that they accepted Gil-Galad as their king (not jet, when Earendil was lost at the sea and the folk was diminished by the attack of the Feanorinas, this would be other wise). I would say it is best to stick to Christopher Tolkiens Idea in so fare as to place Gil-Galad with Círdan on the Isle of Balar and coming to late to the battle of the heavens. Respectfully Findegil |
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#18 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Good to see you, Finwe.
I think Finwe and Maedhros both have interesting ideas, but I'm hesitant to move in that direction. We seem to be inventing a bit much if we say that he went to Balar then returned to the mouths of Sirion. I like Findegil's suggestion, though I don't really agree on this one point: Quote:
But that has little bearing on our revisions. I agree with Findegil that we can retain the scenario where Gil-Galad lives on Balar and, with Cirdan, comes too late to the aid of the people of Gondolin and Doriath. |
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#19 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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By right Gil-Galad might have been High King of all Noldor in Middle-Earth. But even Fingon and Turgon had not wealded the same authority as had Fingolfin done. And in the end even Fingolfin was not able to move the Noldor to an attack upon Morgoth prior to the Bargolach. But it might be right that he claimed the Titel and was accepted by the People. At least it makes our editing much easier to use your idea.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#20 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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It's true that Fingon and Turgon never wielded the same influence as Fingolfin. But, as you point out, even Fingolfin - though he was clearly the "King of all the Noldor" in title - could not organize an assault on Angband when he wished. This indicates that a lack of absolute authority need not be taken as an indication that Gil-Galad did not claim the title of King of the Noldor.
Christopher Tolkien's reading also seems to be that Gil-Galad inherited the "High Kingship", by the way; from the '77: "And when tidings came to Balar of the fall of Gondolin and the death of Turgon, Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon was named High King of thie Noldor in Middle-earth." |
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#21 | |||||
The Kinslayer
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Minor nitpicking from my part:
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Regarding our other points: Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#22 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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It still feels very strange to me to change Orodreth>Arothir. But if it must be done . . .
Still, I think we should each make a careful check of HoMe, to make sure that "Orodreth" is not used later than the note. For that note is the only place I recall "Arothir" ever appearing. Presuming that Findegil is agreeabale on the aforementioned points, that leaves only: 1. Rog 2. The poems 4. The chapter break |
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#23 | |||
The Kinslayer
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As for the chapter break: I propose that we finish with this chapter: Quote:
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As for the Horns of Ylmir, I would hope that there is a way as to salvage it in order to use it in the main narrative, but if that is to be done, unfortunately that evades my skill with the english language. Perhaps in the Appendix of our work it could be included. Regarding Rog: I'm of the opinion that we should both keep his name and his deeds in our main narrative. I know that lindil was voiced his opinion against this, but I feel that we would loose a lot of the story if we keep him out. As a matter of fact, I don't think we will be perfectly satisfied in this point. What I suggest is that we keep him, and if we find in the future some evidence that invalidates the presence of Rog, we could remove him. Until such an observation, I would keep him as we have.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#24 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Maedhros wrote:
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I think that your idea for the chapter break is good, not least because we preserve the beginning point of the Tale of Earendil from Q30. Quote:
"The Horns of Ulmo" is trickier. Squatter is quite correct about the damage done by the loss of symmetry. I don't think that it cripples the poem, but it does make it weaker. I will look at the poem when I get time and see if I can think of some way to salvage it. |
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#25 | |||
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 26
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Hi,
1. Rog Really, this is very difficult for me to argument a choice here. For esthetic preference I prefer Rôg. 2. The two poems About Horns of Ylmir I like the new introduction of this poem that agree with "the land of willows". The new corrections looks good for me. The exchange of died and cease come from my edition of Home (English version). But anyway the sentance looks good now ! Just a little detail, there is the word Gods in the sentance Quote:
About Lay of Earendil See point 4 3. The minute issue of "tallest of the Children of the World" Quote:
It's look for me like tallest of all except this ... and that ... and we don't count this one ... I have no better solution but I don't like this result 4. Where to put the chapter break In my private work of Revised Silmarillion ( a work about all the Revised Silmarillion arrangement - but not about text details) I have always thinking that the Fog break is : Quote:
About the insert of the Lay, it look good for me. About the changes, nothing ... I agree. 5. Is Gil-Galad at the Havens or on Balar? 6. The Elessar 7. The Oarni The last 3 points, I agree but in the futur, when we will work the last chapter, I think it will be good to reopen the problems. 8. About Mechanical Dragons. 6 months after, I answer about that ... sorry it was incredible busy time for me ( and specialy a wedding in the end of august 2003 that was the discussion period ![]() I agree with the new vision - amazing work Fingedil. 9. About publishing .... on the board first ![]() A new PDF version is ready, checked by Maedhros. I hope I forgot nothing. A good thing can be a ultimate checking by active members. I can send by email a PDF or a word document. Fingedil, Lindil, Aiwendil PM me on my personnal mail (cf my account). Last edited by Antoine; 02-17-2004 at 01:18 PM. |
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#26 | |||||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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It's great to see you, Antoine.
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Still, I think you have a point. Perhaps we should just delete the sentence. Quote:
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#27 |
Spirit in Eriador
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Adelaide
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maybe we should wait until these last few minor issues are tied up, then review it (and, I think, send it to some of the semi-active or former members of the project for review
Please I would love to review what has been done. ![]()
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In prosperity our friends know us; in adversity we know our friends. |
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#28 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Nice to see you post again Antione. And again you make the marvellous editing work we all have clearly sometimes whished for.
Okay lets go through the List of Aiwendil: 1. Rog: I am strongly against the deletion of the character. But what is about the name? I have looked up the Quenya Lexicon, but as with Oarni it did not show any information beyond the appendix LT1. So we have "Rog" as the last form in the Tale and Q30. Or we can go back to "Rôg" as the original form in the Tale. "Rôg" seems for most of us to sound better, but "Rog" has a little bit more authority, since it is later. I am at a lose to decide anything, in that matter. 2. The Poems: The Horns of Ylmir are currently under discussion. We should give that development a bit of time. Earendel should definitely be discussed later, when we work out the chapter about Eärendils voyage. Over all I think we could work in the moment with out both poems and add them in if we find good solutions for the emendations. 3. The tall Turgon: I would like to make at least clear that he was the tallest of all the assembly in the place of the king in Gondolin when Tuor arrived. In the Tale Tour is describe as being greater than all the Noldor, so it seems Tolkien imagined him to be tall. But here we have the statement that says that Turgon was taller than Tour and I think we should provide that information. 5. Is Gil-Galad at the Havens or on Balar?: I think we have an agreement here. 6. The Elessar: I can live with Maédhros last version of an ominous jewel-smith, but what is about stating that it was made in Gondolin: Quote:
Issues to be thought of again: 1. Laegolas: I have not been a member when this was discussed. (May be that was luckily for me and the project, since I hold a completely contrary view of that issue than any one else in the discussion.) The Solution you found after so much hard discussion is acceptable for me. (Since it allows still anything the reader wants it to mean.) So I say: Let's not open again that Box of Pandora! 2. The mechanical monsters: I have joined mostly too push you to the acceptance of the mechanical monsters. So I do not fear to discuss it again. But I am happy, that most of the members seems to agree with my proposal. 3. Was the Way of Escape permanently closed? Could we imagine that Turgon, an immortal being, planed to live for ever in Gondolin, what ever happened in the outside world? I don't think so. Respectfully Findegil P.S.: Woh, what a speed in the project! Have I missed something? Never mind, do not stop to think about it! Let's go on with it! |
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#29 | |||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Alkanoonion wrote:
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Findegil wrote: Quote:
Quote:
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But as for the specific emendation needed in FG-C-31, I think we are agreed. Quote:
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#30 |
The Kinslayer
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Apart from the emendations that need to be made to the Horns of Ylmir to make it suitable to fit our main narrative, are there any other points that need to be addressed to finalize our Fog?
The Lay of Eärendel will be in the next chapter so it is not part of our Fog. As a side note, I have been working with Antoine in revising the file that has all of our emendations and we are very close to finishing it.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#31 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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As fare as I cna see only the problem of "Turgon the tallest of ..." is still underdiscussion. Antione had rejected our emendation and I still wich for some sort of statment that he is taller than anbody else around. But as Antione I did not have a nice solution for that at hand.
In the end we are talking about an editorial addition. If we can not make it fit in nicely it must be left out. So if nothing comes up that satisfying all of us we must leaf the statment simply out. Respectfully Findegil |
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#32 |
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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I think that those are the only two remaining issues.
Antoine, do you have another proposal for the "tallest" bit? I think that Findegil makes a good case that we should include some reference to Turgon being tall. At least "talling of the living children of the World, save Thingol" is canonically sound. |
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#33 | |
The Kinslayer
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Regarding the Tallest Issue:
From Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin Quote:
To me, the part about Turgon being tall was to especify that although Tuor was taller than most of the Gondolindrim, but Turgon was indeed taller than him. Our editorial additon of using living seems to me as Aiwendil has said, canonically correct and we retain JRRT words with only one editorial addition. I had also thought about using a statement that Turgon was the tallest in the chamber when Tuor entered but that scenario seemed ackward to me. I can think of several times when we have used other more intrusive emendations in our work. I would stick with Aiwendil's idea. As far as the emendations of the Horns of Ulmo poem, I will take some time to review your ideas and try to come up with some. I do not think that it is essential that we finish our discussion of the poem in order to have our draft, we can state in our draft that in this place goes an emended poem, which can be revised later.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#34 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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To be honest, I'd prefer to finish work on the poem for the draft. We're going to have to deal with anyway, so we might as well do it now.
I think the real issue with the poem is the damage done by leaving it out vs. the damage done by fabricating a piece of one line, and emending other places. |
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