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07-26-2004, 03:33 AM | #1 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 06 – The Old Forest
This chapter begins with darkness; though the hobbits are still in Crickhollow, their brief refuge, they are on the verge of leaving. The ominous Old Forest lies ahead of them, and Fatty Bolger’s words
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The darkness of the forest pervades the chapter, with only Merry’s cheerfulness and a bit of light in the clearings brightening it up. The hobbits have only just left the Shire and already encounter danger not from the Ring or the Riders, but from a hostile environment that has nothing to do with Sauron’s influence, at least not directly so. I find it interesting that the trees can apparently understand human language, since they react to the words of the hobbits, especially those about the woods failing. In this situation, where the hobbits have no choice but to take the path chosen for them by the trees, Sam’s bit of heroism saves the day, tiding them over until Tom Bombadil is introduced as their rescuer. (Insert nonsensical poetry here ) At the end of the chapter, an open door and light await them, with Goldberry’s welcoming song. I find the last sentence wonderfully evocative: Quote:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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07-26-2004, 06:45 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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One observation here: the Old Forest trees enmity illustrates a depth brought to Middle-earth which PJ's movies missed, that there are autonomous forces for good and ill operating. Earlier, Gildor says:
"The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth." And later Aragorn and Gimli about Caradhras. Aragorn: "There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he." "Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name," said Gimli, "long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands." Middle-earth can be doubly treacherous, then. It is more then a matter of watching out for Sauron's agents. There are unsuspected and unplanned for agents for good and ill, perhaps operating independent of others, which is in a way more realistic and gives a feeling of depth to the world. And, of course, it gives Tolkien the first of his chances to have trees react to two-legged "aggression". |
07-26-2004, 07:21 AM | #3 | |||||||||||
Illustrious Ulair
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(Yes, this is a long post - anyone who feels daunted, please skip it, & just pretend it never happened!)
Well, after two, on the surface, slow, uneventful chapters, things start moving! We enter the Old Forest (I can hear the screams from some readers now - ‘Tom Bombadil- ARRGH!!!!!’) We are now entering strange territory - the Old Forest & Old Tom. Where to begin? Verlyn Flieger’s essay ‘Taking the Part of Trees’ (in JRR Tolkien & his Literary Resonances offers some insight into the nature of the Old Forest: Quote:
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Yet, what struck me more forcefully re-reading this chapter, was the way its not simply OMW, or even the trees themselves, which are the threat - the whole forest, even the earth itself, seems to actively conspire. The land seems to change shape in order to direct the hobbits to the centre of the wood, seeming to become boggy, or solid, opening into gullies, raising itself up, lowering itself down as necessary. Even the air itself seems maliciously to ‘drug’ them, while the trees try to sing them to sleep so that OMW can consume them. And Tolkien communicates this dreamlikeness in some of the most beautiful prose in literature: Quote:
But then the weirdest thing of all happens - Jolly Tom appears! Actually, the way he’s described, he seems to rise out of the earth: Quote:
Brian Rosebury, in Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon, describes Tom thus: Quote:
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*One possibility which Flieger doesn’t explore is Tolkien’s ‘conceit’ - that LotR is a translation of the Red book of Westmarch - it was written by hobbits from their perspective. Tolkien himself may ‘take the part of trees as against all their enemies’ (letter 319) but that doesn’t mean that the hobbits do - a ‘well ordered & well farmed countryside’, which they love, requires the clearing of natural woodland - the two - as Flieger points out, cannot co-exist - one must be sacrificed in favour of the other. Treebeard may mourn: Quote:
Frodo’s song, ending with the line ‘For east or west all woods must fail’ wouldn’t be the kind of thing Treebeard would approve of - & nor, we can assert, would Tolkien.Merry's suggestion of tuning & giving the trees a rousing chorus of the song when they get out of the forest, in the light of the hobbits rampant destruction of the trees, is simply adding insult to injury. Perhaps Tolkien is making a subtle & easily missed point when he has Merry & Pippin enter Fangorn & meet Treebeard. Merry has a lesson to learn if he is to become Master of Buckland in the future, & have responsibility for the Old Forest.
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07-26-2004, 09:39 AM | #4 | ||
Late Istar
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This is the first real adventure chapter in the book; so far we have had the Black Riders appear threateningly from time to time, but that threat has not yet been realized. It is something of a twist, then, to more or less forget the Black Riders for a chapter (indeed, for three chapters) and to suddenly put the Hobbits into an unrelated bit of trouble. In fact there is something rather odd about it, I think. Few authors would so carefully build up the threat of the Nazgul, and go to great lengths to illustrate the nature of the Ring and get its story started, only to drop these threads almost completely after just five chapters and present us with a three-chapter interlude concerning other things. One could (as Ralph Bakshi and Peter Jackson know very well) simply cut these three chapters out without creating many problems for the later narrative.
Why does Tolkien do this? I think the real answer is simply that, at the time he wrote these chapters, he didn't know any better. That is to say, he had not yet worked out the whole plot and in fact had not yet realized that LotR was going to be much different from The Hobbit. The Old Forest was conceived of as just an adventure that Frodo has along the way, for originally it was simply to be a story about Frodo's adventures. But of course later, when Tolkien did understand what LotR was going to be, he retained these chapters. I would guess that this was partly just habit - once the narrative got going, he never made any huge changes to parts he'd already written. A more commercially-minded author would probably have deleted the Old Forest, Tom Bombadil, and the Barrow-downs since they don't directly concern the main plot of the book. But I think that there is value in these chapters as they are, as Tolkien must have realized. First of all, they are simply interesting in themselves. But that's not quite a sufficient explanation, for one can imagine any number of miscellaneous adventures that are interesting in themselves and yet were not and should not have been added to the text. I think one virtue of these chapters is that identified by Tuor of Gondolin: Quote:
Another thing this interlude does is to extend the threat of the Nazgul by delaying its resolution. Chapters 3, 4, and 5 have set up the Black Riders as a threat and we know that it will only be a matter of time before they begin to do more than simply sniff and scream. The reader anticipates some kind of confrontation with the Black Riders. That anticipation is firmly in place by the end of chapter 5. So through chapters 6, 7, and 8, on top of everything else, the reader is thinking about the Black Riders and still anticipating an eventual confrontation. To illustrate this point, imagine how much poorer Book I would be if these three chapters were placed after the Weathertop encounter. And a final justification for not excising these chapters: while they are almost unrelated to the central plot, they are not completely so. There is the obvious relation, for example, between the Old Forest and Fangorn. As for chapter 6 itself, what struck me on rereading it was the way Tolkien slowly builds up the tension right to the climax of the chapter. This is one of his chief strengths, I think; it's already been noted in relation to the Black Riders in chapters 3, 4, and 5. Here, we begin with the Old Forest being more or less just a forest, if one which, according to Merry, has queer things living in it. Then we find that the trees bar their way and make Pippin uneasy. Then Frodo's song seems to disturb them. Then briefly the tension is eased when they stand at the top of the hill and look out across the forest. Then they go on, making good progress at first, but slowly finding that the forest is forcing them in its desired direction. Then they become completely lost and unable to choose their own direction at all. Finally they arrive in the Withywindle valley itself and struggle with a strange drowsiness. Then suddenly Old Man Willow strikes, and in a brief space we have some minor heroics by Sam and the appearance of Tom Bombadil. Looking at it this way, what Tolkien does is present a series of minor incidents each of which alters the tension in some way. Most add to it, a little bit at a time. One detracts from it - which only makes its eventual reappearance more striking. And only at the very climax does anything actually happen. A mistake too many authors make is to think that the reader is conscious only of what is happening at the moment, so that they think a constant level of action must be maintained for the story to be interesting. Tolkien realizes that readers have a memory and also a sense of anticipation, so that each of the little incidents he presents adds to the tension. Davem wrote: Quote:
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07-26-2004, 01:30 PM | #5 |
A Mere Boggart
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Firstly, I can't comprehend what the book would be like without chapters 6 to 8, they add in, for want of a better word, a lot of 'magic' to the tale. And what's great about this 'magic' is that it is not of the hocus-pocus, casting spells type, but of the ancient, earth-based variety. There are sections later in the book which could also have easily been left out, e.g. the Woses, but they add to the sense of ancient history in Middle Earth.
Old Man Willow is a frightening figure, made all the more real when you think about the properties and uses of willow. It is a tree that can be chopped up and turned into a fence, which will mysteriously take root and sprout leaves. It is the tree which was (allegedly) used to construct the Wicker Man. And, in some British towns where they celebrate May Day with dancers dressed as 'Jack in the green', they use willow to make the framework for the costume. Jack in the green is who I think of when I read about Tom Bombadil. It's probably been said a thousand times before, but to me he is The Green Man, the woodland spirit. He is the master of the woodlands and Old Man Willow, but I'm getting dangerously close to straying into the next chapter here. Getting back to the chapter, I love the sense of how being lost in a woodland feels. When the path disappears, Mery is convinced that the trees are conspiring to hide it, and this is how it does feel when you get lost while out walking. The hobbits sense movements and sounds as though the trees are moving, which is another eerie sensation that can grip you. As for fitting into the narrative, this chapter and the following two are technically well placed as they provide a transition from the world the hobbits (and readers) have got to know and feel comfortable in, to the wider world, untamed and altogether more dangerous. |
07-26-2004, 02:29 PM | #6 |
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I agree that in this chapter we see the first contact with the unknown for the hobbits and I think it's nicely symbolised by the passage through the gate and the finality of its closing: with this act they leave behind all that is familiar and comforting to walk into and towards danger - the mists that envelope them are a clear (no pun intended ! ) signal for this.
What I'm not really sure of is the evil intent of the Old Forest - apart from Old Man Willow we never actually see the trees moving or actively doing something: I wonder whether this is just the product of the hobbits' imagination, aided by Merry's quite scary tale and combined with the strange environment they find themselves into. It might seem that the hobbits, taking with them their fears and doubts (and maybe some guilty feelings about the actions taken by their compatriots against the forest) give substance to the impression that nature is conspiring against them. After all, when Old Man Willows exerts his "charms" the only one keeping his wits about him is Sam - the most levelheaded (and less imaginative ?) of the four. |
07-26-2004, 03:21 PM | #7 | ||
Illusionary Holbytla
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Hi, Fimbrethil, welcome to our discussion and the Downs!
In this chapter something struck me that I haven't noticed before. There was a certain 'magic' about it, very akin to that of the Hobbit. I think this is partly because it gets away from the darker aspects of the story (the Ring, the Black Riders) and while the adventure they have in the chapter is certainly dangerous, it is of the "simpler" sort. Even though the mood surrounding the Forest is very dark indeed - it goes from extremely foggy (somehow a very fitting way to begin the adventure) to a dark, queer sojourn through the Forest - the chapter seems almost light, especially compared to the rest of the book. Part of this is perhaps Merry's relative familiarity with the Forest and his way of taking the Forest so lightly (that is how it has always seemed to me anyway). Something else that hadn't occurred to me in recent readings is the image of the path by the Withywindle that we are given. The scene is much more vivid right now than many images I get from books (being that I am one who does not generally get images when I read). Quote:
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07-27-2004, 01:48 AM | #8 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Aiwendil said:
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Also, this passage seems to be a prelude, or taste, of Fangorn Forest later on in the book. The same type of forest, with dangerous creatures (i.e. Old Man Willow) and wild rivers, as well as trees that can move and 'talk', besides being an extension of Fangorn near the Shire, anyway, the Old Forest on the borders of Buckland sets up nicely what is going to be a major factor later on- Fangorn Forest- although we don't know it yet. Tom Bombadil and Treebeard also seem to have a lot in common with me- both old, interested in nature (an understatement) and knowledgeable about the Elder Days. Even at the very start, we can see that Tom is a very merry and kind fellow by assisting all the hobbits- Quote:
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Now let the song begin! Let us sing together Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather, Light on the budding leafe, dew on the feather, Wind on the open hill, bells on the heather, Reeds by the shady pool, lillies on the water: Old Tom Bombadil and the River-daughter! Delightful.
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07-27-2004, 08:07 AM | #9 |
Laconic Loreman
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Close to Mordor, heading to doom.
In the first beginning chapters almost every chapter whenever the hobbits are in some sort of trouble they find a safe "haven" or house to rest at, Farmer Maggot's, Crickhollow, Tom Bombadil, Gildor's elves, Strider, Rivendell. Then past Rivendell as they start getting closer to Mount Doom, the "friendly" people start fading. You have Galadriel and Faramir, that's all I can remember. Then once leaving Faramir and entering into Mordor, they're on their own, no more "friendly" people to come give them a nice place to sleep at, or warm beds, well cooked meals...etc. If you look at some of the troubles in the beginning chapters, the Black Riders numerous times, Old man Willow, the Barrow-wright. The troubles towards the end are Shelob, Orcs at Cirith Ungol, Gollum, destroying the ring, all are probably "bigger" problems then the ones from the beginning, and also theres no one there to help them out they have to overcome it themself. Showing The growth of the Hobbits.
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07-28-2004, 07:13 PM | #10 | ||||||||||
Corpus Cacophonous
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Tree is Company (or not)
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I found this line quite curious: Quote:
I have to put my hand up here and admit that I am not a great fan of Tom Bombadil ( ). I am one of those who finds his manner and ambiguity rather at odds with the remainder of the story, although I have come to appreciate him more over the years. I am, however, partial to the encounters with Old Man Willow and (later on) the Barrow-Wight. So it rather annoys me that the Hobbits have to be rescued by Old Tom in each of these encounters. In a sense, I would prefer that they were able to overcome these menaces themselves. I do, however, see the sense in what Boromir88 says: Quote:
A word about the Old Forest and, in particuar, Old Man Willow. Davem said: Quote:
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And while I agree with davem that the whole Forest is actively conspiring against them, I would not agree that Old Man Willow is only one aspect of this. He seems to me to be the most important aspect, indeed the driving force behind it. Merry comments that: Quote:
Davem also said: Quote:
Which brings me, finally, to Tolkien's seemingly ambivalent attitude toward trees in this chapter. We know that he himself greatly prized trees and, throughout the rest of the book, they are portrayed sympathetically. We have the instances in the opening chapters where hollow trees provide the Hobbits with refuge during their trek through the Shire (in stark contrast to the "refuge" that Old Man Willow provides within his trunk). And later we have the Elves' symbiotic relationship with the trees of Lothlorien and, of course, good old Treebeard and his pivotal intervention in the War of the Ring. So why does Tolkien portray trees as such enemies here? I am not so sure that it is, as davem suggests, an aspect of the "conceit" of the tale having been set down by the Hobbits. We have to take the events at face vaue and this, I think, includes Old Man Willow's unprovoked attack on them. I tend to agree, rather, with Aiwendil: Quote:
Yet again, a much longer post than I intended. Sorry.
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07-29-2004, 12:59 AM | #11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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As many people have mentioned their first real adventure starts in this chapter.
At first it was just a threat. The Black Riders were there but the hobbits never made actual contact with the Black Riders. With Old Man Willow however they get into a physical conflict. The danger is no longer just a threat it has become more real than before. The chapter starts very mysteriously with fog and becomes only more mysterious when the Hobbits enter the forrest. With such a build-up of the mood something has to happen of course. What also adds to the somewhat dreary mood is the strange dream Frodo had at the end of Chapter 5. This chapter also made it clear to me that ME was indeed a very magical place. This chapter made ME more real to me because a real world has many mysteries that will never be answered. Our own is also full of mysteries plus our world has so many myths and legends just like ME. The amount of mysteries that are discovered in this chapter ( all those tales about the Old forest) adds to the book's historical feel.
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07-29-2004, 06:24 AM | #12 | ||
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Firefoot wrote:
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The Saucepan Man wrote: Quote:
I'm thinking here of the often heard warning for heroes involved in a quest that <You will find nothing here that you don't bring yourself> (it echoes what my father used to say to me when I was a small child, afraid of the dark "there is nothing here that is not also here when it's light"): maybe the hobbits were simply adding their fears of the unknown into a difficult situation, making it worse. (Old Man Willow, is, of course, another matter ....) |
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07-29-2004, 07:09 AM | #13 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Admission time: I have advised several people who were trying to read LotR and finding it difficult to “get into it” to skip over Tom Bombadil entirely. It has worked in almost every case, and I am delighted to say that these readers came back later to read these chapters. But still, as several people have already indicated, there is a sense in which these chapters are dispensable – they just don’t “fit” was I believe the word.
Clinging to the idea that anything that’s in a text must, be definition, have a place in it, and placing my faith in the artistry of Tolkien, I will now elaborate why I think this chapter is indispensable to the fabric of the whole. I think that this interlude is an important and necessary reminder to the reader that while the story to come is going to be all about the War of the Ring, that this is not the whole story of Middle-Earth. The war between Elves and Melkor/Sauron has taken place within much of the historical time of Middle-Earth, but that conflict does not in and of itself define the nature of the world that is going to be created for us in the tale to come. History is the story of the people on the land, not the land itself, and with Old Man Willow and Tom Bombadil we are given mythic, almost allegorical, representations of that natural realm over and upon which history takes place, but over which, ultimately, history has no power. Sauron can enslave the land, the Elves can work within it and attempt to preserve it, but neither side can change its nature, nor can they make or unmake it. The fact that these three chapters around Tom take place so much and so obviously ‘outside’ the rest of the story is very much the point. It’s a demonstration that for all the dangers and import of their quest, the hobbits are just taking part in a passing tale being acted out on the stage-of-reality offered by the natural realm. The characterisation of this natural realm in Old Man Willow and Tom/Goldberry is tremendous, and – like I said – near allegorical. Take the description of the hobbits’ succumbing to OMW: Quote:
This natural realm is a truly magic place. There is surprisingly little magic in the book: the Elves speak of their “art” and “crafting” and Sauron is all about “deceptions,” “lies” and “domination.” But here, just over the edge of the known, is a realm that casts a “spell” upon the hobbits. The historical conflict between “deceptions” and “art” that we characterise in terms of “evil” versus “good” is just not apparent or even relevant here. In this place is true magic – the power that springs from nature but moves beyond the natural. An unhistorical and wild force that escapes all attempts to categorise, anatomise or understand. Tom Bombadil is nonsensical, yes, because that is the nature of, well, nature – it is non-rational, utterly mysterious, and wholly alien and other. Finally, I think that these chapters give us a glimpse into a realm that is like the Shire in its disconnect from the ‘great’ matters of the world at large, but in a different way. Whereas the hobbits are (wilfully) ignorant of the darkness and light of the wide world, Old Man Willow and Tom are fully aware of both, they just do not care for such matters – they are unimportant and irrelevant, in the long run. In this way, they ‘surpass’ the gazes of every other being in the book: even Gandalf and Treebeard are trapped in their historical view of the struggle between good and evil. I think that in the end, this interlude in the Old Forest allows us to see how Gildor is as limited in his view as he condemned the hobbits as being. Just as the Elf is this figure from the wide world who opens the hobbits’ eyes, Tom and OMW are figures from an unhistorical plane of existence (nature) that surpasses the historical combat between Gildor’s people and the Enemy.
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07-29-2004, 07:36 AM | #14 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Originally posted by Lathriel
"I think that this interlude is an important and necessary reminder to the reader that while the story to come is going to be all about the War of the Ring, that this is not the whole story of Middle-Earth." ------------------------------------- It is part of the artistry of giving Middle-earth depth and making it feel more "real." Among other examples, Gildor's earlier comments to Frodo: "The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth." and Sam's vision about them being part of a story that has been going on and will continue long after them. and Caradhras acting as an autonomous evil force. |
07-29-2004, 02:36 PM | #15 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Saucepan Man raised the question of:
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Moving towards the idea of nature as a force unto itself, the contrast of the 'evil' Old Forest with the 'good' Fangorn (or is it?) is interesting, as the former is a woodland which has been under attack from the people who have moved to live on the borders, while Fangorn had apparently remained until then relatively undamaged. And Treebeard himself is moved by this destruction to act, so why should Old Man Willow not also act, after all he does not know the nature of the hobbits and their quest. This does show that there is indeed something deeper in Middle Earth than the events which happen upon it. The inscrutable forces of nature and man's attempts to make sense of these are a feature of myth, legend and ancient history, and it's clear that Tolkien has incorporated this into his work. Far from being 'sidelines' to the story, I see the Old Forest chapters as essential in making the story deeper and richer. I argued with someone the other day about these chapters being extraneous. Part of my argument being that Lord of the Rings was not merely a project to be finished up efficiently, but a novel set in a place which needed bringing to life and making as vivid as possible. Yes, you could easily read LOTR without reading chapters 6 to 8, but you would also miss out on much of what makes the tale so unique. I've said to people that they could skip some of the poetry if they wish, but I hated having to say this as to me it misses the point to 'skip' things. |
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07-29-2004, 02:41 PM | #16 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Actually Tuor I think it was Fordim who said that
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07-29-2004, 02:46 PM | #17 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
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But I was going to say it, SpM just beat me to it. Yeah, that's it. . .
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07-29-2004, 04:48 PM | #18 |
Laconic Loreman
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Confusion?
lol, Fordhim Hedgethistle unless by some meaning that you are joking by this, but you are the one who wrote that comment lol.
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07-29-2004, 07:56 PM | #19 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
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World War Tree
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Hobbits would no doubt have cleared some residual woods for habitation, agriculture etc. And they do of course use wood as a material for building, making tools and burning for warmth, cooking etc. As do Men, Dwarves and even Elves, though. Even Rivendell, presumably, and the furniture within it, is largely wooden in construction. The difficulty that I have is that the comradeship that Treebeard and his Entish fellows, in common with Old Man Willow, have with trees would appear to conflict significantly with the lifestyles and needs of the other races of Middle-earth. Of course, this all goes back to the "creation" (or perhaps a better word is conception) of the Ents by Yavanna , in response to her husband's "creation" of the Dwarves. She did so to protect the forests from the Dwarves' axes. But, as I have mentioned, it is not just Dwarves who have need of wood. All of the races use it. So Yavanna's actions would seem to have initiated an irreconcilable conflict between her own "creations" and Iluvatar's (other) Children. This is not reflected in Treebeard's acceptance of Merry and Pippin and, later, other representatives of the races of Man, Dwarf and Elf (in contrast to his hatred of Orcs). But it is represented in the actions of Old Man Willow and his forest. They both have the same concerns so why do they not react in the same way? Perhaps Old Man Willow (like the Japanese soldier on the South Pacific Island) is still carrying on a war that his distant cousins elsewhere in Middle-earth have long since abandoned recognising the need to live in harmony with the other "good" races of Middle-earth. Is this the root ( ) of Old Man Willow's evil? Is it that he has not recognised that need for this harmony? Hmm. Perhaps these matters were discussed at great length at the Entmoot. Perhaps the Ents went to great lengths (naturally) to debate how the (wood-consuming) actions of Saruman and his Orcs might be distinguished from those of the (similarly wood-consuming) free peoples. Perhaps I should wait until we get to the relevant chapter before going on ... One further thought, though. Aren't the actions of Old Man Willow much more consistent with the conception of a race of sentient trees?
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07-29-2004, 08:38 PM | #20 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
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I admit to being dotty, spotty and even a little potty, but mad I am not. I assure you all, that the point in question was made by Saucy himself in all of his clamourous glory. It was made in post #10 to be entirely precise, and to lay this debate to rest once and for all I hereby and forthwith quote the relevant paragraph in full:
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*ahem* Old Man Willow's actions clearly demonstrate that, beyond all shadowy form of a doubt, balrogs had wings. Tom's song is a clear indication that orcs possessed free will and could be saved. The reference to Goldberry at the conclusion of the chapter makes it irrefutable that Arda was always round.
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07-29-2004, 09:00 PM | #21 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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:Sigh: I tried to join this discussion eariler but I was too confused and now I am even more so. I will check back when you guys seem to be talking about something of relevence.
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07-29-2004, 09:44 PM | #22 |
Haunting Spirit
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I remember how I felt at the beginning of this chapter the first time I read it. I felt that something awful was going to happen and then it turned out to be nothing. Then feeling of foreboding of the Hedge and the trees once they went through the gate, the stifling air in the forest, the "taking of the hobbits" by Old Man Willow and wondering what that Old Tom Bombadil was up to just when we get to the warmth of the house of Tom Bombadil-Tolkien really knew how to keep the reader guessing and how to bring their emotions to highs and lows in this chapter. What a wonderful storyteller and one of my most favorite chapters!!!!
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07-30-2004, 02:15 AM | #23 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Tolkien does seem to have an ambiguous attitude to trees - he likes individual ones, he likes tame woodland - from the woods of the Shire to Lorien, but actual wildwood is always threatening - The Old Forest, Mirkwood, Taur nu Fuin. Come to think of it, all wild nature presents a threat to his created, sentient races.
I wonder if this is historical - wild forest was the habitation of real threats - not moving trees, but bears, wolves, wild boar. It was also the ideal place for all our ancestors fears to be projected upon. I think this comes across particularly in the dreamlike air of the Old Forest, which seems to exist in a state between dreaming & waking. How can a whole environment be 'alive' in that way? The earth itself seems conscious & malevolent. And then, as Flieger has pointed out, Tom appears, the most dreamlike being of all - possibly the most dreamlike being Tolkien created. Truly wild nature is always awe inspiring, potentially threatening - like the trees that 'attacked' the hedge - it is always trying to reassert its old dominance. But that's also 'natural' - the trees are not behaving maliciously, they are simply doing what it is in their nature to do. On another level we seem to have the old world of the 'dreamtime' attempting to overwhelm the 'awakened' world of civilisation & sweep it away. In a way, the hobbits are passing into an older world, of dreams, myth, legends - of wizards, goblins, Magic, of fairy story. The 'sensible' hobbits like Ted Sandyman are the ones who have awakened from the dream & are fighting like mad to stay awake & not be overwhelmed by 'Old Man Willow's 'song' & be swallowed up by the dreamworld. Yet, they're the least admirable characters, the ones we'd least like to be. And Frodo is the great dreamer, the one who is always half dreaming throughout his early life in the Shire, & who is most at home in the dreamworld of Middle Earth beyond the Shire's borders, who only seems to wake up once he leaves, & feels he is 'falling asleep again' when he returns home. Frodo is the one who, ultimately cannot go back home & must depart finally for the dreamworld in the West at the end. Frodo, it seems, never truly belongs in 'our' waking world - perhaps, like Galahad, he has been born solely to perform his task of taking the Ring to the Fire, & then departing back to the world of dreams. It increases the sense of isolation about him, perhaps also explaining why he is such an enigma, & why we are always drawn back to him & his story. Just a thought. |
07-30-2004, 06:43 AM | #24 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
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And I will continue to do so ... Quote:
Hold up! Have I just reached a conclusion. Goodness gracious, put t'kettle on mother!
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07-31-2004, 02:16 AM | #25 | ||
Brightness of a Blade
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Here I pop in right in the middle of your discussion of trees, having absolutely nothing to say on the matter.
I want to take you back to one of my favourite bits in the book: the beginning of the quest. And that is when, Frodo, brutally awakened from a precognitive dream of the Sea, by an unecessarily noisy Merry- is being told the memorable phrase (well, at least to me): "It is time to get up. It is half past four and very foggy." Imagine the sleepy hobbit, uprooted from his warm comfortable bed, the likes of which he doesn't hope to encounter in the future, preparing himself to face unknown dangers and sufferings. The first of which: stepping out on a foggy, chilly autumn morning at 5:a.m. *shudder* Or maybe I'm making too much out of it. But the fact remains, Merry's matter-of-fact words are a well known joke among me and my friends, when we want to point out the many disadvantages of a situation. (I am still unclear as to why they chose such an early hour to start. ) Second point I want to make is about Tom Bombadil. I for one really like him. He is a very cheerful character, always seeming to make fun of himself and the others, (including the Ring, but I'm saving this for later). Now, his appearance in the story is really mysterious. It would have been very easy for Tolkien to introduce him as if he just happened to be passing by, singing, and so he stumbled upon the hobbits. But instead, it's Frodo who finds him, after getting the unexplainable urge to run through the dangerous forest, crying for help. What made him do that? What do you suppose? Not reason, surely. Because he knew hobbits did not adventure so far inside the forest, and as for other things that did, they could have been just as dangerous as Old Man Willow. Quote:
The fact that Tom Bombadil invites the hobbits to his house, singles him as someone special, as it has already been suggested. It's apparent that he already knows or guesses what the hobbits are setting out to do, but he is not worried, nor does he treat the matter with the seriousness one would expect him to. Now, the water-lillies - that's something to be serious and worried about. He is in his element, and the hobbits already feel safe with him. The feeling of safety is further illustrated by the 'wonderfully evokative', (as Estelyn put it): Quote:
PS: There's a really nice thread that talks about the different sort of 'feel' these beginning chapters have here
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And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass. Last edited by Evisse the Blue; 07-31-2004 at 02:22 AM. |
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07-31-2004, 08:21 AM | #26 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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More about trees...
Saucepan Man, you've got a good point about the possibility of Treebeard and Old Man Willow being in some way related or linked. I had a quick look forward to see what Treebeard says, and he does indeed say that the forests were once linked. What was interesting was that he said just as there are old Ents who have become more 'tree-ish', there are also trees which have become more 'ent-ish'. That may provide some reasoning for why Old Man Willow is driven to attack; his heart has gone "bad right through" as Treebeard puts it. He also hints at the evil side to many trees, including those of the Old Forest, as being a remnant of darker days, perhaps memories of Morgoth. |
07-31-2004, 12:35 PM | #27 |
Alive without breath
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I have found that this chapters always seems to lead to discussions about Old Man Willow being an Ent who has become Tree-ish. Is he not a Huorn (If that’s how you spell it)? But then we get into the whole issue of Sam's cousin seeing an Ent (or maybe Ent-wife) on the northern borders of the shire and making all the connections that perhaps he is "Old Woman Willow" which is absurd, Tolkien would have mentioned this otherwise, don’t you think?
I think that Old Man Willow may be some kind of central point in the forest's proverbial 'Nervous system' If you take my meaning. To me He seemed to fling the anger of the forest upon the Hobbits, It is my belief that this is because He remembers the Bonfire when many trees were killed and so is attempting some kind of revenge. Not just for himself, but also for the whole forest, I have had this belief for some time now but have never really spoken of it as it was too odd and hard to put into words what I actually mean. I think that some how the whole forest must be interconnected, we know that the trees can speak to one another with their own tongs, but is there some kind of supernatural way that they all feel one another’s pain? As Old man Willow is the only one who went further than sticking a root out to trip them up I suspect he is a major Power in the Tree community. I do not know about you but how Tom says "Is that All?" when Frodo and Sam tell him of what had happened it sort of suggests that it has happened before, maybe with a badger or something. This, granted, may all be a complete pile of twaddle, if so, ignore it and I'll go sit in a corner and chew on some tree roots.
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07-31-2004, 01:11 PM | #28 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Previously posted by Estelyn:
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"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'" |
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07-31-2004, 03:07 PM | #29 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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Of Course this is not the first time Tom has encountered Old Man Willow. In the Adventures of Tom Bombadil we have the following verses:
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So, who, or what, is Tom? He seems at once both an outsider, attacked by the forest spirits, yet able to control them absolutely. |
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07-31-2004, 03:41 PM | #30 |
A Mere Boggart
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Hookbill, what I think (and looking at my post it wasn't really clear) is that Old Man Willow is more of a tree who has grown Entish. He can't move about as an Ent would, but he does have some of the intelligence or cunning of an Ent.
I know what you mean about Old Man Willow being a central point to the air of malice in the Old Forest, as though he is an influence on the other trees. So, here's one person who certainly thinks you've no need to eat tree-roots! Davem, now I'll have to go and read Adventures of Tom Bombadil again! It's just struck me that Goldberry is rather like Ginny Greenteeth, the weed that floats on slow moving rivers and brooks, and which is supposed to be a female water spirit who drags the unwary under (this folk story is a very vivid childhood memory, probably told to me to make sure I stayed away from waterweed). |
08-01-2004, 01:08 AM | #31 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ghlight=powler. There's an interesting book on, among other things, Tolkien's sources, The Uncharted Realms of Tolkien, reviewed here: http://home.insightbb.com/~sauron/UnchartedRealms.htm. Interestingly enough, in the Poem Tom is captured by Goldberry, Willowman, a family of Badgers, & finally, in his bedroom, by the Barrow Wight, & he escapes in exactly the same way from all of them - by commanding them to go backto sleep. Quote:
Finally, jumping back to the last chapter's debate, on the meaning of the name [i]Brandywine[/] - in the other Bombadil poem, Bombadil goes Boating, there is this verse: Quote:
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 08-01-2004 at 01:24 AM. |
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08-01-2004, 08:01 AM | #32 | ||||||
Cryptic Aura
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Posts: 5,996
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Cabbages and kings
Good of you to quote the Bombadil verse from Tales of the Perilous Realm, davem. And answer to Bombadil, it is salutary to recall that Bombadil was a character already conceived before Tolkien began LotR, and was not part of the mythology of the Silm.
We could consider Tolkien's explanation of Tom in Letter # 153: Quote:
(It is, I think, highly significant that on this thread we have had Fordim and Sauce indulge in some silly nonsense posts, yes, indeed it is, Silmiel of Imladris. But of course with a nod towards wit and cleverness.) Clearly, I think, Tolkien wanted a character who was himself wholly 'other'. There are things that order and rationality cannot include. The passage I quoted above concludes with this observation: Quote:
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Having said all this in one post (that's what you get when I don't get around to posting on the thread for its entire week of life--you didn't think someone who constructed her entire RPG persona around Tom and Goldberry would not be here, did you?), I would like to return to davem comment about Goldberry. davem wrote: Quote:
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Oh, and, Evisse the Blue, I think you are right on about Tom's ability to make fun of himself. Maybe if Frodo had a little more sense of humour....
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 08-01-2004 at 08:19 AM. Reason: durn codes |
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08-01-2004, 11:51 AM | #33 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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I have to say, I've always felt there was something very 'primal' about the whole Tom & Goldberry relationship, as if we're witnessing forces of nature personified, rather than simply two odd inhabitants of the forest. Goldberry is the spirit of the river - a very 'feminine' force, beautiful, mysterious, but also deep, dangerous, consuming, like the river which is her 'mother ' winding sinuously through the heart of the forest (Withywindle = 'winding through the withies/willows'), but what is Tom? He's someone who has come into the forest, master, but not an aspect of the wood, as it & its inhabitants don't seem to like him very much! If he doesn't completely 'belong' in the story, does he really 'belong' in the Forest, either? He's both incredibly wise & incredibly (annoyingly?) simple. And in the next chapter he gets worse (or better!) In the earliest draft he tells the hobbits he is ab-origine. He's the first - but the first what? He seems to have simply decided to pop up in the Old Forest, & instantly has the run of the place, whether the inhabitants want him or not - he seems to have done the same with Lord of the Rings. He pops up in the book & dominates three chapters, & then, apart from a couple of mentions by other characters, disappears again. Perhaps that's what some readers find annoying - he's the extravert uncle, who embarrasses his nieces & nephews with his antics, who they usually wish would just be quiet & act his age, but he's also the one they run to when they're in trouble, because he's the one they know will get them out of it, & make everything alright again (& then he'll straightaway do something silly again). Its like he's joie de vivre given physical form, who'll always do just as he pleases, laughing his head off & singing nonsense all the while. You simply can't decide whether you want to slap him or hug him. Half of you just wants him to go away (& let life be SERIOUS!!!!- MY GOD - don't you realise there are BLACK RIDERS out there, & a Ring of Power to be dealt with! Get REAL Man, for once in your life!) & the other half of you never wants him to leave, because while he's around you're safe - however irrational that feeling of safety might be. I suspect he knows full well that he annoys the hell out of some readers, & that's part of the fun for him - my advice to them is pretend (if you can) not to be annoyed by him, because that just makes him worse. 'He only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases'. |
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10-14-2004, 12:05 PM | #34 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Tom Bombadil and the Bucklanders
Hi, this is my first post to the Downs, and I have been thoroughly enjoying this chapter by chapter discussion. I am rereading the series (second time this century, third time in my life) in conjunction with the the Chapter-by-Chapter discussions on this forum, and it is expanding my appreciation and enjoyment of the book immensely.
As I was reading the chapters on Tom and the Old Forest, a question occurred to me: given that Tom was on friendly terms with Farmer Maggot and had regular dealings with the folk of Bree, how is it that the Bucklanders, Merry in particular, knew nothing of this incredibly powerful, charismatic and enigmatic individual living less than a day's journey from their home? These are the sorts of things that I wonder Resuming lurk mode... Aldarion Elf-Friend |
10-14-2004, 12:18 PM | #35 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Welcome to the Downs Aldarion, and to the Chapter by Chapter discussion. Don't lurk! Come on in and participate. When do you expect you might be able to post on the most current chapter (currently we're talking about "The Bridge of Khazad-dum in Book Two).
It's an interesting question that you pose. I guess that the general ignorance of the hobbits toward Tom is another indication of their parochial and inward looking nature. What's intriguing about this in light of our discussion of Tom as a nature-spirit, is that the hobbits are all of them deeply in love with "tilled earth" -- they even live in the ground, and are thus very close to the earth and the natural. But they are unaware of Tom: maybe they are close to the earth in terms of cultivation and domestication. They know about "tilled earth" but are blind to the wild or untamed forces of nature represented by Tom? But then, of course FARMER Maggot knows Tom -- is this why Maggot is such an imposing figure? He is a farmer and a friend of Tom, thus in touch with domesticated nature and wild nature? He has a full view of the natural world. The more I hear and think about Maggot, the more fascinating a figure he becomes. . .
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10-14-2004, 01:37 PM | #36 |
Cryptic Aura
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Hi there Alda and welcome to the discussion side of the Downs. A bit different than chat, eh?
You pose a good question. For myself, I have always assumed that the "Hedge" and the bad blood caused years ago by the fire in the Bonfire Glade was the reason for the hobbits having very little to do with the Old Forest. This might account for their ignorance of Tom. It makes you wonder what he knows of the events of the Bonfire Glade, though, when the hobbits burned down trees and found over territory. (*hears the possibility of an RPG*) It is about the only bit of hobbit history we get which has the possibility of casting them in a less than friendly light. Maggots feed on dead flesh--a very unsentimental name for the farmer. I think I would agree with Fordim that Farmer Maggot is one of those minor characters who really rewards closer examination. Please do join in--posing that is, rather than lurking--on the rest of the Chapter by Chapter discussion threads.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
10-14-2004, 02:34 PM | #37 | |||
Stormdancer of Doom
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I'm only up to post 13 in this thread, but before I forget-- there have been many comparisons between Treebeard and Old Man Willow; but to me, Old Man Willow seems much less like an Ent to me, and much more like a Huorn. His "Devouring" of Merry and Pippin is analogous to the Huorns devouring orcs. The Huorns move, but underground, sort of swimming through it; they don't "walk" like Ents do.
Interesting that Merry and Pippin, the Devoured ones, were the ones to go on to Fangorn. (In contrast to Ted Sandyman, I do believe Sam's friend/cousin/whatever *did* see an Ent, 'walking'....) OK, back to reading.... Davem wrote: Quote:
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 10-14-2004 at 02:48 PM. |
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10-14-2004, 03:27 PM | #38 | ||
Stormdancer of Doom
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From my jottings and scribblings:
Early in the chapter, Frodo sings at the trees, but his will fails; His voice starts out strong, then fades, not because he is finished, but because the trees loom over him. This is a contrast to his Bombadil-summoning in the Barrow; there, his voice starts out weak, and ends up ringing out. 'Something' has changed by then. Quote:
The contrast between Sam and Frodo is interesting; Frodo, dreamy and almost 'drownded', must be pulled out of the Withywindle and the Willow-Roots by Sam (later, Frodo pulls Sam out of the Anduin.) Then as they consider Merry & Piipin's plight, Frodo is cautious and hesitant; Sam is 'fierce'. It is Sam who sets the fire, and threatens to gnaw on the tree. While Sam is stamping out the fire, Frodo is running crying 'help, help' and feeling 'desperate: lost and witless'. This is a major contrast to his later temptation and courage in the Barrow. Goldberry's voice falls silver-- like Nimrodel-- "Her voice as falling silver fell into the shining pool." To me, this is one of the most moving parts of this chapter: Quote:
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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02-21-2008, 02:33 PM | #39 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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One of the most interesting things about this chapter is the fact that for once in Tolkien's writing, trees are used as enemies with a negative image. We have the old story of the attacking trees that were burned (now that would certainly be politically incorrect today, wouldn't it?!), the devious malice of the trees in misleading them, and Old Man Willow, who would have killed the Hobbits if left to his own devices. For someone like Tolkien, who had a great love for trees, this is a departure, is it not?
At first, Merry is the strongest of the Hobbits, encouraging the others, finding the way, and showing little fear. However, Sam is the one who rescues them, the only one who doesn't fall asleep from OMW's singing. I wonder why? I can't help but wonder about the trees' ability to understand human language. It's not just the feeling that becomes oppressing, but when Frodo sings about the failing trees and woods, Merry admonishes him that the trees do not like that. If we assume that the Old Forest trees are a kind of Huorn, and that Elves taught the Ents and trees to speak, I suppose it is possible - though why they should understand Common Speech rather than Entish or Elvish is not entirely clear to me. During this chapter Tolkien is also skilfully building up the suspense that goes with the Barrow-downs, giving hints of its sinister reputation and making sure the readers know that it is an undesirable place to which the Hobbits do not want to go. I love the sentence that tells us (without saying the name) that the Hobbits have come to the Withywindle: Quote:
Tolkien's descriptive narrative is excellent in this chapter, not only showing us what the Old Forest looks like, but also making us feel the emotions that the Hobbits felt in there. This is the Hobbits' first dangerous adventure outside of the Shire (and the danger within the Shire was brought in from outside, in the persons of the Black Riders). It shows that the perils do not begin in far-away foreign countries, but right outside their own borders. One more thing - it's interesting to compare the Fatty of this chapter with the one at the end of the book - not only will his appearance have changed, but his courage will have grown so much that he leads a rebellion against the invasion of the Shire!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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02-22-2008, 02:18 PM | #40 | ||||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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