A question about the elven rings - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morquesse · 05-24-2002, 01:48 PM

My dad came up with an interesting question: when the One Ring was destroyed, and with the three elven rings were powerless, what importance were they? They couldn't do anything, so why were they important?
I don't know the answer myself, so I was hoping someone else would. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Thanks,
~M

Veritas · 05-24-2002, 02:42 PM

Sauron made the rings, but in one of them, the one ring, he put all his power. The other rings were having less power, but still powerful.
Without the one ring the other rings were having power, but less, because Sauron put some of his power in the rings.
The powers that hte one ring 'awakened' in the others rings, the elves used it to be immortal, I don't know how they used the power, an interesting question, but when the one ring was distroyed, the power that it awakened in the other rings would fade out, and the rings would be magical, but could not give power enough to let the elves be immortal in Middle-Earth, that's why they moved to the west, at the end of the third age.

I hope I answered your question, but there will be enough replies further.

Losthuniel · 05-24-2002, 04:35 PM

the elves were immortal NEways. it had nothing to do with the rings. i actually dont have an answer to your question, Morquesse, but some one more knowledgeable than me will no doubt come along eventually.

Elrian · 05-24-2002, 04:47 PM

They were forged without Sauron's assistance, and thus his taint was not directly on them. However, they could be controlled by the One, and their wielders would be revealed to Sauron if he had the One Ring. Unlike the other Rings, the Three gave power to build, understand, and heal, not to control or conquer. When the One Ring was destroyed they became powerless, and the things wrought with them failed.

Naaramare · 05-24-2002, 08:29 PM

Number sets.

The Rings of Power and the Istari wizards occupy the various "nodes" in a fiveXfive quantum mechanical set. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 . . . and their power followed pattern of greatest to smallest. the Nine were the least powerful, then the seven rings, then the five Istari, then the elven Three, then the One. Because the One occupied the primary (and most powerful) position of the numerical set, it controlled the others. When it was destroyed, the set collapsed, leaving the three with no more power than normal, everyday rings.

Elrian · 05-24-2002, 10:17 PM

The Istari have nothing to do with the powers of the rings, and the rings have nothing to do with the power of the Istari, Gandalf did not lose any power after the ring was destroyed. That would only work if there were 5 rings.

Naaramare · 05-24-2002, 10:39 PM

How do you know? He certainly did nothing spectacular after the One Ring was destroyed. Aragorn healed. All Gandalf did was ride about with people--then he went home.

Keeper-of-Vilya · 05-25-2002, 02:46 PM

The elven rings gave those who bore them powers to do good and great things. Galadriel's ring allowed her and Celeborn to make Lorien the powerful place it was. Elrond's ring gave him power as a great healer and ruler of Rivendell...

Once the One Ring was destoryed the elven rings lost their powers and thus the elves lost their powers. All they had made with the rings was lost and faded, and so ultimately the race of elves faded as well.

At least that is how I have come to understand it... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Burzdol · 03-09-2003, 06:51 PM

Not really. Elves could keep up their great power. It was that they couldn't do it with Elrond and Galadriel. They both faded. But, others could forge more Rings, thus elves could regain their glourios power. Many may say that it is not possible. Though, if they made them once, they can make them again. Now they would be more powerful, and carful at the same time.

Still, another Dark Lord could do it again. Much more powerful though. What do you think, if this happened at all, would happen?

~Burzdol~

Tinuviel87 · 03-09-2003, 07:00 PM

When the one ring was destroyed all of the other rings lost their power- so, all of the things that were created with the elven rings were also destroyed the elves themselves did not become less powerful they just lost the power the rings had given them and thus Lorien and anything else created by the rings would fade. I think that if Tolkien had lived long enough to keep writing stories about M.E. i doubt another dark lord with another 20 rings would have popped up especially since the almost all the elves passed into the undying lands at the end of the third age anyway
~Seka

Meoshi · 03-09-2003, 07:01 PM

The elves faded and left ME. As a result, more Elvensmiths would be impossible. Of course, some Reunited Kingdom human could stumble upon Saruman's research... [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Adanadhel · 03-09-2003, 07:16 PM

The seven dwarven rings were the weakest, not the nine.

Burzdol · 03-09-2003, 07:45 PM

Yes, so was everything of the dwarves destroyed that the Rings made too?

~Burzdol~

Adanadhel · 03-09-2003, 07:54 PM

The dwarves didn't make anything. They used their rings for monetary gain.

Tar-Palantir · 03-09-2003, 08:04 PM

Celebrimbor the smithy of the Three died and there are none now who could ever remake those rings. And why? To maintain an island amidst the growing population of men? For that was the original purpose - "to ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world." But the remaining elves were wise and knew when it was time to sail away, heartbreaking though it might be.

The rings of the dwarves and the rings of the men were equal (I have not yet read otherwise), there was made no distinction mentioned between the 16 during the forging or the taking. Sauron, after the taking, dolled out more to the men because they were more corruptible: "for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will." The dwarves were, as noted, more resistant to the will of Sauron and the taint he bestowed on the 16 - no ring contained more 'power' or less 'power' - Of the resistance of the Dwarves "they proved tough and hard to tame...nor can they (their hearts) be turned to shadows."

03-10-2003, 08:45 AM

In reply to an earlier post. There would NEVER be another dark lord. The whole point of the destruction of the one ring, was that it provided closure on the legacy of Melkor and his evil. They could never return, (until the great end). Evil may still exist in the hearts of men, but never manifested in the shape of a dark lord such as Sauron. For Sauron was in a way just an extension of the will of Morgoth.

03-10-2003, 10:27 AM

I’m going to take a stab at this. I am fairly new to the Tolkien Culture, so feel free to correct me if I’ve taken too many liberties.

All references used are from the Silm

Review of Rings

Of Men - I'm assuming we all know what happened to the nine...

Of the Dwarves - From the Silm...The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. The used their rings only for getting wealth; but wrath and an overmastering... (Sauron did recover 3, but 4 were consumed by fire of dragons).

The Elven Rings of Power
They are not really immortal in ME; they eventually "fade." They must return to Valinor to stay to live forever. Unlike the other Rings the Three gave power to build, understand and heal, not to control and conquer... The Elven rings were made so the elves could stay in ME longer. The elves did want to stay in ME and Sauron assisted them in this by guiding them in making the rings. They were forged without Sauron's assistance, and thus his taint was not directly on them. However, Sauron was not as altruistic as some of the elves thought. His real plan was to control the first-born.

From the SIlm...and all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world (therefore almost stopping time) Sauron knew that to rule over the elves he needed to make the One Ring. But there was a bit of a “trade-off.” Sauron would put the essence of himself to make a powerful ring in order to have to have "surpasing potency..." over the elven rings. When he wore the One Ring the work and wearers of the others would be revealed and governed by him. The elves however were aware of him as soon as he put it on. They took off their rings and hid them with the Wise.

As long as the One Ring was lost and Sauron could not possibly get it, then they could stay and use their rings...only with caution... Perhaps that is way the elves tended to stay in isolated geographical areas.

But the One Ring was discovered and the news of Sauron taking form again puts the elves back into their predicament of old… and the realization that they have been living on “borrowed time.”

The One Ring has the very essence of Sauron, which meant that
(1) he could take form again if his “essence” was returned to him
(2) then have the ability to could control works and wearers of the rings,
(3) If the One Ring was destroyed the Three Rings would become powerless (or so it was thought…) and the things made by them would be fade...or fail (Rivendell, Lothlorien).
(4) no matter what the elves were doomed to leave ME and they (and their works) would fade.

LovesBeren (Sarah)null

05-24-2002, 01:48 PM	#1
Morquesse Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Past the fields we know.... Posts: 202	A question about the elven rings My dad came up with an interesting question: when the One Ring was destroyed, and with the three elven rings were powerless, what importance were they? They couldn't do anything, so why were they important? I don't know the answer myself, so I was hoping someone else would. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Thanks, ~M __________________ I'm not ashamed to let you know I want this light in me to show. I'm not ashamed to speak the name of Jesus Christ.~Newsboys

05-24-2002, 02:42 PM	#2
Veritas Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 131	Sauron made the rings, but in one of them, the one ring, he put all his power. The other rings were having less power, but still powerful. Without the one ring the other rings were having power, but less, because Sauron put some of his power in the rings. The powers that hte one ring 'awakened' in the others rings, the elves used it to be immortal, I don't know how they used the power, an interesting question, but when the one ring was distroyed, the power that it awakened in the other rings would fade out, and the rings would be magical, but could not give power enough to let the elves be immortal in Middle-Earth, that's why they moved to the west, at the end of the third age. I hope I answered your question, but there will be enough replies further. __________________ With the birds I'll share this lonely view. ~Red Hot Chili Peppers, Scar Tisue~ Laurëfin

05-24-2002, 04:35 PM	#3
Losthuniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Helcaraxë- aka Canada Posts: 261	the elves were immortal NEways. it had nothing to do with the rings. i actually dont have an answer to your question, Morquesse, but some one more knowledgeable than me will no doubt come along eventually. __________________ ~* Losthuniel "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" Puck, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream Abhorsen's House -- Lirael/Sabriel fanboard

05-24-2002, 04:47 PM	#4
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	They were forged without Sauron's assistance, and thus his taint was not directly on them. However, they could be controlled by the One, and their wielders would be revealed to Sauron if he had the One Ring. Unlike the other Rings, the Three gave power to build, understand, and heal, not to control or conquer. When the One Ring was destroyed they became powerless, and the things wrought with them failed. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

05-24-2002, 08:29 PM	#5
Naaramare Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Fort St John Posts: 196	Number sets. The Rings of Power and the Istari wizards occupy the various "nodes" in a fiveXfive quantum mechanical set. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 . . . and their power followed pattern of greatest to smallest. the Nine were the least powerful, then the seven rings, then the five Istari, then the elven Three, then the One. Because the One occupied the primary (and most powerful) position of the numerical set, it controlled the others. When it was destroyed, the set collapsed, leaving the three with no more power than normal, everyday rings. __________________ "I once spent two weeks in a tree trying to talk to a bird." --Puck, Brother Mine si man i yulma nin equantuva? [my blog]

05-24-2002, 10:17 PM	#6
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	The Istari have nothing to do with the powers of the rings, and the rings have nothing to do with the power of the Istari, Gandalf did not lose any power after the ring was destroyed. That would only work if there were 5 rings. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

05-24-2002, 10:39 PM	#7
Naaramare Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Fort St John Posts: 196	How do you know? He certainly did nothing spectacular after the One Ring was destroyed. Aragorn healed. All Gandalf did was ride about with people--then he went home. __________________ "I once spent two weeks in a tree trying to talk to a bird." --Puck, Brother Mine si man i yulma nin equantuva? [my blog]

05-25-2002, 02:46 PM	#8
Keeper-of-Vilya Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 19	The elven rings gave those who bore them powers to do good and great things. Galadriel's ring allowed her and Celeborn to make Lorien the powerful place it was. Elrond's ring gave him power as a great healer and ruler of Rivendell... Once the One Ring was destoryed the elven rings lost their powers and thus the elves lost their powers. All they had made with the rings was lost and faded, and so ultimately the race of elves faded as well. At least that is how I have come to understand it... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Few can see where their road leads them till they come to its end.

03-09-2003, 06:51 PM	#9
Burzdol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Fair City of Rivendell Posts: 274	Not really. Elves could keep up their great power. It was that they couldn't do it with Elrond and Galadriel. They both faded. But, others could forge more Rings, thus elves could regain their glourios power. Many may say that it is not possible. Though, if they made them once, they can make them again. Now they would be more powerful, and carful at the same time. Still, another Dark Lord could do it again. Much more powerful though. What do you think, if this happened at all, would happen? ~Burzdol~ __________________ "Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"

03-09-2003, 07:00 PM	#10
Tinuviel87 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Heelllloooo Monkey...... Posts: 65	When the one ring was destroyed all of the other rings lost their power- so, all of the things that were created with the elven rings were also destroyed the elves themselves did not become less powerful they just lost the power the rings had given them and thus Lorien and anything else created by the rings would fade. I think that if Tolkien had lived long enough to keep writing stories about M.E. i doubt another dark lord with another 20 rings would have popped up especially since the almost all the elves passed into the undying lands at the end of the third age anyway ~Seka __________________ Don't Rate Me!(Reverse Psychology?) "And the song of Luthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed..."

03-09-2003, 07:01 PM	#11
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	The elves faded and left ME. As a result, more Elvensmiths would be impossible. Of course, some Reunited Kingdom human could stumble upon Saruman's research... [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

03-09-2003, 07:16 PM	#12
Adanadhel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New England Posts: 35	The seven dwarven rings were the weakest, not the nine. __________________ I don't feel safe in Middle Earth no more... I don't want to die in the ruling ring war... I want to sail away to a distant shore... and make like an ELF man

03-09-2003, 07:45 PM	#13
Burzdol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Fair City of Rivendell Posts: 274	Yes, so was everything of the dwarves destroyed that the Rings made too? ~Burzdol~ __________________ "Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"

03-09-2003, 07:54 PM	#14
Adanadhel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New England Posts: 35	The dwarves didn't make anything. They used their rings for monetary gain. __________________ I don't feel safe in Middle Earth no more... I don't want to die in the ruling ring war... I want to sail away to a distant shore... and make like an ELF man

03-09-2003, 08:04 PM	#15
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	Celebrimbor the smithy of the Three died and there are none now who could ever remake those rings. And why? To maintain an island amidst the growing population of men? For that was the original purpose - "to ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world." But the remaining elves were wise and knew when it was time to sail away, heartbreaking though it might be. The rings of the dwarves and the rings of the men were equal (I have not yet read otherwise), there was made no distinction mentioned between the 16 during the forging or the taking. Sauron, after the taking, dolled out more to the men because they were more corruptible: "for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will." The dwarves were, as noted, more resistant to the will of Sauron and the taint he bestowed on the 16 - no ring contained more 'power' or less 'power' - Of the resistance of the Dwarves "they proved tough and hard to tame...nor can they (their hearts) be turned to shadows." __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

03-10-2003, 08:45 AM	#16
King Fingolfin Guest Posts: n/a	In reply to an earlier post. There would NEVER be another dark lord. The whole point of the destruction of the one ring, was that it provided closure on the legacy of Melkor and his evil. They could never return, (until the great end). Evil may still exist in the hearts of men, but never manifested in the shape of a dark lord such as Sauron. For Sauron was in a way just an extension of the will of Morgoth.

03-10-2003, 10:27 AM	#17
LovesBeren Guest Posts: n/a	I’m going to take a stab at this. I am fairly new to the Tolkien Culture, so feel free to correct me if I’ve taken too many liberties. All references used are from the Silm Review of Rings Of Men - I'm assuming we all know what happened to the nine... Of the Dwarves - From the Silm...The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. The used their rings only for getting wealth; but wrath and an overmastering... (Sauron did recover 3, but 4 were consumed by fire of dragons). The Elven Rings of Power They are not really immortal in ME; they eventually "fade." They must return to Valinor to stay to live forever. Unlike the other Rings the Three gave power to build, understand and heal, not to control and conquer... The Elven rings were made so the elves could stay in ME longer. The elves did want to stay in ME and Sauron assisted them in this by guiding them in making the rings. They were forged without Sauron's assistance, and thus his taint was not directly on them. However, Sauron was not as altruistic as some of the elves thought. His real plan was to control the first-born. From the SIlm...and all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world (therefore almost stopping time) Sauron knew that to rule over the elves he needed to make the One Ring. But there was a bit of a “trade-off.” Sauron would put the essence of himself to make a powerful ring in order to have to have "surpasing potency..." over the elven rings. When he wore the One Ring the work and wearers of the others would be revealed and governed by him. The elves however were aware of him as soon as he put it on. They took off their rings and hid them with the Wise. As long as the One Ring was lost and Sauron could not possibly get it, then they could stay and use their rings...only with caution... Perhaps that is way the elves tended to stay in isolated geographical areas. But the One Ring was discovered and the news of Sauron taking form again puts the elves back into their predicament of old… and the realization that they have been living on “borrowed time.” The One Ring has the very essence of Sauron, which meant that (1) he could take form again if his “essence” was returned to him (2) then have the ability to could control works and wearers of the rings, (3) If the One Ring was destroyed the Three Rings would become powerless (or so it was thought…) and the things made by them would be fade...or fail (Rivendell, Lothlorien). (4) no matter what the elves were doomed to leave ME and they (and their works) would fade. LovesBeren (Sarah)null