Gandalf’s speech to the Balrog - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thingol · 01-05-2002, 04:31 PM

Hello, this is my first post and I'd just like to say hi and that this is a fantastic site.

When Gandalf is facing the Barlog he says to him:

"You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."

My question is what exactly is the flame of Anor? Also I have heard conflicting accounts of what the Secret Fire is. I've heard some say he is referring to his ring Narya, but personally I don't think that is right, and I've also heard that he is referring to the fire that Illuvitar used to create EA and set in the center of Arda. I tend to believe this one myself. Any insights would be appreciated.

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

Airetelluma · 01-05-2002, 05:07 PM

I always thought that the reference of the Secret Fire was to Narya, myself. Very few people know that Gandalf has the ring. Cirdan, Saruman, possibly Elrond or Galadriel (haven't read much on the history of Middle-Earth, so I'm not sure who knows he has it). It's a secret to most people, and it's the fire ring. Secret, fire. Secret, fire. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Oh, and welcome! ^_^

Luineglin · 01-05-2002, 06:23 PM

well the secret flame or the flame of aranor cant remember which but one of them was something Eru made and Morgoroth Looked for along time ago in the Void before the song.
(this is totally wrong of course but i havent had my daily 2 gallons of coffe so im not making much since.)

Lindolirian · 01-05-2002, 07:29 PM

I believe the Secrect Fire is Narya because it is not common knowledge that Gandalf is its keeper and it is the Ring of Fire. As for the Flame of Anor, Anor is Elvish for sun and in the Silmarillion it tells that the sun was a fruit of one of the Trees of Valinor, Laurelin, I think, and the Sun was guided by one of the Maiar. If Gandalf says he is they servant of the Flame of Anor, maybe back in da day when he was Olorin in Valinor, he worked with, or for this Maia..... That is my theory anyways...
Flame of Udun (what he called the Balrog) signifies that the balrog is an evil fire spirit (Udun is Elvish for hell) i think

Luineglin · 01-05-2002, 07:43 PM

thanks for i knew nothing of the subject and was trying to sound smart like i do quite often im afraid.

Thingol · 01-05-2002, 10:01 PM

There are 2 reasons why I do not believe that the secret fire is the ring Narya; which is what Illuvitar hid from Melkor, Luineglin was correct. The first is some textual evidence from the Silmarilion.

"He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar."

Then later in the text:
"Therefore Iluvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Ea."
(Silmarillion)

The Imperishable Flame and the Secret Fire seem to be the same thing; the power of Iluvatar to impart actual Being to his thought. It seems fitting that this would be something that Gandalf (as a Maia sent from the West by the Valar) would "serve" and by contrast it does not seem likely that Gandalf would serve his ring Narya. However, I'm still unclear on what the flame of Arnor is. Gandalf says he is a wielder of the flame of Arnor, and I do not think he is a wielder of the sun =).

Elrian · 01-06-2002, 01:54 AM

Flame of Anor: The power wielded by Gandalf, possibly an allusion to the white light of the Sun as a symbol of the secret fire.

It wasn't from the ring.

Voronwe · 01-06-2002, 05:57 AM

I think it very unlikely that Gandalf was refering to his ring when he used the word 'Secret Fire'. As has already been pointed out, Ganalf would not have been a servant of his own ring.

The Secret Fire (also called the Imperishable Flame) is (according to HoME I think) the 'creative activity' of Eru Iluvatar. It seems to be the part of Eru that gives reality to what he creates - thus Melkor's desire to find it in the void, since he wanted to create things of his own. So Gandalf statement that he is a servant of this fire would mean that he is a servant of Eru.

The Flame of Anor could possibly refer to Gandalf's Ring, but I think not. Gandalf kept his ring so secret that I don't think he would ever have refered to it even like this.

-Voronwe

Elrian · 01-06-2002, 06:46 AM

The Flame of Anor does not refer to the ring, The ring was made by elves and would not have the strength to fend off a Balrog. It could be part of the Flame Imperishable, The Flame of Anor would be the source of power that the Maia and even the Vala have from Iluvatar.

Luineglin · 01-06-2002, 12:11 PM

thanks glad i was right in some way.

Thingol · 01-06-2002, 09:18 PM

Thanks for clearing it up.

Elendur · 01-07-2002, 01:13 AM

The only thing I dont understand is what does "The dark fire will not avail you...". What does that mean?

obloquy · 01-07-2002, 02:01 AM

Quote:

The Flame of Anor does not refer to the ring, The ring was made by elves and would not have the strength to fend off a Balrog.

I don't really understand this. How is it that you deduce that the Flame of Anor is not a reference to Narya? The Secret Fire is likely the Flame Imperishable, and Gandalf is a servant of it. But Gandalf says he 'wields' the Flame of Anor. It can only refer to his staff, Narya, or Glamdring.

As for the meaning of "Anor", it's a bit difficult. The Quenya name for the Sun is actually "Anar". It is conceivable that Anor is the Sindarin form of Anar, similar to the Sindarin "Feanor" for Quenya "Feanaro". In this example, "nar" means "fire". Notice "NAR-ya". Confusingly, "nor" is also a Quenya element that means "land" (I believe), such as in Arnor and Valinor.

Without more information, I'd say it's pretty tough to judge what the Flame of Anor actually is. Glamdring was Turgon's sword, and I can see no connection there. Narya seems the most plausible explanation, but I doubt Gandalf would have disclosed that information to the Balrog.

Voronwe · 01-07-2002, 04:17 AM

I always thought Anor refered to Sun simply because of the translation of Minas Anor - 'Tower of the Sun'.

-Voronwe

Fenrir · 01-07-2002, 02:29 PM

Thingol, what's a "barlog"?

Thingol · 01-07-2002, 02:34 PM

Barlogs are fire spirits that served the Valar Melkor, who was Sauron's master in the first age of Middle Earth. In the battle that ended the First Age most of the Barlogs were destroyed, but a few escaped (including the one from the Lord of the Rings) and hid themselves in the deep places of the earth.

Dwarin Thunderhammer · 01-07-2002, 05:22 PM

I belive you are talking about Balrogs. Barlogs are large pieces of wood at drinking houses. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Halbarad · 01-07-2002, 08:02 PM

So Gandalf was saying that he was a Maia and therefore had a chance of fighting the Balrog and defeating him? That is what I always thought- that he was saying that he was not a man but a Maia.

Elrian · 01-08-2002, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by obloquy:
<STRONG>

I don't really understand this. How is it that you deduce that the Flame of Anor is not a reference to Narya? The Secret Fire is likely the Flame Imperishable, and Gandalf is a servant of it. But Gandalf says he 'wields' the Flame of Anor. It can only refer to his staff, Narya, or Glamdring.

As for the meaning of "Anor", it's a bit difficult. The Quenya name for the Sun is actually "Anar". It is conceivable that Anor is the Sindarin form of Anar, similar to the Sindarin "Feanor" for Quenya "Feanaro". In this example, "nar" means "fire". Notice "NAR-ya". Confusingly, "nor" is also a Quenya element that means "land" (I believe), such as in Arnor and Valinor.

Without more information, I'd say it's pretty tough to judge what the Flame of Anor actually is. Glamdring was Turgon's sword, and I can see no connection there. Narya seems the most plausible explanation, but I doubt Gandalf would have disclosed that information to the Balrog.</STRONG>

If Flame of Udun is the Flame of the darkness of Melkor, the Flame of Anor would be the Flame of light. The flame is in them not an object. And not from an Elven ring. Celebrimbor was no Feanor and Feanor couldn't defend himself from a Balrog.

Elenhin · 01-10-2002, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elrian:
<STRONG>If Flame of Udun is the Flame of the darkness of Melkor, the Flame of Anor would be the Flame of light. The flame is in them not an object. And not from an Elven ring. Celebrimbor was no Feanor and Feanor couldn't defend himself from a Balrog.</STRONG>

The "Flame of Anor" basically must refer to an object, because Gandalf says he wields it. Note also the connection between Gandalf's magic powers (which are usually related to dire) and Narya, the Ring of Fire.

Fenrir · 01-10-2002, 11:48 AM

Not necessarily, the Flame of Anor could be the object, if you take my meaning.

Rhudladion · 01-10-2002, 12:07 PM

Anger is not an object, yet can it not be used as a weapon and therefore wielded?

As for all the "fire" talk, I am not yet educated enough.

Cirdan the Shipwright · 01-10-2002, 12:27 PM

Anor definitely means sun (eg - Minas Anor, tower of the setting sun). The way I have always read this passage is that Flame of Anor/Secret Fire refers to the Flame Imperishable, but that the power of the flame is channeled through the ring.

Flame of Udun is definitely a reference to Melkor.

- Cirdan

Elrian · 01-10-2002, 10:58 PM

Quote:

The "Flame of Anor" basically must refer to an object, because Gandalf says he wields it. Note also the connection between Gandalf's magic powers (which are usually related to dire) and Narya, the Ring of Fire.

The Flame of Anor did not come from the Elven ring, no Elven ring would have the power to withstand a Balrog. Feanor couldn't withstand a Balrog, how would Celebrimbor be able to empower a ring to? If the Elven ring were the Flame of Anor Gandalf would not have been able to be imprisoned by Saruman, he would have been able to defeat him then and there.

obloquy · 01-11-2002, 01:33 AM

But it must be something that Gandalf wields. Maybe this is a little insight into the mysterious wizard staff. I agree that it can not be Narya. Gandalf would never have openly referred to the secret ring he bore.

By the way, I stand corrected on my linguistic reasoning. I had forgotten about Minas Anor, and the entry for 'nar' in the Silmarillion's Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names. Anor is, in fact, the Sindarin translation of Anar, or The Sun. Many of you already knew that. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Udun is Sindarin for Utumno, Melkor's fortress, so that makes perfect sense.

Elrian · 01-11-2002, 02:08 AM

It could be his own power that he wields. It never said that he came with a talisman out of the west. But you could be right about that.

Eowyn of Ithilien · 01-11-2002, 02:42 AM

you don't have to be able to swing it round your head in order to "weild" something...I agree with Cirdan

01-11-2002, 07:07 AM

Halbarad - Gandalf is more powerful than the Balrogs for it is stated that he is eqaul in power to Sauron, no more or less...

...of the other 4 Istari i am not sure

Cirdan the Shipwright · 01-11-2002, 08:32 AM

Where does it say that?

Incidentally, I totally disagree with Feanor fighting the Balrog. Remember, he was overcome by MANY of them. He was the greatest in spirit of any Noldorian elf, and (with perhaps the exception of Ingwe) the mightiest elf of all time.

Besides, other Balrogs were slain by elves (eg - Glorfindel and Echthelion). I think one-on-one Feanor would have been a match for even Gothmog.

-Cirdan / Maglor68

Elenhin · 01-11-2002, 10:25 AM

Ok, "Flame of Anor" must not refer to an object. But it can.

I never said that Narya was the source of all of Gandalf's fire-powers, or that Narya itself would have been able to defeat the Balrog - but it definitely must have enhanced Gandalf's mastery of fire. What would be the use of a magical Ring of Fire if it didn't enhance the powers of its wielder?

As you say, Elrian, there is a contrast between the "good" flame of Gandalf and the "evil" fire of the Balrog. I didn't mean to say that the "Flame of Anor" necessarily refers only to the ring (school stuff made be a bit hasty), but that Narya was an important part of Gandalf's "Flame of Anor".

"Flame of Anor" definitely wasn't an open reference to the Ring, but that doesn't mean that it cannot contain a hidden reference to it. None of the Fellowship understood it, and I don't think that the Balrog did either - until it faced Gandalf's full powers on the top of Zirak-zigil.

Fenrir · 01-11-2002, 11:22 AM

I'm not sure about this but I don't think Narya adds to the combat abilility of the wearer. Narya, unlike the other elven rings, makes people more willing to listen to the councils of the bearer and helps him inspire the hearts of men to great deeds. Gandalf may have been aided by the power of Narya when he saved Theoden from dotage.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Fenrir ]

Elrian · 01-11-2002, 10:01 PM

Quote:

I think one-on-one Feanor would have been a match for even Gothmog.

Feanor's skill was more in craft than fighting. With the Silmarils he may have defeated Gothmog, without them, very doubtful.

I do think Narya aided Gandalf in his endeavors,like reviving Theoden, but it's power wasn't used or could be used as a defense or against attack.

01-11-2002, 10:06 PM

his ring was also know as the ring of fire.
my question i posted in books 1 is very similar to yours kind of.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 01-11-2002, 10:13 PM

True, the ring wasn't built for fighting with, but it may have still helped Gandalf by lending some of the stored power of the elf-magic that went into it's making. Gandalf was a wise and quite powerful maia, and I am sure that, given this extra power, he would be able to bend it to aid him somewhat in fighting the Balrog.

The 'Flame of Anor' could be just a cause.
Flame of Udun - he dark cause of Morgoth/Sauron.

Flame of Anor - the cause of the sun, the 'light' cause of the West.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 01-11-2002, 10:14 PM

True, the ring wasn't built for fighting with, but it may have still helped Gandalf by lending some of the stored power of the elf-magic that went into it's making. Gandalf was a wise and quite powerful maia, and I am sure that, given this extra power, he would be able to bend it to aid him somewhat in fighting the Balrog.

The 'Flame of Anor' could be just the cause that Gandalf fought for.
Flame of Udun - he dark cause of Morgoth/Sauron.

Flame of Anor - the cause of the sun, the 'light' cause of the West.

Aiwendil · 01-12-2002, 03:59 PM

The Flame of Anor may well be the Secret Fire. In the Ainulindale, Iluvatar says that he has kindled the Ainur with the Flame Imperishable; this is why they are able to show forth their creative powers in adorning his theme. Gandalf could thus be said to wield the Flame Imperishable/Secret Fire. As for why he should refer to this as the Flame of Anor, I'm not sure. Might there be some relation between the Sun (Anor) and the Flame Imperishable (other, of course, than the fact that the entire world was created by the Flame Imperishable)?

Joy · 02-05-2002, 12:34 AM

Quote:

"You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."

I just want to bump this to the top, if I don't I'll never find it tomorrow. I want to write some on the Ring, Eru Illuvitar, and the Secrect Fire.

Birdland · 02-05-2002, 11:39 PM

OK I got out my trusty Tolkien Companion(the Cliff Notes of Middle Earth), looked up "Flame of Anor", which cross referenced me to "Secret Fire".

"Secret Fire - The Flame of Anor, a mystical aspect of the Sun, greatest visible power in Creation. The order of Istari (Wizards)formally swore obedience to the "Secret Fire"" (italics mine)

So if all the Wizards swore by "The Secret Fire", that would indicate that it is not the Ring Narya, wouldn't it?

Can anyone site chapter and verse on this vow of obedience, or is J.E.A. Tyler just way off?

Joy · 02-06-2002, 12:23 AM

[img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] Please forgive me for not posting my thoughts in this subject as of yet. I have been busy with tech support [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img], several people's computers have crashed today. I have not had time to compile my essay. Tomorrow looks better, I pray no more systems crash and I get called away to repair them.

Elendur · 02-06-2002, 01:28 AM

Quote:

"Secret Fire - The Flame of Anor, a mystical aspect of the Sun, greatest visible power in Creation. The order of Istari (Wizards)formally swore obedience to the "Secret Fire"

This confuses me. The Secret Fire is the Flame Imperishable Eru sent to create Ea, the world that is. This quote is saying that the Flame of Anor (The Sun) is the Flame Imperishable? That is wrong.

The Sun was created from a fruit that dropped from Laurelin before it died. And the sun is lead through the sky by the Maia, Arien. So how could it be the Flame Imperishable (Secret Fire)?

We all agree that The Secret Fire is The Flame Imperishable. But when Gandalf says he is a weilder of the flame of Anor, I always thought he meant Narya because it is a ring of fire. But I see that this is probably implausible. Like you have said already, I dont think Gandalf would tell this to the Balrog and the ring was not created for power in the sense that Gandalf could use it to fight.

So I am very confused. When Gandalf says he is a weilder of the power of the sun, I cannot understand this. I guess you could be right, Aiwendil. Maybe the Sun is related somehow to the Flame Imperishable and maybe is a source of power. That just doesn't seem right, though. The great lamps were the original sources of light, and then the two trees. The Sun is only a part of the power of Laurelin and it is said in the Silmarillion "The sun was set as a sign of awakening for men, and of waning for the elves...". So it seems odd to me that the thing that caused the elves to leave Middle Earth would be used as a source of power for a Maia.

But then again the Sun showed great power against Morgoth. He feared the Sun and its brightness and because of it, Melkor hid from the day. And even in Dagor Dagorath Melkor attacks the Sun. So obviously he sees it as his main enemy. I think the effect of the Sun would be the same on Sauron as well.

I think I have asked so many questions that I have gotten an answer without any help. I think, now, that when Gandalf says weilder of the Flame of Anor he means that he has the power of the Sun that even Melkor, the Balrogs master!, was scared of. What do you guys think? Have I solved this mystery? Do you understand what Im talking about? Tell me what you think.

But I still have a question. What does "The dark fire will not avail you" mean?

01-05-2002, 04:31 PM	#1
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	Gandalf’s speech to the Balrog Hello, this is my first post and I'd just like to say hi and that this is a fantastic site. When Gandalf is facing the Barlog he says to him: "You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass." My question is what exactly is the flame of Anor? Also I have heard conflicting accounts of what the Secret Fire is. I've heard some say he is referring to his ring Narya, but personally I don't think that is right, and I've also heard that he is referring to the fire that Illuvitar used to create EA and set in the center of Arda. I tend to believe this one myself. Any insights would be appreciated. [ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

01-05-2002, 05:07 PM	#2
Airetelluma Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Mirkwood :p Posts: 19	I always thought that the reference of the Secret Fire was to Narya, myself. Very few people know that Gandalf has the ring. Cirdan, Saruman, possibly Elrond or Galadriel (haven't read much on the history of Middle-Earth, so I'm not sure who knows he has it). It's a secret to most people, and it's the fire ring. Secret, fire. Secret, fire. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Oh, and welcome! ^_^ __________________ A king he was on carven throne In many-pillared halls of stone With golden roof and silver floor, And runes of power upon the door. The light of sun and star and moon In shining lamps of crystal hewn Undimmed by cloud or shade of night There shone forever fair and bright.

01-05-2002, 06:23 PM	#3
Luineglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a terrible paradise Posts: 93	well the secret flame or the flame of aranor cant remember which but one of them was something Eru made and Morgoroth Looked for along time ago in the Void before the song. (this is totally wrong of course but i havent had my daily 2 gallons of coffe so im not making much since.) __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all that wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. Bilbo Baggins Describing Aragorn Son of Arathorn Heir of Elendil,Elessar-Elfstone of his people

01-05-2002, 07:29 PM	#4
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,117	I believe the Secrect Fire is Narya because it is not common knowledge that Gandalf is its keeper and it is the Ring of Fire. As for the Flame of Anor, Anor is Elvish for sun and in the Silmarillion it tells that the sun was a fruit of one of the Trees of Valinor, Laurelin, I think, and the Sun was guided by one of the Maiar. If Gandalf says he is they servant of the Flame of Anor, maybe back in da day when he was Olorin in Valinor, he worked with, or for this Maia..... That is my theory anyways... Flame of Udun (what he called the Balrog) signifies that the balrog is an evil fire spirit (Udun is Elvish for hell) i think __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

01-05-2002, 07:43 PM	#5
Luineglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a terrible paradise Posts: 93	thanks for i knew nothing of the subject and was trying to sound smart like i do quite often im afraid. __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all that wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. Bilbo Baggins Describing Aragorn Son of Arathorn Heir of Elendil,Elessar-Elfstone of his people

01-05-2002, 10:01 PM	#6
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	There are 2 reasons why I do not believe that the secret fire is the ring Narya; which is what Illuvitar hid from Melkor, Luineglin was correct. The first is some textual evidence from the Silmarilion. "He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar." Then later in the text: "Therefore Iluvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Ea." (Silmarillion) The Imperishable Flame and the Secret Fire seem to be the same thing; the power of Iluvatar to impart actual Being to his thought. It seems fitting that this would be something that Gandalf (as a Maia sent from the West by the Valar) would "serve" and by contrast it does not seem likely that Gandalf would serve his ring Narya. However, I'm still unclear on what the flame of Arnor is. Gandalf says he is a wielder of the flame of Arnor, and I do not think he is a wielder of the sun =). __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

01-06-2002, 01:54 AM	#7
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Flame of Anor: The power wielded by Gandalf, possibly an allusion to the white light of the Sun as a symbol of the secret fire. It wasn't from the ring. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

01-06-2002, 05:57 AM	#8
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	I think it very unlikely that Gandalf was refering to his ring when he used the word 'Secret Fire'. As has already been pointed out, Ganalf would not have been a servant of his own ring. The Secret Fire (also called the Imperishable Flame) is (according to HoME I think) the 'creative activity' of Eru Iluvatar. It seems to be the part of Eru that gives reality to what he creates - thus Melkor's desire to find it in the void, since he wanted to create things of his own. So Gandalf statement that he is a servant of this fire would mean that he is a servant of Eru. The Flame of Anor could possibly refer to Gandalf's Ring, but I think not. Gandalf kept his ring so secret that I don't think he would ever have refered to it even like this. -Voronwe __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes

01-06-2002, 06:46 AM	#9
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	The Flame of Anor does not refer to the ring, The ring was made by elves and would not have the strength to fend off a Balrog. It could be part of the Flame Imperishable, The Flame of Anor would be the source of power that the Maia and even the Vala have from Iluvatar. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

01-06-2002, 12:11 PM	#10
Luineglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a terrible paradise Posts: 93	thanks glad i was right in some way. __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all that wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. Bilbo Baggins Describing Aragorn Son of Arathorn Heir of Elendil,Elessar-Elfstone of his people

01-06-2002, 09:18 PM	#11
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	Thanks for clearing it up. __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

01-07-2002, 01:13 AM	#12
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	The only thing I dont understand is what does "The dark fire will not avail you...". What does that mean? __________________ Son of Isildur.

01-07-2002, 04:17 AM	#14
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	I always thought Anor refered to Sun simply because of the translation of Minas Anor - 'Tower of the Sun'. -Voronwe __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes

01-07-2002, 02:29 PM	#15
Fenrir Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nevrast Posts: 103	Thingol, what's a "barlog"? __________________ Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.

01-07-2002, 02:34 PM	#16
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	Barlogs are fire spirits that served the Valar Melkor, who was Sauron's master in the first age of Middle Earth. In the battle that ended the First Age most of the Barlogs were destroyed, but a few escaped (including the one from the Lord of the Rings) and hid themselves in the deep places of the earth. __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

01-07-2002, 05:22 PM	#17
Dwarin Thunderhammer Khazad-Doomed Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: The Green Dragon Posts: 182	I belive you are talking about Balrogs. Barlogs are large pieces of wood at drinking houses. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ “Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd aimênu!” Come visit The Rohan RPG! The only RPG to fanfic on the downs! Without law there can be no freedom. Without justice there can be no law.

01-07-2002, 08:02 PM	#18
Halbarad Wight Join Date: May 2001 Location: Cheongju, Korea Posts: 147	So Gandalf was saying that he was a Maia and therefore had a chance of fighting the Balrog and defeating him? That is what I always thought- that he was saying that he was not a man but a Maia. __________________ -Halbarad to Aragorn, 'The Passing of the Grey Company' Book V, Return of the King."A little people, but of great worth are the Shire-folk. Little do they know of our long labour for the safekeeping of their borders, and yet I grudge it not"

01-10-2002, 11:48 AM	#21
Fenrir Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nevrast Posts: 103	Not necessarily, the Flame of Anor could be the object, if you take my meaning. __________________ Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.

01-10-2002, 12:07 PM	#22
Rhudladion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 63	Anger is not an object, yet can it not be used as a weapon and therefore wielded? As for all the "fire" talk, I am not yet educated enough.

01-10-2002, 12:27 PM	#23
Cirdan the Shipwright Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 52	Anor definitely means sun (eg - Minas Anor, tower of the setting sun). The way I have always read this passage is that Flame of Anor/Secret Fire refers to the Flame Imperishable, but that the power of the flame is channeled through the ring. Flame of Udun is definitely a reference to Melkor. - Cirdan

01-11-2002, 01:33 AM	#25
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	But it must be something that Gandalf wields. Maybe this is a little insight into the mysterious wizard staff. I agree that it can not be Narya. Gandalf would never have openly referred to the secret ring he bore. By the way, I stand corrected on my linguistic reasoning. I had forgotten about Minas Anor, and the entry for 'nar' in the Silmarillion's Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names. Anor is, in fact, the Sindarin translation of Anar, or The Sun. Many of you already knew that. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Udun is Sindarin for Utumno, Melkor's fortress, so that makes perfect sense.

01-11-2002, 02:08 AM	#26
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	It could be his own power that he wields. It never said that he came with a talisman out of the west. But you could be right about that. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

01-11-2002, 02:42 AM	#27
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	you don't have to be able to swing it round your head in order to "weild" something...I agree with Cirdan __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

01-11-2002, 07:07 AM	#28
Larin Guest Posts: n/a	Halbarad - Gandalf is more powerful than the Balrogs for it is stated that he is eqaul in power to Sauron, no more or less... ...of the other 4 Istari i am not sure

01-11-2002, 08:32 AM	#29
Cirdan the Shipwright Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 52	Where does it say that? Incidentally, I totally disagree with Feanor fighting the Balrog. Remember, he was overcome by MANY of them. He was the greatest in spirit of any Noldorian elf, and (with perhaps the exception of Ingwe) the mightiest elf of all time. Besides, other Balrogs were slain by elves (eg - Glorfindel and Echthelion). I think one-on-one Feanor would have been a match for even Gothmog. -Cirdan / Maglor68

01-11-2002, 10:25 AM	#30
Elenhin Wight Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Vantaa, Finland Posts: 205	Ok, "Flame of Anor" must not refer to an object. But it can. I never said that Narya was the source of all of Gandalf's fire-powers, or that Narya itself would have been able to defeat the Balrog - but it definitely must have enhanced Gandalf's mastery of fire. What would be the use of a magical Ring of Fire if it didn't enhance the powers of its wielder? As you say, Elrian, there is a contrast between the "good" flame of Gandalf and the "evil" fire of the Balrog. I didn't mean to say that the "Flame of Anor" necessarily refers only to the ring (school stuff made be a bit hasty), but that Narya was an important part of Gandalf's "Flame of Anor". "Flame of Anor" definitely wasn't an open reference to the Ring, but that doesn't mean that it cannot contain a hidden reference to it. None of the Fellowship understood it, and I don't think that the Balrog did either - until it faced Gandalf's full powers on the top of Zirak-zigil.

01-11-2002, 11:22 AM	#31
Fenrir Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nevrast Posts: 103	I'm not sure about this but I don't think Narya adds to the combat abilility of the wearer. Narya, unlike the other elven rings, makes people more willing to listen to the councils of the bearer and helps him inspire the hearts of men to great deeds. Gandalf may have been aided by the power of Narya when he saved Theoden from dotage. [ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Fenrir ] __________________ Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.

01-11-2002, 10:06 PM	#33
skippy Guest Posts: n/a	his ring was also know as the ring of fire. my question i posted in books 1 is very similar to yours kind of.

01-11-2002, 10:13 PM	#34
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	True, the ring wasn't built for fighting with, but it may have still helped Gandalf by lending some of the stored power of the elf-magic that went into it's making. Gandalf was a wise and quite powerful maia, and I am sure that, given this extra power, he would be able to bend it to aid him somewhat in fighting the Balrog. The 'Flame of Anor' could be just a cause. Flame of Udun - he dark cause of Morgoth/Sauron. Flame of Anor - the cause of the sun, the 'light' cause of the West.

01-11-2002, 10:14 PM	#35
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	True, the ring wasn't built for fighting with, but it may have still helped Gandalf by lending some of the stored power of the elf-magic that went into it's making. Gandalf was a wise and quite powerful maia, and I am sure that, given this extra power, he would be able to bend it to aid him somewhat in fighting the Balrog. The 'Flame of Anor' could be just the cause that Gandalf fought for. Flame of Udun - he dark cause of Morgoth/Sauron. Flame of Anor - the cause of the sun, the 'light' cause of the West.

01-12-2002, 03:59 PM	#36
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	The Flame of Anor may well be the Secret Fire. In the Ainulindale, Iluvatar says that he has kindled the Ainur with the Flame Imperishable; this is why they are able to show forth their creative powers in adorning his theme. Gandalf could thus be said to wield the Flame Imperishable/Secret Fire. As for why he should refer to this as the Flame of Anor, I'm not sure. Might there be some relation between the Sun (Anor) and the Flame Imperishable (other, of course, than the fact that the entire world was created by the Flame Imperishable)?

02-05-2002, 11:39 PM	#38
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	OK I got out my trusty Tolkien Companion(the Cliff Notes of Middle Earth), looked up "Flame of Anor", which cross referenced me to "Secret Fire". "Secret Fire - The Flame of Anor, a mystical aspect of the Sun, greatest visible power in Creation. The order of Istari (Wizards)formally swore obedience to the "Secret Fire"" (italics mine) So if all the Wizards swore by "The Secret Fire", that would indicate that it is not the Ring Narya, wouldn't it? Can anyone site chapter and verse on this vow of obedience, or is J.E.A. Tyler just way off?

02-06-2002, 12:23 AM	#39
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	[img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] Please forgive me for not posting my thoughts in this subject as of yet. I have been busy with tech support [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img], several people's computers have crashed today. I have not had time to compile my essay. Tomorrow looks better, I pray no more systems crash and I get called away to repair them. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?