A Measure of Success

[Rimbaud]

I'm sticking this thread to the top here, but leaving it open, so that any general comments on the RPG fora can be made here. This is open to anybody.

************************************************** **************

Hail Gondorians and guests,

A temporary thread, for brief public discussion of the success of the new RPG layout. Anybody is welcome to post, but it is likely that the thread will be removed when it has run its course. All comments and questions are welcomed.

My reasons for starting this thread: the Forum has now fallen into order, and people appeared to have found games to play in and they seem to be of a high quality - a far higher quality that before, it must be said. Not enough praise can go to those Innkeepers and moderators and helpers involved in the Shire, where the workload appears tremendous and not always swiftly rewarding.

Problems? Perhaps there are still teething difficulties with proposals for Rohan, but thanks to Mithadan and his good friend Nonesuch, and the hardwork of the Mistress Innkeeper, we may well see some fresh stories there. There are a couple that need to be wrapped up in that forum - this is an issue worth discussing, with reference to all the Forums. When a game slows, or peters out somewhat, is it better to transfer ownership, close temporarily or abandon? I dislike the latter two options, and the former may prove difficult.

For Gondor, it seems to have a slow and natural rhythm, two games at a time, progressing steadily. We have at least three games waiting to be started, follow-ons from the Lonely Star and the Entish Bow, and the full RPG emanating from the Saving of the Star mini-RP.

All these things seem good. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Are there any other problems? Issues? Complaints? Now is the time. It seems to me that the new format is a success. All things just need a little time.

[Helkahothion]

Hey all,

Since I don't know what the older version looked like, I can't tell you improvements. I just know that the section is great. What adjustments have been made anyway?

Greetings,

Anuion
________
Familia astina

[Mithadan]

It used to be just one "Freestyle RPG Forum" where anyone could open a thread. There was no oversight and there were no Inns or Innkeepers. The result was chaos.

Some members opened multiple game threads, even if there were not enough players to run the game with. Some RPers overextended themselves by being involved in too many games at once. Because there were no specific rules and no moderation, some games had little or nothing to do with Tolkien. It was like this for several months.

Less than 5% of the games were ever completed. The rest were either abandoned or wandered aimlessly. Although there were (and still are) a number of good writers, the quality of many of the games was poor and most could have been run in a chatroom.

It became clear that some changes would be needed. We experimented a bit, then opened a broad discussion about how things should be done. The result is the present format.

[Hirilaelin]

I did not have a chance to see the old format, but it sounded like it was quite hellish. Anyway, I absolutely love the present format, and am having a great time.

Suilad,

~Eruanne

[ElentariGreenleaf]

The layout for RPGing changed only and week or so after I joined the BDs, but thik think it's GREAT! It really helps introduce people to RPG and get the to a good standard gradually. Please keep it how it is!

[Nurumaiel]

I arrived at the Barrow-Downs a short while before the RPG section was 'fixed.' I desperately wanted to join a game, but it was all too confusing for me. Then I happened to stop by and saw The Shire, Rohan, and Gondor. The new layout made it a snap for me come and begin RPing.

Before I go, I'd like to thank all the innkeepers who keep everything going smoothly, and who put so much of their hard work into making the RPG section a good place for players of all levels.

[Auriel Haevasawen]

Although I found the transition rather indimidating I am now very happy with the set up.

I wandered into the 'Freestyle' room because I had never done RP before and it seemed a good place to start but you are right, things weren't very focussed and sometimes just fizzled out. I never got the chance to get my teeth into something until I found 'the Blue Mountains' which survived to live in Rohan and is finally drawing to its conclusion.

I am now happily wandering the Shire as a 'hired hand' playing baddies and the like and looking forward to the development of another Rohan story with my old companions. Thanks for the changes. I thought they would be too prescriptive to be creative within and I was wrong. Perhaps everyone needs a little order in their lives!

[Carrûn]

While I wasn't here when the old format was in place I have been involved in other sites that ran their RPG's in a simliar fashion. Most of those no longer exist or have shifted the way they do things.

I guess I'm saying that everything looks good to me.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Something must be going well. I never used to read the roleplays before the new system was introduced and now I'm a player.

I think that dividing the roleplays into skill levels was an excellent idea. The new system allows everyone to play at their own level, so that novices aren't frightened off and advanced players don't become bored or frustrated. Now everyone comes in at the level that suits them and progresses as far as they like.

Tighter moderation has definitely improved matters, not by improving what was good, but by ensuring that it isn't all buried under tons of dross. It's a shame that there was so much avoidable acrimony at the outset, as the current structure seems more calculated to avoid friction than to create it. Now a good roleplay won't be displaced by some ludicrously implausible bit of Mary-Sue hackery, with silly characters and bizarre narration. Or will they? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Having said that, none of the new changes could have worked if the talent were not present. Anyone who's come up with an interesting story, an engaging character or an entertaining post has done something to raise the standards here. Well done to all those people.

[dragoneyes]

I first started to RPG here before the change and in one game, I certainly noticed the difference in quality. Granted two of the players left as a result, but we were able to find willing players in the green dragon to help move things along. It's going very well!

[Mattius]

Yeah I have to agree with what Auriel on two things. First that the new system of RPGs is very good and allows players to be very concise in what they are writing as well as leaving room for great creative writing. Second Auriel I, like yourself, can't wait to start a new RPG with our old 'Blue Mountain' characters!!

[Susan Delgado]

it sounded like it was quite hellish

Indeed. "Hellish" sums it up perfectly. I got my start in the old place and dealt with it as best I could. This system is light years beyond it.

[theWhiteLady]

Just adding my own two cents...

Though I did look around a few times when the old system was in place, I really wasn't familiar with the set-up. After the switch to the recent format, Bethberry urged me to take a look around and it was through her guidance I found the courage to begin posting. Having the forums separated by skill level has been wonderful, and allowed me to gain more confidence as a writer and player.

Though I have not ventured from the Shire, I just want to thank Pio and Child for working so very hard and doing an amazing job with the RPers there. They have been so very encouraging and friendly and I cannot thank Bethberry enough for leading me here. This is the best RP set up I have ever seen and can boast of some of the best writers with the most commitment. As far as I can tell, there cannot be enough praise for the format and, most importantly, the people who make it work so smoothly!

[doug*platypus]

Thanks for opening this thread, Rimbaud. Your Avatar kicks @ss! Sorry, but that's the only way to describe it. The Clash. Cool.

I greatly enjoy the RPG forum, and in general the range of different forums (fora?) on the Downs is one of the things that keeps me interested.

I am involved in four, soon to be five RPGs at the moment. I can write fairly quickly (although of course the slower posts are usually the best) and I have been logged in quite a lot since joining. But still, it is possible that spreading myself out around so many different RPGs lowers their quality. I wonder if other people are in a similar boat. I often see posts about how people are short on time, and can't help but feel that being involved in more than two at once might be a mistake. Is there any way that more emphasis can be placed on choosing one or two RPGs, and sticking with them? The Kidnapped! RPG in Rohan, for instance, has been idle for quite some time, while its posters all seem distracted by other RPGs.

I haven't played an RPG through to completion yet, and I hope that all the ones I am in are actually finished! I think that the best antidote for a stalled game might be the appropriate Innkeeper PMing those involved. Just to make the Innkeeper's life even busier!!

On the subject of Inns, I agree that the divisions are a great idea. But placing the Inns in a definite geographical location causes some (very minor) problems. For instance, in a foolish attempt at consistency, my Dwarf bard travelled from his home in Erebor, to Rohan, read a notice about an RPG, and travelled all the way back to Dale to participate in it. I would like to see RPGs starting off from the Inns, as was done in this case, but that can become a bit tricky given the fact that they all exist in one particular (sometimes inconvenient) location. I can't think of a solution, but maybe someone that agrees with this sentiment is able to.

Assuming that the Inns do in fact need a physical location, the Shire as the novice forum is IMO kind of self-defeating. Almost without exception, newbie characters are Elves, Half-Elves, warriors or vampires, with piercing eyes, mysterious pasts, and sacks full of enchanted weaponry. Perhaps Lórien or Rivendell might be a better place to start RPGers off in. Dale would probably be my choice for the next level instead of Rohan, mainly because of its racial melting pot. Gondor and Elvenhome both seem very apt.

I hope that I have raised some worthwhile points, especially as this post turned out longer than I had intended. Keep up the good work, mods, and thank you to everyone participating in RPGs for the opportunity to practice writing in such a crazy format!

[Eärendil]

I was happy with the way the Role-playing forums looked like before, I can say that.
Though, I really like the changes to it, now it´s great! Good work!
That´s all I had to say...*smiles warmly*

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: Eärendil ]

[Susan Delgado]

Almost without exception, newbie characters are Elves, Half-Elves, warriors or vampires, with piercing eyes, mysterious pasts, and sacks full of enchanted weaponry.

Not on this site! Not any more, at any rate [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Spreading oneself too thin is a concern, but I don't see that we can really do anything about it. We can hardly tell people how many games they can be in, can we?

Also, personally, I don't see the Inns in any particular location, any more than they are in any particular time. They just are. They exist for their purpose with real need to be tied down. The country name is just a label.

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: Susan Delgado ]

[Amanaduial the archer]

Rimbaud, I love your avatar- and that song!

Ok, prepare to have sharp and pointy objects thrown at me...
I liked the old system of RPGing, in the freestyle room. It was harder to understand, but it was less controlled; this way seems a bit too controlled in a way. Its good for newbies I suppose; I sent a PM welcoming Iarhen to the downs a few days ago, and I suppose Iarhen will find this easier.
The way the games were shared out when the split happened didnt seem entirely fair either- one game I was in was put into the section it wouldnt otherwise have been put in apart from the fact that the moderator and one of the gamers really didnt get on, and this didnt really seem right- I thought it deserved to go in a higher category, and it was downgraded for personal reasons. Also, the top section doesnt really seem to be getting anywhere- there are very few games in it; the seventh star (in which many of the main character are from the Lonely Star, not easy for others to understand.), Castle Maladil and The Revenge of the Entish Bow (invitation only.) Most of the moderators seem to clique together.

The Shire is doing very well though, and has introduced alot of new players to games ina controlled enviroment. Less games die, which is good, because several good games simply died in the Freestyle room and were lost in the, well, yes, the chaos, such as The New Mirkwood RPG and the Shadowherd. But the Shadowherd was an 'indie' RPG, as one player described it- it wasnt entirely LotR related, but neither was the Crimson Sword, and the Crimson Sword was a brilliant RPG (The game was anyway, and the discussion was fun until the last page or so.)
There are less gatecrashers this way though, practically none- if there have been any, I havent seen them. The moderators can deal with this swiftly and easily, which is great, as it annoys me when random people post entirely stupid and Off topic posts on the actual game thread. But the moderators are in danger of becoming this big, omnipotent power who is unconnected.

Just some thoughts.
Aman

Oh, and Mithadan, Bethberry and a few others; the ideas are mine and not biased by any less agreeable persons who have left the downs one way or another, dont worry. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Rimbaud]

Also, the top section doesnt really seem to be getting anywhere- there are very few games in it; the seventh star (in which many of the main character are from the Lonely Star, not easy for others to understand.), Castle Maladil and The Revenge of the Entish Bow (invitation only.) Most of the moderators seem to clique together.

Thanks for posting. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I suppose I should answer that part of your post, at least. You raise other points that I'll come to in a later post, or perhaps one of the other mods will answer you.

This section was always going to be the 'slowest'. The games are, almost deliberately, much lower key in terms of pacing. This was always going to be an arena for the senior members and strong writers to play a different sort of game. It is not for moderators only, or even close, but there are few games (relatively) and therefore fewer opportunities. Yet those same senior writers mostly particpate also in Rohan and The Shire, and it is in these places where the majority of games take place, as intended. There there is a mingling of minds and experiences.

The senior members mostly have jobs/children/multifarious commitments (or all the aforementoned!), and thus it is good that there is a less frenetic environ for them to enjoy RP-ing as those in the Shire and Rohan have expressed they are. (The Inn in Gondor can seem admittedly a little redundant; I feel, perhaps, that this is not an important enough issue to disucuss, since its redundancy stems from a lack of need. I'm open to criticism of that stand-point, however.) I would, that said, on a personal level, like to see people take an interest there, and for there to be a little more lively discussion, and perhaps this thread may encourage strong writers from Rohan and the Shire to post in the Star and PM me about joining potential games, for as I mentioned we already have two or three waiting in the wings.

Things move more slowly in Gondor, 'tis the way of it.

[Rimbaud]

But the moderators are in danger of becoming this big, omnipotent power who is unconnected.

I would question this very strongly. I know how much effort the moderators in the Shire and Rohan put into reading all the games, getting to know as many writers as they can, and offering advice where needed. I do not think you will find a site with Role Play this well moderated, with this level of care, respect and attention, anywhere on the net. No substantive post is deleted or edited silently. All things are done through discussion and mediation, either public or more normally and properly private. That does not sound overly dictactorial to me.

[Hirilaelin]

In response to this:

Almost without exception, newbie characters are Elves, Half-Elves, warriors or vampires, with piercing eyes, mysterious pasts, and sacks full of enchanted weaponry.

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but my character was a hobbit fronm Bree that just moveed to Hobbiton. I personaly have a thing against elves and/or charcters with superabilities and mysterious pasts. I'm weird that way. Not to insult elves or anything.

Suilad,

~Eruanne/Hirilaelin, Mermaiden of the Misted Isle

[Amanaduial the archer]

Ouch. As predicted, sharp and pointy objects.

I do not think you will find a site with Role Play this well moderated, with this level of care, respect and attention, anywhere on the net. No substantive post is deleted or edited silently.

I know, and for these reasons the Downs remains my top forum, despite being a moderator in another one (Oh, I am so gonna get stick for that later. Just so the people of that forum know, that is not meant as an insult.). This RP section still has the highest standard of writing anywhere, which is why I have defended it against several.

And I said "in danger of." I know a few of the mods of games quite well.

[Bêthberry]

Most of the moderators seem to clique together.... But the moderators are in danger of becoming this big, omnipotent power who is unconnected.

This is patently untrue and unfair, Aman.

I started Ride to the Dark Side as a game specifically for the intermediate gamers in Rohan, and it was not invitation only, but audition, and I did't refuse anyone. I was the only moderator on the game, which included regulars from both Rohan and The Shire, and brought in gamers from outside the Downs, although it did bring in two cameos from a mod and an admin for a bit of extra fun and suspense.

I am in two other games in Rohan, My Crow Management and Rohan, plus I run The White Horse, and there's a fair bit of behind the scenes PMing there, as well as work helping people develope their own proposals. (My other two games are in Gondor, Castle Maladil, which my character withdrew from because essentially her role was finished, and Revenge of the Entish Bow.) I spend much time trying to get to know the new gamers. That's alot of writing, with my RL committments.

Castle Maladil in Gondor includes a mix of gamers from all three realms. Revenge of the Entish Bow has brought in people who have not gamed here before, Squatter, Kuruharan, and Diamond.

Pio and Sharon and Gandalf work extensively in The Shire in games there, not just in Gondor. They are so busy there providing what is essentially an education in how to game that they have little time to write for their own games.

Nor have I ever deleted or edited posts silently; if I see weaknesses in writing or gaming, I address them privately through PMs. I go out of the way to be encouraging, polite and respectful and I always try to find something positive to say. Nor do I make decisions arbitrarily, but always on the basis of what is the need of the particular game according to the standards of writing for Rohan.

It's challenging learning how to game co-operatively, but at least here at the Downs the moderators are willing to help explain things and not just delete or ignore. I don't know any other site where that kind of help is available to inexperienced gamers.

Bethberry

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Two words:
It's fantastic!

then again, I wasnt here when the 'old one' was

[Amanaduial the archer]

Thoughts were asked for, I gave you mine. Sorry if it seems a bit unfair, my day hasnt been exactly brilliant. If you really want me to, I will delete that post, but I just gave you my view.

[Hirilaelin]

I like elves, and don't mind playing/associating with them, but they are simply, TOO POPULAR. Aman, don't delete it! It's good to have different opinions, that is what makes the world go round. Also, if some people disagree with those opinions, that is just THEIR opinion. Just my two cents.

Suilad,

Hirilaelin, Dragon Sorceress of Doom

[Rimbaud]

No, please do not, Aman, your views are completely valid and I meant no sarcasm in thanking you for your post. I hope you did not think my or Bethberry's posts to be attacking you, that was not the intent at all. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] This isn't just a thread for praise although I think I can say it's nice to see so much! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Mithadan]

Please don't delete it Aman. You raise a point at least about appearances. The Mods seem to have a lot of power. In fact they do have some power in the rare occaisions that they actually use it. But their primary purpose is to keep things orderly, help people find their level, find or start games and improve their skills. Do they sometimes have to bash some heads? Yes, but not nearly as much as I had to in the old RPG Room.

Is it more restrictive? Yes, undeniably so, but we believe for good reason. As the old Room showed, when people are left to their own devices, many tend to find the lowest level of commitment. The new system challenges gamers to play at their best. It also favors having games run to their completion rather than allowing the same people start many games, none of which finish.

There are different ways of running RPG rooms. There is merit to each of these ways. There are also disadvantages. We tried to strike a compromise between what the Freestyle room was (chaos) and what it became (too heavily controlled), and came up with our system.

See? No sharp objects.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The way the games were shared out when the split happened didnt seem entirely fair either- one game I was in was put into the section it wouldnt otherwise have been put in apart from the fact that the moderator and one of the gamers really didnt get on, and this didnt really seem right- I thought it deserved to go in a higher category, and it was downgraded for personal reasons.

I'd like to start by saying that this is nothing personal, Amanaduial. The above just happens to be an opinion with which I could not disagree more strongly.

The placing of the existing games within the new system was not a judgement on their quality: the new classifications refer only to games started after the revised structure came into effect. I know this because the Moving RPGs thread carries an explanation of this fact, later quoted elsewhere by Mithadan, which I read even though I wasn't playing at the time because I couldn't understand why people were arguing so much. Having read both the aforementioned explanation and one of the ensuing arguments, in which various moderators and at least one other member tried in vain to explain matters, I am still completely mystified.

I know that there have been personality clashes, as is only to be expected in a forum of this size and diversity. I think I know to whom you refer, and I know that particular person to be decent and reasonable, not the sort of person to pursue needless and stupid vendettas against other members. I do not believe that people are kept away from others' jurisdiction here because of malice against them, but in order to avoid unnecessary feuds, which spoil the fun for everyone. Surely it's easier and more pleasant for all concerned if people who are likely to clash are kept separate.

I'm sorry if I'm treading on any toes with this, but as I see it a few forum members have made a lot of fuss about nothing. I find that depressing and not a little frustrating, given that this is something that we're supposed to be doing for fun.

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[Orual]

I know I'm kind of tooting the same horn as a lot of other people, but I've really enjoyed the RPG forums here at the Downs. I'm a new player--I've only been playing for a couple of months--and I would really like to express my gratitude to everybody who helped me get started. I really had no clue when I started, but I got a lot of help and figured it out very quickly. My Green Dragon character, Rie, was quickly accepted and I've had a lot of fun playing there ever since. The other, more formal (I'm not sure that's quite the right word, and I hope everybody knows what I mean) RPGs that I've played have been great fun, and the moderators and game creators have all been wonderful.

Granted, I only started playing after the new layout was set up, so I can't compare. Nor can I compare it to games on other sites, since I've never participated in any. But playing here has allowed me to get to know other writers, practice with my own writing skills, and learn more about Tolkien. I love the way the forums are set up.

Namárië,

~*~Orual~*~

[Helkahothion]

Maybe a little suggestion from my side,

What about a Middle-Earth Mayhem RPG section? That could create funny things. Sample:

The dwarf was standing alone, facing the Orcs that where a lot bigger in number than he was. Maybe he could try his newly aquired weapon on them. He figured that this was the time. The Orcs charged with all they had. Suddenly, the dwarf took out a weapon what appeared to be a gatling gun. He opened fire, leaving nothing but dead Orcs. Happely he stuck it back into his gear.

Ofcaurse we need some rules. Tolkien related, no swearing, no quotes from other movies and no Starwars. Just some funny situations like a bunny killing of three elves with a toothpick or something like that. Keep in tough.

Greetings,

Anuion
________
R69

[Hirilaelin]

Now, THAT would be cool! (Not that I'm saying that the regular RPGs are not cool, I love 'em to pieces!) And... Stay in tough? Huh?

Hirilaelin, Dragon Sorceress of Doom

[piosenniel]

Aman -

But the moderators are in danger of becoming this big, omnipotent power who is unconnected.

Could you expand on this a little, before I respond. And please, any examples either here or by PM would be appreciated.

Thanks! ~~ Pio

[Child of the 7th Age]

Thanks everyone for the helpful comments. There were a couple of folk I wanted to make sure and respond to....

First, Doug Platypus, you raise one point that also concerns me, and which Pio and I have discussed at least briefly. I wonder if some folk (myself included!) do get spread out thin, and take on too many games. I would never want to set down a flat number for how much is too many. Too many games for one individual may be just the right number for another! It depends on how fast a person writes and their real life commitments as well as how much time they're willing to give to it.

I do think that something like this might at least be briefly mentioned on a game's discussion thread, suggesting that folk weigh their real life commitments and consider how many games they're already playing in before signing up for another.

I am not familiar with the Rohan game you mention, but I do know that Shire games also can have problems with slow plot development. I think there may be factors other than busy posters that can lead games to slow down. I noticed, for example, in the Shire, when The Long Winter hit its climactic scenes where the hobbits outwit the wargs, other games on the board slowed down because many were busy getting their licks in! Something like this is just a matter of timing between two or more plots.

Also, sometimes a game slows down under the sheer weight of its plot, with too much time spent on detailed introductory scenes, or perhaps in another part of the storyline. The game founder sometimes has to be ready to give their game a kick to send it forward a bit faster. Otherwise, posters may lose interest, and feel that a game isn't going anywhere. Sometimes other posters or a mod can be helpful in pointing that out to a founder with a respectful pm. Then adjustments can be made.

There definitely have been times I've sent notes to posters, especially if a big scene is coming up. But it's a good point for us to keep in mind.

Your other point:

On the subject of Inns, I agree that the divisions are a great idea. But placing the Inns in a definite geographical location causes some (very minor) problems. For instance, in a foolish attempt at consistency, my Dwarf bard travelled from his home in Erebor, to Rohan, read a notice about an RPG, and travelled all the way back to Dale to participate in it. I would like to see RPGs starting off from the Inns, as was done in this case, but that can become a bit tricky given the fact that they all exist in one particular (sometimes inconvenient) location. I can't think of a solution, but maybe someone that agrees with this sentiment is able to.

I think there may be a misunderstanding here. When we say that games can start off in Inns, we simply mean that planning can take place there. Your character can start from anyplace, and you don't have to explain how they got there or route them through the Inn or on any particular route. Some folk join games and never post in the Inn, which is also fine.

Also I wanted to comment on this:

Assuming that the Inns do in fact need a physical location, the Shire as the novice forum is IMO kind of self-defeating. Almost without exception, newbie characters are Elves, Half-Elves, warriors or vampires, with piercing eyes, mysterious pasts, and sacks full of enchanted weaponry.

Ironically, the opposite has been the case in the Shire. We have a large group of newbie hobbits. But because we've had many games for hobbits, they tend to clear out of the Inn quickly. In fact, until very recently, most of our active games were hobbit oriented. Right now, we have one hobbit game going, another windng down, and another starting next week.

In fact, if we want to look at things through the cold eye of realism, nowhere in Middle-earth would you find the wide assortment of characters that each of our Inns boast....not even Dale, which admittedly is more 'multi-cultural' than many other locations. The only way around this would be to eliminate all geographical references in the names of the Inns. Yet, I would hate to do that. For example, we recently used our "Shire" setting to plan a dinner party for Frodo and Bilbo, and had folk scurrying around the Inn (including the Elves and vampires!) helping us get ready.

Also, one reason that we've had so many Elves and Half-elves in the Inn is that there haven't been Elf oriented RPGs for them to join! We posted one a week ago, and all the Elf slots filled up in 24 hours (a new record for us!). I'd love to put up another good Elf RPG that has real roots in Tolkien (not a Mary Sue!), but the seeds that are adopted and under development tend to be men or hobbits or even dwarves! We are definitely in the market for someone who could adopt an "Elven seed" who has the experience and the ability to lead a Shire game.

Aman -- I want to respond to one or two of your ideas, but have to run to do real life carpool now. Will get back on here later.

Cami, Shire Mod

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Aman,

It's me back again. I promise--no sharp and pointy objects. I'm cooking dinner, so the worst that could happen would be a few randomly tossed vegetables!

First, regarding the old games, I feel that's ancient history. For better or worse, it's behind us. I honestly don't think there was any ill will in the way games were placed, but that people's tempers were already frayed on all sides, and it was easy for things to be misunderstood. But, either way, it can't be changed. So the best thing to do is to go forward from here.

Thanks for the nice words about the Shire. I can honestly say it's been a lot of work and a lot of fun. But I did want to ask you about this:

But the moderators are in danger of becoming this big, omnipotent power who is unconnected.

It's funny, but I don't feel that way. I guess first I would say I feel very "connected" with the people who game in the Shire. Some of them I've come to know as friends. Others I don't really know that well, but I can see how their skills and writing improve and, to be truthful, that's something I think has real value, for the Downs and, more importantly, for the people themselves.

And most days, I myself don't feel very "big". What I do see is a big job that needs doing, and it can't be done by one or two mods or admins. It's essentially a job that every gamer shares, even in a beginning area like the Shire. Without good proposals and good seed ideas and good posts from everyone involved, we're all going to fall flat on our faces! I essentially see what I do as 'facilitating' (what a terrible word!) --making it possible for gamers to do what they do best in writing and coming up with ideas. We try to do this by making sure we have a sound structure and that there's someone available to give help when needed.

Yet, obviously, something is making you feel this way. If you could send a private message with specific examples and concerns to Pio or myself, or whoever else you're having trouble with, it might be very helpful. It's hard to respond constructively when your own concerns are framed in such a general manner.

My advice would be definitely not to erase your first comments, but follow them up in a private message with something more concrete we can look at and perhaps work on together. We may agree or disagree with what you're suggesting, but we won't know until you set your ideas down in more specific terms.

Cami, Shire Mod

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Calenedheliel]

I was intimidated with RPs with the old system and therefore did not join in. The new system gave me the chance to join a game and to brush up on my writing skills, as it has been many years since I've written anything.

I found Pio and Child to be an excellent source of help and knowledge when I needed help for my posts. They made this a very enjoyable experience for me.(Tips her hat to Pio and Child)Thank you very much for all your guidance. I look forward to writing with the both of you again soon.

[Bêthberry]

I'd like to add a couple of comments about the Inns.

Child has already addressed doug*platypus' concern about the geographical setting for the Inns and so I will briefly mention my response: they are not intended to prescribe or proscribe the settings for the games in each realm. Games do not have to start out at the Inns; nor should games be restricted to the time frame of the Inns. I blended Ride to the Dark Side with The White Horse simply because it is set in Rohan, but none of the other Rohan games--Kidnapped, Search for the Book, and My Crow Management--are linked there. And the movement from The Shire to Rohan to Gondor was intended simply to follow the path of the Fellowship.

The White Horse has allowed many gamers to try out different characters, which I think is great. Because it is a 'practice ground' without a plot of its own, it can be hard to follow, though. I am currently setting up two activities which will expand its reach and perhaps give intermediate gamers practice in areas that can be tricky: when and how to incorporate other gamers' characters in their own posts, and how to plan plotlines co-operatively. Rohan is not a place for tutorials, but I think practice in these two areas identifies intermediate gaming here at the Downs.

First, 'behind the scenes' I am helping to set up some short subplots, much like Child and Pio have done at The Green Dragon. This will provide a more focussed opportunity for interacting with other gamers (outside of a game) and maybe some practice in planning strategy as well. I know of both a new gamer and an experienced gamer who found some of the 'SAVEs' in Ride a bit of a hurdle. And there were two very good, very enthusiastic gamers who wanted to add more conflict to the game when its conclusion had already been announced and set up.

Second, I would like to see more opportunity to discuss gaming in The Horse. To this end, I will be creating a 'snowstorm' which blocks characters into the Inn, and thus stimulates more talk about games. I have invited some game owners--Aman, Aylwen, Susan for starters--to come and talk about how they set up their proposal, where they got their ideas, and what advice they can offer other gamers. Nonesuch is welcome to come, too. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The Horse has provided a good opportunity to develop new characters, but so far it has not stimulated discussion of plots and games. I would like to see that start to happen now. I wonder, if we had more discussion of sources like Unfinished Tales, would we have more games in Rohan?

With pio's and Child's permission, I am also currently reading through the games in The Shire to see who is ready to ride on to Rohan.

If anyone has any other ideas about what The Horse can do for the gamers in Rohan, feel free to post them here or contact me in PM.

Bethberry

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[Maikadilwen]

I find that there has come a lot more control and structure into the RPG's with the new system and that was needed.

BUT (and this is where some people I have been talking to may be surprised or even disappointed) I can follow Aman's thoughts perfectly, because I've had some of them myself.

I am certain, no actually I KNOW that it's not meant to be that way, but the Gondor section seems....closed. A restricted area where you will only be let in at the mercy of someone in "the staff", meaning those who can actually start games in Gondor.

It is said, that if you think you have the skill level to play in Gondor, you should stop by "The Seventh Star" Inn. A couple of people told me I should try that (thank you for your trust guys, you know who you are!) and so I did.
You could almost see how everyone turned in their seats and looked in wonder and disbelief at such display of stupidity.
So I decided to just slip away as quietly as I came.
Guess that means I DON'T have the skill level, but what a way to find out...

Like I said before, this is how it SEEMS to be, from the outside. It looks like there is a hierarchy, with very few people in the top and then the rest of us at the bottom.
Maybe the appearance should be different?
If this is the way it looks to "old rats" like myself, then what does it look like to newer members?

I may have stepped on quite a few toes now so I will say this again. I KNOW that is not the way Gondor works (hopefully [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) but that is the way it SEEMS.

If someone still wants to yell at me, please stand in line with all the others and wait for your turn or PM me. Due to a tight schedule I can't guarantee you will receive an answer! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Orual]

Oh, I have one thought to add--are there any ground rules for entering Rohan and Gondor? As Pio and Bethberry know, I was very hesitant and asked permission before starting at any of the Inns. But what are the qualifications for each level of playing? I mean, are you asked, or do you just skip along in and see if you make it, or do you PM the moderators like I did? I think it might be helpful to tell new players exactly what they should do to play in each different level, because I know that I'm still a little confused--I have more than enough on my plate right now, as far as games go, but eventually I'd like to try my hand in Gondor, and it would be nice to know how I go about doing that.

My two cents being added, I remain yours,

~*~Orual~*~

[Child of the 7th Age]

Maikadilwen,

I'm wondering if there may be some misconceptions concerning Gondor. The thirteen names on that list that appear on the official Gondor thread are the folk who can originate or found games at that level. It's not a list of those who can join Gondor games and/or who have the "right" to post either in games or the Inn.

In theory, anyone who has strong writing and gaming skills is allowed to 'try out' for a Gondor game, unless it is one listed 'by invitation only.' Right now, if you were to look at the names of those posting in the two games currently open in Gondor, you would see that at least half of the posters aren't on that list. So there are definitely people playing in Gondor, even now, other than the "tight circle" of those thirteen names.

So why are people, like yourself or perhaps Amon, feeling so "excluded?" I think it is because relatively few new games have been started in Gondor in the past three months. Even if a person wanted to "try out" for a Gondor game, that would be difficult, because the games simply don't exist yet.

Why is this happening? This is only personal opinion, nothing official, because I'm not a moderator there. But as I looked over the list of potential Gondor game founders, it struck me that 6 of the names are people who've volunteered to help out in either the Shire or Rohan--some as mods, but some also just as 'general helpers' or game founders.

I am a good example of that. About ninety percent of my gaming right now takes place in the Shire. The one new RPG that Pio and I recently developed is going up in the Shire (not Gondor), as a special invitational game to try and teach collaborative planning skills to some of the more experienced Shire posters. That game will be a mix of people from the official Gondor list (6) and regular Shire folk (12).

The problem is that if I'm giving so much time in the Shire, it's going to be very hard for me to have enough energy left to develop and lead a game in Gondor. And that's true not just of me, but of half the names on the "official" list of Gondor game founders. If you are outside looking in, as you are, that must be very frustrating, since you can't try out for a game that doesn't exist!

Would I like to lead a game in Gondor that intentionally mixes some of the "older" Gondor posters with some new faces and talents, perhaps having folk "audition" for it? That sounds like a fantastic idea. I have long wanted to do a First Age RPG where people can not only game but widen their understanding of that particular period of Middle-earth history. The problem is that I would need a 26-hour day instead of a 24-hour one, and I haven't figured out how to do that yet!

So perhaps some of your perception of being excluded stems from factors like this, rather than any intentional effort to keep folk out or make them feel uncomfortable. I believe that gradually new games will go up, and some of them will be open to newer posters. But the process is going to take some time and patience.

Again, this is not official. Rimbaud is the one who can really speak for Gondor as its moderator, but that's just my impression, based on my own experience and looking at the other names on the founders' list.

Cami, Shire Mod

[ February 13, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Maikadilwen]

Sharon, I believe I said in my earlier post (if I didn't, please forgive me) that I know it is not the way it is meant to be, but this is the way it SEEMS to be, seen from "the outside".
I am fully aware that the listed names are the people who can OPEN games, but sometimes it seems, that in order to get somewhere, you have to know someone who knows someone....

I may be very wrong and seem really far off, but I just said what I see and have been tempted to think from time to time.

Now, I had a lot to say but due to certain circumstances, I simply can't make an English sentance today...
Frustrating, since I feel that though I try, I'm not able to make myself clear. Oh well, maybe later.

Once again, I'm not pointing my finger at any persons! I'm pointing it at a system.

By the way, I know that both you, Sharon and Pio are doing a tremendous job in The Shire and it is because of your efforts it works.
Both The Shire and Rohan are working (almost) perfectly, if you ask me.

[ February 13, 2003: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]