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02-05-2016, 08:46 PM | #1 |
Spirit of Mist
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The Fellowship - doomed to fail
In a recent thread, "The Doom of the Ring," I made the following comment:
"It is clear that Frodo did not have the will to destroy the Ring himself, particularly after the grueling journey to and into Mordor. By the time he stood at Sammath Naur, he had possessed the Ring for 17 years. Isildur, who possessed it for perhaps a matter of hours, could not be convinced to destroy it. What is remarkable is that Frodo had the will to even travel to Mount Doom with the intent to do away with the Ring. I have often wondered what Gandalf, who feared contact with the Ring himself, intended to do if he came to Mount Doom with Frodo. Surely he at least suspected that Frodo would have to be coerced or "assisted" to destroy the Ring. Gollum's intervention, under the circumstances, was an ideal solution." Thinking about this, I wondered what was the plan? What could Gandalf have had in mind if the Fellowship, or some potion of it, reached Mount Doom? Was there any circumstance under which Frodo might have completed the quest voluntarily and destroyed the Ring? Could he have been coerced or assisted?
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02-05-2016, 10:31 PM | #2 | |
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A few possible ideas...
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On the other hand, given his experience with successfully persuading Bilbo to give up the Ring that perhaps Gandalf could have persuaded Frodo to destroy it...on the assumption that Gandalf intended to accompany Frodo to the end (which I think he did). However, on the whole I suspect the first answer is closer to the truth. Pushing Frodo into the Crack of Doom (as practical a solution as that would be) could not possibly have been contemplated.
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02-06-2016, 12:08 AM | #3 | |
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Faithfulness, as opposed to a need for certainty, seems to be a general distinction in characterisation between Gandalf and Saruman, and the reason the latter failed his mission - trying to force results by his own power, and that power which he could take, rather than accepting the role of a higher power in events. It goes back to Gandalf's remark about Bilbo and Frodo being "meant" to have the Ring, "and not by its maker."
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02-06-2016, 06:45 AM | #4 | ||||
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So, I retain my previous stand on this matter: Quote:
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On a side note: Gandalf seems to forget about Cirdan and his own Ring of Power. Quote:
Last edited by Leaf; 02-06-2016 at 07:08 AM. |
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02-06-2016, 07:33 AM | #5 | |
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02-06-2016, 07:53 AM | #6 |
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Gandalf's "talent" was his ability to inspire, persuade and encourage others to act. As Leaf comments, this ability is enhanced by the Ring that Gandalf bears. Does this impact upon his ability to cajole or persuade Frodo to destroy the Ring?
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02-06-2016, 07:57 AM | #7 |
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I think Narya did help Gandalf to inspire. It was the Ring of Fire, and Círdan told him that with it Gandalf could "rekindle hearts" or something like that (don't have the books handy).
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02-06-2016, 08:18 AM | #8 | |
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He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. I think it's fair to assume that he would expand his verdict to other Ring-bearers and that destroying the Ring would imply casting it aside. His 'talent' went only so far to help convincing Bilbo to leave the Ring behind for Frodo, which is a huge success in that matter in the first place. Last edited by Leaf; 02-06-2016 at 08:41 AM. |
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02-06-2016, 02:13 PM | #9 | |
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I don't agree so much with this.
I think Gandalf believed that Sauron could triumph, but even in those dire circumstances he believed there was a correct way to go about doing things that ultimately involved putting the situation in the hands of Eru regardless of outcome. Quote:
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02-06-2016, 02:27 PM | #10 | |
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As it stands it was destroyed by "accident", and not by choice. |
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02-06-2016, 02:48 PM | #11 |
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Maybe Tolkien dropped the ball on that.
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02-06-2016, 07:01 PM | #12 | |
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Quote:
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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02-06-2016, 10:22 PM | #13 |
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I think that rationally, Gandalf knew that there was very little chance of anyone from the Fellowship even getting to Sammath Naur, forget about destroying the Ring. At the same time, though, he might have had a feeling that at a certain point something would happen which was statistically improbable and unpredictable that would turn things around. Part of it was a faith and trust in Eru, but part of it was just accepting that even without external intervention, you can't control all circumstances but you have to do your best. I think the last part is the most important - regardless of what Gandalf could or could not foresee, he knew he had to try. As another lovely book says, "If you try and lose then it isn't your fault. But if you don't try and we lose, then it's all your fault." Gandalf just went with the best of his options. And it really wouldn't be his, or Frodo's, or anybody's fault if things turned out differently. They all tried their best, in their own way. That was as far and as much as Gandalf would really need to see to make the choice.
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02-06-2016, 11:22 PM | #14 | |
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Narya: besides the question of Narya's strength relative to the Master Ring generally, there is also
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02-09-2016, 04:24 PM | #15 | |
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To make a confession, this thread was not just inspired by my prior post in the Doom of the Ring thread (which is a real expression of my curiosity) but also by something that I stumbled upon while looking for something else. Letters By Tolkien has an abysmally deficient index. If you are looking for a specific subject regarding Frodo, for example, you are limited to looking for references for Frodo; there are no more detailed "key words." In this case, I was looking for a reference that I seemed to recall about Frodo being "chosen" for the Quest. I never found it (actually stopped looking) and instead came upon this regarding Frodo:
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Tolkien refers to Frodo's position at the end, noting that even in Bag End he had been unwilling to harm the Ring, as "an apparently complete trap: a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring's lure to power so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision." Regarding the Fellowship, he says that the quest "was bound to fail as a piece of the world-plan, and was also bound to end in disaster..." So the final scene at Sammath Naur was, to Tolkien, "mechanically, morally, and psychologically credible". I agree with others above that Gandalf had no idea what might happen at the end of the day, should the Fellowship or some fragment of it reach the Cracks of Doom. Surely he knew that Frodo could not destroy the Ring on his own. Surely he knew that Sam would not be able to act against his own Master. Some outside force was needed to accomplish the impossible; the destruction of the Ring. Here, Gollum was that force. If Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas or Gimli, the "heroes" had been there, could any of them have achieved what Gollum, by accident, curse or fate, accomplished? Tolkien's answer appears to be no.
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02-09-2016, 05:13 PM | #16 | |
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But if Elrond and Cirdan were not willing to push Isildur into the Crack of Doom and save everybody a lot of trouble, it can be presumed that none of the Fellowship would have been willing to do the same thing.
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02-11-2016, 08:17 AM | #17 |
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Sympathy for Denethor
When I first read LotR I had, and still have now, some sympathy for Denethor II's anger at Gandalf and his son for allowing Frodo and Sam go off alone into Mordor.
If you look at it, even though it was clear from what was said at the Council that the only way to destroy the Ring was by sending it to and throwing it into the Crack of Doom, there was no clear plan on how to carry this out. Even after the Company left Rivendell, Gandalf was vague about what was to happen after they got over the Misty Mountains. For that reason, I agree with what Mithadan and others said that Gandalf had no idea what might happen at the end of the day, should the Fellowship or some fragment of it reach the Cracks of Doom. Surely he knew that Frodo could not destroy the Ring on his own. Surely he knew that Sam would not be able to act against his own Master. Some outside force was needed to accomplish the impossible; the destruction of the Ring. Here, Gollum was that force. Gandalf was clear that Gollum would have some part to play in dealing with the Ring, which happened. He was able to convince Frodo to let him live, and Frodo to convince Sam and Faramir to do the same. That said, I can still understand Denethor's anger, although the problem is that he himself didn't have an alternative plan other than to keep the ring safe in Minas Tirith, not using it until things were really desperate... |
02-11-2016, 08:33 AM | #18 |
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Those who knew Gandalf, such as most of the Council attendees, had enough trust in him that they were willing to follow his plan, no matter how vague its ultimate ending might seem.
I think a big part of Denethor's issue was his lack of trust in anyone opposed to Sauron, if they weren't subordinate to him, or closely allied, as the Rohirrim. Really, it's amazing that he allowed Boromir to go to Rivendell at all. Makes one wonder if the thought of consulting Saruman about the dreams of Faramir and Boromir had crossed his mind, and, if so, why he didn't just do that.
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02-11-2016, 08:48 AM | #19 | |
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I'm not sure I trust Denethor's anger. Was he truly angry because the Ring had been sent to where it seemed almost certain that Sauron would recover it, or was he really just angry because this object of power which he seemed to secretly desire ("Not used, I say, unless at the uttermost end of need"), even if he did not consciously realise himself that he desired it, had been put beyond his reach? Gandalf outright says he does not trust him:
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02-11-2016, 09:34 AM | #20 |
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A New (wild) Idea
An unlikely possibility, but has anyone ever considered the possibility that Gandalf (had he continued with the Fellowship) might have intended to take the Ring and fling it into the Crack of Doom himself?
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02-11-2016, 09:40 AM | #21 |
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Denethor's mistrust
Inziladun, I was interested in what you had to say here:
I think a big part of Denethor's issue was his lack of trust in anyone opposed to Sauron, if they weren't subordinate to him, or closely allied, as the Rohirrim. Really, it's amazing that he allowed Boromir to go to Rivendell at all. Makes one wonder if the thought of consulting Saruman about the dreams of Faramir and Boromir had crossed his mind, and, if so, why he didn't just do that. The answer is very clear: Saruman was a rebel. When he was given the tenancy of Orthanc, still Gondorian territory, by Ruling Steward Beren, Denethor's ancestor and predecessor, it was on the understanding that he would accept his obligations as a tenant. Saruman later rebelled, effectively declaring his independence of Gondor. Why should Denethor, or any of his predecessors, trust Saruman, let alone let him into any of their confidences? This is even before Gandalf found out, due to his imprisonment, that Saruman was an enemy as well, in league with Sauron. |
02-11-2016, 09:51 AM | #22 | |
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02-11-2016, 09:55 AM | #23 |
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The problem I have
Zigűr, thanks for the quote from Gandalf to Denethor. I liked how the wizard softened his criticism of the Steward by pointing out that he didn't trust himself with the Ring, even though it was freely offered to him by Frodo.
The problem I have is that how could Gandalf expect Frodo not just to get to the Crack of Doom in the first place, but also to have the will left to then throw the Ring in? Even if Denethor can be accused of arrogance and a desire for the Ring, such a question from him (even if badly phrased by calling Frodo a 'witless halfling') is still valid. It's just as well that Gondor isn't a democracy. Can one imagine Gandalf defending his stance at a public meeting? |
02-11-2016, 10:01 AM | #24 |
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When did Saruman stop visiting Minas Tirith?
Thanks for that point. Is it clear whether Saruman's visits stopped in Denethor's time or not?
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02-11-2016, 10:19 AM | #25 |
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The inference seems to be that the last time Saruman had been to Minas Tirith was when he did his search. Having gotten what he wanted, he had no further use for old Denethor.
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02-16-2016, 07:32 AM | #26 |
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Thanks for the reply
Thanks for the reply, Inziladun. You're probably right in your inference. But just because Denethor may have allowed Saruman access to the archives in Minas Tirith doesn't mean that he confided in him. He appears to be a man who kept his own counsel, who listened to people, then made his own decisions.
It was clear from LotR that he knew who the 'Thorongil' was who lived and worked in Gondor and Rohan in his younger days. What I found interesting was that Faramir, after meeting Frodo and Sam, said that he concluded, from what Gandalf had looked at in the archives concerning Isildur, that the latter had taken something from Sauron before his departure to the North, although he didn't think that it was the Ring until Sam put his foot in it. My opinion is that his father Denethor had come to the same conclusion. |
02-16-2016, 08:33 AM | #27 | ||
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Quote:
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02-16-2016, 10:12 AM | #28 | |
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It might be possible, however, that Denethor knew by that point that Saruman's trustworthiness was compromised. Denethor became steward in 2984, and according to Unfinished Tales "it seems fairly plain that he had at once turned to the Stone as soon as he came to power." Saruman started using the Orthanc-stone in approximately 3000. The subsequent seventeen years (before Boromir departed for the North) seem like ample opportunity for Denethor to have encounted Saruman and to have determined that he could no longer be trusted. To support this, I would point out that Saruman had neither Denethor's advantage for using the stones (legitimate, albeit inherited, authority), nor Sauron's (sheer overwhelming power). Thus it seems like Saruman might be less likely to be able to conceal his intentions from Denethor. Note that when Gandalf rather incredulously asked Denethor "Is it naught to you that Théoden has fought a great battle and that Isengard is overthrown, and that I have broken the staff of Saruman?" Denethor replied "It is much to me. But I know already sufficient of these deeds for my own counsel against the menace of the East." This suggests to me that he might have been keeping an eye on Saruman for some time.
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02-17-2016, 12:05 AM | #29 | ||
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You're right though, the whole errand is odd if you think of it from Denethor's point of view. Reluctantly or not, to allow his son, heir, and chief captain to journey into the ruined North, apparently unescorted, with the precise destination unknown, on the basis of a dream? In peace-time it would be strange enough, but immediately after the greatest conceivable enemy has declared war and driven Gondor across the Anduin? Denethor? It almost seems like something Gandalf would do. )
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02-17-2016, 12:47 AM | #30 | |
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"Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith." Saruman claimed Isengard in 2953, while Aragorn (as Thorongil) was in Gondor between 2957 and 2980. The fact that he and Denethor disagreed in counsel concerning wizards suggests that, for whatever reason, even after Saruman had claimed Isengard, Denethor still advocated Saruman as an ally at that time. On the other hand, as it is implied that Denethor may have already determined Thorongil's true identity by this point, it is possible that he did so more to spite Gandalf than out of genuine belief in Saruman's credibility. I suppose it's also possible that Aragorn was saying "Traditionally you've taken counsel from Saruman; trust Gandalf instead" while Denethor was arguing "Forsake the counsel of wizards altogether." It's quite a knotty problem.
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02-17-2016, 10:07 AM | #31 |
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Now that you mention it, that is odd.
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02-17-2016, 12:05 PM | #32 |
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"Isildur's Bane" would have piqued Denethor's interest immensely too, I think. We find from Unfinished Tales that Saruman had searched for and found Isildur's body near the Gladden Fields. Could that fact have been gleaned by Denethor during sessions over the Palantíri, and Saruman's suspicions about the One Ring been communicated?
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02-19-2016, 03:06 PM | #33 | |
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Actually, if Denethor had made the connection between "Isildur's Bane" and "Sauron's Ring", as Inzila and Faramir surmise upthread, it would go a long way to explaining why he'd allow Boromir to take on the errand. But even a more conservative reading of the situation allows for Denethor (who perhaps already had become quite hopeless about the prospects of Minas Tirith) approving a Hail Mary plan which at the very least would carry his favorite son out of harm's way, albeit temporarily.
Going back to Mith's original queries, it occurred to me that HoME might offer some clues. My HoME-fu isn't what it used to be, but flipping around in The Return of the Shadow and Sauron Defeated suggests a couple of possibilities. The first, and perhaps least satisfying, explanation for the plan-that-must-fail is that Tolkien seems to have foreseen very early on that Gollum would be the true mechanism of the destruction of the Ring. Quote:
In the first chapter of Sauron Defeated, Christopher Tolkien sums up a few of his father's different outlines which contemplate the events at Mt. Doom. In each version, Gollum seizes the Ring from Frodo, but various scenarios were considered from there -- he and Frodo wrestle and Gollum falls into the fire; Sam arrives and either pushes Gollum into the fire or tackles him into it in a suicidal blaze of glory; or the seemingly quickly discarded idea that Gollum, in a flash of redemption, would himself dive into the fire with the Ring. Perhaps -- envisioning a scenario where Gandalf goes all the way with Frodo -- G imagined that his love for Frodo might allow him to help the hobbit give up the Ring at the supreme moment, just as he had helped Bilbo give it up earlier. |
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02-19-2016, 04:52 PM | #34 | ||
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Oh the embarassment!
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Anyway, I was really noting the unescorted part of the trip. I find that quite odd. Even on a secret errand, surely somebody should have gone with Boromir just to make sure some minor mishap on the road didn't kill or injure him. Quote:
However, in a way I think (if I may be so bold) that Tolkien would have agreed with my point regarding Gandalf that I made upthread. Ultimately, the issue had to be put in the hands of Eru.
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02-19-2016, 08:32 PM | #35 |
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Yes, I'd agree that clearly in the event the justification for sending Frodo to the Fire was that it was the only way to truly solve the problem of the Ring, and therefore it was the only path worth pursuing, ultimately with the hope (or faith if you prefer) that some unforeseen (although as it happened not exactly unforeseen) sequence of events would lead to its destruction.
I'd add a point which slipped my mind earlier, which is that when the quest to destroy the ring was conceived, the ring hadn't really become the Ring yet. That is to say, Tolkien hadn't really yet seen it as the One Ring to Rule Them All that none could resist. So to an extent the quest to destroy *the* Ring may be an artifact of the quest to destroy *a* ring. Yes, the idea of Boromir wandering around in the wilderness for the better part of four months is a little funny. Maybe he felt he couldn't justify pulling even one man away from the defense of Minas Tirith? |
02-19-2016, 09:08 PM | #36 |
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Well, Boromir told the Council that Faramir had been the one initially wanting to go out looking for Imladris. Boromir had put himself forward as the one who should go, for the very reason that the journey was so uncertain. Maybe Denethor's love for his elder son itself caused him to be unable to forbid him.
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02-20-2016, 03:00 AM | #37 |
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I'm not so sure. Obviously Boromir was a noble, but I think, if Aragorn could, why not Boromir. I do not think Aragorn went on all his journeys with an escort even though he was a King in Exile. Boromir is as much a Dúnadan as Aragorn, and more likely than not, more than a match for any thug on the road he'd come across. Though I am with you about the escort, however, since it seems Aragorn was not bound to any escort (as I see when he's the bodyguard of the Ring-bearer to Rivendell, chased down by Nazgul) I suppose someone of Boromir's stature need not be either.
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02-21-2016, 12:58 PM | #38 |
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Regarding the escort, perhaps Boromir's pride would not allow him to accept one, even if Denethor wanted him to have one. This isn't your usual trip up the mountains; it's a quest with something mystical to it. He may have said that he will go seek Rivendell with the same attitude as people said that they will go seek the Holy Grail. He would also want to prove himself as a hardened warrior not just in battle, to show that he is able to survive and accomplish his mission without an escort.
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02-21-2016, 08:29 PM | #39 | |
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02-22-2016, 12:53 PM | #40 | |||||
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On the whole I am inclined to chalk this up as an oopsie of the same type (although not magnitude) as the dwarves setting off on the Quest of Erebor with no weapons.
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