Daily life in M-E

[Baran]

How do you reckon daily life in Midle Earth was for normal, working people, lets say in Gondor at the beginning of the 4. age? Was it anything like Europe before the industriall revolution? How long did they live (average lifetime for the Vikings was about 25-30 years, mainly due to lack of hygiene and knowledge about curing deceases and wounds)? Did they have to give birth to 5-6 children to be sure one of them grew up? How effective was their agriculture?

If we look 2000 years back in our own history things were very different from now (and if you compare year 0 and year 1000 things were very different too, something actually to the worse).
I like to look at them as just as developed as we are now, just in another way, they didn't follow the same path as us if you understand what I mean (I'm not sure I do myself [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) Maybe they are what we could have been if we had gotten a second start. If we never invendet electricity, steam machines and electronics, but instead used nature, and and adjusted to nature instead of, like we are doing, adjusting nature to us.
They had some machinery (the lutring of hobsyssel) but I think most people looked upon it with the same disgust as the hobbits.

So, how was daily life for the ordinary man and woman in M-E? Was life a struggle to survive every winter, like for many people 500 years ago, or was it more like life is today for us, just without Internett?

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I think it would have been sort of like the Renaissance in Gondor. They came out of this huge war and Elves andd Dwarves were moving in. About Rohan,m I'm not sure what would have changed. As for the Shire, we know what it was like. The end of the Third Age, only better.

[Birdland]

No arts, no letters, no society, and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. - Thomas Hobbes. (1588–1679)

Well, I don't think Tolkien pictured life in Middle Earth being as dire as Mr. Hobbes' 17th Century Europe, but I'm sure there were some parallels.

Tolkien paints an idealized picture of life in Middle Earth, but it is, in fact, a strangely empty world. Except for the enclaves of The Shire, Rivendell, Lothlorian, Rohan, and Gondor, we see little evidence of small towns, freeholds, or settlements. Perhaps this is a result of The Great Plague of 1636 T.A. But 1300 years later, at the time that Bilbo first set out on his quest, you see no evidence of recovery. The land is as barren of human habitation as it was when the plague devastated the population. This should tell you something of what conditions were like for the common folk.

Gondor itself was a great civilization in decline. Though they had the advantages of Elven lore, and the basic nobility of the Numenorian race, I'm sure they had lost many of the skills and arts that would have made life more pleasant for it's citizens. You get the impression that until the return of the King, Gondorians outside the city walls were pretty much left to fend for themselves.

Also Tolkien the author, as many other authors do, glosses over many of the mundane details of survival and daily living in a pre-industrial age. He doesn't much go into the lack of sanitation in large cities, the sub-par medical care, lack of dental hygiene, deoderant, soap, basic nutrition information...well, you get the picture.

Add to all of the above mentioned disadvantages the fact that most of the civilzation in the Third Age were, in a way, under seige by forces of evil (Orcs, Wargs, and the like), and it's likely that, for many of the denizens of Middle Earth, life may well indeed have been "nasty, brutish, and short."

Don't get me wrong, though. It was possible to have a decent standard of living back then. It just took having a tight, homogeneous population that was not subjected to many of the stresses of fighting off outside foes or the brutal whims of their rulers. This describes The Shire to a "T". So in many ways, though it may have been boring and provIncial, the Hobbits probably were doing better that the folks of Gondor and Rohan.

That is at least until the Return of the King. Sadly, after being discovered by the outside world, I'm afraid it was all downhill for the Hobbits.

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hullo Birdland,

Information gleaned through my travels suggests you're on the right track about the average citizen of the Shire having a high standard of living in comparison with the citizens of some of the grander, more renowned locales.

You mention things like hygiene and nutrition. Well, soap and hot water were obviously present, baths being celebrated in song ... and you know well enough yourself the high esteem a Hobbit could earn for providing a satisfying feast at table. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

For what it's worth ..... Taking a slightly more scholarly approach, here is a quote based on Leatherleaf, G. (SR 1550) "An Account of the Relations between the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains and the Hobbits of the Northfarthing before SR 1420" (PHd dissertation)

Much to the consternation of their Dwarfish teachers, the Hobbits never seemed particularly interested in the design and manufacture of weapons or armor, but rather took the metal arts to their highest expression in the production of fine bronze plumbing fixtures and fittings. Indeed, for those who could afford it, Shire-made kitchen and bathroom fixtures were the highest quality and best known in Middle Earth, for the Hobbits did enjoy comfort more than anything. By the end of the first millennium it was only the poorest Hobbit dwellings that still made do with outhouses, as indoor plumbing had become the norm (Leatherleaf SR1550).

The above erudite anthropological information comes from the following website:
http://www.shirepost.com/HistoryPractice.html

(Okay, so maybe it's not official, but I thought the information entertaining enough to be worth sharing anyways.) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

[Birdland]

LOL! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] "Yay, and we will beat our swords into plumbing fixtures." - Orlando the Clean. (SR 1562)

[Child of the 7th Age]

You know this ties in to something very interesting that was said about the movie. The people doing the art direction for the movie were told to think of each community as being in a different age. The Shire was the highest, e.g, Edwardian. Then as you moved east, it went further back in time. When you got over to Gondor, you were in the middle ages. And finally you went to prehistoric times in Mordor. (I can hardly wait to see prehistoric Mordor!)

Do you get any sense of this from the book, or was it just something crazy PJ came up with for the movie scenes? How would this have affected how people lived?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Bêthberry]

*skips in to say hello to Child of the 7th Age and Everyone Else on this thread*

That sense of 'historical retreat' is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how well it fits my reading of the various cultures in Middle Earth and I'm not sure the movie follows through with that.

The social etiquette of the Shire resembles that of Victorian or Edwardian England, with its 'Miss' this and 'Mr' that and the decorum humorously at odds with the gossiping and petty jealousies (vaguely Dickensian?). But would an Edwardian context suit the pre-Industrial Shire? (Certainly the dinnerware in the movie is not Wedgewood or Spode, LOL!) I had always imagined, from the book, something Tudorish or Elizabethan for The Shire, something Italian Renaissance for Minas Tirith (warring city states and all that). The descriptions of Bree, with their marked sense of a retreat from trade and outside commerce, their insularity, seemed more suited to the walled or 'gated' communities of the Middle Ages.

Not so much a march back in time, as the variation of European cultures.

The movie gave me the sense that celtic imagery was used for Rivendell while some of the archways of Lothlorien reminded me of the flying buttresses of French cathedrals such as Chartres.

Not to say that I am terribly knowledgable about European history myself, coming from that almost druidic Old Forest.

*curtsies respectfully*

Bethberry


[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hail Bethberry,

Welcome to the discussion. You've presented some intriguing reflections in your usual eloquent way that are well worth pondering.

The case of Bree is particularly interesting. While your reference to Bree calls to mind the facts that Breelanders are not given to travel and are mainly concerned with the doings of their own villages, of Bree, Staddle, Combe, and Archet, still, I'm not sure it entirely fits my own reading of Breeland culture. You say:

The descriptions of Bree, with their marked sense of a retreat from trade and outside commerce, their insularity, seemed more suited to the walled or 'gated' communities of the Middle Ages.

To my mind, the sense of retreat from trade and outside commerce comes not from an inherent, concerted reluctance of Breelanders to deal with outsiders, but rather, from a heightened sense of caution due to the spread of danger from the growing Shadow.

Certainly, the Men of Bree accepted an influx of Hobbits into their territories, and a vibrant trade sprung up among them as Big Folk and Little Folk lived quite happily side by side.

Further, under normal circumstances, I've found the Men of Bree ...

... more friendly and familiar with Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves, and other inhabitants of the world about them than was (or is) usual with Big People.

(Above quote from LOTR, in the chapter "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony.")

I look forward to further discussion on this, as you wish. * bows *

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Bêthberry]

Good morning to you, Gandalf the Grey. The vibrant sunlight shining into my room makes discussion here all the more pleasant.

With your usual acumen, you have indeed expressed clearly what I meant about the Breelanders, who have an admirable community of men and hobbits. I did not intend to imply the negative connotation of 'insular,' only meaning 'standing alone.' To me, the walled cities of Europe of a thousand years ago (and less) were defensive rather than exclusionary. I, too, do not see the Breelanders as narrowly restrictive but rather as protective or cautionary. That is the tone taken by Harry, the gatekeeper.

'I am Mr. Brandybuck. Is that enough for you? The Bree-folk used to be fair-spoken to travellers, or so I had heard.'

'All right, all right!' said the man. 'I meant no offense. But you'll find maybe that more folk than old Harry at the gate will be aksing you questions. There's queer folk about. If you go to The Pony, you'll find you're not the only guests.' ('At the Sign of the Prancing Pony')

There is, though, a hint of something parochial in The Shire, that the hobbits are a little too complacent with themselves and their land, a little too inclined to gossip over those who tend to be more irregular than proper. Comes perhaps from being protected by the Rangers, who are too mysterious for even the Breelanders to get close to.

When they [the Rangers] appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them.

I am discovering the wonderful rewards for rereading. Just last week I realized that the Brandybucks have their own "private entrance" to the Old Forest. It is Merry who leads the Hobbits into the Forest.

Hoping you, and others, will find more to discuss,

Bethberry

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Well then Bethberry,

We're all settled as far as Bree. As for the Shire, the foibles of its residents make it all the more endearing to me. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] The Rangers obviously recognize something well worth protecting there, and choose to go about the whole process mysteriously and asking nothing in return, for a reason.

Gandalf the Grey

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

If I could where to live in Middle Earth, I would choose the Shire, I love it that much

[Kin-strife]

Just on the subject of hygiene and health we must remember some facts in the books that don't exist real life. In the books all the wrongs in the world are fundamentally blamed on the marring of Arda by Melkor. So deseases, i imagine, are not something linked with hygiene and cleanliness but rather an evil unleashed in the world by Morgoth and his disciples. So I don't imagine middle-earth would have had a rotten peasant class like pre-industrial Europe barring, perhaps, the Orcs and the Easterlings

[Bêthberry]

In light of Child of the 7th Age's comment about the movie using an Edwardian style for the daily life of The Shire, here is a link with some quotations from Tolkien's Letters pertaining to the nature of The Shire. One letter identifies similarities to rural Warkickshire during Victoria's jubilee year; another suggests that a direct analogy is incorrect. I am familiar only with literary descriptions of 19C Yorkshire, so this is a difficult association for me to make.

Thanks to Gandalf the Grey for providing the home link, from which I took this reference. Is the Shire 19C rural England?

*curtsies*
Bethberry

[piosenniel]

BETHBERRY

Thank you for posting that excellent link!

[Bêthberry]

Thank you, piosenniel, but the real thanks should go to Gandalf the Grey, who posted a reference to the link originally on this thread:Do we live in Middle Earth?

*skipping off to tend to her garden*
Bethberry

[Bêthberry]

Testing pic. Will delete later today.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]