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05-28-2012, 03:41 AM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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Hobbit2 - Chapter 04 - Over Hill and Under Hill
The title of this chapter seems to foreshadow Frodo's alias in FotR! We also meet the primary foes of LotR here, the goblins/orcs. They are more dangerous than the trolls, of course, especially since they are said to be intelligent in their own way, but it's early in this tale and they seem to be less important here than in the Middle-earth we see later.
How do you see Gandalf's actions in this episode? Can Fili and Kili be blamed for saying the cave is safe when even the wizard couldn't find anything suspicious on closer examination? Bilbo seems to be just luggage in this chapter - that reminds me of Merry's complaint of being treated like baggage by the Rohirrim in LotR. How would our reading of this chapter be different if we didn't always have the thought of LotR in the back of our minds? (Link to the previous discussion)
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
05-28-2012, 07:47 AM | #2 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
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Well, the first-time reader would possibly be more concerned that the goblins would recapture at least some of the group, and the Ring would not be in his mind at all. He might also at this point be getting a little tired of Gandalf always being there to save the day, not knowing how soon that would change.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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05-28-2012, 10:00 AM | #3 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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Although, I would also point out the dwarves seem rather...useless on the journey so far. I'm not sure if useless is the right way of putting it, but they're doing an excellent job of getting stuck in unfortunate situations (that really aren't of Bilbo's making). First they walk right into the troll camp one-by-one, insuring that all of them get captured (and thus needing rescuing from Gandalf). Then in this chapter the only one who wakes from Bilbo's screams is Gandalf. Quote:
Some other parts that stood out to me. In the previous chapter, I shared my adoration for the description of Elrond, and in this chapter, I feel there was another beautiful passage, with the description of the storm: Quote:
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Fenris Penguin
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05-28-2012, 11:42 AM | #4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The dwarves aren't totally usless in this chapter. Thorin stops with Galdalf to fend off their goblin pursuers. And of course, even though Tolkien didn't have his later Ring conception yet, it is a crucial chapter not only for leading to the Ring being found, but the beginning of Bilbo's growth and the correctness of Gandalf's selecting him over the dwarves objections.
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' |
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05-28-2012, 12:32 PM | #5 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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05-28-2012, 07:44 PM | #6 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 479
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This chapter brings in and exits out the infamous “stone-giants” almost unmentioned elsewhere.
Two chapters further on Tolkien remarks: ‘I must see if I can’t find a more or less decent giant to block it up again,’ said Gandalf, ‘or soon there will be no getting over the mountains at all.’The “giant” here mentioned may be one of these “stone-giants”, for Gandalf would likely be seeking a giant in the vicinity of the cave. In The Fellowship of the Rings, Book I, in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”, Sam Gamgee remarks: But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.Here Sam’s use of the word “Tree-men” suggests that in this case what was seen was not a stone-giant, but rather an Ent, of whom the Hobbits are here imagined to have some tradition, although later on neither Merry nor Pippen seem aware of such traditions. Possibly the stone-giants of the Misty Mountains are to be imagined as a larger variety of the trolls already encountered in this tale. In The Lord of the Rings, Appendix F, I, Trolls, Tolkien explains: Trolls took such language as they could muster from the Orcs; and in the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech.Therefore the trolls met with by the dwarves and Bilbo were “Stone-trolls” and, taking the word giant as usually interpreted in modern English, a Stone-giant was a larger variety of Stone-troll. These stone-giants in their gleeful tossing of stones appear to be influenced by pure exuberance brought on by the stormy weather. Seemingly the stone-giants don’t notice the dwarves, Bilbo, Gandalf, the ponies, and the single horse. No wonder Sauron didn’t bother with them, especially since they would turn to stone permanently if they ventured into the daylight. |
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