The grey havens? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Barrel Rider · 02-10-2001, 07:43 PM

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the grey havens was a sea port, but when everybody left on the boats Where did they go. Im not to sure but i think it is left to inturprit your self and there is no ral answer. is this true or did they go somewhere else?

</p>

enep · 02-10-2001, 08:26 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Across the Sea

They went across the wide oceans to Eressea and Valinor, the havens of the Maiar/Valar etc. along with the High Elves of the West. It's the Elves sanctuary from the World/ME, a sacred realm sort of. <img src=smile.gif ALT="

">

- enep</p>

Zoe · 02-10-2001, 08:29 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Across the Sea

If you want to know more about Valinor, read The Silmarillion. It's hard-going at first, but it's incredibly interesting once you get into it.

</p>

Mhoram · 04-07-2001, 11:14 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Eressea and Valinor

could someone reference where it is stated that the Eldar/Ringbears/Istari etc.. go to Eressea AND Valinor and not one or the other? I know that from Legolas' poem in 'The Field of Cormallen' he atleast assumes that he will go to Eressea and it seems (though i unfortunately can't site a reference) that Galadriel is permitted to return to Valinor after the end of the Third Age. So, those who returned either A)Got to go to either one or B)Had to go to a specific one(perhaps not the same one for everybody). Can anyone offer reference to clarify?

</p>

Orald · 04-08-2001, 03:37 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Eressea and Valinor

I thought it was at the end of LotR, but I haven't read it in a few years. Actually I haven't eve read through Sil completely in a few months and everything becomes hazy to me at that point. So if it isn't at the end of the Silm. or LotR then I am sure it could be found somewhere in HoME, no exact reference though, sorry. Perhaps another may enlighten you.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

**lindil** · 04-08-2001, 04:28 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Eressea and Valinor

I have no hard references for you.
I do recently recall reading something to the effect of 'and they would be permitted to return to Tol Erresea and if they wished even to Valinor beyond.

Not letting the Noldor return to their kin in Tirion would be rather cruelas they could see the City [was the gap completly closed?]
Well any way I primarily posted to say I think this is Mithadan's area of expertise.
If I find anything I will certainly post.
great query, and welcome to the Downs Barrel Rider and Mhoram !

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/8/01 6:31:38 am

***Mithadan*** · 04-10-2001, 08:34 PM

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Re: Eressea and Valinor

Sorry to take so long Mhoram. This is one of the "quiet" unclear areas (unlike Bombadil and Balrog wings). Its not clear whether the Noldorin rebels or those who declined the summons could go farther than Eressea. It does appear that they lived there rather than in Aman. The Sil. says something like "from whence they could even come to Valinor" in the concluding pages where the return of the exiles is discussed. But does this really make sense? Finrod, who dies in Middle Earth, gets to live in Valinor with his father Finarfin while his sister Galadriel who does not die in Middle Earth cannot live in Valinor? Thoughts anyone?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

**lindil** · 04-11-2001, 07:33 AM

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Re: Eressea and Valinor

I do not have my road goes ever on handy [ on loan] but I can offhand only think of the references just cited. Certianly it would get a little crowded I would think.

I just found this in the 1971 Letter 325

I do not think it really clears anything up though :<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The 'immortals ' who were permitted to leave Middle-Earth and see Aman- the undying lands of Valinor and Eressea, an islandassigned to the Eldar - set sail on ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage...As for Frodo or other mortals , they could dwell in Aman only for a short time.

<hr></blockquote> Ital. authors.

JRRT also puts forward idea's seeming to disregard the Myth's Transformed cosmology, and at a very late date.

The entire letter is very much worth reading . There were numerous other references to Aman in the index but that was chronos would allow for.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Orald · 04-11-2001, 02:22 PM

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Re: Eressea and Valinor

Well it looks like that shoots Mith's fanfic right down. heheh

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

**lindil** · 04-11-2001, 08:59 PM

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?

My reading is that it left a vague situation even vaguer. But i am rather bleary-eyed at the moment.

L

</p>

***Mithadan*** · 04-12-2001, 05:40 AM

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Re: ?

Durelen, why does any of this "shoot down" my fanfic? What I write is not inconsistent with any of this.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Orald · 04-12-2001, 10:35 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The grey havens?

The first time I read lindil's quote 'only' went with Aman, rather than 'a short time'. Both 'in Aman' and 'for a short time' being prepositional phrases can be a little confusing. I read it like 'they could dwell only in Aman for a short time'. But now I see that it should be 'they could dwell in Aman for only a short time.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

Pengolodh · 04-16-2001, 11:41 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The grey havens?

Early Silmarillion tales, found in Shaping of Middle-earth do state that the Island of Tol Eressea was almost depopulated in the First Age, but got populated again after the War of Wrath. It also notes that the returning Eldar were in fact not allowed to return to Valinor, but lived in Tol Eressea, upon which were built several cities, not just Avallone.

Cheers

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

Mhoram · 04-08-2002, 10:18 PM

Quote:

could someone reference where it is stated that the Eldar/Ringbears/Istari etc.. go to Eressea AND Valinor and not one or the other? I know that from Legolas' poem in 'The Field of Cormallen' he atleast assumes that he will go to Eressea and it seems (though i unfortunately can't site a reference) that Galadriel is permitted to return to Valinor after the end of the Third Age. So, those who returned either A)Got to go to either one or B)Had to go to a specific one(perhaps not the same one for everybody). Can anyone offer reference to clarify?

Ahhh memories. heh. This was my very first post, one year ago today. Wanna hear the story? huh? huh? huh? do ya? do ya? Ok.

About a half hour before I had stumbled into #barrowdowns while surfing sorcery.net. There were only two people in the chat room that night, Barrow-Wight and Borthand. Believe it or not, it used to be rare to find more than six people in the chat room at any one time. I asked the above question to them and by their referal and link came to the forum to ask the question. I soon fell in love with this community and have been here ever since.

To all the great people who maintain this beautiful site, BW, Sharku, Thenamir, Gilthalion, Mithadan, and Mr. Underhill, thank you for providing so many Tolkien fans like myself a home away from home.

And to all the friends that i've made over the last twelve months, some whom I still speak with nearly every day, some whom have been lost to us over time, I thank you all for the genuine companionship, great memories, hard laughs, and all that comes along with.

-Mhoram

Aralaithiel · 04-09-2002, 02:48 PM

Awwwww! Mhoram! You've brought tears to the High Queen of the Eldar's eyes! That is soooo touching! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
And yes, I AM SERIOUS here!!! I like you. Mhoram!
Yes, a hearty round of thanks & miruvor to the Keepers of the Barrow-Downs! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
(it would help if I could type! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Aralaithiel ]

02-10-2001, 07:43 PM	#1
Barrel Rider Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 11	The grey havens? <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 5</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> the grey havens was a sea port, but when everybody left on the boats Where did they go. Im not to sure but i think it is left to inturprit your self and there is no ral answer. is this true or did they go somewhere else? </p>

02-10-2001, 08:26 PM	#2
enep The Ghastly Leprechaun Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 406	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 281</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Across the Sea They went across the wide oceans to Eressea and Valinor, the havens of the Maiar/Valar etc. along with the High Elves of the West. It's the Elves sanctuary from the World/ME, a sacred realm sort of. <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> - enep</p> __________________ - enep

04-08-2001, 04:28 AM	#6
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 585</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Eressea and Valinor I have no hard references for you. I do recently recall reading something to the effect of 'and they would be permitted to return to Tol Erresea and if they wished even to Valinor beyond. Not letting the Noldor return to their kin in Tirion would be rather cruelas they could see the City [was the gap completly closed?] Well any way I primarily posted to say I think this is Mithadan's area of expertise. If I find anything I will certainly post. great query, and welcome to the Downs Barrel Rider and Mhoram ! Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/8/01 6:31:38 am __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

04-10-2001, 08:34 PM	#7
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,374	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 815</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Eressea and Valinor Sorry to take so long Mhoram. This is one of the "quiet" unclear areas (unlike Bombadil and Balrog wings). Its not clear whether the Noldorin rebels or those who declined the summons could go farther than Eressea. It does appear that they lived there rather than in Aman. The Sil. says something like "from whence they could even come to Valinor" in the concluding pages where the return of the exiles is discussed. But does this really make sense? Finrod, who dies in Middle Earth, gets to live in Valinor with his father Finarfin while his sister Galadriel who does not die in Middle Earth cannot live in Valinor? Thoughts anyone? --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

04-11-2001, 07:33 AM	#8
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 592</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Eressea and Valinor I do not have my road goes ever on handy [ on loan] but I can offhand only think of the references just cited. Certianly it would get a little crowded I would think. I just found this in the 1971 Letter 325 I do not think it really clears anything up though :<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> The 'immortals ' who were permitted to leave Middle-Earth and see Aman- the undying lands of Valinor* and Eressea, an islandassigned to the Eldar - set sail on ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage...As for Frodo or other mortals , they could dwell in Aman only for a short time. <hr></blockquote> Ital. authors. JRRT also puts forward idea's seeming to disregard the Myth's Transformed cosmology, and at a very late date. The entire letter is very much worth reading . There were numerous other references to Aman in the index but that was chronos would allow for. Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

02-10-2001, 08:29 PM	#3
Zoe Wight Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 223	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 195</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Across the Sea If you want to know more about Valinor, read The Silmarillion. It's hard-going at first, but it's incredibly interesting once you get into it. </p>

04-07-2001, 11:14 PM	#4
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 2</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Eressea and Valinor could someone reference where it is stated that the Eldar/Ringbears/Istari etc.. go to Eressea AND Valinor and not one or the other? I know that from Legolas' poem in 'The Field of Cormallen' he atleast assumes that he will go to Eressea and it seems (though i unfortunately can't site a reference) that Galadriel is permitted to return to Valinor after the end of the Third Age. So, those who returned either A)Got to go to either one or B)Had to go to a specific one(perhaps not the same one for everybody). Can anyone offer reference to clarify? </p>

04-08-2001, 03:37 AM	#5
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice Posts: 758</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Eressea and Valinor I thought it was at the end of LotR, but I haven't read it in a few years. Actually I haven't eve read through Sil completely in a few months and everything becomes hazy to me at that point. So if it isn't at the end of the Silm. or LotR then I am sure it could be found somewhere in HoME, no exact reference though, sorry. Perhaps another may enlighten you. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

04-11-2001, 02:22 PM	#9
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice Posts: 768</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Eressea and Valinor Well it looks like that shoots Mith's fanfic right down. heheh Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

04-11-2001, 08:59 PM	#10
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 593</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> ? My reading is that it left a vague situation even vaguer. But i am rather bleary-eyed at the moment. L </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

04-12-2001, 05:40 AM	#11
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,374	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 816</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: ? Durelen, why does any of this "shoot down" my fanfic? What I write is not inconsistent with any of this. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

04-12-2001, 10:35 AM	#12
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice Posts: 769</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The grey havens? The first time I read lindil's quote 'only' went with Aman, rather than 'a short time'. Both 'in Aman' and 'for a short time' being prepositional phrases can be a little confusing. I read it like 'they could dwell only in Aman for a short time'. But now I see that it should be 'they could dwell in Aman for only a short time. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

04-16-2001, 11:41 AM	#13
Pengolodh Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 51	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 3</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The grey havens? Early Silmarillion tales, found in Shaping of Middle-earth do state that the Island of Tol Eressea was almost depopulated in the First Age, but got populated again after the War of Wrath. It also notes that the returning Eldar were in fact not allowed to return to Valinor, but lived in Tol Eressea, upon which were built several cities, not just Avallone. Cheers "In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

04-09-2002, 02:48 PM	#15
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Awwwww! Mhoram! You've brought tears to the High Queen of the Eldar's eyes! That is soooo touching! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] And yes, I AM SERIOUS here!!! I like you. Mhoram! Yes, a hearty round of thanks & miruvor to the Keepers of the Barrow-Downs! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] (it would help if I could type! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) [ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Aralaithiel ] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"