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#1 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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12 Of the Flight of the Noldor
This is the first draft of the chapter 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor.
Our basis text is that of Annals of Aman given in HoMe 10. Were ever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark. The markings are: FoN-EX-xx for Flight of the Noldor, Expansions FoN-LQ-xx for Flight of the Noldor, for changes that bring additions from the Quenta Silamrillion to the last state in which Tolkien worked in the Later Quenta. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. Quote:
FoN-LQ-01 & FoN-LQ-02: Bringing QS to LQ. FoN-EX-02: Orodreth is no longer a son of Finarfin but a grandson. We might discuss if he as the only third generation kin of Finwë’s family spoke at all in this debate in Tirion. FoN-EX-03: Galadriel is most probably no longer the youngest in the Hous of Finwë, since Celebrimbor, Idril and Orodreth are all third generation. Celebrimbor as the son of Curufin might have been older and Idril might not yet have been born but at least Orodreth as son of her brother would nearly for sure be younger. FoN-EX-04: Here I added a part of what I named source D from The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. FoN-EX-05: If Galadriel should fight against the Feanorians in Aqualondë Galadriel can not leave Tirion with the other Noldor, therefore these addition. FoN-EX-06: This addition from Shibboleth needs to be placed here. FoN-EX-07: I didn’t found any other source for this, but I think it should be taken up into the text. FoN-EX-08: This passages from LQ is specially interesting by showing Feanor fearing Helkaraxë. FoN-LQ-03 & FoN-LQ-04: Bringing QS to LQ. FoN-EX-09: QS does put much more emphasis on the singularity oft he Telerin ships. FoN-EX-10: Here I mixed the ‚lend‘ from AAm into the text of LQ. FoN-EX-11: This description of Aqualondë is worth to be taken, We can of course discuss if this is the right place, but I think it is, because it is reffered to later in this chapter. FoN-EX-12: We already told the reaction of the Teleri, so this has to go. FoN-EX-13: LT adds some direct ‘speech’ here. FoN-EX-14 & FoN-EX-15 & FoN-EX-16: Here I mixed the accounts of the start oft he battle. The goal was to keep the story line as in AAm but taking up fitting details from LT. FoN-EX-17: Having heard of Círdan’s attemps to build ships even to driven them on the sea of Rûhn the ships of the Teleri can no longer be called the first ever to have been. FoN-EX-18: Again source D from The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. But I did not take up the rescue of the ship. In that way it is open if Galadriel had already built a ship or not. FoN-EX-19: The detail that the Noldor had to fight their way back from the arc oft he haeven is only found in LT. FoN-EX-20: See FoN-EX-23. If Fingon is not involved, the Arakáno is the most candidate to take that roll, as he was most eager of the brothers. FoN-EX-21: The sad picture of the silent heaven with the broken lamps, I found to moving to be left out. FoN-EX-22: I added here again a part of source D from The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. It does here provide the information what Galadriel did, so we have to edit it. FoN-EX-23: An addition from LQ that makes clear that the princes were guiltyless. FoN-EX-24, FoN-EX-25 & FoN-EX-26: Fingolfin anrageing Feanor by claiming the kingship of their father. FoN-EX-27 & FoN-EX-28: Here we burn Feanors youngest with the ships. FoN-EX-29 & FoN-EX-30: Her we add Elenwë’s death and Turgon reactions to it. Respectfully Findegil |
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#2 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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This was a very nice draft, and I have very few comments. Everything to which I do not respond, I agree to.
FoN-LQ-02: It should be Calacirya, as per LotR. FoN-EX-02: I would leave him in, with the change you made. He is an important figure, even if less than the others. FoN-EX-05: I do not agree with your logic there. If there was fighting she could easily have fought against Feanor and been left on the shore to march with the others. I see no compelling reason to include such a drastic editorial addition. FoN-LQ-04: Agreed, but it should be Helcaraxë, both here and subsequently. FoN-EX-11: This is the perfect place for this ![]() FoN-EX-18: This is good, but the insertion is awkward, as it refers tomany dying and then says "indeed ..." but as Galadriel did not die, this is incorrect. I would start the insertion at "Galadriel" and prefix it to the following sentence, like so: Quote:
Everything else, I agree with, but the text has "Endar" for "Endor" and should be changed. |
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#3 | ||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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I have found two more additions from the Shibboleth of Feanor:
In the first part, after the hosts depart from Tirion: Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 10-07-2017 at 11:23 PM. |
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#4 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Here's a brief thought i had. If we were to include Tolkien's unfinished Flight of the Noldor poem, we should do so in this chapter. Should we do so?
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#5 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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FoN-LQ-02 and FoN-LQ-04: Agreed I forgot to introduce the general change.
FoN-EX-02: Okay for me. FoN-EX-05: Well no other member of the House of Finarfin or his following were involved in the fight at Aqualondë. Beside Feanor and his people only the vanguard of the people of Fingolfin how were the second in the march colon took part in the fight. If Galadriel left Tiriron with her father and brethren than she would not have seen anything of the action, only the final result. Therefore it is no question that she did depart from Tirion on her own. Bu t we might debate if it is necessary to point that out explicitly. FoN-EX-18: Agreed. FoN-EX-20: It is either Arakano/Argon or we have to leave out all princes. As for using Argon, I have already said that the Shibboleth tells that the character was himself never known under that name, so I don’t think we can use it to address him. FoN-EX-07.5: Nice find, I agree to take it up. But I observed that we might change after that insert Fingon to Arakáno/Argon in correspondence to FoN-EX-20 and his description in the SF as the most impetuous of the brethren. I will call that change FoN-EX-07.6 FoN-EX-28.5: Nice find, but I think this would be better placed earlier: Quote:
Respecfully Findegil |
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#6 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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FoN-EX-05: I see this logic, and I agree, but I still feel that such an addition is not warranted, and probably breaks the rules of the project. If we say nothing, it can be assumed by the reader without much difficulty.
FoN-EX-20: I agree to use Argon for the instance, but I am still unsure about the name. I suppose it would be good to have Aiwendil or gandalf to comment on this one. FoN-EX-7.6: Sounds good to me. FoN-EX-28.5: This is much better, you're right! Poem: Yes, you are right. We can simply include it in the poem section in Volume III. |
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#7 | ||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Just found this while editing Q&E:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 12-08-2017 at 10:02 PM. |
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#8 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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I had inserted before hhe cross the sea with the ships in the north of araman. And directly change the word for Taniquetil.
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#9 | |
King's Writer
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To change teh word to Taniquetil is to much of a liberty for me, but I like to the idea of taking this up. But the position where to put it must be discussed.
I don't think that even without mist the Taniquetil could be seen from northern Araman where the Noldor halted and debated and from where Feanor took the ships to cross Belegar. So I do not see that gondowe's positioning of the passage is possible. I find ArcusCalion's positioning more probalbe, but I would postpone it a view more sentences. As already mentioned for the passage to work the Taniquetil must have been at least in clear weather conditions to be viewable from the geographic point reached by Faenor at that time. As long as he is within Calacirya, I don't think he could see the summit at all, being to near to the cheer walls at the foot of the mountian. Reaching Aqualondë could also be to late since the northern branch of the Pelori probably would block the view. So I think he must be on the northern coast of the Bay of Eldamar. Therefore I would position it as follwos: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#10 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Why can we not create a footnote?
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#11 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
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First of all say that I dont have at hand the texts cause im not at home for a time.
As for the location, this is something I thought in the moment I inserted, but in the proper sentence is said "the distant mountains of Valinor"; in my opinion this is enough to think the Noldor were far from them, and they must be in Araman because "the mists of Araman". Of course in my location Taniquetil is very far away but it was the highest mountain of Arda and in other way of thought it is not neccesary that could be seen, only can curse in its direction. But, again coul be my erroneous interpretation of english? As for the word if you want to maintain Dahanigwishtilgūn, in my opinion is neccesary a footnote explain something like this very obscure word and not insert it into the narrative that sounds out of context like (for me) every philological, etc text. But I think is better to change directly in Taniquetil because is a possible explanation into the subcreation not a especulation of us. Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 12-09-2017 at 01:11 PM. |
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#12 | |
King's Writer
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gondowe, I can see your reasoning. It is true that the direct sense of these introduction is that the Noldor are fare from the Pelori, which makes your placement more likely. And yes you are also right that Taniquetil is the highes of all mountains, and might be in a flat world, as we propose it, seen from very, very far away.
So that would mean: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#13 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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As loathe as I am to admit it, I think Elenwe (and her death) have to go.
This comes from 'Maeglin' (c. 1970) in The War of the Jewels (§12, p. 323): Quote:
However, the text B(ii) changes 'Alairë' to 'Anairë' (confusingly enough): Quote:
P.S. Keep in my mind though, some of the changes in general that Tolkien made to the Elven family trees and even the most basic staples of the mythology from 1970 onward were wild - and I have my reservations about keeping them.
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#14 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Not directly related to this thread - but Tolkien also seems to have abandoned the 'Amarie story' (again,
![]() This comes from a late note (after 1966) to 'Of Dwarves and Men', The Peoples of Middle-earth (pp. 317-8): Quote:
Quote:
So, why did Tolkien seemingly abandon the story of Amarie, and Finrod having no wife? I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but I have a feeling that he intended to return to 'Gil-galad son of Finrod' idea (which I think was also the most longeval of the ideas for Gil-galad's parentage, if I'm not mistaken) - but this is just speculation.
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#15 |
King's Writer
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A reason could be that he wanted to avoid the same storry for the wifes of Felagund and Turgon. When Anairë wife of Turgon stayed in Aman, the wife of Felagund had to go with him into Middle-earth.
Gildor Inglorion from LotR comes to mind another possible reason. The question with this change is: do we keep the rescue of Idril during the crossing of the ice? Up to now I considered here being a small child at that point, but that might have been wrong from the start. Respectfully Findegil |
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#16 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
But I think we definitely have to change Elenwe > Alaire (I would avoid 'Anaire', as I stated in my previous reply), regardless of whether or not we reject the 'Elenwe dying at Helcaraxe' story.
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#17 | |
King's Writer
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Having read the source text now a bit farther I am not longer sure that we have to change {Elenwë}[Alairë]. The text in HoME XI, Meaglin reads:
Quote:
First to the Alairë/Elenwë change reported here: the A text from 1951 and the typescript B(i) and Carbon Copy B(ii) as typed from 1970 or later have the name Alairë and that is changed in A and the carbon copy B(ii) but not in B(i) to Anairë. Christopher Tolkiens statment her means, I think' that the corretion in the genealogies of 'Anairë a Vanyar who remained in Tuna' to 'Elenwë who perished in the Ice' was later than the text of 'Meaglin'. And at the same time giving the name and the story of staying back in Tuna to the wife of Fingolfin. As both names are found in The Shibboleth, which is at least later then 1968 I would assume the following sequence: a) Meaglin text written in 1959 with Turgons wife named Alairë and staying in Aman. b) Meaglin text typed in 1970 with Turgons wife named Alairë and staying in Aman. c) Shibboleth written with Fingolfins wife named Anairë and Turgons wife named Elenwë and perishing in the Ice. d) Meaglin A and B cusorily corrected with Alairë => Anairë b) and c) could be exchanged if the retaining of Alairë instead of Elenwë is assume an over sight. As Arvegil145 mentioned already JRR Tolkiens memory was not fully reliable so late in his life. Therefore I would assume that when he corrected the 'Meaglin'-text he had forgotten the change of Alairë => Elenwë and the story of breaking Ice. Therefore what he corrected was just the name (on some linguistical ground, I would think). In effect that would mean we have keep Elenwë and her perishing in the Ice for the wife of Turgon! Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 08-31-2023 at 05:20 AM. |
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#18 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
Besides, I'm not sure about your dating of the 'Shibboleth' - is there any evidence that it postdates 'Maeglin B'? Other than that, though, I think you make a pretty good case.
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#19 |
Wight
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If my opinion is of any use, I agree with Findegil in keeping Elenwë and the entire ice episode. The dating of the texts is somewhat ambiguous and the corrections to them could predate Shibboleth. In any case, I prefer to keep the stories 'finished' rather than ambiguous notes in that sense. I consider it a similar case, although of a different nature, to that of Hador/Magor.
Another 'could' I know, but from c.1960 onwards Tolkien's changing texts and ideas give us no frank certainty. Unless they have a date written personally by the Professor himself. Greetings |
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#20 |
King's Writer
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I think that the correction in the genealogies is later than the making of Meaglin B. But we have no outer evidence for this dating.
The outer evidence make The Shibboleth (1968 or later) and Meaglin B (1970 or later) contemporay documents. But the internal logic of changes suggest The Shibboleth to be later (in my oppinion). However that might be, JRR Tolkiens memory so late in his life was not good enough for being sure about these things. So even if my dating (or rather sequencing) is wrong, the inner logic of such changes suggest strongly that Elenwë perishing in the Ice was what Tolkien wanted for the wife of Turgon. Respectfully Findegil |
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#21 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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#22 |
King's Writer
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Didn't you raise the doubts about that story yourself?
What do you expcat from some one else to do now? Stepping up and searching arguments for Elenwë and her pershing in the ice being dropped? Or was it just a way to ask for more oppinions beside that of gondowe you and me? Respectfully Findegil |
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#23 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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