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#1 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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4 Of the coming of the Elves
Following the special desire of Arvegil145 I post here my first draft of chapter 4 Of the coming of the Elves.
Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 10; page 158-171. Were ever the text is different from that of including the changes introduced in the second phase (LQ2) this is marked by an editing mark. The markings are: CE-EX-xx for Of the coming of the Elves, Expansion CE-SL-xx for Of the coming of the Elves, story line Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. Quote:
Respectfuly Findegil |
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#2 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
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It looks great (so far), but I haven't looked at it closely enough. I've been busy these days, and could not afford to take a more thorough look at it.
And jumping ahead a little - is Elulindo still valid as a son of Olwë? And where would you (if you would indeed) place Gostir, the dragon known only by name - but I think that it needs a mention somewhere. In any case - I will be analyzing your post with great attention. And I have only praise for your relentless work. ![]()
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#3 |
King's Writer
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Elulindo seems to be still valid, but I see no role he would play in any narative. Therefore I think if included at all it will only be in genelogical tables if we provide these.
I don't remember Gostir at all in the moment. Please provide us with a source information about him. Respectfuly Findegil |
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#4 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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#5 |
King's Writer
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Looking deeper into the case of Elulindo, I have some doubts. When the charachter recieved the Name, he was the son of Elwë or Elu in the speak of his own people. Then Olwë, the brother Elu took ofer the role of the 'Lord of the Ships'. We knew that Olwë had many sons. but we can by no means be sure that on of them was still suposed to be named Elulindo.
About Gostir: I can see why you would like to have him mentioned, but I see not were we could include him without cerating a fact that is not based on any hint from JRR Tolkien. If you can think on a way to introduce him under that premission, I will gladly discuss it with you. Respectfuly Findegil |
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#6 |
King's Writer
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I promissed to give some comments on my changes and here is the first part of this:
First an unusual general change {Morgoth}[Melkor]: I suppose we start calling him Morgoth after Feanor named him thus. CE-EX-01: The sleep of Yavanna entered the history only in AAm therefore we need this addition. CE-SL-01: In the later scripts the Balrog were not made by Melkor. CE-EX-02: Again a long insert from AAm, but what is said there is otherwise not found. CE-EX-03: The reason from council should be given. CE-EX-04: Here I have inserted the Legend of the Awaking of the Quendi. As this is a relatively late text I see good reason to insert it. CE-SL-02, -03, -04 and -05: Our version is a flat earth story, there fore we have to change all passages that refers to the day cycle. CE-SL-06, -07: This editorial additions serves the same reason: It brings this to reference to the sun and the daytime in line with a flat earth version. CE-EX-05: A long addition from AAm where the more detailed description is given. CE-EX-06: Following the idea of gondowe, I added part of the Orc-texts from MT here, and therefore this sentence has to go. CE-EX-07: I start with the how Melkor did it. CE-EX-08: The transition to the etymological stuff might be a bit hard. I would appreciate if some one comes up with some thing smother. CE-EX-09: We also might consider too take more then only the introduction. CE-EX-10: This half sentence is moved to a later position. CE-EX-11: If we want transport the full picture, this info from the Munby letter has to included. CE-EX-12: I just wanted to indicate the origin of the text we go on with. CE-EX-13, -14: Since what follows in my draft is exactly this ‘consideration of the ultimate origin’ I changed this sentence accordingly. CE-EX-15: This sentence was moved. CE-SL-08: Again we stick to our flat earth version and to the time structure in which Men arrive with the first rising of the sun. CE-EX-16: This is a change made by JRR Tolkien himself. CE-EX-17: I included this additional info about the Maia-Orks because I found it important. But I removed the comparison to Sauron. We have to discuss if we want to keep the poltergeist. CE-EX-18: This reference to the third age must go. CE-EX-19: In the end this is more a paragraph taken out. CE-EX-20: This back reference is to the paragraph taken out. CE-SL-09: Again Men are not available until much later. CE-EX-21: This wild mixture is to e included, I think. CE-EX-22: Again a reference to Morgoth to be taken out. CE-EX-23: A last summary of the Ork creation. I will follow with further comments as fast as I can handle. Respectfuly Findegil |
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#7 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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One more character came to my mind while I was rereading the Lost Tales: Ainairos - although he doesn't come until later - should he be kept? I don't see a reason why he shouldn't.
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#8 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Uffff. With patience. I need time to revise. Of course with a first look, there are many things very different with my edition. For the moment only say that, in my opinion, the MT texts in many cases are very "essayist" to include in a "narrative" stuff. (CE-EX-39 f.e.).
Well, when I can do it. Greetings. |
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#9 |
King's Writer
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A second go on Comments:
CE-EX-24: This headline for the sub-chapter has no source in Tolkien. If someone has more authoritative idea I would gladly take it. CE-EX-25: At this point the source info was wrong. Actually we change back to our basis text LQ. CE-SL-10: Ælfwine is out of our version and this does together with our inserts provoke the grammatical change from {they}the Elves. CE-SL-11: Oromë’s help in making language is mention some were else already and the rest is deleted due to Tolkiens own change. CE-EX-26: The pure joy of the Valar at the coming of the Elves is only hinted at in the later legendarium. I see nothing that speaks against the more direct version of LT. CE-EX-27: In the later legendarium Oromë seems no longer in need of his mother to tell him about the children of Eru. CE-EX-28: Angainor is still valid as the inserts from MT show. So I think we should also take up it making. At least we should take the next paragraph with the counsel taken. CE-EX-29: The change from the direct story telling of LT to the remote comments of the essays from MT adds a nice contrast. ![]() CE-SL-12: In the later legendarium the Valar have to deal with Utumno and Angband. CE-EX-30: The armour taking of the Valar might be to pictorial, but I find it still fitting. CE-EX-31, -32: Okay, Makar and Messa have no place in our version. CE-EX-33: In the later legendarium some tasks that were Nonores were taken up by Eönwë and of course all the parts of Fionwe. Thus we might choose if Eönwë should be behind Manwë on the chariot or go before. CE-EX-34: Nahar, Orome’s horse is white not brown. CE-EX-35: If one of the Valar of the later legendarium would be probable to have a son then it is Tulkas, but still I think it is much safer to leave Telimektar out of our version. CE-SL-36: Ops! A pure numbering error it should be CE-SL-13. To the point itself, as we learn from MT even in this battle Melkor was not willing to fight it out personally. CE-EX-36: Here follow a long insert from AAm which provides the best description of the war. CE-EX-37: This is an insert in the insert. And it takes the breaking of the gates from LT. No later account is found how the Valar broke that gate, so why not by the magic of Oromë’s horn? CE-EX-38: These changes are based on Tolkiens plan to reduce the number of the Balrogs and by that make them more formidable. As we have based our work in FoG on the assumption 3 or maximum 7 we are obliged to take this changes as well. CE-EX-39: Here it is high time for this addition, as it explains nicely what the Valar had archived in the war up to this point. CE-EX-40, -14: As explained in my last post, Morgoth has to go. But the theory here bound to that name is valid and for sure worth recording. CE-EX-42: This is the only descriptive look into the pits of Utumno we will ever get. It would be a shame to lose it. CE-EX-43: This is dangerous territory. Has Melkor given to the Orcs and Balrogs the power of recuperation and multiplication? Not if the Orcs were at least in part Elves, Men, Maiar or even pre-existing beasts and for the Balrogs not if they are Maiar. Therefore I think it much more safe to eliminate the examples. CE-EX-44: Again a description from LT that never changed: The gates of Utumno were blocked but the caverns were still full of evil creatures that a times would find a way out. CE-EX-45: We later seldom get a chance to ears drop on the Valar in council. CE-EX-46: Again Makar the War-God of Tolkien that later was removed. CE-SL-14: Melkor is no longer bound. He has to hold his peace by himself or his plans, recorded in the MT-passages would come to light. CE-SL-15: Again: Melkor is unchained. CE-EX-47: Here at long last we come back to our basis text. And we have to discuss if Melkor was bound with Angainor while he was prisoner in Mandos or not. My feeling is that this was not the case. The reclusion was probably not even meant as a punishment but a help in repentance and selfabasement in order to reassemble his ‘disperesed’ inherent power. CE-SL-16 and -18: This rearrangement is due to my additions. Probably we can delete what follows as redundant, but found it more profitable to keep at least the three ages of peace. CE-SL-17: Again we are talking of Utumno and Angband and not one of them alone. CE-EX-48: Here we have the next chance to listen directly to the Valar in council. CE-EX-49: Nearly a regular change from the later abounded children of the Valar to their folk. CE-EX-50: Ulmo is the one Valar that we knew to oppose the bringing of the Elves to Valinor. Therefore I shifted this argument of Makar to him even so that might be discussed. CE-EX-51: Again, we know that Ulmo was in opposition to this. CE-EX-52: Being back in our basic text we add here the info who brought the message to Cuivienen. CE-EX-53: The second council again reported most excellently in LT. Here might be mentioned that the motive for Ulmo’s smile is changed significantly. When it was written he hope for the Elves to come soon, now he has found some hope that they might refuse the summon. CE-SL-20: The old timeline had Melkor in prison for a long time when the Elves arrived. This was clearly changed. CE-EX-54 to -58: AAm and LT have here the fuller accounts and are therefore the texts I have chosen. With CE-EX-59 begin the additions from Q&E, but since it is getting late already and I think I missed at least one of these, I will stop here and come back to it later this week. About Ainairos: Up to now I have not included him or his role as leader of the Teleri party speaking against the Noldor after the kin-slying into my draft. But now he will be one of the points checked before I post these part of my draft. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 09-22-2015 at 07:27 AM. |
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#10 | ||
King's Writer
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Before I go on with my comments on the changes I would like to introduce some more material:
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Here only the comments on the first part I added: CE-EX-09 and -12: I changed the source inforamtion to make clearer where to find this text. CE-EX-13.2: This is Appendix C of Q&E. It is very linguistic stuff, but with some info include that seems to me worth consideration. CE-EX-13.3: I moved this paragraph up to hold the info about manish tongues together. CE-EX-13.4: This should be used later. Probably in the chapter 13 Of the Sindar. CE-EX-13.5: I moved this Note from the Essay into a footnote in our text. Respectfully Findegil |
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#11 |
King's Writer
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On we go with my comments:
CE-EX-58.3: Here I added the linguistic Information about the Name Avari. CE-EX-58.4: Since we moved the texts we have to Change the reference. CE-EX-58.5: Again here, but 'it will been said' seems not okay for me. CE-EX-59: As this contains a lot of Information about the debate among the Quendi I find it improtant to include it. CE-EX-60: This should probably have been a -SL- number, but the fact is the sun is not around in our version of this time. CE-EX-60.3: The Calben/Morben info fits (if at all) in this place. CE-EX-60.4: The reference is to paragraph we did not take up fully, so it has to go. CE-EX-60.5: Both Information (about Eöl and Saeros insult) must be considered for inserting in the proper place in the narative. CE-EX-61: The Long Addition from Q&E does bring in the Information about relative numbers of the sundering of the Elves. CE-EX-62, -64 and -65: Here are inserted the lingustical information about the respective clan names. CE-EX-63: A Change in the Basic text made by JRR Tolkien. CE-EX-66, -67 and -68: The use and Definition of 'Umanyar' is much broder given in Q&E. CE-EX-69: The journey of the Eldar is best described in AAm. CE-SL-21: Do we hold that chronology? I found it safer to remove the years. CE-EX-70: Namo is no longer valid as shown in Q&E below. CE-EX-71: Linguistics about the Nandor, denying the validity of Namo. CE-EX-72: Do we Change the chronology? If yes, These might stand. Safest way would probably be to remove both 'not' and 'long'. CE-EX-73: Again we take up AAm because it gives the fuller account. CE-SL-22: Again a question if we want to fix the chronolgy or not. CE-EX-74: I couldn't resist this nice and melacholic part from LT maken clear how horiable that journey must have been. CE-EX-75 and -76: Linguistics about the Sindar. CE-EX-77: Since Dân no longer seems to be the right name, his people should be named after him. A view Point in addition: - I have marked that I missed some of Tolkiens notes especialy in thses last paragraphs. I will later work on that point. - I am currently think about an addition here from Q&E about the Falathrim and probably including the Essay Círdan. Respectfully Findegil |
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#12 | ||
King's Writer
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Okay, I did the work with the Notes directly, so why not share it:
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Findegil |
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#13 | |
King's Writer
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Okay, I discovered a mistake of mine: Starting with CE-EX-73 I expanded a part of the LQ that was deliberately a summary of events told later in a much fuller account. The summary is given at this place to complete lingustical account (that is original in LQ) of the names of the Elvish groups. The next chapter 6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië begins with the Vanyar and Noldor reaching the shore of Beleriand. Therefore here is only the palce for linguistic information to be added and not for expansion the story telling. I worked through the text again keeping that in mind and give it here starting with last paragraph before the changes begin. This paragraph is from an addition coming from Q&E:
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CE-EX-73 (with CE-SL-22) This Story is told in the next chapter. If the AAm has to be inserted there must be discussed when we edit that chapter. CE-EX-74 Same is true for this material from [/b]LT[/b]. Accordingly §30 of the original LQ is restored. CE-EX-75 and -76: These are unchanged from the last version. CE-EX-76.1: This is a long addition from Q&E. It includes some farther information about the Sindar an general but also adds names in Sindarin for the Noldor and the devision of the Sindar themselves. CE-EX-76.2: The reference was from one part of Q&E to an other, but due to my editing they are now very close together. CE-EX-76.3: I removed this spoiler. The enmity between Thingol and the Feanorians should not be fortold. CE-EX-76.4: Here I removed the structure of the Q&E text. The last 3 paragraphs about the Círdan’s folk I would rather use in chapter 6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië were also the essay Círdan is used. Respectfully Findegil |
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#14 | ||||||||||||||||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Hi all! I have finished reviewing Findegil's changes for this section, and I will here place my thoughts. This will be quite a long post, so I apologize. Before I begin, I want to commend Findegil for doing such a thorough job of finding all relevant passages to be included.
all bits in italics are my proposed changes. Any section not remarked on is one I've agreed with completely. CE-EX-01: I agree about this insertion, but your version is somewhat choppy, as it contains some repetition. Maybe: Quote:
CE-SL-01: agreed. just a question, are we going with Ork or Orc? CE-SL-02, -03, -04, -05, -06 and -07: I agree with the fact that they need change, but I have a few minor suggested changes. For 03 we should remove "again" from "the stars were again shining in the morrow-dim" because in this version they have always been shining, so there is no need to make note of their shining "again." For 04 In a similar vein, the preceding sentence reads: "It was still night and clouds were in the sky." we should no doubt change "still night" to "dark" because again, it was always night then. There is a reference you did not mark which I will call CE-SL-04.2 For 05 I think we could keep simply "by twilight" but we could also simply delete it. For 06 I think we should delete the reference to the Sun of summer. Inserting "later" to me seems awkward, and also seems to contradict that the sun was for Men and gave them the greatest joy. For 07 I would remove "in the spring of the year" because it was during the sleep of yavanna, and so there were no seasons. CE-EX-05: I agree about the insertion. Two small things: in your version Cuiviénen is missing its accent mark here and several other places, but that's minor. The other question is "Endon." the published Sil has Endor, so are we sure that "Endon" is the latest form? CE-EX-07: This section does not work at all tonally or in its subject matter. This is Tolkien analysing the nature of Morgoth, and does not fit at all in this section. CE-EX-08: The transition is jarring, and I think a subheading is need “Of Orcs.” If we remove the previous paragraph, then it should be placed here. Otherwise, this is good, as it flows with the narrative. CE-EX-10: I could not find where it was moved to. Why is it out of place there? CE-EX-11: this has too colloquial of a tone, maybe: Quote:
CE-SL-08: agreed. I have one question: Quote:
CE-EX-17: The text of the note is not finished, and so inserting it as is does not work. Perhaps a rewording of: Quote:
CE-EX-18: agreed. I noticed that you stopped after Quote:
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CE-EX-21: The word (sterile!) is awkward. Maybe remove: Quote:
CE-EX-24: I cannot find a source for the subheading, but this heading is plainly necessary, and the Captivity of Melkor is the period and the event it is describing, so it works. CE-EX-26, -27: This section feels tonally jarring, perhaps some minor editing is needed. I agree with -27 however. Maybe: Quote:
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CE-SL-12: Why was “and make an end” removed? CE-EX-30, -31, -32, -33, -34, and -35: The first part of this section feels to me to be very much against the tone and presentation of the Valar in the later legendarium. They are presented as physical pagan gods in war gear, whereas Tolkien later came to view the Valar as more spiritual and demiurgic in their conflicts. This description of them seems to reduce them from their state in the later legendarium as the Powers of the Earth to simply pagan gods. However, if we want to retain it, we must remove the reference to Salmar and Omar, as they were not major figures in the later legendarium: Quote:
[quote] { Thus was it that}[Then] the {Gods}[Valar] got them over the sea and through the isles, and set foot upon the wide lands, and marched in great power and anger ever more to the North. Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.> CE-EX-37: Ringil should be Illuin CE-EX-39, -40, -41, -42, and -43: This section is tonally jarring in many places, being an analytical text of motives, and often does not translate well into narrative form. I will recommend my changes: Quote:
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CE-SL-15: agreed. But shortly after this there are some lines that are awkward: Quote:
CE-EX-48, -49: looks good, except {Valmar}[Valimar] and {Palisor}[Endon/r] CE-EX-50, -51: This requires some changes: Quote:
CE-EX-52: This requires minor editing: Quote:
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CE-EX-59 to the end of -60: These sections should go under the next section, to be consistent. CE-EX-65 till the end: The complex philological discussions of the Elven clan names should be included, but I do not think they belong in the narrative itself. I think the QS (and AAm) sections should be put under the main “Of the Captivity of Melkor” heading, and the clan names, including the Avari discussion, should be placed under the subheading “The Clan Names, with Notes on Other Names of the Divisions of the Eldar.” To leave it as is is to ruin the flow of the narrative entirely, and make it virtually unreadable. Phew, that was a long one! Fndegil, you did an incredible job synthesizing so many varied sources of such differing types, and I really have to commend you! |
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#15 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I was just throwing together a draft for the next chapter and I saw a good addition from the Grey Annals for the Captivity of Melkor. Maybe in this way:
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#16 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Hello guys,
I just wanted to let you know that I have read through ArcusCalions comments. Thanks for the detailed criticism. I think some of your suggestion will make it to the final text. (e.g. your CE-EX-35.2). I as well have read your misplaced post in thread about the Athrabeth (probably you should replace it there with a comment that is a misplaced post and but it in here). I will have to read through all this again with my original text beside and my own comments to my changes as well. But it is late already here in Europe (3 o’clock in the night actually) and I will therefore postpone that. (Since I am very occupied in real life, am not sure how soon that might be.) But one more general comment might be in order: I can see your point that the stuff from MT is awkward in style if taken to stand inside a narrative. But we have to be careful in that territory. The project once to the great annoyance of one of its initiators decided to shy bake from any stylistic change. That meant our finished work is not supposed to have any high literature value. (At least in the first step. If motivation would last - as it seems it has not - the members that wanted the stylistic changes envisioned a second phase, in which they would go through the finished work again and remove all the tonally jarring jumps.) Respectfully Findegil P.S.: I see the need to have my draft of the chapters before this one up here in the forum, and to work on that was what brought me here today in the first place. |
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#17 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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What post do you mean Findegil? All my posts in the Athrabeth thread were there by intention.
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#18 | |||
King's Writer
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Posts: 1,714
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Okay at least a first go at the comments of ArcusCalion:
CE-EX-01: If we have to fragment our sources farther to make them work together than I think this might be the better arangement: Quote:
CE-SL-03: Agreed. CE-SL-03.8: 'still night' to 'dark' in the sentence before CE-SL-04: Agreed. CE-SL-04.2: Please explain what you nominated with this? I could not find any change in between CE-SL-04 and CE-SL-05. CE-SL-05: Agreed. CE-SL-06: Agreed. CE-SL-07: But the comparision is with later times when there was a 'morrowdim' and 'even-dim' and with that for sure as well seasons. CE-EX-05: Cuiviénen: Thank you for finding. I will corret it. Endon/Endor: Frankly speaking I don't know. Please feel free to research this since I am away from my books. CE-EX-07; CE-EX-08: I do not agree that CE-EX-07 'does not work at all in its subject matter.' The subject is exactly Melkor's corrupting power which anabled him to creat the Orks. I agree so that it might be better to adapt it 'tonally' at least slightly (see below). To better the transition we might reinstall CE-EX-06 after CE-EX-07 and if you still feel the need of a sub-heading that should be inserted before §45 and it should be simply 'Orcs' taken from Myths Transformed, Text VIII or do we have a sub-heading some where in our source texts 'Of Orcs'? All this would lead to: Quote:
CE-EX-11: I agree on the last sentence, but I do not see why we would need the change in the first. Chapter '3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles' has the following sub-chapters: 'Of Aulë and the Dwarves' with the sub-heading 'Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim' and 'Anaxartaron Onyalie' with the sub-heading 'Of Ents and Eagles'. CE-EX-17: Why do oyu remove the '(', ')' around 'even demon form'? I also do not see the need to delet '(killing)'. The same is true for the removal of ''damned': i.e.'. We might aksed damned by whom? But or reads might ask that question as well. And their answer is as good as ours. I am not willing to let the 'poltergeist' slip away that easy! May be we change her to make it less essay like formulation: Quote:
CE-EX-19, CE-EX-20: Angband is mention at the end of Chapter 1. CE-EX-21: To remove 'sterile' is a no-go for me. The emphasis (!) is Tolkiens and the whole note shows that there was a way of 'sterile' cross breading, at least for the big bad bosses. This info is what I think we must transport, and with removing the 'sterile' we would loss that. CE-EX-24: That is what 'editorial addition' means: An addition with out source in Tolkiens texts. CE-EX-26, CE-EX-27: I agree on {Palisor}[Endon/r]. But the rest of your changes is only for reason of stlye. In this phase 1 of the project we have up to know kept away from such changes. CE-EX-28: Okay, here I agree at least to a few changes: 'magic' might be out of place for the crafts of the Valar. So I agree to the change of magic to power in the making of tilkal. In the footnote I would change 'magic' names to 'poetic' names. Can you give at least a hint what is linguistically wrong with 'Vorotemnar' and 'Ilterendi' -just for the record. CE-SL-12: I removed 'and make an end' because only two sentences above we learn that the war was undertaken without hope of real victory. What else would 'an end' (of what so ever) be, than real victory? Okay, here I have to stop to get at least a tinny bit of sleep. I will go on as soon as times allows. Respectfully Findegil |
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#19 | ||
Quentingolmo
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CE-EX-01: agreed.
CE-SL-04.2: Looking now, I cannot find what I was referencing, so I was probably making a mistake. CE-EX-05: I have just looked into it, and it seems the latest form was Endor, as in the Sil77: Quote:
CE-EX-17: I agree about killing, but to me the word 'damned' and the word 'theological' are too grounded in real world terminology to be applicable in the Ardan conception. but this might be again the issue of style and I am not sure if would fall under the banner of things not to be changed. Your poltergeist addition looks good. CE-EX-81.2: Ah ok that makes sense CE-EX-21: I see that you are right, but sterile cannot simply stand as is, even with the hesitation to change the style. This is simply not in narrative format at all, and should possibly be changed to: Quote:
CE-SL-12: makes sense. |
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#20 |
King's Writer
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CE-EX-07 & CE-EX-17: For 'theological' I can see your reason to find it out of place in a Middle-earth jargon. And I agree hasintatingly to remove it. But for 'damned'? Why should that not be used?
CE-EX-21: I see that your interpretation what the 'sterile' insert means is completely differnt from my one. For me it was a qualifier for the process not for the outcome and it was a kind of precaussion against accusation of Zoophilia. It seems that we can not change the sentence, since we would fix then one interpretation. CE-EX-28: Okay, I will at least try to look abit more intensliy, if I find arguments against the elvish names. Resspectfully Findegil |
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#21 |
Quentingolmo
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Damned is not bad, I suppose the quotation marks seem out of place.
CE-EX-21: even if we had different interpretations, we cannot simply leave it as (sterile!) as that is not grammatically correct at all, as tolkien was simply jotting thoughts down. We must either remove it or pick one. |
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#22 |
King's Writer
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CE-EX-21 What is so wrong with such an insertion, operating as an qualifier? I suppose the exclamation mark is wrong in a way. So if that would help we can skip that.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#23 | ||
King's Writer
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Okay, I try a second go on the comments:
CE-EX-30: This is editing mark is for the complet insert from LT of the armour taking of the Valar. As I wrote in my first comment, I am also not quite sure if this is to be taken or not. As argument for pro: we have included physical descriptions of the Valar. We see them here prepairing themself for a physical war. Probably unexpacted for the Valar the main physical action is not against Melkor but against his agents. About Salmar and Omar: Even in the Lost Tales they are no major figures. So I don't see why this should disqualify them here. Your change in the last part is stylistic and I would do it. But I looking that up I saw an other miss: Quote:
CE-EX-37: Agreed. But was not Illuin the name only of the Lamp? I would there correct in this way: Quote:
About your proposed changes in detail: 1. 'a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), {+}[considered with the sum of] his agents’: The consideration is what follows. I think what Tolkien meant here was Melkor was no longer the central figure only but had created agents to which he had given part of his former self, at least of his power. Therefore I would either stick to 'plus' or replace by 'and'. 2. '{on a power level with}[equal to]': Why do you want to change this? I agree that it is not best style, but the change to 'equal' bad because that was true before as well, as he ever had been of the same order of beeings. 3. '{(sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.)} {piecemeal}[individually]. So {that} they': For all three changes I can only see reason of style. Or do I miss some thing here. 4. 'sufficient {'}force{'} {(in any sense)}': Why should we remove that qualifier? 5. 'evil {magic}[power]': The critisem on 'magic' that is uttered by Galadriel in LotR is only concerned with fact that the word was applied to both the evil deceits of the enemy and the works of elvish craft. So I would think in this circumstance 'magic' is valid. 6. 'his own point of view{:}[; as] he {has}[had] now': This is changing the sense of the construction! The dubble point makes the observation that followes the reference of the sentence before. The semicolon makes it to a kind of addition, with the reference of the sentence before changing to the next paragraph. At least I am strongly against this change. 7. '{Either}{Manwë} {must tell}{[told] him} {so or}{/and/ he}[He] {must }himself suddenly {realize (or both) }[realized] that this {has}[had] happened: he {is}[had] {'}dispersed{'}.': By changing the passage in this way you decised what happend. That is not realy what we want to do. But I agree that as it stands the sentence is problematic in a narative. But then we should go with Tolkiens after thought and not with ours and taking his insert '(or both)' as a guide for our editing. That was what I tried. 8. 'power of recuperation and multiplication{. So}[, so] that they {will}[would]': Changing the point to a comma is pure style. We should shy back from this especially in a footnote. {will}[would]: I can agree to that, if we would consider the world cleand from all agents of Melkor. But then which event in the history should have done that cleaning? As I understood the concept the 'would' is true in 'Arda remade', but as I undertand it our narative is still told in 'Arda marred'. 9. 'creative power {has}[had] gone out': Agreed, but it is change for grammatical reasons, so I will formate it with underlining. 10. '{As with all other characters there must be}{/In/ a trembling}[There was a] moment {when it is}[when]/he was/': Your suggestion of 'There was' is good and I agree also to the restoration of 'when', but why do you want the remove 'trembling'? 11. 'in the balance{:}[; and] he nearly {repents}[repented]': Again this change at least for me does interfere with the sense of the construction, which I am at al loos to allow. 12. 'he could {now} at that moment': What is the reason to remove the 'now'? 13. '{(just like Sauron afterwards on this model)}': I can see some reason for the removal. So I agree to it. Probably we can use it as back reference in Second Age stuff. 14. 'From {which}[this] actually he {gets}[got]a {kind of} perverted pleasure': Again for both your changes I can only see reason of style. If I miss some other reasoning, please explain. 15. '[[footnote to the text] for the mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his true primeval nature.]': I can see your reasoning to move that sentence to a footnote, but this might open the flood gate. The sentence was not a footnote in the original text, so we should keep it in the main body of the text. If necessary we might change it in fromating or in formulation. 16. 'He {actually}[even] {kneels}[knelt] before Manwë': Please explain your reason behind this change. 17. '{deludes}[deluded] Manwë[.]{ -} Manwë {must be shown to have}/had/': I agree to this change. It might be called styleish but on the other hand do we lift a text from analyses to narative, and some small alterations are possible. 18. '{[footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]}': Why do you want to remove this footnote? It is in it content not more critical as the one you wanted to creat out of the remark about Melkors primeval nature. 19. '{ - even 'keeping the status quo' -}': Again I see no reason to remove this insertion. On the contatray, I fell that with removing it we take away some information that Tolkien did provide. CE-EX-45: I agree to change {Vali}[Valar] and as well to the restoration of the 'silver chair of Manwe', but with the concept of the nine great once we can still speak about 'great and small Valar'. CE-SL-15: I agree to your changes of interpunctation. But '{enemy territory}[the lands of his enemies]' is a pure style change in my point of view. And I wouldn't take 'and' as the connectore for the 'He could not do this' but rather 'therefore'. CE-EX-48 & CE-EX-49: Agreed. CE-EX-50 & CE-EX-51: I agree on the Ulmo part. But for Osse, I would rather let him speak cautioulsy against it without the reasoning. My (bad) idea behind keeping the reasoning was that it now would refer to the 'cautiously', but that is bad editing as it is changing the sense. CE-EX-56: Silmo is refered to in chapter 2. Silpion is still a valid name for Telperion so it should stand. The changes you made to the speech of the elvish ambassadore seem good to me, I just do not see why you removed 'new-' from 'new-come'. 'Ilúvatar had {wiped}[removed] from the minds': Pure style, or not? '{Palisor}[Endo Last edited by Findegil; 08-30-2017 at 08:25 AM. |
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#24 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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CE-EX-30: I am pretty strongly inclined against including it, despite the awesome battle descriptions, for the reasons I've already stated. As for Omar and Salmar, my complaint I guess fits more about Omar, as he is most likely not included in the Valaquenta or the Of the Beginning of Time chapters, and thus has no introduction. If he is to be kept here and in Chapter 2, a description of his entry to Arda is probably needed.
CE-EX-39: 1. I think the "and" is better than "plus". 2. "on a power level with" is very colloquial writing, but as you say we shouldnt change style, so fine. In my defense tho, it says in the MT essays that Manwe was less powerful than Melkor originally, but that he became coeval later. 3. it was just for style. 4. I see now that we should not remove it. 5. fair enough, I agree with you. 6. Fair enough 7. I do not understand your objection to my revision. I merely changed the tenses and rearranged the words to flow more naturally. Nothing of the original sense was changed. 8. It is not pure style, as the "So that they will gather again without further specific orders." is not a sentence, and cannot remain as it is. By joining it to the previous one, I lost nothing of the meaning, while fixing the grammatical impossibility. 9. Yay 10. If i removed "trembling" it was a typo on my part. 11. agreed, it should stay as is. 12. the "now" seemed redundant, but it is Tolkien's writing, so we should probably leave it. 13. Sounds good. 14. It is indeed style, so it may remain unchanged. 15. Tolkien marked it with square brackets, but gave no indication why. That is why I moved it to a footnote. 16. it was grammar, as it was not a sentence as it stood. By changing "which" to "this" it became a sentence instead of a clause, and I changed to past tense to match the rest of the narrative. removing "kind of" was purely style however. 17. Yay 18. I do not know why I removed this footnote. 19. I removed it because, while I agree it is important, it makes use of a colloquialism that would not exist in Middle-earth. Status-quo is a literal latin phrase that we use in English as an idiom, and so feels jarring in a Middle-earth writing, much like tolkien describing Quenya as the "Elf-latin." CE-EX-45: May we at least change "small" to "lesser?" if not I suppose I will agree, but it feels very Lost Tales and not very Quenta Silm. CE-SL-15: agreed. CE-EX-50,-51: agreed CE-EX-56: I removed the "new" because they were not new-come from beyond Ea, as they were not the first Elves in the later conception. "removed" rather than "wiped" was indeed pure style. CE-EX-59-60: This is the dsicussion of the phonology of the word for Quendi and Calaquendi and Moriquendi. I was merely suggesting that we move them along with the following linguistic discussion to a seperate section at the end of the chapter. CE-EX-65-End: I will do a draft of that as soon as possible. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 08-29-2017 at 11:08 PM. |
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#25 | ||||||||||||||||
King's Writer
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CE-EX-30: First the easy stuff: Omar. You are right I did forget that I skipped him from 2, So he has to be skipped here as well.
It is interesting that you are so enthusiastic about taking up the description of the mansions of the Valar in chapter 2 but here are so much against including the weapon taking. We have to think what we are dealing with here: A story told by the Valar to the Elves and then handed down probably by many steps through mannish and hobbitish hands. How do we think the Valar would tell the story of this early war? Most probably in a picturesque symbolical way that would be understandable to the Children of Ilúvatar. And in addition, is these description so much of the tone, seeing the late tale of Tuor: Quote:
Quote:
15. As I said the reason is clear, but the way you dealed with it, is rather blocked in my opinion. I am inclined just to remove the square brackets. 16. Okay, I agree on the two change {which}[this], but we will keep ‘kind of’. 18. Oaky, then we will keep it. 19. Yes, I can follow your argument about ‘status quo’. What about changing it to ‘present state’? CE-EX-45: ‘Now a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and Melkor arraigned before all the Valar great and lesser and before the silver chair of Manwë.’ That doesn’t sound right form. Are you sure that is what you would like? CE-EX-56: I agree that the speaker were not ‘new-come’, but both Finwë and Elwë speak about the experience and thoughts of the first Elves, not of their own. Therefore I think the ‘new’ in ‘new-come’ should stand. What follows is a slightly amended draft as proposed by ArcusCalion. I will comment on the changes I introduce in comparison to the one that ArcusCalion below. Overall I am okay with the rearnagement. Quote:
CE-EX-76.1 to CE-EX-76.2: In this part ArcusCalion wanted to replace the footnote about the Mithrim alone. But for me, shifting the footnote from one reference to another doesn’t seem to be the right way. Therefore I shifted the arrangement the inserted paragraphs. Last but not least to the comments that ArcusCalion provided with the draft: CE-EX-58.4: ArcusCalion suggested to remove this footnote completely, and I agree to this. CE-EX-62.5 Footnote to §26: ArcusCalion suggested hesitatingly to remove this footnote completely. I thought first we should keep this one reference to the Gnomes, since the name might be used in later writings. But it is neither in the Hobbit nor in LotR. So I agree to remove the complete footnote. CE-SL-21: ArcusCalion asked why this was deleted. The passage gives a relation between the Valinorean years and the Years of the Sun. The project discussed about this and came to the conclusion that we will not tackle this problem down. This means we simply avoid specifying such a relation. May be I have overdone it here by the complete deletion. We could take: Quote:
Quote:
CE-EX-60.6: ArcusCalion wanted to remove this Footnote. But I think that is unnecessary. Once we are talking about real footnotes this just a repeated number, so that he footnote has two references. Quote:
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ArcusCalion suggested to expand ‘PQ’ as ‘Primitive Quendian’. I agree to this and think we as well should expand ‘Q’ to ‘Quenya’ and ‘S’ to ‘Sindarin’. I have added this to the general changes. ArcusCalion wanted to remove the following footnote as ‘too complex’: Quote:
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The last comment of ArcusCalion was about the shift of the footnote, on which I have already reacted above. Respectfully Findegil |
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#26 | ||||||||||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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CE-EX-30: I see now your point. I had forgotten about the Ulmo description in the Later Tuor. Having read that, I see that you are right.
CE-EX-39: agreed to all CE-EX-45: To me it sounds fine, but I do not object if you think the change too much. CE-EX-56: agreed For this next section I apologize, I had not removed the comments from before I rearranged the text. Therefore many of my comments no longer apply. This is true of all of these: Quote:
That being said, for the rest of your changes to this section I agree. I am curious what the reasoning was for abandoning the relation of the Years of the Trees to the Years of the Sun? I was not aware that the timeline changed. |
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#27 |
King's Writer
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Then main argument was the passage in the Appendices of LotR describing the elvish Yen as 144 years of the sun. And some were in HoME we also have a discussion about the time for the journey of the Noldor from Eldamar to the the North. In that Tolkien made massiv changes that casts some doubt on the relation of 1 to 9.xyz given earlier.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#28 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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aaaah oki gotcha
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#29 | |
Quentingolmo
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I found a brief passage in Quendi and the Eldar: A Note on the Language of the Valar that belongs in this section. I have placed it at the very end of the last paragraph of the Cuivienyarna section.
Quote:
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#30 |
King's Writer
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Even nicer find! Agreed to take it.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#31 | ||||||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
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I have looked through the latest draft sent to me by Arcus and read through the comments in this thread. You guys have already come to a consensus on this, but I think the section on the weaponry of the Valar and their riding to war is too awesome not to include. I also agree with Findegil that in telling the story of the war to the Elves, the Valar would frame it in a way that Elves could understand. In Letters #212: "But the 'habitual' shapes of the Valar, when visible or clothed, were anthropomorphic, because of their intense concern with Elves and Men." A few comments:
1. Quote:
2. Quote:
3. Quote:
4. Quote:
5. Quote:
6. Quote:
Overall, this is an excellent chapter. The number of different sources you guys culled from to create a coherent narrative is really impressive. |
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#32 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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1. This is a British spelling that Tolkien uses frequently in his works. In my draft I usually change them to American spelling (for myself).
2. This does indeed sound better, I will take that suggestion up into my draft. 3. In the chapter "Of the Beginning of Time" Varda makes the older stars before the Valar arrive in Arda. Thus, there are older and newer stars, the first of which she made with the light of Eru. 4. This is true, I am also unsure of the dating. I would assume that they are contemporary, and even if not, it seems more like an instance of Tolkien misremembering something he already wrote, or simply forgetting it. However, in Laws and Customs, he does give general trends in the behavior of the nerei and the nissi that say that the men are more adventerous and practice hunting more often, while the women are more concerned with lore and the home etc, while providing the qualifier that either can do whatever they want equally well. This may be an instance of Tolkien simply using a generality without providing a qualkifier, in which case it would be fine, in my opinion, to simply leave it. 5. Tolkien was trying to say that Melkor was faaar more powerful than any of the individual Valar, so that even in defeat, Manwe was wary of him. In addition, as strange as it may seem in light of Manwe's character, these are Tolkien's words, and we cannot change them simply because we do not agree with them. 6. They have not, but they have no real introduction, as Tolkien gave them none. ANy that we give them would be fabrication on our part. |
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#33 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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1. British spelling rules in Tolkiens texts.
2. Agreed. 3. In all versions Varda made new starts, while older already existed. The light given to Varda by Eru was not used for the making of starts in general, but for the sun in particular. 4. I don’t see how their can be a direct contradiction with such a quoloquial sentence as that from Quendi and Eldar! Otherwise I would say we find contradictions to it in that Essay itself easily. 5. We do normaly not add to our text and specially not without clear indication. Yes, the bolt text is in the original source text as written by JRR Tolkien. The sence with Melkor and Manwe facing each other after so long a time does rather support that fear than deny it. Yes Melkor is shrunken so that he could no longer dount Manwe with his eyes, but none the less does it need all the Valar in assembly to ofer come him and his agents. And what Manwe feared is not told. I don’t think he feared for himself or his safety, he feared for the demage that Melkor cold work on Ea. Manwe was Iluvatars chief instrument against Melkor in the second thema. Therefore I think it was his concern to control Melkor. That said I do nonetheless agree to your opinion that Manwe desperately wants to believe in the repentance of Melkor. 6. No we do not. But Morwe and Nurwe have in all HoMe only this one single scene. So it is either taken them up here, or skipping them for good. Respectfully Findegil |
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#34 | |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Responding to both Findegil and Arcus:
1. OK, I was unaware of this spelling. 3. That's what I assumed, I just wanted to be clear. 4. There are further statements in "Laws and Customs" which I think make it far from collloquial, although it is further confused later in the essay: "There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others which only a nis is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar)." This implies they are capable of doing exactly the same thing, implying no physical differences. For example, olympic track records between men and women are different due to physical differences; I've always imagined this wouldn't be the case between elvish men and women. But then Tolkien states later: "Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals." Here Tolkien state "less difference" and not "no difference", making it more ambiguous. I guess this is just a personal idea of mine: I've always liked the idea that there are no physical differences between elven men and women, and that patriarchal ideas were developed among the elves due to cultural exchanges with humans. However, I don't really have any proof of this. Since Tolkien himself seems to be contradictory w.r.t. whether nissi and neri are identical or just less different when compared to humans, I think it makes sense to just keep the text as is. 5. Yes, I agree with not changing the text simply because we do not agree with it. I just wanted to point it out as I thought it was interesting. Quote:
6. Since this is the only mention of Morwe and Nurwe I propose we keep it as is. Do we plan on making genealogical tables for Volume III? These should be very interesting. This is more of a general question: are we only including texts which we consider to be "historically accurate"? Tolkien describes the story of Imin, Tata and Enel as "an Elvish fairytale or child's tale" and it seems to partly serve the purpose of teaching children how to count. This is an example where I think the lack of a frame actually hurts the story. I would have the teller of this story explicitly state that this is a child's tale to teach children how to count, and this explains why Imin, Tata and Enel disappear from the rest of the history. I'm not suggesting we add back in a frame, I think it was probably the right decision overall, but it makes some of the texts difficult to organize. |
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#35 |
King's Writer
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Genealogical tables: ArcusCalion has included them in his draft for the structure of Volume III. But what we are doing is editing, not creating. We can include what Tolkien provided, corrected by our editing to what we find as canonical and may be with an addition here and there that is deemed canonical. But that does for sure not provide a full table as probably desired by many of us.
On your general question: Yes and no. We included the story of the awakening of the Elves with Imin, Tata and Enel. And yes a frame story would have been nice in this case for the exact reason you mentioned. But on the one hand we decised once against any frame story and on the other we would anyhow not have invented such frame story in a fan-fictional way. In the end the argument was that Imin, Tata and Enel could have send younger members of their house as ambassadors to Valinor (naturaly so as that journey could be called a great risk) and steped probably back when Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe came back ‘enlighted’ and argued successfully for the march. Back to your original question I think that would become more important if we would have to decised on such things as ‘The Hort’ or other even more fantastic poems from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. But luckly Tolkien published these himself. But as example we included the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl because we agreed that the corresponding poem could be considered as a valid ingredient. (So looking in to my drafts of the Second Age material, I see that I did not includ it so fare. Maybe I will correct this before ever I post them.) Respectfully Findegil |
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#36 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
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I was actually thinking of some of the more fantastical elements of the Adventures of Tom Bombadil when bringing up that question. I agree with the conclusion you guys came to: It is entirely within reason that Imin, Tata and Enel sent younger ambassadors. We don't have to bend over backwards for that explanation. Anything that seems like a "valid ingredient" as you put it should be included.
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#37 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Just wanted to let you know that I am now looking at this chapter. My plan is to generate a version of my own first, before looking at Findegil's and ArcusCalion's, just to see how different it ends up being - I think this approach was someone useful for chapters 1 and 2. Then if there are any major divergences we can consider them, and I'll review the details of the version here and see if I have any suggestions.
Sorry again for being so absent of late - the past year or two have been a little bit turbulent in real life, but things look to be settling down a bit. |
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#38 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Thank you for letting us know! Let me just say right off the bat, that since working on this chapter with Fin, I have changed my mind about using the Quendi and the Eldar bits in this chapter, as I think they work much much better in that essay. Therefore, in my own version of this chapter, I have drastically reduced it by cutting out nearly all of those parts.
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#39 | |
Late Istar
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Sorry again I've been taking so long with this. I was going to try to write an all-encompassing post, but perhaps it's better if I just post what I have for now.
As an exercise, I tried constructing a version of this chapter first without reference to the version posted here. However, to keep things simple I did not add anything from LT, MT, etc., and I only indicated the spot where the Cuivenyarna would go. So this is really just a basic text built from LQ and AAm. Note, I am not proposing this as the text for our chapter; it was only intended as a point of comparison. Quote:
- It seems that I relied more heavily on AAm and Findegil on LQ for the basic text. My understanding is that AAm is the later text, so I preferred it in cases where there was nothing else to decide between them, and used LQ only when it gave a fuller account or details that were otherwise missing. I made the following table of correspondences between the section numbers in the two texts, which might be of some use (the .5s indicate part way through a section and the bolded entries indicate the ones I preferred for my draft): LQ : AAm 18 : 30-31 18a : 32-33 19 : 34-36 20 .0 : 37-46 20.5 - 21.0 : 47 21.5 : 48 - 50 22 : 51-52 23 : 53-57 24-27 : 58 29 : 59-62 30 : 63-66 I think it's worth looking at each LQ/AAm section in Findegil's draft and thinking about whether it or the other source is better. - I agree that we should include the "Cuivienyarna", but I'm not completely sure how. I don't like the solution of just plopping it down in the middle here without transition or preamble. It seems clear to me that Tolkien did not intend this to <i>necessarily</i> be the "true" story of the Elves' awakening, especially since he noted that the names Imin, Tata, and Enel likely came from the number-words rather than the other way around. I think we need to somehow indicate that this is a story told among the Elves. - In MT VI, an altered story of the Battle of the Powers is sketched out. I thought about this a bit, but it seems to me that this must be considered a projected change that we cannot implement. I haven't read through Findegil's version enough yet to see if anything was taken from this text, but I'll be continuing to think about this as I read through. - I haven't looked at LT additions yet, though I see that there are some in Findegil's text. I think that in general I'm more hesitant to add in LT material in small bits than is Findegil, but I have no objection in principle, so this is something else I'll be paying attention to as I read through Findegil's version. - I tend to think that the etymological discussion in "Quendi and Eldar" should not be included in the narrative of this chapter, though again, I haven't looked at specifics yet. Mostly I just wanted to post this to start myself going. I hope to carefully read the proposed draft and discussion tomorrow or, at least, within the next few days. Last edited by Aiwendil; 03-05-2019 at 07:26 PM. |
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#40 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Greetings Aiwendil! We look forward to reading your comments!
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