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05-13-2010, 01:05 PM | #1 |
Guardian of the Blind
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Do the Ringwraiths feel pain?
They fall off the fellbeast in the movies and Eowyn stabs the Witch-King and he doesn't seem to move. So do they feel pain? Or is it just another-annoying-thing-flying-at-me?
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05-13-2010, 01:17 PM | #2 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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It seems that they do. At least the Witch-king, the most powerful of them does.
Quote:
Presumably that idea was carried over to the movies. At least I don't recall anything which would conflict with it.
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05-13-2010, 01:32 PM | #3 |
Guardian of the Blind
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Yeah, and when Frodo stabbed him he cried to, but I don't think that was of pain, more of surprise and Elbereth name. I haven't got to that part of LotR yet!
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05-13-2010, 01:51 PM | #4 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Interesting. The Ringwraiths would have to be able to feel 'something,' as if they couldn't, they would not be able to sit on/control their horses/fell beasts, use their real world (ME) swords, or accurate swing a mace at a maiden's head.
That said, the one Aragorn sets ablaze at Weathertop seems more annoyed that he will have to sit in wardrobe for a few hours than if he really felt the fire.
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05-13-2010, 02:02 PM | #5 |
Maundering Mage
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I always figured it was more of a mental pain than an actual physical pain but I haven't contemplated it much either. As Alatar points out if they have not sensory ability how could they wield weapons, ride a horse, etc...
I would think that their pain would be different from that of normal man. How though I'm not exactly sure, like I said I think it would be more of mental anguish than an actual physical pain.
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
05-13-2010, 02:05 PM | #6 |
Gruesome Spectre
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Why not physical? Their bodies were invisible, but they still existed. If fire did not physically affect them, why would they fear it?
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05-13-2010, 02:08 PM | #7 |
Guardian of the Blind
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"Ow! That hurts my eyes!" They don't have to fear it, it might just look weird or annoying.
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05-13-2010, 02:10 PM | #8 |
Gruesome Spectre
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Aragorn made the comment in the FOTR book (which I don't have handy) that the Black Riders 'did not love fire', and 'fear those who wield it'.
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05-13-2010, 02:26 PM | #9 |
Maundering Mage
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Because it could harm them, and as such they would fear it. If your hand feels no pain you would do well to fear cutting it off though you didn't feel the pain of it, correct.
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
05-13-2010, 02:59 PM | #10 |
Guardian of the Blind
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But them that wouldn't answer them on the battlefield. Everyone would be trying to hit them, right? (I would! Even though I cheer them on till the end) Why was it that Eowyn was able to kill the Witch-King?
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05-13-2010, 03:05 PM | #11 | ||
Maundering Mage
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Quote:
Quote:
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
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05-13-2010, 06:14 PM | #12 |
Gruesome Spectre
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But the WK's cry when struck by Merry indicates he felt something, be it physical or spiritual pain.
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05-13-2010, 07:35 PM | #13 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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It does rather come down to a "define pain" issue, doesn't it? For myself, I would say that they do. If they felt no pain, I would also think they would feel no fear, and we do have some evidence that Sauron used the fear of pain to get what he wanted (the torture of Gollum, if nothing else). The Nazgűl might have built up a tolerance to it, whether it's physical or psychological, but I suspect Sauron wouldn't want them to get so used to it that he can no longer use it against them. And they do fear him.
One could also ask if they feel pleasure,but that's another kettle of fish.
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05-13-2010, 08:06 PM | #14 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Quote:
This seems to indicate that while the Nine may or may not have felt any physical pain, they may be sensitive to being uncloaked. Fire does this, and water and boulders might do just as well. The uncloaking may be an inconvenience, or somewhat painful, so they avoid things that could remove their wrappings. I never did figure out where the torched Nazgul got his new cloak between Weathertop and the Ford...
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05-13-2010, 08:07 PM | #15 |
Maundering Mage
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I never said they didn't feel mental or spiritual pain. I think the anguish of his demise was terrible and would cause a cry. I just can't see a stubbed toe causing the W-K to jump up and down cursing at his misfortune.
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
05-13-2010, 08:40 PM | #16 | ||
Guardian of the Blind
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Quote:
They feel pleasure when they kill someone! Quote:
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05-14-2010, 05:09 AM | #17 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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It doesn't, but I am just defining what I am discussing. Jackson's "Terminator-like" Nine aren't exactly Tolkien's.
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05-16-2010, 04:19 PM | #18 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Do the Ringwraiths feel pain?
Only if you talk really mean to them.
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05-16-2010, 05:10 PM | #19 |
Cryptic Aura
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I can see them getting heavily into the "I feel your pain" mode.
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05-16-2010, 10:58 PM | #20 |
Guardian of the Blind
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What?
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05-18-2010, 09:30 AM | #21 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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"Elbereth Gilthoniel," in other words.
But didn't the torched Nazgul, after getting a torch in the head from Aragorn, scream?
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05-18-2010, 02:38 PM | #22 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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They were never good at rejection. Folks with obsessive/compulsive disorders rarely are.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
05-18-2010, 02:58 PM | #23 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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What's amazing is that the Nazgul are driven off Weathertop (or, with their mission accomplished, did they just cede the ground?) by fire. Gandalf is known for pyrotechnics. You'd think that this would give the Grey/White Wizard an edge when facing one or more of the Nine.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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05-18-2010, 05:09 PM | #24 | ||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Quote:
Quote:
Oh. Wait. You're being facetious. Never mind.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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05-19-2010, 11:52 AM | #25 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Quote:
Quote:
If only he could learn that nifty fireball spell of Saruman's...
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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06-27-2010, 02:14 AM | #26 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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At the time of death, I doubt they did generally. They were halfway between life and death, and basically ghosts in corporeal form.
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06-27-2010, 04:38 AM | #27 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Except... see the quote given by Inziladun at #2.
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06-27-2010, 04:44 AM | #28 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Easy to explain; it was a killing blow
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06-27-2010, 07:11 AM | #29 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Oh, I see: you mean they didn't feel pain otherwise.
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06-29-2010, 06:11 PM | #30 |
Haunting Spirit
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Step aside from the argument: What is physical and what is mental? How often is "Stress" accepted as medical cause to illness?
The Nazghul are supposed to be bodiless and thus only scattered by the water, while the real things (horses) carrying them died. Also the shape is the cloak. Frodo sees their spirit form while having the One on, but that's a metaphorical form of physical being, if that makes any sense. So physical is imho not a proper way to address anything that has to do with them. Physical means relating to something exsistent in form of matter. In that definition no wraith could feel physical pain. As people we also feel pain from emotion, which is but also a chemical reaction. As the wraiths don't have glands either, they don't feel that either (and my excurse at the beginning was pointless. Stress is also physical, in terms of chemical reactions in the body.) But they were able to EXIST. Not by the rules of flesh, but yet. Ánything that exists, and is aware of it, fears the possibility of not existing. And anything that is accepted as a danger to this existence is reported as danger - in terms of an unpleasant feeling, a "pain" of sorts.
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06-30-2010, 12:31 AM | #31 | ||||
Wisest of the Noldor
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Look, in principle I deplore the all-purpose "it's magic" excuse some fans use– but in practice I think there is a limit to how much you can cast a supernatural story in terms of our real-world knowledge of science. You certainly can't use a totally materialist world-view, at any rate, since that won't allow for the existence of spirits at all. Quote:
–Anyway there's another aspect to all this, too: Quote:
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The Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Which doesn't really sound "metaphorical" to me at all. I'm not sure what a knee could be a metaphor of, are you? This has all been discussed here before, of course... but I think the idea is that they're not fully immaterial spirits, but rather have a sort of half-life in the "wraith-world". The question of how "real" their bodies are is left ambiguous, though.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. Last edited by Nerwen; 06-30-2010 at 01:09 AM. |
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08-30-2010, 12:19 PM | #32 | |
Wight
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However, CT, in his notes on the essay observed that this left unexplained how the ringwraiths had crossed Greyflood on their journey north (where the only crossing was a dangerous ford - same place where Boromir lost his horse). CT commented that his "father did note that the idea (fear of water) was indeed difficult to sustain." So, while Tolkien did present the idea in some of his writings, he also was uncertain whether the idea fit within the story. |
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09-02-2010, 06:33 AM | #33 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Welcome to the Downs, Puddleglum!
I'm afraid you've just been talking to a spambot.
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09-02-2010, 03:36 PM | #34 |
Gruesome Spectre
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I agree with you.
Lately, they've been getting better at looking legitimate at first glance.
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