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#1 |
Delver in the Deep
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 960
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JRR Tolkien never expected to find Ents, or Fangorn Forest, when he first set out to write the Lord of the Rings. They were one of those things that just popped up along the way, as he plodded along linearly with his characters. But once they had turned up, as explained in Letters of JRR Tolkien, he used the Ents and the Entwives to portray the different attitudes of men and women towards nature.
Men, he contended, were like the Ents content to let nature take its own course. For them the virtue was in appreciating what grew in the wild, as being something of value in itself. Women, however, he saw as great gardeners, who desired to control all things green, and so did the Entwives become. For a long time, I refused to believe there were such differences of temperament between men and women, considering such thinking sexist and possibly demeaning for one side or the other. Now that I am older, and yes even a little wiser, I realise that there are astonishing differences between the genders, not just physically (which I have known for quite a while!). While I am still a believer in universal sufferage, and am proud to come from the first country to give women the vote, I admit that there are certain differences which stem from either physiology or environment. I am a male (as I hope my moniker suggests), and I am most definitely an Ent. Not long after I took up tramping (most of you would call it hiking) I came to realise that the order that gardens try to impose on plants is a shallow mockery of the real order of natural ecosystems, something so complex that it is still not fully understood by humans, let alone replicated. To me, nature is more beautiful, more orderly and more full of life than any garden could ever hope to be. But many women I know (my mother, my grandmother, my girlfriend and her mother as examples) are avid gardeners, who would rather go to a flower show than set foot in a national park. Are you an Ent or an Entwife?
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But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'. |
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#2 |
Haunting Spirit
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I am a woman..and most definitly NOT an entwife..you can't always assume woman are going to think like that.
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#3 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 85
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I'm most certainly an Ent, nature should grow, and be allowed to grow, freely without human interference.
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#4 |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,779
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I think a mix of both is best.
The Entwives were very useful - they brought the science of agriculture to humanity. But of course nature also needs space to flourish. Incidently while I am female I have not the slightest idea of gardening whereas my other half does. And Tolkien was not as rigid in his gender stereotyping as you think - Sam and his father were prodigious gardeners.
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Out went the candle, and we were left darkling |
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 527
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There are great differences between the sexes......but not in gardening!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Some of the most "anal retentive" gardeners I have known have been males. "Square Foot" gardening comes to my mind. This guy wrote a book about gardening in STRAIGHT LINES only! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]. The only people I have met who have tried this have been men. They have loved it, and get all bent out of shape if you try to suggest a few flowers in their perfectly straight vegetable patch.
My father-in-law is a total freak about staking and pinching tomatoes (I prefer to mulch them heavily with straw and let them grow however they wish). He also doesn't like mulch in his vegetable garden. "Too messy!" [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] He prefers to roto-till up and down the straight rows weekly! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] ugh! I have large gardens full of rambling paths, some trees the birds planted, half hardy annuals that have sown themselves, huge drifts of flowers that have made their own boundaries, and if something does poorly, I let it die. (versus trying to "chemical" it back to life) Don't tell me men are free form and women cultivated! Noooooooo!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think it's more of a "do you veiw growing as a tame the wilderness, food production deal", (like the farmers in my area, gah! they are horrible, spray it and kill it if it's not my corn or soybeans!) or "do you veiw gardening as an artistic endeavor", like I do. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] [ February 02, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]
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#6 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: next to the fire keeping warm
Posts: 471
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Oh, both have their places. I'm grateful for the farmers and their straight line form to grow only vegetables. I am impressed with the dedication of gardeners and their prestine flowerbeds of certain plants and landscaping.
I also enjoy woods and forests with their untamed beauty and how nature just takes care of itself. I live in the woods but have potted plants, so what does that make me?
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Just because a person has the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do. |
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#7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 716
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I am a very lazy Ent. Let nature take its course is what I say.
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If Im more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone |
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#8 |
Beholder of the Mists
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now
Posts: 1,419
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I would have to say that I am an ent, because I always let nature take its course (especially in gardening, which I am terrible at)
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#9 |
Animated Skeleton
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Once or twice I tried to garden, but it didn't work out. I forgot about it and the plants died, or the plants died so I forgot about it. That sort of thing is so tedious, and I much prefer to pick wildflowers. I envy people with woods in their backyards, the best I get are a few dandelions (though they are my favorite flower.) I am most definitely an ent, old trees are some of the most facinating things ever, don't you agree?
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The knight looked to her with reproval, and she laughed, and he could not help but join in. |
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#10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Completely lost track, sorry!
Posts: 733
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I always forget to water the plants. Or I'm too lazy to weed. You always find more life in free-growing gardens, the brambles in mine are full of birds and rabbits, and they give good blackberries every autumn. I'd be an Ent.
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"We might succeed in roasting Pippin alive inside." - Frodo. |
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#11 |
Wight
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I would definitely be an Ent (even though I am female.)
I've never be a fan of gardens. I mean, vegetable gardens and such are necessary, but just flower gardens, they just don't look natural. All those different types of flowers wouldn't all grow together like that. I like things left the way they are, growing in the wild. Hope I make some sense....
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Then the heart of Éowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her. "My Preciousss" - the line that started the obsession. |
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#12 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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This opinion topic has been moved to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue the discussion there.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#13 |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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I think that my wife and I must be lapsed Entwives - we would like to keep our garden ordered, but the Entings have put paid to that ... !
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 12-14-2004 at 08:26 PM. |
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#14 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Right over Here!! No Here!! Yoohoo!
Posts: 97
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I would be an Ent. I remember one time I was Hiking through the forest behind our house, and i came to a clearing. No trees in the clearing, just wild grasses. I looked up and saw the blue sky with just a few puffs of clouds in it. Just then this Falcon flew over and let out its call.
After that I have always thought it was better for nature to run its own course.
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Strength without wisdom falls by its own weight. |
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#15 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 102
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My mother and her sister definitely love to garden. They have all kinds of vegetables, flowers, and fruits in their gardens. I'm not sure whether or not I will have one when I get older, because I must say I consider myself more an Ent than an Entwife.
I could sit and watch nature all day. I love going on hikes, walking through fields, sitting under and in trees, watching sunrises and sunsets, running in the fog, gazing at the stars, etc...I guess you pretty much get the idea now. However, even though I do think that nature should be allowed to grow without bounds at times, I do realize the need for mankind to cultivate food. We were set upon this earth and the earth has been given to us. We eat from the land, and in turn, we musn't abuse that privilege or the land. Well, this is turning into a bit of a bizarre rant, so I'll just wrap it up and say that I'm more an Ent than an Entwife, although I understand the point of view of an Entwife!
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'In this phial,' she said, 'is caught the light of Earendil's star....May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out...' - Galadriel 'Now there's an eye-opener and no mistake!' - Samwise Gamgee |
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#16 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Behind you, counting to 3
Posts: 234
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I'd be an Ent; more than content to let nature run its course so to speak.
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"Dic, hospes, Spartae, nos te hic vidisse iacentes dum sanctis patriae legibus obsequimur." |
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#17 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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im like some people somewhere ion bettween but mostl;y an ent. i think nature would be more bueatiful if we sit back and watch it grow but still add things for are liking because it makes the world more bueatiful tohave a little bit of everthing and then nature. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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We pillage and plunder, we rifle and loot, Drink up me hearties, Yo Ho. the looniest site in the world!!! |
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#18 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 527
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I'm an entish entwife. When nature runs it's course, there seems to be lots of poison ivy, thistles, pig weed, brambles! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] I don't like too much "order" in the garden though.
[ February 03, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]
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#19 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
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Ent. definitely an Ent. I love being surrounded by foliage, and the feeling I get from climbing in a tree and peering out from the sea of branches and leaves is just devine. I will admit that the Entwives had a point, that there needs to be a strong hand shaping a garden, but it seemed to me they had it in mind that all of nature should be organised to fit their use. Orderly gardens are one thing, and I'll even try to tolerate orchards, though I get the distict impression that the trees are just humoring the human gardners sometimes.
HmmHooom-Hom. Definitly Entish. |
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#20 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Grey Havens
Posts: 29
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Sorry, I am not a big fan of generalizations to begin with. But there might be something there. Perhaps when I'm older I'll see it too. As for the original question, hmmm... I don't know. On one hand, I am an ent- I let things happen, instead of making them happen. I am fascinated by nature and the way it evolves without human interference. I respect nature. But I'm also an entwife in that I believe in using the 'free will' we were blessed with, to cultivate the mind, for the progress of humanity. I am all for using the tools we were given to make our world a better one. But I don’t see these things having anything to do with gender... I think I've strayed far beyond gardening here, sorry. If I have to label myself, perhaps I am a passive-aggressive Balrogwife. Heheehee... I don't know. I need to consult my therapist. [ February 04, 2003: Message edited by: propagandalf ]
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if you don't ask me out to dinner i don't eat. -radiohead |
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#21 |
Pile O'Bones
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I'm most certainly an Ent, nature should grow, and be allowed to grow, freely without human interference. --------------------------------------- Jurion Sorry, i dont really know how to quote. I am most certainly an Ent (although I'm female). When I read what Jurion wrote. The first thing that popped in my mind was "Dat is een Nederlander" and, jazeker, you are one. I would like to say something about that. "Nature should be allowed to grow without human interference" Where would humans be without "interfering". We wouldn't have wood to build out houses, transportation would take a lot longer because there wouldnt be many roads, where would we grow our crops if we couldn't chop down woodland to do so????? All things you have to think about. We shouldn't interfere (spelling?????) too much, but it is just impossible to interfere not at all. So, I guess I'm a little Entwife and Ent, though i'd much rather go hiking for a day then gardening! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] |
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#22 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Right over Here!! No Here!! Yoohoo!
Posts: 97
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All of us Ents should remember that we still like our hamburgers, TV and cars.
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Strength without wisdom falls by its own weight. |
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#23 | |
Delver in the Deep
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 960
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True, we are all humans (please let me make at least this generalisation!), and not Ents or Entwives. They seem to have not only had no desire for technology, but also no need for it. They didn't even need clothes!
Thanks to all, it's been interesting to see people post their own personal views, especially when they also point out if they are male or female to test the theory! I'd have to say that human history could have done with a few more Ents than Entwives. I'm pretty sure I know which category Tolkien placed himself in (maybe the reason why Entwives are portrayed less favourably, or why he had them destroyed!). Quote:
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But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'. |
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#24 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 527
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Hmmmm, regrowth is terrible, I agree! We have 15 acres of farmland. I have converted a good two or three acres of "no till corn stubble" into gardens Sam Gamgee would enjoy. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] (I've planted over 100 trees, so the ents are pleased!) Keeping the weeds out is an EXTREME challenge, because the farm land was LOADED with weed seeds! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] But down by the creek, which is uncultivated and full of old trees,the native plants (some would call these weeds) grow so high and dense in the summer, you "Can Not Pass!" [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
The best time (in Indiana) to "walk the land", is in the dead of winter. The weeds have died back, the mosquitos gone, you can even walk on the frozen creek on very cold days! This is my favorite, it's like having a beautiful new (slippery!) path made for you. (The birds plant poisen ivy everywhere though [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ) There must be some Entwife, (IMO) or you will not be able to walk anywhere! I don't see the entwives as "destroyers" of the natural order, more like gentle cultivators, trying to adapt the natural world so that people can interact with it, and enjoy it more. I thought Saruman and his "industrialzation machinery" were the evil villians of the natural way of the Ents. I don't think Indiana (my state) has hardly any original prairie left, so I can only imagine the pristine beauty! I like a beautiful garden that highlights the beauty of the natural world, yet allows me the space to bring my iced tea, cats, chaise lounge, and windchimes on a lovely summer day. It seems like hobbits had the most entwife in them. They loved growing things, and well ordered gardens! Perhaps there was a little EW blood in there! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [ February 05, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]
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#25 |
Shadowed Prince
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,343
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i am too short to be either... im either a dwarf or a hobbit!
seriously, im not too sure what i am... i like to let nature run its own course, and (though ive nevwer seen them) love open savannas and rainforests. this would classify me as an ent. but (though i am male) i also appreciate order, and as the greatest species on earth (since the elves went west) we should have the power and be allowed to run it. have you noticed how the ents semmed to be into animals too? they know all the "ancient lists" with all the animals names on them. so they appreciate animals. and so do i, so i think im more of an ent than an entwife. unless they like animals too. and what exactly happened to them? where did they go? |
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#26 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 12-14-2004 at 08:27 PM. Reason: Tidying ... so that makes me an Entwife, right? |
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#27 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 31
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I am male, so I am probably an Ent (there aren't too many feminie qualities about me) I used to garden but got tired of deer and groundhogs haveing a feast there. I like everything chaotic (providing I have a sword or machine gun handy (which i don't often)).
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#28 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 347
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#29 |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
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Thanks for exhuming this thread, Laurinquė! Nice topic, and some interesting answers there.
For personal reasons, I was very amused when I saw the thread title. As at least the more regular WW players among you have gathered by now, I'm male despite my misleading screen name, and a typical Ent, plus married to a typical Entwife*. It's not that I can't appreciate a beautiful garden, but I'll prefer a hike in the woods to an afternoon of gardening anytime, and shopping tours in gardening centers bore me to death; quite the opposite for her. A few years ago, when we were talking about this difference in character between us, I quoted Treebeard's song to her, and 'Ent' and 'Entwife' have since become our standing metaphors for it. But I also have to agree with Lalaith that the difference runs across genders. It was a male friend of my wife, and a passionate gardener, who coined the winged word 'Nature is hideous' (nowadays quoted whenever our dogs have done something naughty or something's gone bad in the fridge), and we also have a female friend who's at least as Entish in this respect as me. *On second thought, maybe not quite as typical, since tgwbs brought up the point that Ents were into animals too. At the moment, the kelvar we keep in our garden (two Ouessant sheep, four runner ducks and a varying number of chicken) have reduced the olvar to a point where it doesn't really look much like a garden anymore; Mrs Pitch doesn't seem to mind that a lot, whereas I keep telling her we should reduce the animal population a bit, at least until the grass has had a chance to grow back, if it ever will...
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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#30 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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Hoommmmmmm......
I am androgynous, I'm afraid. I'm a female who was raised like a male (my mother found it more convenient that way, because there were three kids born in just over three years, the first two were boys, and as I was last, it was easiest just to treat me like one of the boys. No wonder I'm in therapy for things my mother did...). And as I am now a grown woman who never "learned her place" properly (I shake hands like a guy, I speak my mind like a guy, I blow my top like a guy [meaning I'll go for a punch in the nose over the traditionally feminine versions of venting anger -- though I don't do that these days ![]()
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. John Stewart Mill |
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#31 |
The Werewolf's Companion
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Moon
Posts: 3,021
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Heh. I'm more of an Entwife. I love hiking, but prefer paths that non-chaotic. Actually, my favorite hiking trails are over rock fields and paths that were made to be easy to walk over. Not much of an Ent.
![]() I don't like gardening simply because I don't like getting dirty - especially when you get dirt under your nails and can't get it out. ![]() ![]()
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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night. Double Fenris
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#32 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,360
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What is the Entish for "heshe"?
Becaue that's what I think I am. I prefer hiking to gardening, but that's not the point. Sometimes I like to take things into hand, make them the way I want them to be. But sometimes I just let them go the way they are going. Some people say I'm too passive (they should say too lazy...), and others say I have to rule the world to be satisfied with how it works.
Just as a side note, they say that if you don't fit in with the world, the wise thing to do is to adapt to the world. Yet some people adapt the world to themselves, thus driving the evolution of knowledge and technology. Our world is here because stubborn, stupid people. Now where was I going with that? Oh yeah. Entwives win! ![]() But I still am probably more of an Ent...
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#33 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
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Either way, in answer to your question, I like both. I feel both have a beauty. It's like choosing between a real landscape and an abstract painting. Certainly you will offend the artist by saying you prefer the former! But art, I feel, is both a manifestation and an imitation of nature, and that certainly includes gardening!
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"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" Tom Bombadil |
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#34 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
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"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" Tom Bombadil |
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#35 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,360
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However, I always thought that the stereotype was that men were the ones that cared about providing food for the family. They went to get money, they worked on the fields... Though gardens are more "womanly/ladylike" than fields.... I don't know. Often you even have conflcting stereotypes.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#36 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
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"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" Tom Bombadil |
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#37 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,360
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![]() Or at least that's how I see it. In different places in ME it would be different. In the Shire there's enough food so that men tend to the gardens. In Gondor - men are needed to fight, so it's the women's job. In places like Rivendell we don't even know where the food comes from. It all depends. I might view it a certain way because I have a very confused / mixed-cultured understanding of all this. Someone else, who read slightly different books or spoke to different people, might see it as the opposite.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#38 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
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"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" Tom Bombadil |
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#39 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,360
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Though still, it's hard for me to imagine a rural area with women ploughing the fields while the men di up turnips in the back yard. ![]() (Of course during harsh times like war women would work in the fields - because the men were in the army. But in times of peace.........)
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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