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#1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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One of the things I noticed right from the start in this chapter is the role that darkness plays - that, and the constant presence of the characteristic smell. Both elements are described several times, showing the increasing proximity of danger for Frodo and Sam. However, even had they known the nature of the danger, they had no choice but to go on. Gollum’s absence leaves them without any orientation, but their strength and heroism are shown, all the more impressive because of the bleakness of their situation.
They find help in the objects they carry with them – Galadriel’s phial, the sword Sting, and the staff given by Faramir. It is used rather differently than intended here, and Sam’s staff at least ends up breaking, but it also saves his life. Having been more aware of it and its function through our discussion this time, I have resolved to keep my eyes open for any mention of Frodo's staff in the coming chapters. Did anyone else notice that Galadriel’s name seems to daunt Shelob more than Eärendil’s does? And Sting is definitely more effective, shown by the cutting of the web, than Sam’s “normal” sword. Shelob is described and her history told – what do you find most interesting or scary about her? Gollum’s treachery is shown by his separation of the two hobbits through his attack on Sam. He has succeeded in finding a way to keep the letter of his promise in letting Shelob kill Frodo, while he takes care of Sam. This is definitely one of the most exciting chapters of the book, full of action, and those who found the Frodo and Sam plotline boring earlier are sure to have rejoined us by now. Tell us what you think of the descriptions, characters, and happenings!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#2 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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In Esty's considered opinion,
Shelob and all her minions are daunted the more by the Lady of yore than the brightest star in the heavens! Sorry, couldn't help myself. ![]() Anyway, one thing that really stood out to me was how Sam praised Frodo for his heroic act of chasing Shelob away, saying that it would go down in song. Little did he know that his own actions in the following moments would completely overshadow those of Master Frodo! |
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#3 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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To be dead honest, I was terrified going into this chapter (although, bad me, I haven't read it in some two years or so). I've always loved Tolkien's chapter titles, but this one creeped me out. Given that I'd read The Hobbit a very short time before first reading the LotR, I remembered Bilbo calling the Mirkwood spiders "lazy lobs". That was my first hint as to the contents. Given Gollum's mentions of "she", I took an educated guess. And my arachnophobic brother's dire warnings of "you're going to absolutely hate this chapter" started to clue me in that I was right.
Did anybody else know what this chapter was about before ever reading it?
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#4 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: At the abysmal Abyss Mall.
Posts: 276
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The First time I remember hearing this chapter I had some susspicion what I was getting into, and like your arachnophobic brother said, Feanor, I wasn't going to like it.
The First time my father read The Lord of the Rings to me we got as far as this chapter before I was to scared for him to continue reading it (keep in mind I was about 6yrs old at the time). Three years later when he read it to my brother and I again one of the three things I remember was that there was a HUGE-AND-TERRIFYING-SPIDER. To my 9yr old self though Shelob wasn't as bad as I remembered, and while Shelob still creeps me out (I really do hate spiders) this chapter has since become one of my favorites. Unfortunately I haven't read this chapter recently enough to really discuss it, but I'm now interested in this 'Galadriel's v. Eärendil’s' name thing that Estelyn mentions so don't be surprised if I reread and come back to speak further.
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A signature always reveals a man's character - and sometimes even his name ~Evan Esar. Pan for Everyone!
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
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This chapter freaked me out as well. I have re-read it so often and yet...Each time I come to this chapter I take a few precautions. First of all I try not to read it by night. Second of all I try to read it when I am NOT Home alone. Third of all, I make sure I have some re-assuring music at hand.
On thing that makes this chapter creepy apart from the description of Shelob is the way the tension builds. Also when Sam and Frodo make it through Shelob's lair you think they are safe. But no, Shelob catches them outside. That fact always catches me offguard and I don't like it.
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#6 | ||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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I've never been scared of spiders, and I've been close to some very hairy tarantulas and large tropical jumping spiders, but when I first read the books I found this a truly frightening chapter. I think there is definitely something of the horror film conveyed here; the overly large, human eating bug is a well used motif in horror and sci-fi. I think it resonates with our basic fears that in general spiders and insects are not wholly safe creatures, and are to be avoided. Even if we don't have that fear, the idea of a huge, ravenous, murderous creature who only desires to kill us is one that will give us a thrill of fear.
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Gordon's alive!
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#7 | |||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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‘This thing all things devours...’
I suppose Shelob & what she symbolises has been discussed so often that the subject is almost redundant. She is the ‘last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world’. In fact, in the early drafts Shelob was called ‘Ungoliant’. Like Ungoliant she consumes light itself & vomits out darkness. In fact, it seems it is not only light, but time, sound & memory that she eats. Quote:
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As to the Star-glass itself, I was struck by a few things: In the darkness of Shelob’s Lair Sam first thinks of the Barrow & Tom Bombadil, & wishes Tom was nearby. It is at this point that he recalls Galadriel’s Gift to Frodo. I wonder if Tom played some part in this remembrance of the Golden Wood. Its odd that Sam ‘invokes’ Tom & then suddenly remembers the one thing that can aid himself & his Master - the Star-glass. This makes me wonder about the ‘relationship’ of Tom & Galadriel. Is it simply a matter of Sam thinking of one supernatural helper & being reminded of another, or is there something more going on? Another couple of passages that got me thinking: Quote:
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This ‘Light’ is powerfully symbolic - the Light itself is of ‘Heavenly’ or Divine origin, but it has been given physical form by a woman & I can’t help wondering if this is one of those ‘consciously so in the revision’ moments Tolkien mentioned in his letter. |
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#8 | |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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So it seems to me that it's not wishing for Tom, so much as wishing. Tom would have no power in Shelob's Lair; his land is far away. But Galadriel's gift of the light of the star of Earendil, that does have power in Shelob's Lair. I think that Tolkien uses the logic of the story here - what would Sam be reminded of? Looking at his sword, he'd be reminded of the similarly black and evil place where the sword came from. Sam being the simple hobbit he is, he'd think of Tom, and being hopeful against all reason, or barring hope, being stubborn in the face of overwhelming adversity, he'd wish for the best good he could think of at the moment. Within the logic of the story, Manwe's eye is always watching, and Varda's ear is always listening, and they know as well as does Elrond that the quest's hope stands upon a knife-edge, and Varda hears Sam's wish for the best good, and supplies to his mind that which would really be the best good right there right then. Of course, very little of that is in the text, but all of it, or something like it, was likely in Tolkien's mind. I could be all wet, but maybe this is how Tolkien got from the dire threat of Shelob and the sword in Sam's hand, to the light of the phial of Galadriel. Just a guess. |
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#9 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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An interesting connection just occured to me regarding Frodo's cry as he holds up the Star-glass:
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Frodo speaks the words that would, millenia later & in another language, inspire Tolkien himself to 'rediscover' England's lost mythology! I don't know if this was another 'consciously so in the revision' moment, but certainly the connection between the 'light' which sprang into being in Tolkien's mind at his discovery of those words & the Light which sprang from the Starglass in Frodo's hand is both interesting &, to me, quite moving. |
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#10 |
Dead Serious
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I love this chapter! After most of Book IV, it is a chapter of ACTION! Yes, there is lots of movement in the previous chapters, certainly there is drama and danger, but this is the first chapter that had what one can see turned into an action sequence in a movie. This chapter is very immediate and real, I find, as a result. You are a lot closer as Sam and Frodo battle Gollum and Shelob than as they wander through Ithilien.
We get to see Sam at his most heroic in this chapter, fighting Gollum and then rushing- right at the end of the chapter, to aid his master who he has been separated from. We thus end the chapter on a suspenseful, adrenaline-filled note. I also like the chapter for its greater Elvish overtones. One of the things I love about The Lord of the Rings is the Elvish language. I'm too lazy and non-inclined to learn it, but I love reading it. For the first and only time in Book IV, we get a touch of Elvish: Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima! I love that line! We also get a much greater touch the mysterious/magical in this chapter, mainly through the vial, but also through the mythic-like Shelob, who feels like a direct transplant from the Lay of Leithian. The first time I read this chapter, I couldn't wait to move on and see Sam rescue Frodo. Boy was I in for a surprise!
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#11 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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There will be a slight delay in the opening of the next chapter by chapter discussion thread (for "The Choices of Master Samwise"). Please continue discussing the current chapter, "Shelob's Lair," or review any of the previous chapter discussions.
Thanks for your patience! Estelyn will return shortly with the new thread introduction. Bęthberry
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#12 | ||
Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,480
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Though we as readers learn not only what it is lurking in those dark tunnels, but some important facts regarding that presence, Frodo and Sam discover the true shape of Shelob only very late in the chapter. And although their horror is tangible, they could not describe accurately what it was that stalked them until the last few pages…it was up until then simply something foul and menacing, something with many eyes.
Having read about Ungoliant fairly recently in the Silm. the similar attributes of a ‘black hole’ sort of darkness and gluttony ascribed to both was striking. But many thanks to davem for pointing out the dissimilarity regarding the two in their reaction to the light of Silmarils. It is something to mull over along with the cries of the Elves and other references to history. But another curious thing to me was that Tolkien writes that Sméagol/Gollum had bowed down and worshipped Shelob. I understand why Gollum might be mentioned but why is Sméagol named here? Is this a hint about his basic nature? Quote:
Another facet that adds to the disturbing mood of the chapter is the “fey mood” Sam feels his master is in, after freeing himself of the tunnel. Sam does seem the only grounded thing in the whole surreal episode, and by the end he also seems so dreadfully alone. Quote:
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#13 | |||
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
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This chapter is full of suspense - the description of the tunnel is incredibly creepy and full of foreboding. The utter darkness and the stench are something which of course couldn't be conveyed to the film and I think the scene is much more effectful in the book. It reminds me somehow of a "ghost-train" or "tunnel of horror" at a fun fair, especially the unseen things brushing their heads and hands in the dark.
I note that in the tunnel, Frodo is the one who is more resolute and couragious. Quote:
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Btw It took me a heck of a time to find out what "ancalima" means! Now I know more, and Davem's post about this is fascinating! Apparently Sting shines blue also in Shelob's presence - not only that of orcs! Quote:
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Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat! Last edited by Guinevere; 05-21-2005 at 02:26 PM. Reason: found the translation of a word now |
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#14 |
Haunting Spirit
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One thing that strikes me is the major shift that occurs during this chapter. It begins with "Gollum in front and the hobbits now side by side," but finishes with Sam running after him having "forgotten everything else but the red hot fury in his brain and the desire to kill Gollum." This simple shift between just these two paragraphs highlights the changes that almost all the separated characters are experiencing in their respective situations. Théoden has talked with Ghan-buri-Ghan and is preparing to ride to the Pelennor, Faramir's troops are retreating, and Aragorn is at Pelargir. The shift in Frodo and Sam's events is brought about by their characteristically distinct, but equally noteworthy, actions, which also ties in to that first paragraph.
It would be interesting to know, from anyone better-versed than me in older and classical literature, if before Tolkien the spider was a common element and symbol of writing for secrecy, evil, and dread. It certainly is now, and my question is if Shelob and Ungoliant helped to spurn the idea. I also need to say that I love the idea that for most of their journey, Frodo and Sam's greatest fear and danger has been being seen, and here, where it at first seems to them that they will be able to finally be able to creep unnoticed through the dark, the monster appears in the form of "the dreadful stare of those baleful...monstrous and abominable eyes."
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I sit beside the fire and think of people long ago, And people who will see a world that I shall never know. |
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#15 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Could someone explain this?
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Fenris Wolf: WW LXXX. |
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#16 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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#17 | ||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Gordon's alive!
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#18 | |||||
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,547
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Expanding on what Hilde said here:
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The final point I would like to make concerns Gollum's plan. Compare these two quotes, only a paragraph apart from each other: Quote:
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Oh, yes, and what a lovely note to end the chapter on: "He was too late. So far Gollum's plot had succeeded." |
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#19 |
Dead Serious
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Rereading this chapter, the thing that struck me that hadn't struck ne before was the fact that the spawn of Ungoliant facing off against a remnant of the Light of the Trees can hardly have been a coincidence, but how much was it planned? This FEELS like the whole purpose of including the Phial in the story, but which story element came first? Memory is fallible and I haven't looked it up, but I want to say the Phial came first.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#20 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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She was certainly around while the Trees were alive, and I don't think it's implausible that she could have thought the pass of Cirith Ungol was the route Frodo would be obliged to take into Mordor, and also have known about Shelob. After all, it seems Shelob had once been in Mirkwood, as the book mentions that the Spiders encountered by Bilbo and the Dwarves were her spawn. A lesser light of the Trees to fight a diminished version of Ungoliant. How apt!
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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