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#1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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After the plodding pace of the last chapter, this one picks up considerably, offering both excitement and suspense as well as memorable dialogue. Leaving Ithilien means that the last refuge is gone, symbolized by the renewed weight of the ring. What light there is is described as very obviously evil, and nature is despoiled – the water is unwholesome, and even flowers are “beautiful yet horrible of shape”. I found the descriptions very evocative – how did they affect you? What do you make of the statement that the road glowed faintly?
Frodo suffers most in this environment, though Gollum also feels a fear that drives him to hurry them along. Sam seems the only one who keeps his head; I find his unwilling alliance with Gollum on going as fast as possible a bit amusing. Tolkien builds up the suspense with his statement that “it was too late”, making the reader expect that the three will be discovered. The passage which tells of the troops leaving Minas Morgul has a number of interesting details to discuss – the rumbling of the earth, for example, connects to the previous chapter. I remember a previous discussion some time ago on the phrase “but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth” – where do you think these troops went, and were the bulk of them elsewhere, since the fortress seems to have nearly emptied? Frodo thinks of Faramir and Osgiliath upon seeing them. We see Frodo’s strength in this chapter; he does not yield to the temptation to put on the ring. His exercise of his own will reminds of the similar experience on Amon Hen. However, we also see his weakness and his need for help, as he almost enters the gate to Minas Morgul. He finds help in Galadriel’s phial as well – I had forgotten that it was spoken of here! His thoughts on having to do what he had to do, whether or not anyone would ever know about it afterwards, are inspiring. The hobbits’ achievement of climbing the stairs, long and steep, is especially impressive if we remember that hobbits didn’t even like to sleep higher than ground level! The most memorable part of the chapter is Sam and Frodo’s conversation on living in adventure stories. I won’t go into detail on that, as I expect it will generate a good discussion without any help from me! At the end of the chapter we have one of those rare moments when we see a positive reaction from Gollum, this time foiled by Sam’s “sneak” comment. I wonder – that doesn’t sound so offensive to me; does anyone know if the word used to have a more negative connotation? Frodo considers the agreement with Gollum over at this point. He has fulfilled his promise to get them in. What do you think would have happened had Gollum left them now? Would they have been in less danger or more?
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#2 |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
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Of Sauron's hosts, most were of course being sent to their eventual destruction at the Pelennor Fields, via Faramir and the Rammas; perhaps some were off north to reinforce Dol Guldur, or strengthen the attack on Erebor? One, I think, was attacking Angbor of Lamedon (or was that the Corsairs? In any case, it was rather later.)
I too had forgotten about the Phial at this point. But now I see it again, I remember being filled with hope at remembering the beauty of Lothlorien in the midst of the doom and darkness on my first reading. It's interesting that the flowers still retain an unnatural loveliness. Is this supposed to bring to mind the fair guise of Annatar? The fair promise of immortality made to the nine kings? Or just the former glory of Minas Ithil? I always wonder about Gollum's potential redemption. Had he changed his intent, could he have guided them into Mordor on some other, secret way, or would they have had to venture into Shelob's lair and the orc-tower in any case?
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Frodo is defiant even without hope, but something else is going on: [QUOTEMaybe it was the Ring that called to the Wraith-lord, and for a moment he was troubled, sensing some other power within his valley. ...Frodo waited, like a bird at the approach of a snake, unable to move. And as he waited, he felt, more urgent than ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring. But great as the pressure was, he felt no inclination now to yield to it. He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king--not yet.[/QUOTE] ‘He had not the power to face the Morgul King - not yet.’ What the hell does that mean? That soon, or at some point, he [would have the power to face him? Wouldn’t that require him to have claimed the Ring for his own? Frodo ‘knew’ that ‘he had not this power yet’. So this is not Tolkien’s comment on Frodo’s state & the danger he faced, it is Frodo’s own realisation, & perhaps here again we see the temptation to claim the Ring growing on him, see his final ‘fall’ coming. This makes it difficult to argue that at the last Frodo does not fully & consciously claim the Ring... Then again, we see the inner conflict - the Ring striving against Frodo’s own will: Quote:
And Frodo? Victor or Victim. Perhaps he just decides that either alternative is too much of a ‘label’ & just like the humble soul he is, he decides all he can do is his ‘job’: Quote:
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But what of Gollum in all this? Quote:
Once again Tolkien reiterates his ‘message’ about Frodo’s mental state: Quote:
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Finally, & most tragically, we return to Gollum: Quote:
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The ‘paths’ of all three of them are now ‘set’. All have chosen the Road they will take, two of them, Gollum & Sam, in ‘hope’ - of the Ring, & of a morning’s gardening repectively, Frodo in hopelessness, yet all three will plod on to the unknown end. Its funny, though, that they all achieve their ‘destinations’ - Gollum does get his Precious, Sam does get back to his garden, while Frodo, who struggles on towards (what he believes will be) failure & the loss of hope, gets just that. |
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#4 | ||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Firstly, following on from what davem says about Gollum, just a few paragraphs earlier, before Sam goes to sleep, he says:
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Then there's something else about these words, they foreshadow what is to come, they even foreshadow all our discussions! I wonder how many readers have talked about whether Gollum is a hero or a villain? Now onto my favourite subject, osanwe. ![]() Quote:
I think the WK has somehow locked on to the 'something amiss' he senses. He wants the Ring to reveal itself and senses it. Though this time, Frodo exercises Unwill and instead of submitting his thought to the WK, he closes his mind, or literally, as it says in the quote, he turns aside his thought. So, the phial of Galadriel must include something of the powers of osanwe, which is entirely possible. It is made of the Light of Earendil caught in the waters from her fountain, and Galadriel's Ring is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, representing water. If indeed, as I've posted on before, the Three Rings were made for purposes to do with osanwe, then could this water also be invested with some of that power?
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#5 | |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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Having read the Letters, we know that the Battle of the Pelennor fields is about to take place; so we know that this army is marching towards Osgiliath and Minas Tirith. Here we see Gandalf's "folly" come to fruition, for the Eye has been distracted, barely, from Frodo, looking to the marshalling forces of the Free Peoples; this is also because Aragorn has sacrificially looked into the palantir, which Saruman lost through the folly of Wormtongue, which occurred because the Hobbits had roused the Ents, which happened because Saruman's orcs hunted for the Fellowship. The seeds of the downfall of Sauron and Saruman was in themselves all along; the Fellowship only had to take courage and do what was theirs to do; no small task! I don't think "sneak", as a word, is the real issue. It's what lies beneath the words: Sam's suspicion that Gollum has been up to no good; which at the moment Sam said it, was entirely wrong; yet it wrankles Gollum because, for days now, except for this one rare moment of almost redemption, Gollum has indeed been up to the most traitorious of no good. If Gollum had left them at the point suggested, Frodo and Sam would not have made it into Mordor, I think. They did not know the way. That's all I have time for tonight. Maybe I can take a stab at more of these queries later. |
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#6 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
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Of all the scary places in this book MInas Morgul is the scariest place in ME. At least I have found this place the most terrifying.
However, my favourite part of the chapter is the description of Gollum. Quote:
Frodo is now rapidly changing. His personality is becoming more scyzophrenic like that of Gollum. Quote:
So half his personality is still sane whereas the other side is reaching the edge of sanity. I hope this makes sense
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#7 | ||
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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#8 | |
Dead Serious
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Minas Morgul does not seem to be the most evil place in The Lord of the Rings, from my point of view. Mordor seems entirely more evil and dangerous, but in this chapter on Minas Morgul, the evil seems present in a way that is not, to me, as immediate as anywhere else in the book. When Frodo and Sam are in Mordor, I felt their fear of capture, their loathing of the evil land, but although I saw its effects on them, I never really felt the evil of the place. It was more like a big desert than a place where evil was omnipresent. But in this account of Minas Morgul, the evil felt very near to me. The possibility that the side of evil might capture, thwart, or end Frodo and Sam seemed a lot more real to me. The element of immediate danger presented by Shelob and the orks only a couple chapters later is not present, but the whole chapter leads me to feel that the entire evil of Minas Morgul was there to search them out, and could very well have done so, had things gone only a little different. But I didn't feel this in Mordor. I knew Mordor was hostile. I knew Mordor was evil. But I didn't get the sense that Mordor was bearing down on Frodo and Sam, that it was actively seeking them out. Was this because Mordor was distracted by the Army of the West? Or is it that as the reader, once I saw Frodo and Sam safe of Cirith Ungol, I knew that they would make it to Mt. Doom?
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#9 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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Your post, Formendacil, has helped shape a distinction for me between Minas Morgul and Mordor.
Minas Morgul's evil is eerie. It is hair-raised-on-the-nape-of-the-neck evil. All living things, or those things that normally are associated with life, such as (especially) flowers and water, as well as roads and towers, are here associated with corruption, decay, and undeadness. Mordor is a destroyed land. Life is gone. It's a blasted, wasted desert. The feeling associated with this is not the thrill of the unnatural undead, but of drought and despair; the absence of life. |
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#10 | |
Dead Serious
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If Mordor is a destroyed land, is Imlad Morgul a land in the process of being destroyed? In Mordor, evil is a given thing, it has totally taken over, to the point that is taken for granted. Is the more active feeling of evil that I associate with Minas Morgul perhaps a sign that evil there has to be more active, because it has not yet totally subdued the land? Mordor seems to have been a less-than-attractive land even before Sauron set up shop, and he's had an age and a half to make it evil, whereas the Witchking has only been in Minas Morgul for a millennium or so. And perhaps there is more inherent resistance to evil in the "bones" of old Minas Ithil. We know that the land remembers the Elves long after they leave. Could a similar thing happen with the Numenorians?
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#11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
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I find Minas Morgul terrifying because it is Frodo and Sam's first real encounter with a land that is evil to its very core. The dead marshes have been corrupted and the land before the Black Gate has been laid to waste but now the hobbits are actually entering the worst place in ME.
Maybe Minas Morgul is scarier for me because it has a sense of being alive. Whereas Mordor is simply a dead land with evil creatures roaming through it the Morgul vale has a deadly river flowing through it and it is inhabited by the witch king who is the most powerful after Sauron himself. Besides the witchking is half alive compared to Sauron who doesn't even seem to have a physical form. Besides the morgul vale is another entrance to Mordor and it seems that of all the places in that black land the entrances are the places that are under the heaviest security.
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#12 | |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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I also think that length of time, as you've suggested, has a part to play. |
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#13 |
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,547
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The thing that really caught my eye about this chapter was the flowers, which I have never really noticed before. In many ways they seem to be metaphorical for Minas Morgul itself. It seems that once they may have been fair and beautiful, though now they are horrible of shape, giving forth a sickening smell. This is like to Minas Morgul, once the fair Minas Ithil and now sunken into decay and evil. Both also give off a sort of luminous light - light that illuminates nothing. Light, another symbol of 'good,' has also been perverted in this sense. No longer is it good and beautiful, but eerie and threatening.
Interesting also how the flowers are white. In most other instances that I can think of, white is the color of good: Gandalf the White (the White Rider, etc), Minas Tirith the White City, the White Tree. The exception that I can think of is Saruman and his White Hand, though Saruman becomes no longer white, and even the symbolic hand is cast down by the Ents. So too, the white flowers are no longer pure, but horrible and demented. |
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#14 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
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It just shows that appearances can be deceiving. Just like Saruman clothing himself in white. That was an illusion too, and it would have been much more appropriate for Saruman to dress in black.
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#15 | |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
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I don't know about anyone else, but sometimes I find the super-evil, black-clad villain to get very old. A "color reversal" I liked was in Terry Goodkind's Wizard's First Rule, in which the chief baddie -- not a nice guy at all -- lived in a beautiful palace in a pleasant land, was very handsome, and happened to fancy wearing white robes. In Tolkien's works, evil is associated with darkness -- but then, if it were not for darkness, we could not see the stars. This may just be a random musing, but I just wondered whether there is a difference in Tolkien between blackness and darkness. The elvish mor seems to be used interchangeably to mean black or dark. But the people/places who hold this title as part of their names range from the Moriquendi to Morwen to Moria to Morgoth. The Moriquendi never beheld the Two Trees, which might be considered a sorrow to the Calaquendi. Yet these "Dark Elves" are not evil. Morwen was named thus for her dark hair -- she was not evil either. But Moria is a dark and evil place, and we all know how unpleasant Morgoth was... Thoughts? |
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#16 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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Great observations and examples, Encaitare.
I also observed that even in this chapter's setting, "dark" or "black" is never used as the only descriptive word. There's a stench for Shelob, or poisonous flowers in the Morgul vale. I'm sure there are other examples, but this goes to show that Tolkien rarely left it simply to the one word to describe the dark side. "Noisome", anyone? |
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A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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![]() Then we get the handsome bad guy. This is more of a Miltonic or possibly Byronic evil character. Such figures are usually attractive, glamorous, seductive; they have gained benefits from being bad which attract us to them as we want something of what they have. Dracula is probably the best example, as he exerts a powerful attraction on people yet is thoroughly evil. As an aside, the modern vampire stories develop this by showing vampires who are very attractive and make people want to 'be like them' and also have eternal life, whereas we see that secretly such vampires do not always enjoy their immortality. Quote:
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#18 | ||
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
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Just some random, belated thoughts...
- I wonder who originally made that hidden path with all those stairs, and to what purpose? There is a main road to the pass , and in the time of Minas Ithil I guess people used that one. Quote:
I love Frodo's and Sam's conversation about being in a greater story. And the moment where Gollum almost repents is really tragic! For those who don't have Tolkien's letters, here is what he wrote about this incident ( in letter #246) Quote:
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#19 | |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
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#20 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
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There have been times when I became tired of certain authors because they made their villains too obvious. That is why I do like the Saruman part of LOTR.
As for the Gollum thing. That is interesting
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#21 |
Dead Serious
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Long, winding journey for me rereading what is a fairly short chapter. It's main claims to fame are the book's only real image of Minas Morgul, the conversation of Frodo and Sam about being in a Story, and the tragic moment of Sméagol's quavering almost-redemption.
Regarding that last point, I think the brevity of its window and the ease of its destruction are what make it so poignant. Gollum is not a generally sympathetic character. Granting that we see him largely through Sam's biased eyes, nothing about him that we hear from Gandalf, Aragorn, Faramir, or the Rangers of Ithilien suggest that he is at all pleasant to be around. He's profoundly broken, but mostly due to his own wicked doings, and anyone rereading the story knows exactly how treacherous any of his veiled, dubious mutterings to this point truly are. And yet, for one fleeting moment, we believe he can be saved--and it is a tragedy of timing that Sam wakes as he does when he does. You can call this moment literary skill on Tolkien's part--I think it is--but you can also call it a window into thoughts on sin and redemption. Not that I see this a sort of allegory; it is more that I am trying to say that this sense that even the most wretched can be saved from their fallen state is a supremely Christian idea--though the fragility of that possibility here is perhaps wryly cynical.
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#22 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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Both the Prime Evil, Melkor, and his lieutenant were offered the chance to repent. Saruman too. Though redemption never happened for them or Gollum, it's the opportunity that matters. A truly lost cause would not even be afforded the possibility, leaving doubt that anyone is ever "lost" if thy do not choose it.
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#23 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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Here are the words Galadriel used to describe it: " 'In this phial,' she said,`is caught the light of Eärendil's star, set amid the waters of my fountain. It will shine still brighter when night is about you. May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out. Remember Galadriel and her Mirror!' " Of course it comes useful later on as a physical light, but I like to think that it's more than that. After all Earendil's star is the bringer of hope, not just a celestial flashlight, and Galadriel deals with the metaphysical world too and not just with light refraction. Interestingly the phial gives neither form of aid at Sammath Naur, where Orodruin's light and Sauron's will overpower any other source. And after the victory, Arwen's pendant in some ways ousts the phial as a Ring-replacing artifact. Both of these items have an interesting role, and possibly this discussion might merit a thread of its own.
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