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#1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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This relatively short chapter deals primarily with the issue of Gollum and his continuing role in Frodo and Sam's journey. A good deal of it is dialogue between Frodo and Faramir, discussing whether and why he should be spared. Gandalf's lines about pity come to mind; though they are not quoted, Frodo's thoughts about the wizard and what he would have decided suggest to me that they were present in his consideration.
The time is late night, or rather early morning - does that suggest a symbolic dawn to you? There are wonderful descriptions of the location. At this rereading, I noticed that Faramir speaks of Gollum as if he were an animal, using "it" as a pronoun for him. When does this change? Later, he is treated as a servant. Though Frodo is doing something good in saving Gollum's life, it looks to him like he has been betrayed, and Frodo feels miserable about his seeming treachery. What alternatives did he have, besides letting Gollum get killed, of course? Frodo's reasons are not clear to him, though he knows he is doing the right thing. Why do you think he does it anyway? Frodo and the readers get another brief history lesson from Faramir, this time concerning Minas Morgul and the Ringwraiths. Do you think that Faramir's warning changes anything for Frodo and Sam? Do they see him differently, or is the warning just a confirmation of what they already know and feel? There are many questions that are raised by this chapter, and I look forward to a lively discussion!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#2 | |
Tears of the Phoenix
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby.
Posts: 1,453
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#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
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Frodo's "Betrayal" of Gollum really turns the relationship between Gollum and Frodo for the worse. I think that Gollum had slowly begun to trust Frodo. Of his scyzophrenic personality his "good" side was beginning to surface.Of course it was coming along slowly. However, after the incident at the pool that little trust has vanished completely.
I think this incident is what makes Gollum take the hobbits to Shelob. The idea might have been in his mind already, but now he is determined to bring them to her. I love the description of Ithilien at the beginning of the chapter.It has a mysterious but also peaceful feel to it and there is no hint of danger. That is untill we find out that Gollum could be killed. Frodo should have been more honest with Gollum. However, Frodo is so frantic to get Gollum away from the pool that he probably didn't think of a more diplomatic way of getting Smeagol to come away with him. His focus was on Gollum's safety which made him blind to other things. He knew that if he lost Gollum the quest would also be lost as well.
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#4 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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The incident that stood out most strongly for me in this chapter was when Frodo went down to help capture Gollum. So much turns on this single event. The relationship between Frodo & Gollum changes here. Gollum feels Frodo has betrayed him. He feels he is once again alone in the world. He ‘realises’ (wrongly) that his only true companion in life is his ‘Precious’. We read the incident as a tragic misunderstanding on his part - if only he could see that Frodo is trying to save him...
But is it so simple? What does this chapter tell us about what is happening to Frodo? His thoughts at this moment betray something ‘dark’ in his psyche: Quote:
Frodo is disgusted by Gollum - understandably we might think - but this is deeper & darker than mere ‘disgust’. He wants Gollum dead. More than that, he wants to have him executed. Frodo, while appalled by Gollum, this disgusting, creeping thing, knows that Gollum trusts him. He knows that Gollum is a lost, lonely soul, broken by a power that Frodo himself is beginning to know & understand only too well. What’s going on here? It would be easy to put this down to the stress & fear of the moment, except that Frodo has betrayed this kind of selfish cruelty before. When Gandalf first told him of the true nature of the Ring (The Shadow of the Past) he responded with a pretty cruel desire: Quote:
Later, in the Barrow, we see something similar: Quote:
It comes out again in Rivendell: Quote:
I don’t know whether this is all down to the Ring working on his mind. We did see, as I pointed out in the last chapter disussion, Frodo speaking haughtily to Faramir. But this brings us back to the central question about the way the Ring works - is it an exceptionally powerful source of external evil, which overwhelms the individual’s will & forces them to act out of character, or does it merely bring out the ‘evil’ desires in the individual? Has this ‘malicious’ streak always been part of Frodo’s make-up, & merely been exacerbated by the Ring, or are we seeing someone who is essentially good being corrupted? Whatever, what we see in these examples are situations where the people Frodo wishes to leave to be killed (his companions in the Barrow, wishes to attack himself (Bilbo), or have executed, are all in extremely vulnerable positions, & effectively helpless. What we see in each case is, as I said, Frodo wishing to be rid of those who threaten, endanger or anger him. So, how much of what we see in these examples is the ‘real’ Frodo, & how much is the Ring working through him? If its the Ring, then Frodo cannot be held accountable. Nor can he be held accountable for his final act at the Sammath Naur - which would not be a surrender to his own desires, but ‘merely’ a breaking of his spirit - as if he himself was not really ‘there’ & it was the Ring finally taking control of his mmind & will as well as his body. When Tolkien says that at the end Frodo felt like a ‘broken failure’ one could ask whether these feelings centred solely on those final moments at the fire, or whether they grew out of a deeper realisation of his ‘true’ self, & the darkness he found within, a ‘darkness’ which he came to realise had always been there...... To be treated like a ‘saint’, the saviour of the world, while knowing the darker truth, must have been difficult to say the least. |
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#5 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Gollum's 'ego' seems to have been eroded to the point where we do not see any more what he might wish the outside world to see of him; any urge to create an impression barely exists any longer. Gollum has become pure impulse, all his inner urges and thoughts exposed for the world to see. We know exactly what he is afraid of and all his desires and baser instincts are 'out there'. Has Frodo become a little like that through carrying the Ring? He seems to have been made more keenly aware of his darker side, and at times he almost gives in to his impulses. Perhaps when Frodo is repelled by Bilbo's hunger for the Ring he is seeing a reflection of himself? And of course when he sees Gollum he must be even more deeply repelled. Whether that darkness was already within Frodo I could not say for sure. I would say that of course it was there, but then perhaps I would be putting the values from this world onto the values of Middle Earth, and I may be wrong. But maybe the voice of Gandalf reminding Frodo of the need for pity hints that even in Middle Earth people are like us and have a hidden darkness. I've said before that Gandalf's morals seem to be more relative than absolute, and maybe if they are, then it is also possible that Frodo already had the potential for darkness within himself. Frodo's eventual feelings of failure were probably down to the huge weight of things he had to bear. He had mental and physical injuries, the Shire had suffered, he had failed to cast the Ring into the fire, and he had seen deeply into his own soul and perhaps found it to be less than perfect. I think feelings of desperation and failure would only be expected after such trauma.
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#6 | ||||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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Just before we leave this chapter I wanted to make a few comments on the llast conversation between Frodo & Faramir. We see Gollum desperately trying to convince both Faramir (& Frodo) that the pass of Cirith Ungol is the only way into Mordor:
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One final point on this ‘testing’ (I accept that this wasn’t Faramir’s intent, but I think that’s its effect on Frodo). There’s an old ballad, The False Knight on the Road, which seems to ‘echo’ this conversation between Frodo & Faramir: http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/d...tFALSKNGT.html The False Knight issues a series of challenges to the ‘Wee Boy’, which the child counters, each time turning the False Knight’s curse aside. Perhaps another example of Tolkien taking an aspect of ancient tradition & using it in his stories. Whether or not this ‘Magical Ballad’ played any part in this scene, we certainly see Frodo’s growth in both wisdom & in hopelessness - whether the two are natural bedfellows is another question. Frodo has come to the last point at which he can turn aside from his Quest, & he is confronted by a wise friend who seeks to convince him that that would be the best thing for him, even the only logical course of action. Frodo makes his decision, restates his vow to the Council, & commits himself to go on, without hope of success. Long ago, at that same council Gimli had said to Elrond that ‘sworn word may strengthen quaking heart’ & Elrond had responded ‘or break it.’ It seems that at this moment Frodo’s ‘sworn word’ is what gives him strength to overcome Faramir’s pleas, but it is also, in the end, what will break his heart.... |
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#7 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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#8 |
Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,480
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Just a few very quick thoughts.
I really would be hesitant to base any notion of Frodo’s inner character on his impulses in tight spots. Even a saintly person can experience similar thoughts, but it is what is ultimately done that is the true proof of mental or moral strength. It has been mentioned that Faramir might represent Frodo’s our inner voice, his misgivings. perhaps there is a bit of a parallel between Faramir and Frodo, both are in seemingly helpless situations and led by individuals who have become corrupted by Sauron’s power indirectly. Yet both Frodo and Faramir are committed to their duty and go forward despite the odds. It seems that Faramir’s dialog hints at his own decisions as well. Finally, the mention of the palantir at the end is interesting to me. Through these last few chapters I have been debating whether Faramir knew about the seeing stone in Minas Tirith. For if he did it might have some bearing on why he would pass up the Ring, having seen what the palantir did to his father. (Plus the Ring was called Isildir's Bane for heavens sake, not Isildir’s pride and joy!) |
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#9 |
Deadnight Chanter
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brief in, soon out
Since childhood I felt it was probably better to tell Gollum the truth by the pool. 'They are going to shoot you, but for me' may have had a tint of threat to it, but would save the misery of Gollum feeling betrayed (this is the chapter where I really start to feel pity towards poor chap too).
With recent 'enchantement' debates in mind, I would state that I do find Frodo's behavior plausible, and it does not ruin the flow of the narrative. Frightened Gollum would have [probably] bolted and got shot. But, leaving aside 'what's and 'if's, I still feel (co-feel with Gollum?) it was unfair of Frodo (a bit) to 'misuse' Gollum's trust.
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#10 |
Dead Serious
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A quick chapter--but not quick enough to warrant this being only the tenth post on this thread! This chapter pivots the whole relationship between Frodo and Gollum, thereby shifting the whole plot to come. After this, Sam is almost of a mediary between Frodo and Gollum where before it was Frodo between Sam and Gollum.
Something good is genuinely wounded in Gollum when Frodo betrays him, yet it is impossible to say how Frodo could have done much differently. And they say Tolkien writes only in black and white! Here we have Frodo and Faramir--two of Tolkien's most unequivocally "good" characters--acting within laws and from honest motives, and yet the result is to break Gollum's faith. In some respects, Smeagol dies here, never again to have a hope of being ascendant. The thought occurred to me this reread that although it would have been a wicked deed to slay Gollum here with an unexpected arrow, *for Gollum* it might have been a better ending--or, to put it another way, he would have died a better person.
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#11 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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That's a really interesting point, and something I never thoughr about. Gollum would have died at his highest point since finding the Ring. But there is a certain theme among LOTR's wrongdoers. Gollum should be slain by law and common sense; he is spared with Frodo's vouching for the hint of goodness in him, only to die later in an unrelated turn of events attributable to all sorts of reasons and quite possibly decreed by fate. Grima could have been executed for high treason; he was given mercy on account of his past honest service, but is killed far away by unrelated people for unrelated reasons. Saruman also falls in this category, but he is the one exception where the death closely follows the condemnation and is arguably linked; Frodo convinces the mob of angry hobbits that he should be pitied as a great one fallen low, and it is not the mob angry at his destruction of their world but an individual who has had enough personal contempt and mistreatment that does him in. In all cases the executions would not only have been lawful but also sensible and supported by the populance and not unjust. And in all cases the subject is given a pass because of faith in some past or hidden goodness - a sort of hope of it reawakening. But none of them rise to a nobler position than they were in - they only fall lower. It would probably have been a nobler death for Grima to be executed by Theoden in Edoras as the infamous spy than to be an emaciated miserable man shot down by people he feared and did not know. Perhaps nobler is not the right word, but he was certainly still higher in position, fame, respect and self-respect in Rohan than in Hobbitton.
I can think of one other person who was spared from lawful death: Beregond. Having spilled blood in the Silent Street he merited death by the law, but he was forgiven because his intentions were good. And he makes good of his chance: we do not see much of him, but presumably he just continues to be the Beregond we knew before in all that matters. If anything, he gained from the encounter - lost his job but got a better one, and the love and gratitude of his lord (and hero!) to go with it. There certainly are Numenorian patterns at play here: Denethor in his ruin turns to the tombs; Beregond, Faramir, and Aragorn all represent honouring death and history without being mentally enslaved by it. But what about this other pattern - what makes Beregond's second chance so different from the others? Is it that his intentions were good in the first place and they were taken into account? The comparison with Gollum seems to outline the relativity and context-dependance of the morality in LOTR. Gollum is oblivious to breaking law and doesn't actually do anyone any harm, while Beregond knows he is breaking old laws and he actually kills people, but it seems like in the end he gets much better treatment that Gollum does. Though maybe that's more because Beregond can see and appreciate the kindness he is given. Gollum can't understand Faramir's point of view at all so the exception making is wasted on him; Gollum only saw the bad treatment and not the worse treatment he was spared, so of course he thinks it was not fair. I am starting to ramble so I will stop here, but I wonder what others think of the spared evildoer theme.
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#12 | |
Dead Serious
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(Mind you, if their places were reversed, it seems likely enough that Faramir would have explicitly been their guide post-Parth Galen, and had they come to Ithilien and met Boromir, it would have been quite a different encounter... but maybe not for the best in the end. Who would have guided Frodo over the Ephel Duáth? Would Boromir, either getting the truth from Faramir OR meeting secrecy from his brother, have let them continue on?)
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#13 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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