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Princess of Skwerlz
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This is the chapter for Faramir fans! He is definitely the most important character in it; we learn much about him, but also much (Gondorian history, etc.) from him.
It is interesting how the feeling of danger and safety in Ithilien goes back and forth in this chapter. At first, it seems that Frodo is in danger, on trial by Faramir. Then, when his suspicion is allayed, a feeling of security returns, only to be dispelled by the knowledge that travelling is dangerous following the raid. At the close of the chapter there is a haven, brief though their stay there is. Faramir is another of Tolkien’s good characters who is yet dangerous. He is shrewd in his assessment of the situation and has knowledge that enables him to combine facts and jump to the right conclusions quickly. He is loyal to his city, his people, and his family, showing his love for Boromir though he is aware of his failings. In that, and in his judgement of Frodo and Sam’s character, he shows his ability to make good evaluations of persons. He shows his truthfulness in several statements: Quote:
Tolkien’s skill in story-telling is shown in the connection between the threads of the tale – Frodo and Sam find out about Boromir’s death, though they were no longer there to know of it. And interestingly, looking ahead, Faramir’s experience with the two hobbits will come into the other thread later on, in Minas Tirith, comforting Gandalf and Pippin somewhat. There is also a connecting element in Faramir’s telling of past experiences he had with Boromir and Gandalf. We find out more about them, their personalities, and the history of Gondor in his conversation with the hobbits (a skilful way to weave ‘facts’ into the narrative). We also hear more about Rohan’s history and its connection with Gondor, including some general history of the race of Men. I find it rather amusing that Sauron is called “He whom we do not name” or the “Nameless One” by Faramir – shades of Harry Potter! The description of the waterfall in the setting sun is gorgeous, isn’t it?! It is interesting to compare the conversations of Frodo and Sam, respectively – the difference between them is shown vividly, and we get to know both a bit better from what they say. There are too many wonderful lines in this chapter – I can’t even begin quoting them, at least if I did, there would be nothing left for anyone else to quote! ![]() This introduction has only scratched the surface of this fantastic chapter. I look forward to a great discussion with many of you!
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#2 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Getting in quickly......
I am sure that I will shove my oar in frequently on this chapter as I am, as some of you are only too aware, a devoted fan of Faramir. Alas this will not be a detailed post as the books are not with me, but there are two points that I want to raise.
Firstly, though I have often posted on various threads and in various contexts, here about how Faramir seems to be a true Numenorean but it was only when looking at this chapter specifically that I realised that the title "The Window on the West" could be a description of Faramir as well as the translation of Henneth Annun. There is more I could say on this - but I would prefer to be able to refer to the text - in the meanwhile anyone so inclined is more than welcome to pick up this ball and run with it ![]() The second point may belong elsewhere, but I have just reread the biography,I came across the extract from Tolkien's diary on Faramir's arrival, ‘I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking through the woods of Ithilien’. So who did?
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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#3 | |
A Mere Boggart
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What is interesting is that it is Faramir who refuses to name Sauron. Perhaps it is because he and his men are in such constant peril from Sauron's minions and allies. People in the military are often superstitious and pay great heed to omens and portents, which is possibly a way of clinging to hope in the face of real danger, although it can also have a negative effect when the omens are bad. Later on, we see Frodo and Sam on the edge of "the Nameless Land" when about to pass into Mordor, showing that the sense of foreboding has rubbed off on them.
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Cryptic Aura
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Like Mithalwen, I will make just a short stop here for a first post. I think Estelyn picked up a good point about naming:
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Such veiled allusions abound in this chapter and acrue particularly to the Faramir character. It is part, I think, of Tolkien's way of suggesting the spiritual nature of his tale without using dogmatic, direct statement. For instance, consider the style of the grace which Faramir enacts and then explains at the dinner: Quote:
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Pilgrim Soul
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V . quick point...
Also worth bearing in mind that it is not only evil things that are not named - think of God being referred to as Lord rather than Yahweh in translations of the bible after the practice of Hebrews not to say God's name out of reverence.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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Illustrious Ulair
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And so to Faramir....
Well, I suppose you either love him or hate him. Or rather you’re convinced by him or you’re not. Obviously the movie makers weren’t, so they decided this ‘goody-goody’ had to be made more ‘realistic’. I’ve never found him not to be ‘realistic’. He is wise, compassionate & concerned to do the right thing, even if he loses all in the process. As Anne C Petty has pointed out Tolkien’s Faramir is the perfect Steward for Aragorn, & clearly that was Tolkien’s intent. The incoming age of Men will need men like Aragorn & Faramir if it is to have any chance of both retaining the best of the past & of building a future which the inhabitants of Middle-earth (& we the readers) can have hope in. Yet many readers seem to have a problem with Faramir - how can anyone simply walk away from the Ring, feeling no temptation? Quote:
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Two slightly contradictory statements are made by Faramir in this chapter. The first: Quote:
Yet in this passage we see also, perhaps, a slightly less admirable side to Faramir - a side which perhaps Eowyn will play some part in redeeming him of - his classification of Men into three ‘classes’ (with his own people in the ‘top’ class). He judges other men as being ‘high’, ‘middle’ & ‘lower’ - the Class system we know so well in all its glory!. Yet Faramir, through his love of Eowyn, will marry one of a ‘lower’ class & so learn the error of his ways. Don’t tell me there’s no character development in Faramir! But there is also something else going on in this classification of Men into three kinds - it is the same classification that we find in the Elves of the First Age - the ‘High’ Elves who went to Valinor, the ‘Middle’ Elves, the Elves of the Twighlight, the Sindar, who began the journey but left off part way, & the Avari, the Unwilling, Elves of the Darkness, who refused the Light. Faramir is projecting the history (& the choices) of the Elder Children upon the Younger. Again an idealisation of the past to the detriment of the present. Even the ‘Blessing’ he proclaims before meat looks backwards: Quote:
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 04-04-2005 at 01:24 PM. |
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#7 |
Pilgrim Soul
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[QUOTE=davem
Yet in this passage we see also, perhaps, a slightly less admirable side to Faramir - a side which perhaps Eowyn will play some part in redeeming him of - his classification of Men into three ‘classes’ (with his own people in the ‘top’ class). He judges other men as being ‘high’, ‘middle’ & ‘lower’ - the Class system we know so well in all its glory!. Yet Faramir, through his love of Eowyn, will marry one of a ‘lower’ class & so learn the error of his ways. [/QUOTE] I think that this is too harsh. Stating the division made in lore is not condoning it - in fact he points out how meaningless it has become. And he is hardly slumming it by marrying Eowyn since they are cousin to some degree through Morwen of Lossarnach - not close kin, but close enough for the relationship to have been acknowledged by Imrahil, another "true" Numenorean type....
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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#8 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Basically, Faramir is an idealist. As I said, his idealism is what enables him to reject what the Ring offers - he will not have Gondor Mistress of even willing slaves - but he has the faults of those virtues. Principal among those faults is a pessimism - 'It is long since we had any hope.' - about Mankind. All have fallen from grace. There is no hope even in the decendants of Numenor. So, he needs a lesson or two, not in humility as his brother did, but in hope. He too will fall under the spell of the Black Breath. He has lost hope & immersed himself in long lost ideals of the way things were. I think seeing the desperate struggles & sacrifices of Frodo, Sam & later Eowyn enables him to redsicover his lost hope, which ultimately manifests in the Figure of Aragorn.
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 04-04-2005 at 03:07 PM. |
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#9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Ah, Faramir...sigh. That's enough silliness.
![]() One thing I immediatly noticed was the difference between Faramir and Boromir. Now that we get to know Faramir better we see that he doesn't want the ring at all. Boromir however, had to struggle with himself because of his lust for the ring. Therefore, Faramir seems more confident then his brother. He didn't have to struggle with lust for power and Boromir did. Doubtlessly this struggle made Boromir very unsure of himself. But upon meeting Faramir I get the impression of a man who is confident about himself and what he has to do. He knows what to do with the task that is given to him,which is to keep Osgiliath of being overrun. He also knows that eventually there is nothing that can be done. This of course causes conflict between him and his father. (but that is later in ROTK) One of the most obvious differences is the fact that Faramir is more learned then Boromir and that his blood seems to go back to the Numenoreans. That is another reason why I like Faramir so much. He is far from ordinary and as has been said earlier he would be a great steward for Aragorn. In this chapter Frodo and Sam have to cope with the news that Boromir is dead. Of all the members in the fellowship they are the most ignorant of the goings on because they are cut off from the rest of the world. In Ithillien they are also able to come in touch with the rest of the world before they enter Mordor. It must be agrivating when you don't know what is going on. This is yet another thing Sam and Frodo have to deal with. I like the fact that Tolkien gives the reader some time to learn more about ME. It just adds so much more depth to the world. Plus its a chance to show off as to how deep he(Tolkien) went into creating this world. These aspects make some people think of LOTR as a historical novel rather than just a fantasy novel.
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#10 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
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Illustrious Ulair
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Yet, like Tolkien himself, they believe that there is an ideal which should be striven for: 'A man's reach should exceed his grasp, else what's a heaven for?' The strange thing is that while Tolkien himself seemed to hold this belief he also seemed to believe that it was an impossible ideal - all his characters & races fail to live up to the standards they set themselves, perhaps because they are fallen beings. Yet they never forsake the ideal. They never reach a point where they decide, 'Right, we've tried & failed, so we may as well give up now.' They 'fight the Long Defeat', but its as if they are not fighting an external enemy, but rather their own fallen natures. I wonder if this is the cause of their pessimism & lack of hope - they will not shrug their shoulders & walk away from the ideal, but keep on striving to live up to it. If we take Sam for instance - Sam rises in the 'hierarchy' of society, not just the hierarchy of the Shire, but also within the hierarchy of the greater society of Middle-earth under the returned King. There is no 'revolution' within Middle-earth, no casting away of the old ideals, merely a continued striving to live up to them. The social structures remain but it becomes possible to rise above what one had been. Middle-earth becomes a meritocracy. This makes me wonder about Tolkien's own life experiences & how they shaped his thinking. The old ways will not just magically re-establish themselves, they will have to be built up by struggle & sacrifice. But the old ideals will not themselves be sacrificed, they will remain like a light on the mountaintop, something to guide the struggling traveller. Novelty for its own sake, new ideaologies, will not be considered, because they are (in Middle-earth at least) not 'right'. As I've said before, the Gondorians, & Gondorians like Faramir in particular, are not simply fighting against evil in the person of 'He whom we do not name', they are fighting for their ideals. So we seem to have a 'tension' - the ideals of the past provide them with a reason to fight (even if they are fighting a 'long defeat'), but they must face reality - the reality that the past was not itself ideal. Life is an eternal struggle for an ideal which will never be attained (not in this world) but that does not justify ceasing to struggle, still less changing the goal. So, the more I consider it, the more Tolkien does seem like Faramir. So, my answer to Mithalwen's question: Quote:
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#12 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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If evil won it would destroy all their ideals. This is why every character is willing to endanger themselves. They want their believes to live on and don't want them to be destroyed by Sauron. Of course Faramir is a good example of this. He stays in Ithillien, even though it is almost certain that he will be defeated,because he doesn't want evil to come any closer to the city of Gondor. The city of Gondor is very dear to him because it represents the greatness of the older days which he admires so much. Why is he so fascinated with events that happened so long ago? I think its because he admired his ancestors for what they did and accomplished. Plus, getting back to the idea of guarding you believes,his ancestors certainly did just that and were able to keep their believes safe and alive for many years.He respects them because he knows that if they hadn't fought as fiercely and unrelentlessley for their believes he would not have the freedom he has now. Anyway I'm beginning to ramble. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
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A Mere Boggart
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One question has occurred to me, and that is whether Faramir is the only example of a Gondorian who is like this? The other prominent Gondorians, Denethor and Boromir, we know to be different in their outlook, though in his own way, Boromir is also something of a dreamer. We do not really see enough of Imrahil to discern if he is like this, and Aragorn does not seem to pontificate on the nature of war. If Faramir is the only example of such a Gondorian then how far could it be said that his yearnings/thoughts are in any way typical? Faramir does have an opposite force, and that is Eowyn, who is seemingly different in every way; together they make a 'whole' and complement one another perfectly, and it could be argued that Faramir and Eowyn are anima/animus figures, an argument I shall leave to greater experts on Jung ![]()
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Pilgrim Soul
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I would have happily had a lot more Imrahil ... but I have always felt that he and Faramir are cut from similar cloth - and there is evidence to support this (though inconveniently mainly not in this chapter) for a start Faramir and Imrahil both have an "elvish" quality
I still think that it is harsh of davem to paint Faramir as, for want of a better word, a snob for his regret that the men of Gondor have declined. One can seek equality at a high level rather than that everyone be reduced to the lowest common denominator. If you think of the descriptions of the various troops of the lords of Gondor, those of Gondor are portrayed as the "noblest" - but this includes the men at arms rather than just the knights and the prince. Yet I do not assume that necessarily that a plain soldier of Belfalas would rank higher than a lord of Lamedon say. Belfalas seems to be a microcosm of greater Gondor as it might have been. It maybe wrong to include reference to HoME, but one of the problems of Gondor was the failure of the kings to ensure the succession. At the time prior to the War of the Ring, even the house of the stewards is on shaky ground. Boromir, for all his desire to know how long it would take to turn a Steward in to a king, has shown no inclination to do his duty on the posterity front ![]() Imrahil fills the void left by Denethor in his nephew's life. It is he who rescues Faramir and bears him back to Denethor with the reproach "Your son, has returned after great deeds". He is proactive while Denethor is passive/negative. It is fitting that Faramir will become prince of Ithilien ( which is in different ways a mini Numenore) to paralel Imrahil's own principality and marriages between him and Eowyn and Eomer and Lothiriel further reinforces the ties - it is virtually siblings marrying siblings. Oh dear I fear this should be elsewhere ... but Imrahil is second only to Faramir in my book and so I risk turning in to the bunny boiler of Middle Earth ![]()
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 04-06-2005 at 01:29 PM. Reason: insert clarifying phrase (italicised) |
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Illustrious Ulair
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Some random thoughts....
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But Frodo’s display of ‘pride’ is not the same as Sam’s. Sam stands up in defence of Frodo, willing to risk his safety in defence of his master, & one feels he is motivated more by frustration & desperation than by hubris. Yet Frodo’s manifestation of pride is in the end replaced by something else - hopelessness & despair: Quote:
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But what of Sam? In what is almost an ‘echo’ of Gimli’s confrontation with Eomer over Galadriel, Sam also comes to the Lady’s defence - but here the characters & situation are different, & Sam’s ‘teaching’ is more polite.. Quote:
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#16 |
Pilgrim Soul
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These are nice reminders of some wonderful exchanges - I think that Sam and Faramir are two of Tolkien's most rounded, complex and developed characters (even though Faramir's development was at one remove
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 04-06-2005 at 02:10 PM. |
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A Mere Boggart
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Sam is one character who I cannot imagine being too afraid to challenge anyone. He questions Aragorn in the Prancing Pony, listens in to both the Council of Elrond and to Gandalf at Bag End, and remains suspicious of Gollum despite what Frodo tells him. He is a good example of the robust kind of character who is never afraid to speak his or her mind no matter what the situation may be, and pays no heed to rank or social status. I have to like Sam for this characteristic, though it has to be said that he is a benevolent example; in real life many such plain speaking characters can be, shall we say, 'difficult'?
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#18 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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He is saved by his self deprecation and his good nature and humour - otherwise he might seem a tad negative. He know the situation but he gets on with it rather than whines.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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#19 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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I would associate the kind of cheeky confidence Sam shows with youthfulness. Granted, he wasn't that much younger than Frodo, only 12 years, but certainly by no means old by hobbit standards. He is admonished by Faramir, who tells him that he (yet) lacks the wisdom his master has.
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A Mere Boggart
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Just as the different groups of Elves count themselves as ‘kin’ or not, so do Men, or at least, the Men of Gondor do this. The Rohirrim seem more concerned with their everyday existence, and though they revere and respect their ancestors, they see the past as very much behind them, as seen in Eomer’s wonder at meeting Aragorn. In Rohan the old stories are still simple tales, whereas in Gondor they seem to have taken on a scripture-like quality. I definitely get the sense that Gondor at some point in history had been trying to follow the Elven ideal; Men seem to have been sub-divided in the eyes of Gondorians into various cultural categories, those who did not leave for Numenor are referred to as ‘refusing the call’, and then become ‘of the Twilight’. Most importantly for the eventual decline of Gondor, Men spend far too long devoted to preserving the past and not nurturing the future. Quote:
In essence, it is a good thing that the former Numenoreans are now long fallen from their high positions, as their culture would have died out long ago. This would eventually mean that Aragorn would have had no Gondor to return to, no people to lead. These people had to accept that fighting was necessary to their survival, that it was more important than learning, and perhaps they do indeed accept this; we have to remember we are hearing these words through Faramir, a man who would much rather be learning than fighting, who seems to yearn for the past, and who clearly has read more than most on the history of his country. Quote:
I thought I’d pick up on this point as it brings up some interesting ideas about the state of Gondor, not just on the character of Faramir. This chapter reveals a lot about what kind of place Gondor is, and at this point in the narrative it is important to know exactly who and what we are rooting for; soon we will be plunged into the terror of the wilds once more, and before long we will be at Minas Tirith itself. Quote:
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#21 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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I suppose this is true, but nevertheless, Sam always seems the most "grown up" of the hobbits to me becasue he has worked for his living and is far more in touch with the realities of life as experienced by most people, than any of the other hobbits - or perhaps indeed any other character. May be this is what gives him confidence - for in a sense, someone who works an honest trade is noone's inferior. He has an inherent sense of what he feels is right and he does not let any rank or system of behviour to get in the way - although I can think of few people less anarchic. For all his "mister Frodos", he has no fear to speak out to Aragorn, Elrond, Faramir... (the young hobbit who was giving him "sauce"!).
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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Dead Serious
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Illustrious Ulair
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Two quotes strike me as significant in the light of what we've been discussing re: Faramir & his attitude to the past. First is his words to Frodo about his desire to see a reestablshment of the Gondor of the past:
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It makes me wonder how alike Denethor & Faramir really were - though I seem to remember Gandalf remarking that both men had inherited more of the blood of Numenor than Boromir had. In fact, as an aside, it does seem that Boromir was more 'forward looking than his father or his brother - didn't Boromir ask Denethor why the family remained 'merely' Stewards, & had not claimed the Kingship? |
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#24 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Maybe because Faramir and Denethor are so alike it is a reason why Denethor doesn't like his younger son. He might have seen too much of himself in Faramir.
A favourite part of this chapter is the description of the rangers hideout. It is the perfect place to stay when you don't want to be seen. I would also like to add that I wouldn't mind living in Ithilien.(I peaceful times) It seems like such a wonderful place.
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#25 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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Deadnight Chanter
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Random thoughts of someone missing the chance of jumping the bandwagon...
... and running hard to catch up
Disclaimer first: I love Faramir. What to follow is not an essay in castin slurs upon him. Now to one thing which struck me: Faramir is a bit of a play-actor and 'self-made man' (in a mental sense). He trains his mind as much as he supposedly trains his body, pursuing perfection. He tries on the mask of a better person, and lives up to the standard. I refer to the following lines: Quote:
Denethor is not blind. What I rather would praise in Faramir, Denethor states as case for indictment: Quote:
Now I run ahead of things a bit (or even a lot, since it is the next book where the quote is taken from), but that is an accussation to strike where it will hurt, it seems, a blame of 'appearing', but not, in fact 'being' is what Faramir would fear most. We are alike with him in this respect, only I fail to live up to the standard more often than not (I refer to 'Masks' thread as well here) Denethor loves his both sons. He's desparate to find someone else besides himself to blame for Boromir's death. I suppose it is fairly unconsious too. But this also for later discussion cheers
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#27 | |
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
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#28 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,313
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#29 |
Dead Serious
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One of the best passages in The Lord of the Rings is Sam's unwitting revelation of the Ring to Faramir. This chapter is all about Fararmir (and, by extension, about Gondor), and as Sam rightly notes, once Faramir knows the truth of the Ring, it is a chance for him to show his true colours, a test he passes just as Gandalf or Aragorn.
I read through this chapter a bit disjointedly, so I don't have a lot to say--though Faramir is the sort of character who provokes a lot of discussion and passion. I will say, though, that Henneth Annűn is probably the single most beautiful place in Book IV, one of the best in the whole trilogy--and perhaps just a bit dearer for having been left out of the movies.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#30 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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In this chapter, the reader finds Faramir so different from his late brother, it might be hard to reconcile the kinship. Faramir exhibits the best of Númenor, while seeming to avoid its vice of pride.
One thing I find moving is the "standing silence" facing the West.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#31 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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Hobbits treat their past differently from Numenorians. It is there to be used, not silently commemorated. Their heroes and celebrities are selected by different criteria. Hobbit fame comes from being useful. Everyone honours Old Toby every time they smoke a pipe, yet harvesting pipeweed can hardly be called a great deed by Numenorian standards, nor smoking a way to honour an achievement. Frodo is a weirdo while Merry and Pippin are heroes of great renown, because Merry and Pippin look flashy and throw good parties and that's what people will tell stories about and imitate. Frodo's example just wasn't really applicable to the hobbits of the near future, and hobbits honour by applying. That is in contrast to Numenorians and their like, who would doubtless remember Merry and Pippin as catalysts in the War and probably would have some personal stories to tell about them, but will always give the greater honours to Frodo and Sam. So I don't think it's uncouth of hobbits to lack a custom like this. Hobbits don't silently reflect on the distant past, just like Numenorians don't honour their gardeners while eating their fruit. Though I suppose an ideally balanced culture would have an element of both.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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