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#1 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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This chapter is divided into two parts: the first takes place in Rivendell; the second tells of the first part of the journey of the Fellowship.
Unlike the movie, where the Fellowship members volunteer during the Council meeting, the process in the book takes time. First information must be gathered concerning the Riders, which means that all concerned must wait for almost two months. The hobbits feel the beneficial power of Rivendell: Quote:
Then the day of decision comes; Elrond names the Fellowship members, though it is Gandalf who speaks for the inclusion of Merry and Pippin with his words about trusting to friendship rather than wisdom. I can’t help but wonder – if Elrond had succeeded in his original purpose of sending them to the Shire to warn their fellow hobbits of danger, would that have saved the Shire from the events that led to the Scouring? I think not, as they were not yet prepared to defend themselves, their people and their land. Interestingly, at this point, Aragorn states that Minas Tirith is his goal, as he intends to accompany Boromir there. Two weapons are mentioned that will play a major role in future events – Andúril, the reforged Narsil, and Sting, which Bilbo gives to Frodo. Additionally, the gift of the mithril mail shirt is vital to the success of Frodo’s mission, as it saves his life later on. One poem is given, Bilbo’s song “I sit beside the fire and think”. Then the Fellowship leaves, at Elrond’s insistence with no promises made as to staying with the Ringbearer. They journey through Hollin to Caradhras, where the weather defeats them, apparently with some evil supernatural influence. With that defeat, the chapter ends. Do you find yourself comparing the book and the movie at this point in the story? What parts of the chapter impress you most? Let’s discuss the choice of the Fellowship, if possible without getting too far ahead in the story…
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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Other things that stick in my mind from this chapter are the way we are again presented with the idea that Middle earth itself is somehow alive - it does not quickly forget places the Elves have dwelt, It can be malicious & cruel - so different from the movie, where the malice is Saruman’s, here we have the mountain itself venting its wrath on those who dare to trespass. Also, the miruvor - odd that the source of sustenance that comes from Rivendell is drink that from Lorien is food,yet both seem to have the same uplifting & life sustaining power. And why nine companions in the Fellowship - it seems that Elrond felt that the number was so significant that he decided on that first, & then struggled to find people to make it up. Why was it so important that there be nine companions? (Another thing - for those interested - CT gives us the translation of naur an edraith ammen, Gandalf’s firekindling spell: ‘fire be for saving of us’, which, if anyone has heard the BBC Radio Hobbit, is misused there, where Gandalf uses it to start any fire at all, no matter what the circumstances.) Finally, a couple of lines from Home, which didn’t make it into the final draft, but which I like for the way they show the development of Gandalf’s character. The first is from the first version, where the travellers are Gandalf, Boromir, Trotter & the hobbits. Quote:
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#3 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2004
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davem said:
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It works on more levels than that, too. It sets Rivendell up as the antithesis to Mordor: the Nazgul come from Minas Morgul and hunt the Ring almost to the door of Rivendell, while the Company sets out from Rivendell with the ultimate goal of destroying the Ring in Orodruin. It's true that none of the members of the Fellowship (besides Frodo) are really bound to travel the whole distance (and they're certainly not bound to each other or to Elrond with anything like the bond between Sauron and his Wraiths), and indeed Boromir and Aragorn state their destination to be Minas Tirith, but the Fellowship's existence is so heavily symbolic that it is really immaterial whether or not all of its members complete the mission. The point is the setting out, as illustrated by Gandalf's pronouncement concerning the Nazgul. At the time the Company starts from Rivendell, the Nazgul are at least temporarily incapacitated. So in addition to becoming the symbolic foils for the Nazgul, the Nine Walkers at first even replace the Nine Riders, stepping into the world at a time when their enemies have temporarily been incapacitated. All of which brings up another interesting conjecture--by sending out his own hand-picked Company of Nine against the other Nine, is Elrond setting himself up as the symbolic enemy of Sauron? It's not too implausible--he's one of only a few First-Agers still around at this point in the story, he's a Ring-Bearer, he's certainly the master of one of the more powerful realms remaining in the world. And at least temporarily, the Ring is in his house, not Sauron's.
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#4 |
Laconic Loreman
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I have heard a few people ask on threads, what's the point of the fellowship, it breaks apart in the FOTR, and the "task," which was to help Frodo destroy the ring has been torn apart. Here's the way I think of it, you have this group of nine, good friends, and establish a good friendship with eachother. But, when the fellowship does break, it breaks into even smaller fellowships, but those fellowships carry a stronger friendship. You have Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli all develop a strong friendship. Sam was just a servant to Frodo before, and ends up being Frodo's best friends/most loyal companion. Then the friendship between Merry and Pippin grows. Also, and interesting one, Gandalf and Pippin, we see Gandalf scold Pippin a few times, but so many times Gandalf acts as that father figure to Pippin (as well as the other hobbits) but Pippin is the one that caught my eye. So, back to original point, you have a group of friends, called "The Fellowship," it breaks, but then it grows into a bunch of "smaller fellowships" yet the bonds between them are stronger.
I also think each member had a purpose for being there, I haven't figured out why all were placed there yet, but here's who I think I've figured out. Gandalf-He acts as a guide towards the whole Fellowship, I sort of see him as that little voice on your shoulder, sure he dies and departs from the Fellowship in Moria, but even in his death he helps the Fellowship, by maybe past sayings that he said earlier. Or, even helping Frodo on Amon Sul, battling with Sauron when Frodo put on the ring. Aragorn- The King, of course he will be in the Fellowship, his main task is to go to Minas Tirith and reinstall a King in Gondor, and to help Frodo for as long as he stays in the Fellowship. Boromir- His sole purpose I believe was to show Frodo he needed to get away from the Fellowship. By him going crazy on Frodo, that showed Frodo the ring was tearing apart the Fellowship, and he needed to get out of there, before any other member turns into a "Boromir." Also, Boromir's strength helps out the Fellowship as well, I mean Aragorn can't carry 4 hobbits through the snow by himself. Gimli is too short, and Legolas just prances on top of the snow. Frodo- simple to destroy the ring. Sam- simple, to be a faithful companion of Frodo, and help him destroy the ring, and also watch out for that treachorous Gollum. Merry- Without him in the Fellowship, he wouldn't have been in Minas Tirith to help slay the Witch-King, or "stir the ents" to fight Saruman. Eowyn wouldn't have beaten the WK without Merry's help, there's no doubt about that. Also, he arroused the Ents, now it didn't happen like it did in the movie, because the Ents were already ticked at Saruman, they just didn't have any reason to go to war, until Merry and Pippin roused them up. Pippin- Reason mentioned above, "wakening" up the ents, and of course saving Faramir's life. Gimli and Legolas I haven't quite figured out yet. Legolas, might have been chosen because maybe someone like a Glorfindel or one of Elrond's sons would have just been too powerful and might have been noticed sooner. Gimli, provides good axe skill, and good fighter, he clearly is one of the best fighters in the fellowship, because Aragorn is even impressed by Gimli's axe work. Last edited by Boromir88; 09-27-2004 at 03:41 PM. |
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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""It is rash to be too sure, yet I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless. If that is so, it will be some time before they can begin the hunt again."
-------------------------- Despite Elrond's worry about rashness, it's always seemed to me that the more prudent course would have been to leave within a week or two. This would have given enough time for scouting in the immediate vicinity, and left much less time for the nazgul to regroup, inform Sauron of events, and perhaps lay new traps for Frodo and friends.
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#6 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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This chapter provides us with what I think is one of the key examples of Jackson's failure to appreciate the reasons for which Tolkien was so succesful. I speak of Saruman's spell, causing the storm on Caradhras. To Jackson's way of thinking, the storm is a waste if it does not stem directly from the plot, hence he feels the need to motivate it through Saruman. But in the book the storm has the important function of providing depth, and thus believability, to Middle-earth.
As with the Old Forest and the Barrow-downs, we find that not all evil can be directly traced to Sauron. But more than that, it characterizes Middle-earth. For Tolkien, as some have observed elsewhere, the physical landscape is itself a kind of character. It has its own personality (or personalities); it can aid or obstruct our protagonists; it is a real presence that must be dealt with, the same as any character. The story of the attempted passage of Caradhras is the story of the defeat of a powerful wizard, a king, a warrior, an elf, a dwarf, and four hobbits by nature itself. It's foreshadowed earlier in the chapter: Quote:
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#7 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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I had thought that Sauron or maybe the Witch-king stirred up the storms on Caradhras. Aiwendil, if I'm taking what you said wrong, then please correct me, but here's what I mean...
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#8 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Interesting citations by Boromir, but I've been inclined towards Aiwendil's
views of Caradhras and the autonomous Middle-earth forces (for good and ill), and also with distaste for PJ's having Saruman "control" Caradhras, for reasons cited by A. above. Gandalf's reply is actually somewhat ambiguous, also, he is Gandalf the Grey, with incomplete knowledge of facts. And remember the false rumors of Rohan's voluntarily sending horses to Sauron. A quote indicating Caradhras's generally autonomous nasty nature: Quote:
apart from Sauron's: Quote:
chapter, (without even scooping up the ring). ![]()
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Aure Entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin; 09-27-2004 at 08:49 PM. |
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#9 |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Boromir, what Aiwendil meant was that in the movie FotR, it was Saruman who was causing the snow to fall on Caradhras, not in the book.
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#10 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Boromir88 wrote:
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Tuor identified some reasons to think that the snow storm was not caused by Sauron; I agree with these. Of course, it's never made entirely clear. And that contributes somewhat to the realism. |
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#11 |
Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
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But anywhen . . .
Notice Frodo's use of the phrase "I do" when Elrond asked him to reafirm his commitment to be Ringbearer? I might just be the better choice of words, but it eerily sounds like Frodo is binding himself to the Ring in marriage.
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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#12 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Speculation: there were originally Nine chief Valar including Melkor, before he was cast out, so maybe Sauron was setting himself up as a symbolic rival to Eru? Of course, nine is three times three, & we all know how many times three crops up in the Legendarium - 3 silmarils, 3 elven rings, 3 branches of the High Elves, of the hobbits, of the Edain, 3 ages, 3 continents - Middle earth, Numenor & Aman, 3 kinds of men according to Faramir - high, middle & low, the three farthing stone, 3 kinds of pipe weed......etc, etc, etc. I won't go on, but its clear that 3 is the most symbolic number in Middle earth by a long way, & maybe this is significant in Eru's creation of Nine supreme powers - a 'trinity of trinities'
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 09-28-2004 at 10:53 AM. |
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#13 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Aiwendil and everyone, thank you, I happened to read it wrong, and through rereading I can "see clearly now." In fact, Aiwendil I like the point you made about Caradhras.
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#14 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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There were also Nine ships which bore the Faithful towards the shores of Middle-earth: "four for Elendil, and for Isildur three, and for Anárion two." (Akallabêth )
As to the weather, a couple of points. Also from Akallabêth, there is a passage which explains how weather had become separated from the "needs and liking of Men" as the Numenorians declined further and further into their false worship. (Hang on, I'm not saying that there is special intervention.) Quote:
I cannot help but wonder why the Fellowship had to delay so long. Was it really necessary for Elrond to send out messengers to attempt to track down the Ringwraths? Was the two month delay crucially necessary? The messengers passed freely over mountains unencumbered by winter storms. How would the discovery of any Wraiths surviving in form and body have changed the plans to destroy the Ring in Mount Doom? Bilbo blames Frodo for setting up the initial delay by not leaving the Shire until after their birthday. Yet it all serves, to me, to show that even with the best of intentions decisions in Middle-earth can err. It lends an incredible credibility to me, part of the tangible sense of reality in this fantastic world. The first challenge the Fellowship faces is not some mythical entity of terror but the looming weather, brought on my their own decision to wait to see if it is safe to go out.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 09-29-2004 at 04:41 AM. |
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#15 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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![]() Not to stray off chapter itself, I suggest you can post your views on the subject in the thread Frodo or the Ring, or more recent Why Did Frodo Volunteer, otherwise set up a new thread for it. cheers
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#16 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Seen in the context of the later idea, we could see Morgoth's malice deliberately targetting the Fellowship, but this isn't what comes across to me - nor does any feeling of Middle earth being 'evil' - its more that it has its own 'desires', its own emotions, almost, anger, pain, joy, etc, & it seems that it is most at peace in places where Elves dwell, or once dwelled, which simply emphasises their relationship with nature. Quote:
So, it was necessary to ensure that they were no longer physically present in the world (outside Mordor). CT points out that the 'shadow' which passed across the stars in this chapter couldn't have been one of the Nazgul, as they had not yet crossed the River - which implies that at that point, while the Fellowship were journeying south, the Nazgul were still in Mordor or its environs. Of course, I could be completely wrong in these speculations! |
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#17 | ||
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
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I too have always very much liked the animus shown the Fellowship by the mountain. The ‘living land’ that is so much a part of LotR is shown here to be no beneficent force for good – no sheltering ‘mother nature’ but an utterly alien and unforgiving presence in the world that you take lightly only at your peril. The ambiguity of the mountain’s allegiance nicely dovetails with Treebeard’s claim not to be on “anyone’s side”. I mean, it makes sense for the mountain not to care who wins the contest between good and evil, since both sides treat the mountain the same way (as a source of mithril or something to be got over when you are heading out for your journey into history).
As to the nine: according to some Anglo-Saxon texts that deal with the symbolic function of numbers, nine is the number of incompletion and forward-looking action (it’s not 10, but it can be with just one more number added on). It’s interesting that Frodo will be left with nine fingers at the end of his journey, is it not…? Also, the number 20 is the number of fulfillment and completion; of totality and completed labour. All told there are, of course, 20 rings (9 for Men + 7 for Dwarves + 3 for Elves + the 1 = 20). Thank you davem for the quote about batmen – it was tremendously illuminating! Although I must admit that I found that rather condescending tone of the officer toward his batman to be somewhat disturbing, particularly when put beside some of the earlier moments in LotR in which we can almost see Frodo responding to Sam in the same way. The bit about the batman following the officer out of the trench and being beside him when he falls…it just seems to have the odour of a man who is taking his ‘subordinate’ a bit for granted. I mean, can you imagine that writer cutting a batman who actually ran for cover some slack? There’s one other aspect of this chapter that I would like to raise, and that is the question of story-telling and, more importantly, story-ending. This is one of the most wildly important ideas in the book, and it doesn’t really start until this chapter. One of my favourite all-time moments in LotR begins when Bilbo asks: Quote:
It’s up to Sam to bring things back down to earth and point out that at the end of this story the characters will have to face what everyone faces at the supposed ‘end’ of their stories (which are really just stages in an ongoing process of living). In a sense these three hobbits in this one little exchange are enacting the entire nature and history of Middle-Earth. On the one hand is the desire for a happy ending that may once have been possible, before the music of creation was marred by evil and things began to fall apart; more significantly, before Feanor et al swore that blasted oath. On the other hand is the despair that threatens to overcome, and does overcome, too many people who begin to believe that the happy ending is impossible (as opposed to unlikely) and thus pave the way for evil. It’s up to the people like Sam to realise that the true hope lies in working toward a proper ‘home’ for oneself at the end of the journey – neither getting lost and blinded in a continual backward look to the ‘good old days’ when everything was bright and happy endings seemed the norm (like the Elves, constantly yearning for the Sunless Years and trying to preserve the past despite the fact that the world is becoming the site for new stories and new tales by new tellers), nor giving in to the despairing conviction that there is only one bad end possible (which is both Sauron’s line and being). It’s up to Elrond to point out the one very important thing about stories – it is something that Sam will later realise on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol – that the people in the stories do not know how they will end: Quote:
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#18 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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For an interesting interpretation (by a Christian Periodical) on hope and faith in
Middle-earth (but which really draws on "The Stairs Of Cirith Ungol" rather then "The Ring Heads South" for a source: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...0/ai_107760354 And a quote from "The Stairs Of Cirith Ungol", but one that can be extended to this chapter, and all the way back to the Silmarillion and past Bilbo's adventure: Quote:
![]() be a bit relevant to above themes of a story going on and of hope?
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#19 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Interesting thoughts about story endings, Fordim! Tuor has already connected them to the end of the story, and I'd like to point out a previous quote, one that I like very much. In 'The Council of Elrond', Bilbo already mentioned the subject:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#20 | |
Scion of The Faithful
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It's funny how oaths made this chapter reveal much.
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![]() It doesn't mention anything about actually destroying the Ring, which is just as well, as he is not the one to accomplish the mission. But he did take the Ring to Mt. Doom. But how come Elrond did not mention the destruction of the Ring as part of Frodo's charge - after all, that's what they talked about in the previous chapter, right? Was he given some super-foresight to see that the Ring will not be destroyed by this Hobbit? Or perhaps he thought the whole affair undoable from the beginning, and like Frodo, he only thinks that they could go as far as their strengths could carry them before the Enemy overwhelms them. Hope in Middle-earth is a crazy concept. But it does make for great stories. ![]() Nine. Might not the number nine represents a totality of sorts? The Aratar, the nine ships of Elendil the Faithful, and the Fellowship all represent a consummation of one sort or another. I don't know about the Nazgûl though. Can anyone help me here?
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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#21 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Esty, you wrote:
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![]() Who among us finds the final line of the book "happy"? Joyful, yes, but there is a sense that as fulfilling as Sam's life will be now, it is somehow lesser and smaller. The whole story "winds down" rather than ends, and there are more stories to be told (the Appendices) not all of them entirely happy. That's why I hold to my opinion that Bilbo, much as I love the old fellow, is naive -- perhaps even dangerously naive, since the only other people in the book who share his belief in endings, that it can all wrap up and 'stop' just the way one wants it -- are figures like Sauron or Saruman!
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#22 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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Oh, but I think happy endings are possible in Middle earth, because whether the ending is 'happy' or not depends on the individual's own judgement, not on some external criteria. And it doesn't matter whether we as readers would consider the ending to be happy, either.
It seems to me that Bilbo would have said that his story had a happy ending, & so would Sam. Their parts of the story had happy endings, whether the story as a whole did or not. In short, I don't think happiness is something objective. Quote:
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#23 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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#24 | ||||
Cryptic Aura
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#25 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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#26 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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#27 | |
Cryptic Aura
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#28 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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I don't know, it strikes me that the two month's time before the Fellowship sets out makes perfect sense given the fact that they have no idea who might be out there looking for them. I mean, they've only just found out that Saruman is not to be trusted, and the Wraiths invaded the north of Eriador without anyone having any warning -- who is to say that there isn't a host of orcs out patrolling the southlands or the passes of the Mountains?
There were indeed some "real eye-openers" at the Council even for Gandalf and Elrond. Like all good commanders they aren't about to undertake their most important mission until they've made sure they have good intelligence. As we find out from Gandalf, it's a 40 day march to the Gap of Rohan, so it would make sense that it would take at least two months for the Elves to thoroughly scour all the lands of Eriador to make sure that the Ringbearer is not going to be picked off in an instant.
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#29 |
Cryptic Aura
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Right, right, Fordim. I have to remember that Napoleon's and Hitler's experience in Russia hasn't happened yet.
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#30 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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Was Aragorn aware of some specific menace, or just of a vague feeling of danger? And how much did Gandalf actually know? Why was he so insistent on passing through Moria - unless he knew of the Balrog, & the need to confront it, why would he even want to pass through? If, as Elrond had said of Gandalf: Quote:
What we see, at the very least, is a growing argument between the two leaders of the Fellowship. How much had Gandalf told Aragorn about what he desired to do, & more importantly, why he wanted to do it? Was Gandalf really willing to lead the Ringbearer into Moria, knowing the danger? And was Aragorn trying to protect the Ringbearer, & help to ensure the survival of the Quest by demanding that every alternative route be tried first? Why was Gandalf so willing to risk everything to enter the Mines? Did he feel that whatever the danger was, confronting it was worth risking the Quest to face & defeat it? It seems to me, that if Gandalf felt it was so necessary to enter Moria & face whatever was there, he could have left the party & gone in alone - but he didn't seem to consider that, so its not simply the case that he felt he had to go through Moria, but that all of them, including the Ringbearer, had to go through. Of course, it could be simply that he felt that the way through the Mines would offer the greatest chance of concealment, so maybe all this speculation is wrong, but it seems to me there is a certain desperation on Gandalf's part to actually enter the Mines, which is not accountable for merely by a desire for secrecy. I think what we also see is a dislike on Gandalf's part over not being in charge. Perhaps a reluctance to surrender authority - as if the 'old' powers of Middle earth were reluctant to let go. |
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#31 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Davem wrote:
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But now we're getting ahead two chapters. |
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#32 | |
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,547
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I had no time to read this chapter before last night and I see that I have missed out on a lot of good discussion.
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If you think about it, there really were no good options. Neither Gandalf nor Aragorn wanted to cross the Gap of Rohan, and with good reason. Taking the Ring so close to Saruman the traitor would not be a good plan of action. The Redhorn Pass in the dead of winter doesn't exactly sound like a joy trip. Even without Caradhras' special storm for them, it would have been bitter cold and snowy. And Moria, where there was obviously some kind of danger, as the Dwarves had received no news from Balin. However, I suppose Gandalf thought that Moria might have gone all right for them, if there were only Orcs and such and there were no mishaps. Besides, Gandalf had been through before, and obviously there was the element of secrecy added in. Undoubtedly, Sauron would be watching by now since the Nazgul had had two whole months to return to Mordor, as others have touched on. Gandalf's choice of Moria over Caradhras seems plausible to me. |
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#33 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
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Related to earth features such as Caradhras seeming to have some kind of
consciousness, I've always found this rumination by Legolas to be curious: Quote:
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Aure Entuluva! |
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#34 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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I tend to agree..... In some ways Legolas is an underdeveloped character, and says little especially during this phase of the journey (probably not unrelated to the fact that he hadn't quite " found his place" at this stage in the early drafts), but one of the things that gives him a depth beyond being the token keen sighted sharp-shooting elf, is his sensitivity to place. It can be seen here, will be seen a little later when he asks if they hear the voice of Nimrodel , in Fangorn and in Minas Tirith "The deeds of men wil lout last us Gimli". Maybe it is partly because he is an immortal being born into Middle Earth realtively late... the situation of the Sindar and silvan Elves at he end of the third age is rather different to that of the high. For them passing oversea is not "Going home" but something they do when desperate - like the people of Nimrodel. Yet if they remain they will diminish. Thinking about it - a lot of Legolas' speech is melancholy - if it isn't excessively light, flippant almost. At these times maybe he is overcompensating..
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#35 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: May 2006
Location: East Texas
Posts: 38
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#36 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom
Posts: 273
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If Frodo was star-gazing in our world, what he saw would probably be Mars.
There are other red stars low in the south in mid-winter, such as the ones in the constelations of Orion and Taurus but they are much less bright and not very obvious when close to a full moon. . |
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#37 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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I agree, Selmo, and being Mars, a planet, which changes its distance in relation to the Earth, would explain why it shines brighter over the course of several days/nights. Since Tolkien was always aware of the significance of natural objects and their relationship to mythology, I would interpret his use of Mars (the god of war) increasing as a sign of impending war. I could also imagine the red light in the sky evoking the image of a red burning eye.
Thanks for picking up that interesting detail, Texadan!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#39 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: May 2006
Location: East Texas
Posts: 38
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I could not find how the stars were made though I'm fairly sure I've read it before. But the Sun and Moon originated from a fruit of Laurelin and a bloom of Telperion. Is there a place for planets as we know them in Tolkien's cosmology?
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#40 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: May 2006
Location: East Texas
Posts: 38
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My apologies. I did not read far enough or closely enough in the article you linked to before my last post. The creation of the stars are given there. |
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