Miscellaneous stuff in the Appendices

[Arvegil145]

Should we create a sort of 'miscellaneous' part of the Appendices? Dealing with lore that otherwise has no place otherwise.

Several things come to mind:


1) The Description of Tol Eressea: while Aelfwine/Eriol (and more so the Cottage of Lost Play, limpe, human children visiting Eressea, Faring Forth, etc.) were abandoned, that doesn't really mean that many details of Eressea, nowhere else to be found, were abandoned too:

Let's start with settlements:

a) Tathrobel: references to Tathrobel still appear in the 1950's (Morgoth's Ring, 'Second Phase', pp. 199-200), though the name itself is not mentioned - but the preamble mentioned there is almost completely unchanged from the one in The Lost Road, p. 203:

These histories were written by Pengolod the Wise of Gondolin, both in that city before its fall, and afterwards at Tathrobel in the Lonely Isle, Toleressëa, after the return unto the West.

b) Cortirion: references to Cortirion still appear in the 1937 (The Lost Road), p. 334:

Of whom was Eriol one, that men named Ælfwine, and he alone returned and brought tidings of Cortirion to the Hither Lands.

HOWEVER - in his cursory emendations to the Silmarillion in 1958, which CT doesn't give in full, there's this line from The War of the Jewels, p. 246:

The corrections to the manuscript, carried out as it appears in two stages (before and after the making of the typescript), are mostly fairly minor, and a few so slight as not to be worth recording. I refer to the numbered paragraphs in V.324-34.

What CT is referencing here is the 1937 'Silmarillion', which I gave above - noteworthy in all of this is that there is no mention of 'Cortirion' being excised among the paragraphs mentioned in the quote.


And before someone inevitably points out that Avallone was the chief and easternmost city in Aman (which is true) - Cortirion was demoted to a mere 'town' in some of the writings in The Shaping of Middle-earth, p. 41:

...and remembered things he had heard in Cortirion, the town of the Elves in Tol Eressëa.

Besides, I find it extremely unlikely that there weren't other settlements in Eressea other than Avallone.


2) Poems dealing with Eressea (which should be edited of course to reflect the later mythos):

a) Kortirion among the Trees (which was updated in the '60s I believe)

b) An Evening in Tavrobel

c) Over Old Hills and Far Away

d) Tinfang Warble


3) Which leaves all the other Eressean regions and settlements, and their decriptions, applicable to our project. For example:

a) the settlement of Estirin
b) the settlement of Celbaros
c) the settlement at Fladweth Amrod
d) town of Taruithorn
e) region of Alalminore
f) Pine of Tavrobel
g) island of Tol Withernon
h) bridge of Tram Nybol
i) the House of the Hundred Chimneys
j) heath of the Sky-roof
k) the rivers Afros, Gruir, Gliding Water and the Brook of Glass
l) Falasse Numea, the western shore of Eressea
m) meads of Dorwinion

All of these have beautiful descriptions that it would be a pity to omit.

Heck, maybe even Meril as the Lady of Tol Eressea could be kept, in her korin of elms (other than her interactions with Eriol, of course) - perhaps even Littleheart, son of Voronwe.




Tl;dr we have so little information about Eressea, and none of which I mentioned above contradicts the later legendarium (except perhaps some of the names) - so I vote to keep it.

Likewise, my intention isn't to copy/paste everything from the mostly early descriptions of Eressea - it's simply to 'update' it to the best of our abilities: in the same manner as, say, 'The Fall of Gondolin' or 'The Nauglafring', and make it in a sense similar to The Description of Numenor.

P.S. There is also additional information from Parma Eldalamberon issues (mostly dealing with demographics of Eressea, and the geographical distribution of the various factions of the Elves; as well as their tongues), but my hands are already hurting from typing. Besides, I've got many such weird texts in mind.

[Arvegil145]

Another strange fragment comes to mind:

That weird prose fragment in the 2014 Adventures of Tom Bombadil, 'Tom Bombadil: A Prose Fragment', written in the 1920s (which, to be frank, I'm not really sure is applicable to the legendarium):

It happened in the days of King Bonhedig, before the wild men came hither out of Ond, or the dark men out of Euskadi, or the fair haired warriors with long iron swords across the narrow water; in fact before any one ever mentioned in fantastic history or sober legend had yet arrived in Britain (as it was called in those days), a long time ago, and before the most far-reaching prophecies, of which there was a multitude, had even glimpsed Arthur in the distant and incredible future.

Nonetheless things already happened here and the island was full enough of peoples and other inhabitants, and had already suffered many invasions and changed (as since) everything but its name several times over. King Bonhedig sat upon the throne of the Kingdom of Bon & Barroc which stretched for many miles on either side of the Tames as they called the chief river of the South. There we will leave him, for he concerns us only as a convenient method of dating. He reigned for fifty years only, so you will not be far out in whatever part of his reign you place these events.

Tom Bombadil was the name of one of the oldest inhabitants of, the kingdom; but he was a hale and hearty fellow. Four foot high in his boots he was, and three foot broad; his beard went below his knees; his eyes were keen and bright, and his voice deep and melodious. He wore a tall hat with a blue feather; his jacket was blue, and his boots were yellow.

[Findegil]

The description of Tol Eressëa: I agree that much of what you mention is useable for our work. But I doubt that the Appandecies are the right place for it. I would rather consider to extant the sub-chapter Of the Passing of the Elves in chapter 35 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath.

About the Bombadil prose fragment: As much as I like to include any snipet of information we have, I at the moment don't see how we could include this. I am not an expert in legendary Britain history, but I think, King Bonhedig was taken by Tolkien from that. So the information that snipet gives us is only that Bombadil was still around (and as to be expected unchanged) after what once was the Shire of the Hobbits had become a part of the England of legendary King Bonhedig.
Beside that Bombadil is at it stands right now not even mentioned in our work. Including the prose fragment would call for some revision to include him in other places for sure. This is of course not an argument by itself against the inclusion of the proase fragemnt, but it shows that Bombadil was not thought to be in important ingredent to our work.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The description of Tol Eressëa: I agree that much of what you mention is useable for our work. But I doubt that the Appandecies are the right place for it. I would rather consider to extant the sub-chapter Of the Passing of the Elves in chapter 35 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath.

About the Bombadil prose fragment: As much as I like to include any snipet of information we have, I at the moment don't see how we could include this. I am not an expert in legendary Britain history, but I think, King Bonhedig was taken by Tolkien from that. So the information that snipet gives us is only that Bombadil was still around (and as to be expected unchanged) after what once was the Shire of the Hobbits had become a part of the England of legendary King Bonhedig.
Beside that Bombadil is at it stands right now not even mentioned in our work. Including the prose fragment would call for some revision to include him in other places for sure. This is of course not an argument by itself against the inclusion of the proase fragemnt, but it shows that Bombadil was not thought to be in important ingredent to our work.

Respectfully
Findegil

1) I disagree about including the information about Eressea in the chapter 35 - that chapter has a sense of closure which shouldn't be cluttered with random stuff about Eressea: though it might have a 'See also - Appendix: The Description and Peoples of Tol Eressea' as a note.

2) About the 'Bombadil fragment': perhaps we should also include The Adventures of Tom Bombadil somewhere? And if not, maybe we should add this fragment as a cheeky epilogue to our project


P.S. Also, I think I found the PE material on Eressea, which I'll post soon.

[Findegil]

Okay, I agree to your argument. I would than propose a more profound change to include these information into the narrative: At the beginning of Volume II we have an introduction sentence: ‘These were the dark years for Men of Middle-earth, but the years of the glory of Númenor. Of events in Middle-earth the records are few and brief, and their dates are often uncertain.’ Followed by the first chapter-title The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves. I would than shift that chapter title to come directly before SP-SL-04 ‘Others of the Eldar there were who crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in that age …‘. Thus we produce a longer intro that has even an untiteled sub-chapter break (‘* * *’). In it we have as the last passage: ‘Upon the shores of the Gulf of Lhûn the Elves built their havens, and named them Mithlond; and there they held many ships, for the harbourage was good. From the Grey Havens the Eldar ever and anon set sail, fleeing from the darkness of the days of Earth; for by the mercy of the Valar the Firstborn could still follow the Straight Road and return, if they would, to their kindred in Eressëa and Valinor beyond the encircling seas.’ Here we could with some inventive editing put in the description of Tol Eressëa, I think.
Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Okay, I agree to your argument. I would than propose a more profound change to include these information into the narrative: At the beginning of Volume II we have an introduction sentence: ‘These were the dark years for Men of Middle-earth, but the years of the glory of Númenor. Of events in Middle-earth the records are few and brief, and their dates are often uncertain.’ Followed by the first chapter-title The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves. I would than shift that chapter title to come directly before SP-SL-04 ‘Others of the Eldar there were who crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in that age …‘. Thus we produce a longer intro that has even an untiteled sub-chapter break (‘* * *’). In it we have as the last passage: ‘Upon the shores of the Gulf of Lhûn the Elves built their havens, and named them Mithlond; and there they held many ships, for the harbourage was good. From the Grey Havens the Eldar ever and anon set sail, fleeing from the darkness of the days of Earth; for by the mercy of the Valar the Firstborn could still follow the Straight Road and return, if they would, to their kindred in Eressëa and Valinor beyond the encircling seas.’ Here we could with some inventive editing put in the description of Tol Eressëa, I think.
Respectfully
Findegil

Given the amount of stuff relating to Tol Eressea from the various stages of the legendarium - I'm still in favor of keeping most of it in an appendix (especially with the information from PE that I'll give tomorrow - too tired right now).

BTW - do you think that we can still keep Ingil/Ingwion/Ingwil's arrival to Eressea after the War of Wrath, and his foundation of the town of Cortirion, including his role as the leader in rebuilding the Elvish 'civilization' (so to speak) on the island, as well as his eventual return to Valinor?

[Findegil]

I am reluctant of an Appendix, because what we colleted in these so fare are rather comments and additional (unusable) source taexts. But if what you propose to include proves to be so, then an Appendix would be the right place.

Ingil: Yes, I think that we can keep him in that role, so maybe we have to careful not to gainsay the triumphant return of the Vanyar.

But the working assumption could be: Seen that many Elves of Beleriand would like to stay on Eressëa he returned to help them establish their society. (He was free to do so since his father Ingwë still rulled the Vanyar - and all other Elves - in Valinor.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

I apologize for the late reply, something came up in the meantime.

Regardless, on the subject of the PE stuff I regret to inform that 95%+ of it won't work, on a closer read.