![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
![]() |
#1 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]()
This chapter begins with a “weather report” – a fine day after the battle! The readers join Legolas and Gimli for their entrance to the city – a rare departure from the hobbit point-of-view. Their friendship shows to fine advantage, though their differences are still marked. Each sees the city with his people’s eyes, and both offer their cooperation for its rebuilding. They also see men differently – what do you think of their respective opinions?
Legolas’ ability to see more than meets the eye shows several times in this chapter, beginning with his first meeting with Imrahil. Later we notice that he saw Éowyn’s feelings for Aragorn when they left for the Paths of the Dead; apparently, Gimli didn’t. We also read of his feelings upon seeing the seagulls, several times; Galadriel’s words are fulfilled – what are your feelings upon reading this? Merry and Gimli protest that the world would be duller and that the Elves are still needed by other races. Tolkien uses one of his typical techniques of telling the story after the event here; we didn’t know what happened on the way to Pelargir, since suspense was vital to surprise us with the coming of the ships. However, for all those who want to know more, he lets Legolas and Gimli tell the hobbits details. How is the Elf’s part of the story different than the Dwarf’s? We have a poem, sung by Legolas. As far as I can tell, it’s free poetry, since it has neither rhyme nor alliteration, but perhaps some of our literature experts can tell us more about it. Besides Imrahil, who does have an important role to play at this part of the narrative, another very minor character is named – Angbor, Lord of Lamedon, called “the fearless” by Aragorn. Why do you think he is especially brave, and is that important to the events at Pelargir and afterwards? We get additional glimpses of Aragorn’s character as well – Gimli and Legolas speak of his ability to lead by the sheer force of his strong will – and by the love of his followers. Here too Legolas sees deeper: Quote:
We have another example of the important role of nature, in this case the wind, aiding the ships’ progress, enabling them to reach the city on time. The second part of the chapter takes the readers along to the decision-making meeting of the Captains and Gandalf. I find it very interesting to see how Gandalf takes Denethor’s words, not rejecting them, but finding out how much actual truth there is in them, and then interpreting them differently than the Steward had meant them. Here we see Gandalf as the one who explains the possibilities to the others, and their respect for him and his judgement causes them to agree, though his words are not ‘prudent’, as he says. One passage of his speech strikes me as being very similar to what he told Frodo, way back in the Shire, about making the best of the times and tasks given to us: Quote:
It’s very interesting to see the replies of the others and the reasons they give for agreeing. What do you think of those respective reasons? The planning is not reckless, as Minas Tirith is not left undefended. What is your opinion of the military strategy decided upon? With the acknowledgement of their hopeless situation, humanly speaking, the chapter closes.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 | ||||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
![]() ![]() |
This chapter divides neatly into two, & in a way its interesting to compare them. The first half is basically backward looking - it is Gimli & Legolas recounting the events of their journey from Erech to Minas Tirith to Merry & Pippin. The second half of the chapter looks forward - the Captains of the West make their plans.
I think this is significant in that it is Gimli, a dwarf & Legolas, an Elf, who dominate the first half of the chapter. Both are members of races whoo are passing (or will pass) from Middle-earth. Their view of the future is pessimistic, & Legolas seems even more pessimistic than Gimli - in the short term: Quote:
Quote:
As to the longer term, their positions seem reversed: Quote:
The defeat of the enemy at Pelargir shows Aragorn in a different light. He is not seen by the inhabitants of the lands through which he leads his force as their champion or liberator - he is the King of the Dead, a figure of fear. Indeed, in an earlier draft he is called by them ‘’Lord of the Ring(s) (in that draft Galadriel was to have given Nenya to him to be the wedding ring he gave to Finduilas, the ‘proto-Arwen’). Aragorn would have been very ‘close’ to Sauron symbolically - ruler of the Dead, & even bearer of Sauron’s title. the words of Gimli & Legolas seem to point up this similarity: Quote:
Quote:
Yet something else happened on the riverside - Legolas heard the crying of the gulls & something awoke in him which cannot ever go back to sleep. He may have stepped out of the Elvish world to play his part in the events of the War of the Ring, but the cry of the gulls has called him back. Even the pleas of his friend cannot call him back to the world. Quote:
I’ll come back to the second part of the chapter later - if no-one beats me to it. |
||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 | ||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Quote:
Gimli talks of stone while Legolas talks of gardens. Gimli talks of military might and leadership while Legolas talks of ancestry. Gimli talks of Men lacking consistency of effort while Legolas talks of hope in the future. Here are two differing viewpoints but both are right. Minas Tirith needs both stronger walls and more gardens to be both well protected and beautiful, to fulfill its potential. Aragorn's strength comes both from his honed skills and his nobility. Without his ancestry he could not be King, but without the leadership qualities he has acquired he would not be the King that he could be, he maybe even could not be King at all, as it is his leadership which gets him through the trials he must face. And Aragorn is the latest from a line of Men who have been diminished, but his Kingship could be the beginning of a renemwal of that line. When Legolas says that the deeds of Men "will outlast us, Gimli" these words are tinged with sadness. It acknowledges that Elves and Dwarves will not be around for much longer, that Men will be the dominant race in Middle-earth. Even Merry notices that this may come to pass, and he doesn't seem to look upon the prospect with much acceptance: Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Gordon's alive!
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | |||
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Tottering about in the Wild
Posts: 130
![]() |
This is a difficult chapter for me to get through, probably because it's somewhat like 'The Council of Elrond' in FOTR: structurally, really really important because it ties up loose ends and sets up so much of the remainder of the book...but I don't seem to be as engaged in this chapter as I am in most of the rest of LOTR.
I'll take up Davem's challenge and focus on the debate between the Captains about the next step. The thing I find most interesting here is the choice in front of them. As Gandalf says, Quote:
Quote:
Another thing I've noticed about this chapter is that even if the Ringbearer succeeds, Sauron will not be completely destroyed. Quote:
Sauron after the fall of Barad Dur: "I'm not dead yet!"
__________________
Not all those who wander are lost . . . because some of us know how to read a map. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | ||||||||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Again, we see Aragorn's pro-active defiance of Sauron - he declares that he has shown himself to Sauron in the Palantir. Basically, he is telling his fellow leaders that he has thrown down the gauntlet to Sauron. In Frodo's words he is saying 'I purpose to enter Mordor - I do not ask anyone to go with me.' Or in his own words to Eomer: 'I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn: willl you aid me, or thwart me?' Everything about Aragorn's behaviour seems to be an attempt to make Sauron believe he has the Ring. Quote:
Again, Gandalf reiterates the hopelessness of their position: Quote:
Quote:
Eomer's response is simple & to the point: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | ||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
![]() ![]() |
Going against what we might expect of fiction in terms of entertainment, Tolkien presents the reader with the proceedings of in-depth meetings or Councils in LotR; they convey a lot of useful information, and they are intended to show how decisions are reached, but they might be expected to make for dull reading. Meetings in general are neither action filled nor are they magical, but Tolkien writes of them in a compelling style. In both this chapter and in The Council of Elrond he manages to present fascinating and complex discussions. Not only that, but he also uses the proceedings to explain to the reader how seemingly reckless plans are made. Arguments for and against different actions are broken down and dispensed of with care, and without boring the reader. I think this reflects his own skills in presenting arguments. As an example, On Fairy Stories demonstrates how he could take a topic and break it down into relevant areas, discussing each and examining, then dismissing, arguments until he came to a conclusion.
Gandalf takes an interesting role in this council. Is he the chairperson? Or the invited expert? At this stage it might be expected that Aragorn, or perhaps Imrahil acting as Steward, would lead discussion but it is Gandalf who does so. Perhaps this is as he is relatively impartial compared to the two Men who would make obvious candidates to take the lead. It is also a credit to them that they allow Gandalf to do this and do not immediately seek the ‘power’ of leading the talk. In this chapter Gandalf demonstrates his sheer mastery of ‘counsel’. Without any preamble he gets straight to the point and shows those assembled exactly the situation that they face. He even goes as far as to begin by addressing the situation as negatively as possible, yet he does this in order to have the leaders gathered there consider the options realistically: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Only after preparing the ground for his strategy does he invite the others to speak and contribute; he has gained their interest and now he describes what he proposes, his ‘counsel’. But this is no ordinary ‘counsel’. Gandalf has prepared the ground to present his argument carefully and skilfully. He has shown the group the worst that can happen, he has shown them the despair inherent in their situation, has dismissed the alternatives and then he gives them what he proposes, which is a suicide mission. In our position having read the book, we know that events will not turn out that way, but viewed at this point, what Gandalf suggests is madness. Gandalf builds his words up into a crescendo at this point: Quote:
Aragorn is first to speak having considered the words and he has been stirred to approval. He answers for himself alone. He says that Gandalf’s proposal ought to be approved, but that everyone must make up their own mind. Gandalf has appealed directly to each listener’s personal sense of duty; they all quickly follow up Aragorn in mandating the proposal. Gandalf gets the approval of all the leaders concerned before allowing room for debate, the time to get into the details which could have bogged the meeting down. He is the kind of chairperson every such council or meeting should have, as he unequivocally states his position and seeks approval before anyone can get into details and arguments. Time is short, and he knows this. And maybe this shows why strong-willed leaders such as Denethor did not like Gandalf’s ‘counsel’; he is skilled at getting the point across and an expert in persuading an audience to his view. Yet he does not give the appearance of ‘forcing’ anyone into approval. To disagree with counsel like that might make any leader seem churlish, even if they were strong minded enough to argue against Gandalf.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,358
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Legolas and Gimli have a curious thing going on where anytime they have a polite disagreement and one of them runs out of arguments they still want to put in the last word and answer with a vague statement like "to that Elves don't know the answer" or "Dwarves do not look that far ahead" (paraphrased from memory). It seems to work in their weird relationship dynamic that whoever loses the debate gets to have the satisfaction of the last word, and everyone is happy.
The flashback to the remainder of Aragorn's story is not just demanded by the curiosity of him showing up unexpectedly on enemy ships, but is also hinted at by his words to Merry at the Houses of Healing about clearing his path with fire and sword and not having eaten or slept. If we weren't impressed by him in The Paths of the Dead, we have to be now. We get a sense of the terror of the Dead and the strength required to keep them in obedience through more eyes now: not just Gimli but all the people that they meet, friend and foe alike. I believe the most terrified people during the attack of the dead were the chained rowing slaves, experiencing the same fear as the others around them but unable to act on the impulse to run or hide. It's the same chains that saved them though, preventing them from jumping overboard in the same madness as their masters. Though we know practically nothing of Angbor, the fact that he stayed to meet Aragorn automatically makes him a likable character - a brave and responsible leader.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Dead Serious
|
![]()
Tolkien's narrative choice to make the arrival of the black fleet at the Battle of the Pelennor a eucatastrophe is the cause of this chapter. For that reason, half of it really isn't in the movies, not in this position anyway. It's the sort of chapter that would make a killer flashback episode in a television series, especially if you consider that what's going on "at present" (i.e. planning the assault on the Black Gate) is directly tied to what happened "in the past" (Aragorn's march through the Paths and his victories in the South.
"The Last Debate" is very much a high-level view of the plot, looking at the War from Sauron's level more than any other. Arguably, to Sauron, Aragorn's victory at Pelargir was more significant than the Pelennor. This was a supernatural victory and one made by the candidate he most suspects to have the Ring. Meanwhile, the Pelennor--from Sauron's perspective--was more of a mixed bag. Losing his cloud cover AND the Witch-king in one battle is ominous, but it was an acceptable--and temporary--setback once the Rohirrim overthrew Saruman and Aragorn succeeded at Pelargir. And, from Sauron's point of view, it was luck not skill on the part of the West, since Gandalf appears to have been quite ineffective during it. If Gandalf quails to face the Witch-king and Aragorn has the Ring, this is good news for Sauron.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |