Literary Devices & such for Revised Silmarillion

[lindil]

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Well , as a few of us are talking about a live Silmarillion Forum {see &quot;the Project is still...&quot;}
I thought it timely to introduce a few preliminary questions I think we shall have to consider.
I have no strong opinion re: any of these

1] do we want to use literary devices to link disparate sections [i.e. Silm. Turin Turambar W? Unfinished Tales Turin} something like
&quot;Fragments of this story were preserved ingreater detail, from Rivendell [OR UNNAMED SOUCE]yet alas there is much thathas been handed down in theRed book and Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish that is incomplete.
2] Eriol/Aelfwine or the links themselves[ in whole or part] w/out the Eriol 'Myth'
I rather like the tale in HoME2 which I have read a couple of times but am unclear what happensw/ it in Vols 4-5 it seems to be gone by Morgoth's Ring, but maybe it could still be of some use w/out the england thing.
3] Appendixes-seems like JRRT had some ideas for this[Finrod and Andreth] and itseems to be a good spot for an elvish dictionary [ if we ever get that far !]

well hopefully others have some more salient and developed thoughts about this and related ieas; my aim w/ this was just to generate some input.


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[Mithadan]

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Re: Literary Devices &amp; such for Revised Silmarillion

I feel that the best way to present such materials is in the form of annotations or an &quot;appendix&quot;. I am extremely hesitant about engaging in actual &quot;rewriting&quot; or the creation of detailed stories based upon hints or outlines in JRRT's work. In my view, this goes back to the unsettled issue of what is our goal. A canon, to me, would be historical in nature, clearing up (or more accurately stating supported positions on) inconsistencies and filling in gaps in the Silm. -- a scholarly work rather than literary. I would advocate against creating new &quot;texts&quot;. The writing of new texts would more properly fall within the category of fan fiction rather than a canon. Such fan fiction-type writing would have value but only if separated from the &quot;canon&quot;. I view the canon as more of a reference work.

BTW - the &quot;canon&quot; concept is being attacked again over at the White Council (xenite). To his credit, MM has started a second thread suggesting that there exists both room and a reason for a canon. If we can ever begin setting pen to paper, I wonder if access to the underlying debates should be provided so that readers can reach their own critical conclusions.

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 8/29/00 8:15:28 am

[lindil]

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lit. dev.

It is a glad day in that the first post was in the Silm. section and not books !
I tend to favor not rewriting/supplementing texts lthough I am undecided about editorial links masquerading as part of the story to smooth out the transitions.
I personally wish for moreof a literary production -something to be able to sit down and read through w/out a lot of HoME style notes [or at least tucked way back at the end when all of JRRT's writing has been finished.
I am in no way saying I am 'right' -just preferences.
I heartily concur w/ an original post I have [hardcopy only I am afraid] from M. Martinez re: the idea that there could be many Silmarillions , some using fan fiction, some using 'Myth's Transformed', some using only JRRT's writings, etc.You are def. right in stating that we have to figure out our parameters [and then get pen to paper!] Btw I def. think the Fan-fiction one needs to be left alone till some canon is assembled, or confusion would be the result.
Michael has graciously resonded to my asking to post mention of our project on the white council board - I assume that would extend to all - so don't be shy.
As to getting some of his ideas [maybe in the articles/essay's section [I don't recall it's official name ] would be great as Michael has an excellent gift for summarizing and analysis, and his reflections would -if read as an intro say to a group chat/hash it out sesssion -help to keep things focused and save a lot of going around already charted territory.
But any decision onhaving M.'s essays here would obviously need to be between Ron and Michael.
Well I am off to see what the rarely dull W. Council is up to with the 'Canon'.

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[Saulotus]

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Re: lit. dev.

I would avoid fan-fiction dudes. If ya are tryin to assemble a 'correct' SILMARILLION, fan-fic is NOT the way to go. I would advise taking a medical attitude (since in a sense this is indeed delicate surgery err editing) DO NO HARM! By this I mean as an example: an extended storyline such as Hurin's journey to Doriath. It's a bad idea to take proposed or sketched events and create dialogue and or other narrative events. A FAR better solution (if it's even needed) is to simply insert such material into a Tale of Years or other annalistic form such as Grey Annals. I'd refrain from adding ANYTHING. Subtraction is better. Crazy; I know, but still true. Having every single nuance would be cool and I would love it too, but it would change so much. Take an example from Tolkien's LOTR Appendices. He cut them down, but the info was still there. Can they be fleshed out a little? Sure. Should they be like totally fleshed out? Nope.

What exactly is this rarely dull White Council?

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[Mithadan]

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Literary devices

Agree that we should do some form of annotation and avoid creating text, dialogue, fan-fiction (there is a page here for fan fiction, everything has a place; not saying don't write fan fiction, just don't put it in the canon). Do we have a consensus yet?

Disagree that we shouldn't add to the Silm. Example, the Wanderings of Hurin, the Fall of Doriath, the Fall of Gondolin and the wanderings of its peoples. However, I have severe doubts concerning revisions to the Tale of the Trees (the sun/ moon/ round earth debate) except in the most delicate fashion.

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[Saulotus]

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Re: Literary devices

&gt;<img src=grin.gif ALT=">D"> isagree that we shouldn't add to the Silm.&lt;&lt;

Dude, I think ya misunderstood. Adding back in the finished sections like WOH is prolly fine. Extending it or anything else to create and include new dialogue so as to incorporate any sketched material is the naughtybad. Myself; I personally think a great use and added dimension to Numenor could be obtained from the use of ELENDIL AND HERENDIL IN NUMENOR from LOST ROAD with little to no editing (except 'Gnome' and stuff like that). Does it make it proper that this should go into the story? Depends. I agree on the delicate fashion part you state; and even posted the same thoughts myself. Can the trees be saved? Yup. Can it be done while keeping the story true to intent to Tolkien? Yup. Can even the lamps be saved? Yup. Does everything that was discarded have to remain discarded? Depends. It was discarded for a reason, adding it back would have to also have reason; other than 'Tolkien wrote it so it should go back in'. If the reason for the omission can be identified, and corrected within author's intent, then it could be argued that re-inclusion is warranted. THE HISTORY OF THE AKALLABETH is a good example of this. Christopher identifies and admits that for the SILMARILLION he accidentially used what he thought was the last version of Numenor's fall. He then gives insight to these missing pieces. Could those be added? Youbetcha. (Although I personally liked it written using Numenorean verbage, but that's a PERSONAL choice). This is not the same as going back over the text and editorially correcting passages to ENSURE the stipulation of Balrog wings or no Balrog wings (one example) or other PERSONAL choices (this is re-writing not editing). The only PERSONAL choices I would recommend are those from Tolkien himself.

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[Mithadan]

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Literary devices, etc.

Hi Saulotus - Read your post over at xenite. Don't be frustrated at the light response on your postings in this section of the forum. There are a number of reasons for this. Lindil, who is sort of the spear carrier for this project, is doing an extended computer upgrade and is down for a while. I am simply too busy to discuss the issues you raise in detail. Also, this forum is a bit experimental and traffic is spotty. I suspect that if we ever get going, traffic will increase dramatically. In the meantime the Book forum is much livelier. Don't give up!

I've posted on a lot of Tolkien forums and this one is, in my opinion, the best. Some of the others are kind of &quot;Tolkien lite&quot;. Others are too opinionated or even hostile. Some sort of ignore new posters. Here, the people are friendly, post intelligent questions and opinions, and this forum has a great mix of neophytes and would-be Tolkien scholars. Keep posting!

BTW, one of the reasons I have not given a detailed response to your posts is that I agree with much of what you say. I'll get around to disagreeing with some parts of your posts soon.

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[Saulotus]

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Re: Literary devices, etc.

Oh; not frustrated. More like, this is an active forum right? No worries tho. Disagree all ya like, it was an opinion. I can change those if points are raised that are logical (and I'm looking forward to seeing other opinions on it anyway really). The idea of a 'new' SILMARILLION is very interesting. I noticed that alot of this discussion would/will take place on DALNET. That's fine, 'I' won't go, but 'I' will be happy to communicate thru the forum. Looking forward to discussion on the project.

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[Mithadan]

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Literary devices

Sorry it took so long to repond. My &quot;real&quot; life has been very hectic recently. I am taking the liberty of addressing some of your suggestions from the other Canon thread.

Two issues impact upon any work which we might conduct here. First, how do we distinguish between what JRRT rejected and what he omitted due to compression of the tales? Second, how do we deal with &quot;experimental&quot; matters where JRRT expressed an intent to make changes without clear indication of what he wanted the final product to look like, particularly where the changes would conflict directly with what was previously written?

Examples of the first issue would be The Fall of Gondolin from BoLT 2 and The Lay of Leithien from Lays of Beleriand. Both have great merit and provide a great deal of detail absent from the Silm. However, Gondolin was written in the early 1920s and contains a lot of material that doesn't fit with later conceptions such as metal dragons inhabited by spirits and filled with orcs. Leithien may pose fewer problems, particularly the portions that were rewritten by JRRT later in his life.

Examples of the second issue include the origin of orcs and JRRT's desire to revise the Trees mythology by incorporating a round earth and the sun and moon into ea's creation. JRRT appears to have decided that orcs did not come from elves, a facially simple change, but problematic because orcs pre-date the coming of men in the Silm. Maybe men popped up an age earlier (Feanor would have thrown a major fit). But to deal with this issue is to rewrite, not to annotate and clarify. The round earth issue is much worse. The rewrite would cover the making of the stars, the Trees, the coming of elves, Utumno, the pillars and Angband with possibly the Akallabeth thrown in as well. Do we have the right to tinker to this extent and still use the term &quot;canon&quot;?

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[Saulotus]

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Re: Literary devices

Understood about RL.

Most of these points are already present and answered by Tolkien himself in his essays.

Orcs, as I pointed out on one board somewhere... Even the SILMARILLION shows they were labelled as beasts (see Elwe and dwarven discussion in SIL). The elvish connection was presumed by the Elves.

Other points:
I think working it much as Tolkien himself did with LOTR is the best solution. (i.e. finished product [History etc] then working backwards. Metal constructed Dragons are old concepts replaced. They are then discarded, despite the interestin situation. Trees are rendered viable by a connection Tolkien missed in his own examination (as I pointed out on this board somewhere?). One key is the Dome of Valinor. This is one he established for Elbereth, but also serves in the capacity of the intent of the Trees, namely the lighting of Valinor. Melkor had clouded the world. The sun and moon could not shine through (aside from the idea that the Valar consider the light of the sun 'corrupted'. The light of the trees is 'uncorrupted'. On to the sun and moon created from the trees: also viable without change. Another point missed by Tolkien is that after the removal of Valinor from the 'physical universe' (I believe this is Tolkien's phrase), where does the light of Valinor now germinate from? In any case taken this is a problem area. Essentially, the sun and moon of the trees are NOT the SUN and MOON of Arda, but of Valinor solely, and one that is perfectly compatible with drawings of Valinor and the sun and moon within the atmosphere of earth. This is not re-writing as far as I can tell, but the completion of his own thought processes that seem to have been somehow sidetracked, and within his own thoughts and intent. There are enough references in later material that clearly show the return to a round earth theory. His main problem seems to have been the reconciliation of the sun and moon existing BEFORE the trees, and yet still constructed after the Trees, while trying to keep them the same objects, when the answer was somewhat obvious.

AKALLABETH is already stated by Christopher to have been an older version.

Men are easy as Tolkien seems to have realized that the time lag between awakening and arrival in Beleriand is far too short. How would Feanor know of the awakening of Men?

When taking the information available and working backward, eliminating that which is altered, without adding new material, I'm not sure how that is labeled re-write, but is rather editing. Adding in Trotter the Hobbit to LOTR is re-write.

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[lindil]

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Re: Literary devices

* * * * I started this thread right before my sabbatical and so I did not track its developments however reviewing the contents, it seemed to be the ideal place to keep going w/ our project.
* * * *
* * * * I favor 2 different approaches and am undecided between the 2.
A few of the other approches , I must admit I have [at the present no enthusiasm for].I prob won't have time in this post to review all the previous ones and collect the large #of ideas and suggestions- but I will put down the 2 approaches i have been chewing on the last week especially.


* * * * First off I am not in favor of Fan - fiction as Canon. Although I can legitimately see folks taking it as a starting point for fleshing out area's that JRRT never got around to writing as he might have wished and that this could even be a group approach [w/ an &quot;approved version&quot;]. But this can not be considered anything more than inspired forgery [ of course it could be so good that many would accept it as the real thing- I don't think anyone could start off w/ the goal of writing it as canon].

* * * * That being said one of the approaches certaily might be called Fanfic by some , but I will lay it out and let me know what you think.
* * * * * * * * 1- a conservative approach that only uses JRRT's written texts, it can accomodate minor drafts and revision only by them beingfleshed out enough to sustain replacing text.
I am assuming this exclude Myth's Trans. [but Saulotus , I would be happy to see your attempts and be convinced otherwise.] I think though w/ out seeing examples I would be inclined to use your splicing approach as evidenced in Epilouge an idea of what I mean can be gleaned from the first post in the recent Silm. Outline/Proposal thread.

I would if at all possible like to use the oldest [Lost Tales1&amp;2] and the newest [UT/HoME10-12] to flesh out and correct the 1977 Silm. using it as a convienent and i assume familiar starting point. Updating archaic words [Gnome to Noldor , proper names ,etc.]. After rereading the BoLT Fall of Gondolin I am not sure this can be profitably donbe w/out using the possibly controversial method #...

* * * * * * * * 2- Using the above text splicing method but going beyond replacing individual words ,salvaging more of the older more detailed texts by appropriating JRRT's actual phraseology from later writings.
NOT creating new situations but deleting details that contradict later forms of the text but keeping as much as possible, and harmonizing by deleting some of BoLT's archaism replacing the STYLE w/ actual words and phrases from JRRT's later style. I will try and give a paragraph or so as example in the next day or so.

lindil



</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/25/01 10:31:17 am

[Saulotus]

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Re: Literary devices

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I am assuming this exclude Myth's Trans. [but Saulotus , I would be happy to see your attempts and be convinced otherwise.<hr></blockquote>
Sure. In the meantime would a re-drafting of Of Maeglin suffice as an additional teaser of some of the editing I've done?

Admittedly; these are private copies done to include as much detail as possible without causing textual problems.

It follows more closely the latter idea you present.

And to answer your hinted at question; yes, it can be done using Myths Transformed.

The true question is; since you've seen what amounts to a preview of the process, is it an acceptable approach to take for the project?

Does it sound forced? Does it sound contrived? Or does it flow {hopefully in the style and tone that would have been used had a final draft been reached)? These are the questions that need to be addressed. Anyone can splice and dice, but does it work without having some type of overall sense of what is to be kept and what is to be lost?

This of course insn't what I would consider a 'canon' approach, but as it seems to be the more accepted and striven for approach, it seemed a suitable example.

BTW: you really didn't analyze it and give an honest opinion. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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[Mithadan]

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Re: Literary devices

Saulotus, could you private mail me regarding getting a copy of what you've prepared? I'd like to see it also. Reviewing the recent posts, its impossible to understand what's being proposed or discussed.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: Literary devices

Done and on it's way.

Perhaps with an additional objective opinion, on a piece or pieces that are complete, a fuller idea of the feasibility of the project can be arrived at.

It's hard to invite other firsthand opinions without actually printing such matter here, or privately e-mailing each participant.

But as stated above; this does seem to be the suggested course of action regarding the general direction this project is leaning to take.

I still maintain that even this expanded approach can withstand the 'terrible desrtuction' Myths Transformed would cause.

BTW: Do I think that the work presented and inferred above sent by e-mail is 'canon'? No. Not Even remote. Canon is the skeleton; this is a fully formed thing.

I can give an example of Myths incorporated easily via Athrabeth which includes references to the concepts therein. Of course; there already is a version of Ainulindale that incorporates Myths with no effort on my part at all as DA MAN did it himself.

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[lindil]

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Re: Literary devices

Maeglin would be very interesting.
As to a critique of the Epilouge, I would say that [not having the texts to compare w/. [I don't have any of the Lotr HoME books -but I have all others] and having read the epilouge a couple of times instores in the last few months-that it was very good. I would have left some of the folkier jests of Sam out [if I recall correctly JRRTdid] but the splicing of the main tale w/ the details of rose staying up on her b'day [I think that was in a secondary draft] and seeing the letter was great.
That is exactly the approach I am looking for myself w/ the Silm and 2nd /early 3 rd age tales/histories.
Epilouge is admittedly easier than Fall of Gondolin will be, and not just because of length , but because of stylistic discrepancies that exist even when factual oners do not.

I look forward to maeglin.

Qoute
&quot;Admittedly; these are private copies done to include as much detail as
possible without causing textual problems.

It follows more closely the latter idea you present.&quot;

I will try and discern the sources -but any commentary you provide would be welcome

&quot; And to answer your hinted at question; yes, it can be done using
Myths Transformed.
what can Maeglin ? or all of it[Silm.]

&quot; The true question is; since you've seen what amounts to a preview of
the process, is it an acceptable approach to take for the project? &quot;
Epilouge is great , but it does not encounter the problems that incorporating BoLT material does or incorporating W. of Hurin in and and then returning to compressed Talesand coming up w/ the real death of Thingol.
I wouldn't be suprised if keeping some of CRRT's creations will not start to look attractive when we get there!

&quot; Does it sound forced? Does it sound contrived? Or does it flow
{hopefully in the style and tone that would have been used had a final
draft been reached)? These are the questions that need to be
addressed.
This question is exactly where I think the rubber hits the road, if we want maximum detail and story w/ minimum stylistic distortion. I am interested in at least giving it a whirl and Tour and his coming/fall of Gondolin seems like a good one to cut our collective teeth on,although I am open to most anything . Tour is also good because it is a major story and if we can do it and have a full tale to show others we could conceivably get support for a larger team and because the BoLT Gondolin to my mind screams to follow up the UT tour w/ the changes we imagine JRRT might have made.It cannot be as Good as JRRT [ w/outresorting to incredibly high quality fanfiction] but it has the potential to be alot more satisfying than an abrupt UT halt and then a return to the 77 Silm
Anyone can splice and dice, but does it work without having
some type of overall sense of what is to be kept and what is to be lost?
I think the principles of {a} What was JRRT's last conception that {b} is fleshed out enough to insert into a tale w/ out serious diminuition of the existing stories and {c} does not contradict [here we have to decide] either {1} published LotR {2} other late ideas that have substantial story backing, {3} stuff I havn't forseen!


Mithadan , I have been thinking about the tale of years/annals idea and it brought up a few interesting dilemnas. First off do we see canon as ideas or texts, if it is stories[texts] in a chapter form as per 1977 then all the annal/toy idea gives us is a starting point for further texts and as I think has been demonstrated by many-some ideas could be canonical in that they are JRRT's final thoughts -but may be impossible to include in story/chapter form because JRRT never wrote more than outlines ,which while sufficient perhaps for a chronology is far too little to use as a basis for a literary canon.Sowe could end up ,easily I guess, w/ a canon in theory [annals/TOY] that could not be put into practice [full story form] h, however thet could be a springboard for Fanfiction.
this may indeed be to some the best option.

The other points I have been considering are twofold:
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1&gt; that any writings , such as Epilouge/Maeglin/Tour and his coming/falll of Gondolin, etc. that we come up w/ will help a] generate interest and give people a tangible idea of what we are going for
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp b] it can provide future materials for a greater internet Tolkien Community moot of sorts - once a serious # of folks have seen and contributed /debated and digested the drafts/theories and possibilities. this may lead to the possibility of a canon or to canons .
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 2&gt; That ones predisposition to using the Myth'sTransformed [ hereafter MT in my posts -which gives me &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp and ide...] may be somewhat dependant on when one first encountered the Silm.
If you grew up in the 70's and the Silm was an amazing exstension of the ME universe and was seen as canonical for years until volume10 dispelled any feeling of stability and canonicity [although UT and HoME4/5 poked some serious holes] then MT is a radical reworking that endangers quite a bit of one's Middle-Earth world view.
------ for those whose Silmarillion exsposure was mixed in w/ HoMEat much the same time and who never went through a decade or more long acclamation to the 77' Silmarillion then Myth's transformed is I would guess much easier to countenance as it is simply the final [although a picture I saw in Artwork of JRRT which seemed very late [70 or 71?] showed the old sun travelling across the sky in a pre MT fashion] vision of the author and so simply the best candidate for a basis on which to build a canon .
which brings me to my final pondering , Our vision of a canon is going to be based for many of us on how JRRT's writingshave effected our souls, and this is more important I think than any detail or story or version being canonical or not or even debating a canon. If the process can help engender the same sense of wonder and the feeding of our souls and opening of our hearts that the stories do themselves then this is good and let us forge ahead . If instead of being a council of wise eldar and dunedain it becomes a finger of the claw of Mordor then we know we are on the wrong track, for one reason or another.

lindil


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[Mithadan]

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Re: Literary devices

Regretably, I don't quite understand. You are proposing that we take the UT version of Tuor and the BoLT version of the Fall of Gondolin and do....what? Write a new version? Isn't that exactly the &quot;fan fiction&quot; type of thing you said you wish to avoid?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Literary devices

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I would have left some of the folkier jests of Sam out [if I recall correctly JRRT did] but the splicing of the main tale w/ the details of rose staying up on her b'day [I think that was in a secondary draft] and seeing the letter was great.<hr></blockquote>
I will address this below if I may.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Epilouge is admittedly easier than Fall of Gondolin will be, and not just because of length , but because of stylistic discrepancies that exist even when factual oners do not.<hr></blockquote>
Even so; however Epilogue itself was a stylistic change since it is supposedly wriiten by Sam, not Frodo or Bilbo.
AS such; I elected to retain what you called 'folkier jests' as it reflected more accurately upon Sam's values of family and down to earth sense. Much more of it could have been retained from all the various drafts, but the underlying tone and progression of story was the important part. Not every detail needed the repetition, which is what the result would have been if it was simply an attempt to combine all available text.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I will try and discern the sources -but any commentary you provide would be welcome<hr></blockquote>
Doing so now. Really it was just an example of what you propose, but done with discretion, not just throwing in a text fragment simply because it had once been written. It was an attempt to show the main thrust of the idea and tone without adding new text [read as: fan-fiction].
And again the question comes back to; since it is such a compilation, was it (or would it) be forced or contrived?
This applies to other intended texts also.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Write a new version? Isn't that exactly the &quot;fan fiction&quot; type of thing you said you wish to avoid?<hr></blockquote>
AFAIK; the indication here is to combine the texts in an intelligent manner without 'writing' connecting text or other forms of bridging the versions. That is undoubtedly 'fan-fiction'. I think the proposal is for a re-editing, not re-writing, if I understand everyting about the project direction correctly.
In some respects and cases; it would simply amount to re-inserting text that Christopher deleted (on his own initiative!) to accomplish the same sense of direction and resolution this seems to be taking. However again; is it to be a compilation of every written sentence or a compilation done with judicious care?






</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 451</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Literary devices

But some matters will need &quot;correction&quot; such as hordes of Balrogs being present and metal dragons etc. Style will also need modification. BoLT was written very differently from UT.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 452</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Literary devices

Saul, I liked the Epilogue very much. I've never read the History of the War of the Ring, so I can't compare it to the original.

Same for Maeglin. Nice job of combining and editing texts. Don't doubt that some might dispute &quot;canonicity&quot; of some minor details (I really don't), but that would only get worse if a more difficult subject is tackled.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 167</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Literary devices and plans to start

Mithadan said: &quot;But some matters will need &quot;correction&quot; such as hordes of Balrogs being
present and metal dragons etc. Style will also need modification. BoLT
was written very differently from UT.&quot;
All true. Much of II will not be able to survive , but alot will, I hope . Enough to give a real flavor of the splendour of Gondolin and somedetails and much of intensity of the Battle. As the blind man said ... We shall see!
1
I think if we do not use judicious care there is no point , as to what is judicious, that is where we will do better [and slower] as a group than individuals, as long as we can get general agreement on principles [which it seems we either have or are close to] and a coordinated way of working.I hope I am right in reading intoour public and private discussions that we are in agreement enough to give this a whirl and sort out our remaining differences in the course of working, if not say so, and i will happily back up a step or 2 [or 10 <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ].

2
so w/out further verbiage , I [and am suggesting we ,though if either of you have another pilot text you prefer say it now <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> !] will reread the UT Of Tour and his coming [ I am assumng we want to use that more or less in it's entirety] and go through to the point whre one must return to the 77 and II,IV and V [I didn't see anything inXI at all , although I only looked into what i thought were obvious places] .
3
After reading over the multiple versions say from the end of the UT Tuor to the capture of Maeglin , I propose we pick a text to use as our &quot;base text &quot; [the criteria being whic text has the most of what we think we will keep] and # the chapters sequentially for easy reference .
4
I don't yet have a guess as to wether we want 77,IV or V or II. we will prob. be forced to use II as the base text for the battle and flight and make our deletions and editorial changes from that.
I am also anticipating that we will run into CRRT's editorializing quite quickly and this I hope will provide us w/ a model of how to adapt the style of older texts,esp. IV and V to the tone of JRRT's later X and XI style which seems to be the basis of whatended up in 77 .
5
we will also hit the question , I am guessing of wether or not to keep and use links or more than cosmetic changes that CRRT made . I will tentatively put forth [I expect to hear some feedback on this! <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ] the idea that we seriously consider using any links he gives us that do not create new story, but are stylistic. What do you think on that? Wether or not to use CRRT's bigger changes deserves a thread of it's own and happily I don't think we need to cross that bridge yet ,but we will see what the tale will bring!
6
I am hoping I myself can cover a paragraph more or less every day [or three !] and I woud imagine since I don't have chat capabilities and Saulotus has said he won't be using that mode that it will be most convienent fpr whoever wants to take a hand at this to pick alternating paragraphs [for example: saulotus 45, 48 and 51;Mithadan 46 ,49 and52 and; lindil 47,50, and53 - submitting each paragraph to the rest w/ a detailed list of what our emendations were and where they came from. We could even use a system of bracketing that would tell us which phrase or sentence or word came from what source , e.g. &lt;Tuor said no&gt; would indicate II
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp { Tuor said no} would indicate 77
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp [ tuor said no] would indicate IV etc.
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Tuor said no would indicate base text-V
7
we could put the corresponding paragraph #'s in the margin this way we would be spared choopping the text up w/ clumsy words and abbrev. or detailed notes at the end and instead we can have clumsy brackets throughout the text. I am open to other suggestions here, this just popped into my head and seemed simple and convienent [compared to the alternatives I could imagine that is].
8
As to debating changes and having a system whereby we hash out our disaggrements in a manner worthy of the Vanyar [let's say since they seemed to be peace-loving lovers of prose and poesy] here are a few ideas please feel free to come up w/ alternate idea's . I suggest that we submit our drafts to the group , automatically soliciting feedback which we then [ if there is any] hope is unanimously agreed on , if not we vote, majority rules -if we have a deadlock due to having an even # of editors we can either give 2 votes to the editor of the particular paragraph [or any size section] or choose an 'independent' arbitrator, say Ron, if he is willing.
9
I am going to go back and # the above paragraphs so they can be commented on more easily as there is a pretty large # of suggestions being made.Then I am off to Gondolin via Hithlum and Nevrast- I imagine it will be a couple days before days before I am finished reading and getting an idea on a base tex t and ready to attempt my first paragraph of the section prior to Maeglin's capture. All are of course free to preempt me w/ suggestions of all kinds [ choice of books , base texts , manner of reolving editorial disputes, etc.].


I will reiterate to hopefully avoid any ill-will or confusion , these are suggestions, open to debate - i hope they are only seen as one members attempt to offer what he can and to make use of the small head of steam we have.

lindil




.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 454</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Literary devices and plans to start

Reply to your numbered paragraphs, where applicable:

1. Cumbersome procedure? Might it not be better to have different people work on different texts, periodically exchanging what's done to date? I did not realize we had settled on a text format though I have no real objection.

2. Try something shorter (?), though perhaps Tuor and Gondolin will require less editing. Otherwise, I assume you mean we should all hit the books.

3. Base text for Tuor is problematic. We go from very detailed narrative (UT) to Historical overview (77). Reconciling them will be very tough without choosing one style over another and either expanding (read: adding to) or contracting texts. Again, maybe its better to start with something shorter.

4, 5. No comments. What do you mean by &quot;links&quot;? Not trying to be argumentative, but you want feedback.

6-8. See responses to No. 1.

I love Tuor/Gondolin as a story, selecting it might allow us to get a flavor for how well received a canon effort will be. But having different people working on different paragraphs using different writing/editing practices promises to be a nightmare. I also worry about starting with such a primary tale. Saul's Maeglin worked out well because it was short. We could each select a relatively short portion, edit and exchange for comments to see how it goes, rather than jumping into a primary story.

Otherwise, lets get through this rehashing of procedures quickly and take a run at it!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 349</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Literary devices and plans to start

There's quite a bit here; so I'll refrain from a complete commentary.

It seems I wasn't quite on the same page afterall.
After seeing suggestions for adding material from text X to Text B (of which they are unrelated), then I would have to express concern.

i.e. Shibboleth should stand alone, not be an incorporated featurette, Quendi And Eldar is SUPPOSED to be an Appendixed item, as is Athrabeth not a source of text for another text.

I think that clarification on my part should express my concern considering editorial and creative expression.

As a possible solution to appease; Silmarillion is a conglomeration of stories from different sources. Christopher made a &gt;creative choice&lt; to develop a sense of narrative flow, which was not truly intended or acheived in many places, not an editorial choice.

In this way, Tuor can abide alongside Fall of Gondolin without significant alteration as example.

FYI: in my personal copies, I make extensive use of the Lays prsented as historical flavor, and to accentuate different styles or details otherwise unknown (Boldog for example).

If I am still on the wrong page, please let me know.
I can go with the current idea, but it seems a bit excesssive.

I used Maeglin as an example as it is done using only text taken from Maeglin and it's variants, while keeping in mind the conceptual whole picture.

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 175</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Literary devices and plans to start

There's quite a bit here; so I'll refrain from a complete commentary.

Mithadan , I am working on a complete reply to your last post on this thread - Hopefully by thursday pm it will be done. Thanks for such a serious look at the proposals

It seems I wasn't quite on the same page afterall.
After seeing suggestions for adding material from text X to Text B (of
which they are unrelated), then I would have to express concern.

i.e. Shibboleth should stand alone, not be an incorporated featurette,
Quendi And Eldar is SUPPOSED to be an Appendixed item, as is
Athrabeth not a source of text for another text.

I think that clarification on my part should express my concern
considering editorial and creative expression.
These have been my suggestions all along and that is all they are . I have my own philosophy as to why I would
add items which JRRT saw as belonging more to an appendix- briefly it is that JRRT may have incorporated some himself , and that the detail he was hoping for in the Silm , will never be reached by his remaing texts , adding peices [not whole parts] of Q &amp; E, but, say the sections that seriously illuminate the awakening of the elves for instance.
As a possible solution to appease; Silmarillion is a conglomeration of
stories from different sources. Christopher made a &gt;creative choice&lt; to
develop a sense of narrative flow, which was not truly intended or
acheived in many places, not an editorial choice.

In this way, Tuor can abide alongside Fall of Gondolin without significant
alteration as example.

FYI: in my personal copies, I make extensive use of the Lays prsented
as historical flavor, and to accentuate different styles or details otherwise
unknown (Boldog for example).
I will have to look into III more , I have never been as keen an appreciator of poetry as i would like so I have neglected III .

If I am still on the wrong page, please let me know.
I can go with the current idea, but it seems a bit excesssive.
let's take up each story and bit s to be inserted or not as it comes up.

I used Maeglin as an example as it is done using only text taken from
Maeglin and it's variants, while keeping in mind the conceptual whole
picture.
Maeglin seemed a [wise] and rather straight forward peice to work on.

As a wrap up; my suggestions in the propsed outline thread are my musings that have not yet gone through the fire of collective criticism , that is why I through them up. I do favor the idea of the Silm being as full as the available materials allow and if something can be used to flesh out a story i would in general rather see it there than in an appendix, but this is my pet theory if you will and I don't expect that after hearing everyone idea's , that I shall still feel the same way as I do now. [at least I hope not!] I most def. am not asking for an up or down vote on the whole package and clearly I shall have to flesh a few out to make my case a little stronger, but I will def. postpone that till after the group has [God willing] finished a few chapters.

Saulotus , I still havn't given Maeglin the critical eye it deserves I will try and hit it tonight, thanks for sharing <img src=smile.gif ALT="">


Lindil

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 464</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Literary devices and plans to start

HoME 3, Lays, provides a tremendous amount of info on the tale of Beren and Luthien which was later left out due to compression. It can be a slow read but take a good look at it. In addition to the Baldog example, there is the entire subtheme of Morgoth's desire to kidnap Luthien and the raid upon Doriath. The detailed dialogue between Sauron and the disguised Finrod is a true gem at many levels, as is the discussion of the heroes descent into Angband.

In some ways Beren and Luthien presents fewer problems than combining Tuor from UT and Gondolin from BoLT/HoME/Sil. 77. This should be considered in choosing texts for editing.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 176</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Literary devices and plans to start

I defer. sounds good.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 468</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Literary devices and plans to start

Do we have agreement here?!!!??? (Mithadan sits in shock staring blankly at the screen)

Saulotus, Durelen, anyone else object? Beren and Luthien instead of the Fall of Gondolin?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 357</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Literary devices and plans to start

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Beren and Luthien instead of the Fall of Gondolin?<hr></blockquote>
Whichever. Since they are test runs for examination on if the process will even work...

I still prefer to retain the different tale aspect approach. Lay of Leithian stands fine by itself. Prose form has it's own set of values on taking 'artistic liscense' so not every word need truly apply or even be accurate, unless one should like to examine tales of Paul Bunyon or other such Tall Tales put into prose form for accuracy.

The fact that the tale Aragorn tells to the Hobbits differs significantly from the Lay form from which it is supposedly taken proves this point somewhat.

On an additional note: I am sending Andreth to you both which implements more of the MT concepts.

Comment as you like, unfortunately it cannot be printed here for others to do likewise, which is a detriment.

I can easily follow up with 'Of Naming, Shibboleth, Of the Ents and Eagles, The Converse of Manwe and Illuvatar, Quendi And Eldar, Danbeth Pengolodh', and more... just to name a few.

Although I truly think that the inclusion of 'Herendil' up until the point it was abandoned is possible as it no-where directly contradicts anything stated. This would of course make Herendil a third son of Elendil, and the youngest. What his eventual fate was is left to the mists of time I deem... just another unfinished tale, but one that provides a wealth of information.



</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 177</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Literary devices and plans to start

I must say that I while I am willing to do B &amp; L in the 3 rd slot . I am not convinced that it will be any easier than FoG.
Especially if we try and integrate the many details out of the lay .I definitely feel starting is more important than what [esp w/ a good solid work like DoV].

coming to mind is Aragorn's statement that &quot;at Rivendell you may hear it told aright&quot; , possibly meaning that there were other ways [i.e. versions] of telling it that were suspect in the mind of the distant descendant of Beren and Luthien.

If we get through a couple other tales we should , I hope have the energy and skill to wrestle w/ a 'big tale' such as B &amp; L.

So yes, amazingly enough, it seems all four of us are on board w/ DoV.

I started reading the version from I and have #'d the paragraphs in 77, as a base ,
shall we proceed w/ paragraphs divided as per my previous post ?
I know this was not resolved,
But I feel there are strong benefits to a group approach , as long as it isn't too chaotic.

I have some thing of a knack [ or at least obsession] for procedural organizing so I am happy to apply it to the inevitable problems as they arise, and submit suggestions to vote [ or consensus] , if noone else wants to tackle such mundanicities .

Onward and upward to valinor?

lindil


</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 223</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
CRRT quota tion on editing

this is the same material from the outline/proposal thread but I thought a copy should live here for future discussions sake.


===========
I just foung an interesting quote of CRRT which belongs in lit. devices , but as I am here now ...

It is CRRT speaking frankly of his editorial [and a bit more] handling p. 8 UT :
' ...and in the earlier part of the story [Aldarion and Erendis] I have rewritten much of the material in the attempt to give some degree of stylistic homogeneity. throughout it's course. this rewriting is entirely a matter of of wording , and never alters meaning or introduces inauthentic elements .'
============
This is something to debate on another thread maybe, as the lines between JRRT/Fanfiction have blurred here. I myself have never had a problem w/CRRT's doing what needed to be done to get 77 and UT to us,
it is only now w/ HoME that he honestly tells us he backed away from the big job his father was aiming for [both MT and Old style versions] this is where my dissatisfaction comes in. not by any means do I think I could have done better w/ a chaotic mass of fading manuscripts that he had. I would have given up in despair, or [at the very best -which is unlikely] as he did publish the relatively finished and straightforward stuff quickly [UT] and make a Silm that was more or less streamlined and avoided many of the really thorny issues [except the death of thingol] which was unavoidable, which he did [77]. And then if I couldn't rest; turn to making a compilation of the whole mess. [HoME].

thus we have published for us, as neatly as can be all [or 95% +] of the material needed to do what CRRT could have done ,had he pondered longer , done alot of difficult homework on the HoME stuff first, before publishing 77, and applying the above principles of supplementational writing he mentions and used in UT.

thoughts?
i.e. is it still Tolkien if CRRT uses the liberal methods of editing and fanfiction if we do it?



'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 380</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: CRRT quota tion on editing

Thank you.

This has been my point with statements made in various threads.

IMO; keeping to the text as written, and avoiding material from 77 and otherplaces as much as possible is the best course.

I try to remind those who read the threads that not all of the material was present for his inspection, and that he did the best job he could (with what he had).

In this regard, 77 is no more canonical than the result this project would create, and in fact, this project may in the end have a more sound basis for a 'canon' standing than 77 does, if it is done properly.

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">linidl
Posts: 335</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
CRRT -the first FF

I think that CRRT's work is so woven into UT that it will not be possible to use those excellent texts w/out inc. some of his work . So my vote [before the issue has come up<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ] is to let his editorial work in UT be. And use 77 ,only when absolutely nothing else makes sense.

lindil


Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 549</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
a refreshing of the thread

There are a # of interesting points brought up in the thread and I think now might be a good time to revisit some of them.

Keep in mind that the 'group' which we see formed herein later moved there discussion to another thread containing detailed working procedures [&quot;regrouping the rules/rev. silm...&quot;] and is now composed of a slightly modified set of members.

I have changed my mind on the #2 idea and it was a 'strict' reediting that was decided upon by the group.

I have come to think the Ruin of Doriath in the 77 is the only feasible way to go short of really rewriting the section. It is sadly compressed after Turin and Hurin but w/ in the realm of Canon I can see no cure for that and am not sure that a more condensed Turin [77] /Hurin makes the 'RoD' any better. Although it does create a slightly smoother transition.






Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Aiwendil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 9</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: a refreshing of the thread

Regarding the Ruin of Doriath: One problem for a canon version is that the Wanderings of Hurin does not agree in certain points with either the QS or the 77. This is not merely a matter of exclusion; CRT actually changed the story at certain points from what JRRT intended - e.g., Hurin's band disappeared. He apparently did this because of &quot;intractable problems&quot; and contradictions between Wanderings and earlier material.

Clearly, it would be advisable to retain JRRT's later conceptions - the story of Hurin in Brethil, etc. However, the only way I can see to do this is to engage in &quot;creative writing&quot; at points.

I think in this case, this is justified. Using the 77 would be no more valid, as this is also &quot;creative writing.&quot; Does anyone have any idea of how to handle the chapter without resorting to this?

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 553</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: a refreshing of the thread

I just read HoMEIV 'the Quenta ' section 14.
It is altogether inferior to CRT's 'Ruin of Doriath' but could by and large be used.
My memory of II is that it's version of RoD [the Naul=glamir] is so severely different that only a few bits here and there might be usable.

I understand reluctance to use CRT's 77, for it is clearly creative writing. But there are 2 major differences.
1]If I am not mistaken CRT was given permission by his father to do what was needed to publish the Silm.
2] for nearly a quarter of a century CRT's 'RoD' has stood as 'the version' to all but the most fanatical of us. It was unquestioned canon to many of us till war of the Jewels finally came out and we really see that the ending chapters are a mess when not entirely absent and we haveto go back to IV to see the last writings of JRRT on the end of the first age [ w/ the sole exception of Lost Roads war f wrath section.
Despite his misgivings CRT's RoD is far better than any thing we can hope to cobble together w/ out creative writing [and better than I anything I could w/ it<img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ]
His manner of handling Thingol's death makes far more sense [in regards to the girdle of Melian] and is simply a more mature harmonious conception [imo] than having him killed in the woods.

as to what to do w/ the end notes to Wandering of Hurin, I have not given it thought.
the text available that mentions the outlaws slowly dying off on the road back is very thin and wil not mesh w/ Wanderings . I suggest w/ out a close look at this specifically to eliminate WoH as far back as needed to avoid a band forming after Brethil , keep the 77 version of Hurin in Nargothrond and Doriath. Thingol and Melian still convey a sense of immediacy after the details we get in the Narn [during Turin's fostering].

So while 77 is a strange choice in terms of purity, the other alternatives are seriously worse.
Andfrankly I think the editorializing here and there in the Sil is so pervasive that that it can not be entirely rooted out completely anyway and will have to relied on at least a bit to make [almost ] any Silm work

Other thoughts ?




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Aiwendil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 10</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: a refreshing of the thread

I agree that the 77 is usable here, but I'd rather redefine the canon at certain points than accept CRT's version. As for the death of Thingol, I think the 77 version could be kept - it makes a lot of sense, and indeed looks like the only way to resolve the problem. Tolkien's thoughts on this were by no means clear, anyway.

However, I think it would still be better to keep the Wanderings of Hurin in full (in terms of plot, not necessarily keeping the whole narrative in the Quenta Silmarillion). Having a band with Hurin through the rest of his travels would require some slight rewrites, but I think these would be worth it to preserve what Tolkien undoubtedly wanted. Also, I don't think it was ever his intention to have the Nauglamir be the only item brought to Doriath. The only two versions we have to go on are:

Quenta Noldorinwa: Hurin and outlaws bring treasure to Doriath, dying inexplicably on the way; Hurin must have Thingol send people to carry the treasure (which obviously ruins the gesture),

and Wanderings of Hurin: Hurin still has a band of outlaws with him as he sets off toward Nargothrond.

There's no indication of CRT's solution, that Hurin goes alone with only the Nauglamir, at all. My suggestion is to follow the 77, but alter the prose so that Hurin retains his outlaws, who accompany him to Doriath with the treasure (not dying) and deliver it to Thingol. They would, I suppose, wander off after Hurin leaves Doriath. What do you think?

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[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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Re: a refreshing of the thread

A;&quot;I agree that the 77 is usable here, but I'd rather redefine the canon
at certain points than accept CRT's version. &quot;
L:I would rather do that also, wherever possible, but in some of the later history 77 is now the sole source for texts of any workability in some instances [Turin,Doriath,Gondolin], meaning sections of shapters not exclusivy.

A;&quot;As for the death of
Thingol, I think the 77 version could be kept - it makes a lot of sense,
and indeed looks like the only way to resolve the problem. Tolkien's
thoughts on this were by no means clear, anyway.&quot;
L:Agreed

A;&quot; However, I think it would still be better to keep the Wanderings of Hurin in full (in terms of plot, not necessarily keeping the whole
narrative in the &quot;Quenta Silmarillion&quot. Having a band with Hurin
through the rest of his travels would require some slight rewrites, but
I think these would be worth it to preserve what Tolkien undoubtedly
wanted. Also, I don't think it was ever his intention to have the
Nauglamir be the only item brought to Doriath. The only two versions
we have to go on are:

Quenta Noldorinwa: Hurin and outlaws bring treasure to Doriath,
dying inexplicably on the way; Hurin must have Thingol send people
to carry the treasure (which obviously ruins the gesture),

and Wanderings of Hurin: Hurin still has a band of outlaws with him as
he sets off toward Nargothrond.

L: While the stated principle has been to rely solely on published texts. The stated scope of the current project is Darkening of Valinor a revision of the Silm chapter not the entirety of th X and it's subchapters], Of the Sun and Moon,Beren and Luthien.
This was designed as a pilot project to thensend about and seek a wider degree of paricipation.

Assuming this [or somethong similar] takes place and we can gather a sufficiently large group of people together to justify it's being a 'commitee on to decide the question of SilmarillionCanon'
or some such. I would be more than willing to alter the current working principles and use a modicum of creative writing [or as Michael so excellently put it- 'Inspired Forgery'] if that was seen as the solution which would be most true to the Legendarium. It obviously has a good case and is essentially a matter of Substituting some of CRT's for our own.

A;&quot;There's no indication of CRT's solution, that Hurin goes alone with
only the Nauglamir, at all.&quot;
L: Agreed but with the way he had w/ people [due to the curse] it is hard to imagine him keeping companions very long.
A:&quot; My suggestion is to follow the 77, but alter
the prose so that Hurin retains his outlaws, who accompany him to
Doriath with the treasure (not dying) and deliver it to Thingol. They
would, I suppose, wander off after Hurin leaves Doriath. What do you
think? &quot;
As asbove, it makes since. Personally I find Hurin taking the Nauglamir alone, w/out companions more plausible and I can easily see why CRT hit upon it.
But as ou point out there is no textual basis for it. It is just the simplest wat o wrap up th ethreads w/out getting involved in large amounts of Gold being transported through enemy territory , w/ all the strangeness of Thingol's folk helping and then being rebuked.
So I am happy w/ the 77 but it is hard to defend.

If you are interested in joining our pilot project we are always taking applications.
<img src=smile.gif ALT="">
There is currently Gwaihir and myself, along w/ a section of DoV from Durelen [in the next week or so ?] Mithadan a key formulator of the project in it's embryonic phase has been on a hiatus of sorts as he works on the Tales of Tol Eressea [well worth checking out if you have not done so].We of course hope to see him back w/ us at any time.

But currently we are a 3 person team in the midst of DoV, if Mithadan does rejoin by the starting of the next text I will propose we regroup and reprioritze the text selection, as Sun and Moon was to facilitate a Myth's Transformed alternate text which i do not think has much support among us at the moment.






Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>