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#1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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With this chapter we begin discussing the final book, The Return of the King. Before starting it, I read the synopsis at the beginning of the book - certainly not because I need to be reminded of what happened, but I was curious to see what would be mentioned - or not. I found it interesting to note that Lórien was mentioned only in passing and Galadriel not at all. That makes me wonder who wrote the synopsis - I can't imagine that Tolkien himself would have left her out of any summary of the plot. Has the authorship of the synopsis been mentioned anywhere in HoME? If you've reread the synopsis, what did you notice?
The first chapter begins with the words "Pippin looked..." - a very programmatic start, since it shows us the events through his eyes. The story remains hobbitcentric. It is a long chapter and chockfull of so many things that I find it difficult to choose or condense them into a few paragraphs. Through Pippin's eyes, we get a deeper look at Gandalf, as well as by the reaction of the Gondorians to his coming. For the first time, he wonders about his true nature and age. What information do we find about the wizard? We are introduced to Denethor - what impresses you about him? The description of his ability to see events and read minds sounds like Osanwë - does he have innate abilities there, or do you think it's all the palantír? The city of Minas Tirith is described quite clearly, though I must admit that I didn't take in those details when first reading the book, since I hurried to find out what happened next. We are also introduced to Beregond and his son Bergil - a nice touch, to get to know some of the "normal" people of the city, not just nobility. These are among the very popular "minor" characters - what do you like about them? Additional names are mentioned as the leaders and their troops come to Minas Tirith. Most of all, this chapter shows Pippin's growth and development - a coming of age tale, though he still has four years to go by Hobbit standards. The chapter ends with darkness - the Darkness that begins, forebodingly announced by Gandalf. (Take your time in reading this long chapter if you wish - we have at least two weeks to discuss it... )
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#2 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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I'm just going to pick out a few observations that I noticed when reading the chapter. It's mainly going to deal with Gandalf and Denethor.
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Denethor's view is he is the absolute ruler of Gondor, he is subordinate to no man, no matter how "worthy" they are. What he says goes, whether Gandalf is a "steward," or no matter how wise/worthy of a man you are, Gondor's rule is "MINE!" Then the sort of throw away comment at the end to try to make up for his "It's mine!...oh...of course unless the King return." Denethor seems much more like the Frankish stewards who had almost the same power as their kings. Gandalf's view of "steward" is much more different. More of a guardian role. He watches over, and cares for all worthy things. This could explain better why Radagast did not succeed in his "task." The Istari were sent to middle-earth to care for all the people's, all it's things, they were the "stewards" for Eru, and the Valar. Gandalf is the one who does care for all things that are good, and worthy, while Radagast seems to only fall under the care of nature, and birds. Quote:
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#3 | ||||
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
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Just a few thoughts while I skim the chapter...
I love how humble Pippin is here; and we even get to see a bit of "hobbit pride": Quote:
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The contrast between the citadel of Minas Tirith and the Great Hall at Meduseld is very markedly given. Pippin notes how there are "no hangings nor storied webs, nor any things of woven stuff or of wood" like there are in Meduseld. Everything here in Minas Tirith is completely carven in stone -- and this seems to be Denethor's mindset, too. He'll maintain the status quo because the course in which the world seems to be going is, to him, inevitable. Quote:
It's been mentioned in many discussions before, but I just have to say that I adore the line: "For I also am a steward. Did you not know?" This is one of those scenes that I can see perfectly clearly in my mind, and it's a very clever line. It's not quite defiant, but there's a hint of a warning in it, as if Gandalf wants to say that he's going to be working to save Gondor whether Denethor likes it or not. Pippin's description of Aragorn as "a man who went about with us" strikes me as oddly funny. Obviously he doesn't want to give away any information about Aragorn, but the way he describes him makes the man sound like he just traipses about after the Fellowship, and everyone just humors him even though he's not supposed to be there -- a Fellowship groupie, perhaps. ![]() The closing of the chapter is very grim: "The Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn." Light seems to be one of the simplest human desires; all Sam wants in Mordor is light and water. Now even the hope brought by the sunshine is being taken away -- talk about psychological warfare! I like seeing things through Pippin's eyes here; it's a sort of Everyman approach that we wouldn't get through, say, Gandalf's eyes, or even from a neutral-voiced narrator. Pippin's reactions seem to be close to how our own (meaning the average person's) would be. That's all for now... I'm glad to be on RotK now. It's my favorite of the trilogy. |
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#4 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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I am going to reread this chapter before I comment deeply, but I would say that it is one of my favourites partly becasue of the information it provides - like the Counciul of Elrond it is a mine of information for those of us whose interest in Middle Earth go beyond what is strictly necessary for the development of the plot. And a consequence Minas Tirith is somewhere with a great deal of substance in my imagination. Strangely, I must admit it was the place I gave up when I first read the book. I had found book 4 alternately to dull or too scary and now not only was the quest seemingly doomed ( how thick was I not to realise the significance of the title of volume 3?!!?), but I was stuck with the members of the fellowship I liked least. I wanted more of Aragorn and Legolas (or failing that Merry) and I was stuck with grumpy Gandalf and Pippin). Faced with many, many more pages without sight of an elf, and lots of horrors, I stopped - but I was very young (10 I think..) so maybe my lack of perseverance can be forgiven.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#5 | |
Dead Serious
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I don't mean here, in our primary world, where Merlin and Gandalf himself have played major roles in developing our mental images of a typical wizard, but in middle-earth. In other words, what is Pippin's default image of wizard? Denethor, as far as we know, does not have exceptionally long hair. If he has a beard at all, it is not of great length. He has no pointed hat. He wears the fine garments of a Steward- including chainmail. Now I realise that it was the force of Denethor's powerful personality shining through that must have been the major influence on Pippin's reaction, but I still wonder: before the quest, how did Pippin mentally imagine a "great wizard". And one must remember that Gandalf was really only known for his fireworks, etc, in the Shire, and not for being a great wizard.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#6 |
Pilgrim Soul
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I think it would be the aura of authority. The istari came in the bodily clothing of old men, and while Pippin had, on his travels, been in the presence of elf lords and young men of high rank, the older men (or seeming men) he had encountered were Gandalf, Theoden (revived), Saruman and Denethor. Now superficially Gandalf might have appeared the least imposing of them all. Denethor in his imposing surroundings and with the the ancient authority of his office would have been very imposing, and Denethor is very learned - it just occurs to me - and of course at this stage Pippin is unaware of Denethor's palantir which is an obvious parralel - that Pippin may be reminded of Saruman in his first impressions of Denethor. If I remember rightly the Steward has a rod as a sign of his office which would be a surrogate staff? I will have a closer look at that possibility when I reread...
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#7 | |||
A Mere Boggart
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The whole chapter is seen through Pippin's eyes, and it is written very much as though we only see what Pippin sees; like him we are filled with wonder at this new place so his viewpoint is a perfect one to take, as we too are viewing it afresh. His age is an important factor here. Pippin is still not 'come of age' and is young, and his behaviour throughout the books demonstrates his youth. In this chapter we see Minas Tirith as viewed by a young person who is still learning about the world.
He has a lot of youthful pride: Quote:
Pippin is still impulsive, as shown in his eagerness to speak to Denethor, despite Gandalf warning him what he ought not to say; he does not seem to believe in waiting to be spoken to. Likewise, when he is assigned to Beregond for the morning, his first question is to ask where he might get some food. Beregond himself informs Pippin of his status in the hierarchy of Minas Tirith, and he is well respected, but Pippin does not restrict his manner of speech. He wants to know as much as possible, and through his eager talk we too get to know all about the city. His youth is underlined when he meets Bergil, who he befriends and seems to treat as a younger brother. With his new friend, Pippin the newcomer to the city is even able to show off a little: Quote:
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From this I get a couple of things. Firstly, the men of Minas Tirith may well be trained soldiers, but they do not have a great awareness of the world they live in; their lives are insular, dedicated to the service of the great city, yet they hold the fate of this world in their hands. The passage also shows just how far Pippin has come from his innocence in The Shire; he is indeed growing up throughout his journey. It also serves to remind us that although the Ring may be in the hands of a Hobbit, these Hobbits, when viewed alongside Men, are just as strong and brave. I'm sure if Gandalf had not taken Pippin with him then we would have had a very different view of Minas Tirith. Gandalf does not go about with the ordinary Men, he instead rushes off to a meeting, and the city is familiar to him. Through his eyes we would not have seen the place with as much of a sense of wonder, and we would not have met Beregond and Bergil and shared their feelings on the eve of battle.
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#8 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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This is a long chapter & will probably take some unravelling. I have to say that, as I usually do, I read through the relevant section of HoMe first, & was struck by a few things, some of which seem relevant to our understanding of this chapter.
Now, before anyone accuses me of contradicting other statements I’ve made recently, about simply reading the story & entering into it without analysing it, pulling it apart, or seeking external explanations, I’ll say I’m only using these quotes because they seem to me to shed light on the story itself. First of all, a note by Tolkien regarding Denethor’s attitude to Gondor, which seems to back up Boromir’s post: Quote:
This also plays a part, I suspect, in his attitude to Aragorn, & the possibility if his claiming the Kingship. Denethor can only see this possibility as his own defeat & overthrow, & therefore as the defeat & overthrow of Gondor itself. It seems to me that Denethor’s sitting in the throneroom, armed & armoured, but refusing to go out, is not merely his attempt at self preservation; its as if he feels that while he himself is safe & secure then Gondor, by extension, will be safe & secure as well. He can even ‘spend his sons’ because, while he loves them, they are not Gondor. Another thing I picked up from HoMe, which may or may not be applicable, was a statement from the ‘proto-Beregond’: Quote:
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#9 | |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
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A few quick thoughts before I read a bit more closely...
I'm struck by the use of contrasts in this chapter: the high white peaks of Minas Tirith against the shadowed walls of Mordor, Gandalf versus Denethor in the passages discussed above, Borormir versus Faramir from Beregond's words, and even Pippin versus Denethor. Both Pippin and Denethor show pride in this chapter, but while Denethor's pride leads to selfishness as he claims the rule of Gondor, Pippin is lead to give service. Maybe this is an insight into hobbit resistance to evil, since a feeling that leads to negative behavior in Denethor leads to something positive from Pippin. There might be a hint of Osanwë suggested here. While there is clearly foreshadowing of the palantír's existence in Minas Tirith when Pippin thinks Denethor looked at him while speaking about the Stones, the interaction between Gandalf and Denethor brings Osanwë to mind: Quote:
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Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I also agree very much with Enca's and Boromir's points on the stewardship line. It's one of my favorites. Quote:
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#11 |
Hauntress of the Havens
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That, Firefoot, and the fact that Denethor and Gandalf have always disagreed on a great many things. It's as if in exchange for the information Gandalf would have given, Denethor knows for sure that he would be used by Gandalf to fulfill his own goals. We have already seen that Gandalf and Denethor "love" Gondor in different ways, therefore they have different ways of protecting it. Denethor would rather spend an hour questioning Pippin who knows less, knowing that he can do nothing about what he says, instead of asking Gandalf for news and having to risk giving him authority to act upon them indirectly.
EDIT: Oh, and it would be easier for Denethor to read Pippin's mind, so he would get more than what Pippin actually says. |
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#12 | ||
Riveting Ribbiter
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. |
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#13 | |
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Indeed. Don't forget Pippin's:
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Taking the events of the chapter in order, I think this was the first thing that stood out:
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It has already been pointed out that Gandalf ‘condems’ Denethor’s questioning of Pippin rather than he himself, Quote:
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Finally, for now, we have Pippin’s oath. As has been pointed out, all four Hobbits swear an oath of service - Sam to Frodo, Frodo to the Council, Merry to Theoden & Pippin, here, to Denethor. They all commit themselves to the service of an individual, apart from Frodo, who swears service to a ‘mission’, if I can put it that way. Their oaths bind them, but only Frodo is broken by the oath he swears. |
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#15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Note about the opening. It starts right from where the third book left off. With this I think Tolkien wanted to make it clear that LOTR is indeed one book and not three like some people think it is.
Merry and Pippin were minor characters in the other books but in this one they are drawn into the foreground. Of course in this chapter it is Pippin. I really like that because before the reader wasn't given much of a chance to learn much. When first reading LOTR I really got to like Pippin in this chapter. I already liked him before but in this chapter I liked seeing how he matured. When he first came to power Denethor might have accepted the fact that as a steward he wouldn't be the main power in Minas Tirith all his life. But as he got older and no heir appeared he might have begun to think of himself as the "King". Than when he began to look in the Palantir I think Sauron took advantage of this thought or belief and used it to bring Denethor under his spell. Eventually I am sure that Sauron also used Boromir's death to break Denethor. Overall it is a nasty business. When I read the description of Gondor I immediatly got the impression that the city was in its decline and that all its inhabitants know it too. Faramir mentioned it in Ithilien as well and part of his hope was to see the city restored to its former glory. This state of decay makes the need for victory even more urgent. Or at least that was the feeling I got (which made me read faster ![]() The fact that Mordor's shadow is growing rapidly is noticed by everybody's behaviour. It can be noticed by how suspicious the guards at the gate are towards Pippin. Also through this whole chapter there is an stifling atmosphere created by the way things are described and how people act. This chapter saddens me too because it is obvious that Gondor was glorious, and that the decay is now spreading quickly. Actually Moria gives me this same feeling as well. The sadness due to the loss of something great.
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#16 | ||||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Pippin is stirred to speak by his pride, which is not misplaced if we remember what he has been through; he is indignant at the suggestion he is not as brave as any Man. The encounter with the Palantir has not entirely humbled him or he would not act and speak in this way. This is a good thing or Pippin would not have had the sense of pride to be hurt, the memory of having been in great peril, that would eventually prompt him into swearing his oath. Seeing the broken horn seems to stir some great emotion within him and even though he may have had the idea of service, of paying something back for Boromir's death in mind, it takes the catalyst of seeing the broken horn to prompt his oath. I think his growing maturity is more of a process, brought on not just by the Palantir, but by learning just what it means to take an oath and enter into service. Maybe impulsive is too strong a term, certainly seen in the light of Gollum's impulsiveness in the previous book, but Pippin is certainly not cool and calculated. He is emotionally moved by the sight of Boromir's broken horn in the hands of Denethor, moved by the sight of a father in grief, and coupled with the sense that his own bravery is being questioned, he is prompted to speak and act. In this chapter I think we see that Pippin is very much the young man, in that he wishes to appear capable and brave, but he also wears his feelings on his sleeve and has a great intelligence. Probably more than being impulsive, I think he is simply a little unpredictable, as Gandalf finds out to his pleasant surprise. Quote:
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Even the ringing of the hourly bell echoes maritime tradition and the uniforms of the guards include sea bird emblems. Is this tradition intentional, to remind them of their past? We even get a hint here of the shape of Numenorean ships; they are not swan-prowed like Elven ships, but are of the shape we are more used to.
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#17 | ||
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
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#18 | ||
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. |
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#19 | |
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Part of his 'impulsivity' I think can be blamed on his inexperience. He did not have the advantage of really getting accustomed to Rohan first, which could have been a sort of intermediary stop. Pippin went from the breaking of the Fellowship to the Orcs to the Ents to Orthanc to Minas Tirith. His personality combined with inexperience is going to lead to some impulsivity. Pippin feels that he has something to prove. The whole reason he is going with Gandalf is because of his mistake with the Palantir; no doubt he will feel he has to make up for it. Then he comes in and the men immediately doubt him, so he associates himself with Boromir to heighten their esteem. (Actually, this may have been a pretty good idea if Boromir weren't dead...) Maybe he didn't think it would do any harm in letting them know about Boromir's death. Pippin tries hard. He just does not yet have the wisdom and the experience to deal with the situation he is thrown into. |
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#20 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Numbers seem to be invested with significance in Arda, just as we invest them with great meaning. Seven is a number with a lot of symbolism. It is a lucky number, it is also significant in Judaism, Christianity and Islam, it numbers those planets/stars/moons in our own system we can see without a telescope. But I think all numbers have their own particular significance within Arda itself, without any reference to how we view them; Tolkien must have been trying to establish a similar history of symbols and symbolism in his own creation.
There are, as far as I can find, several instances of seven being significant. The oldest seems to be Valacirca, the seven stars, which could be the root of all the following symbolism. Then we have the seven fathers of the Dwarves (and the Dwarves are also given seven rings by Sauron), and the seven sons of Feanor. In terms of places, there are seven gates in Gondolin, the seventh being seven hundred (?) feet high, and Minas Tirith is on seven levels, each adding up to seven hundred feet. There are also seven Palantiri.
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#21 | |
Alive without breath
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Minas Tirith has a special place in my Tolkien filled heart. This is because it was the first thing I read of ANY Tolkien related things. And thus it didn't make a lot of sense, but I enjoyed it intensely and it encouraged me to read further.
The opening to this Chapter is what remains in my mind the most. Quote:
This is made clear right away from Pippin's first words; "Where are we, Gandalf?" Allowing Gandalf to explain, rather than the narrative. I was personally amused by Pippins presumption "are there Dragons in this land?" As we all know, a fantasy story is not complete until there are dragons. This made me think back to The Hobbit, and more specifically, its importance on the story. It is obvious that Bilbo's story had had an effect on Pippin, we know that Merry was the only one (besides Bilbo and Frodo) who had seen the manuscript and read it, I assume, Pippin knew the story already and Merry had told him all the extra bits he had read. I'll think of more to say later.
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Hobbits & Oath-Taking
In this chapter we have the third (or fourth, if we count Smeagol's) oath of service sworn by a Hobbit. Sam's is, as I pointed out in an earlier thread, the most subtle & the most easily missed: Quote:
Next, we have Frodo's oath: Quote:
So, Frodo's oath is more simple, because more specific, but more 'binding' because of that. Sam doesn't know what his oath binds him to do, what it will require of him, Frodo knows exactly what his oath requires of him. As Elrond says to Gimli, sworn word make break the heart. Next we have Smeaqgol's 'oath' sworn out a mixture of desire & fear. It is, os all the oaths, the one sworn least willingly, & the one sworn out of selfishness. It should never have been sworn, & much of the suffering that results from it comes as a direct result of this. Quote:
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#23 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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You can see that Pippin hasn't fully matured yet because if he had he might have thought twice before he offered his services to Denethor. He still lets his emotions guide him, but thet don't overtake him as much as they used to before.
He is also losing some of that innocence that he had back in book 1 or just some of his ignorance which led to curiosity and drove him to do silly things like throwing the rock down the well in Moria.
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#24 | ||||||
Illustrious Ulair
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Denethor seems to see the loss of Boromir as a personal assault on him. Theoden as a result can grieve his loss & move on, Denethor is broken by it, because he sees it as fate being out to get him - everyone is against him, out to destroy him. He is embattled, cut off, waiting for the inevitable end - why bother fighting? He does continue organising the defence of Gondor, but soon he will decide there is no point in that. When we first meet them Theoden seems a worse case than Denethor. The Steward seems more in control of himself, more powerful, more aware & defiant. In actual fact he only seems stronger. The reality is that he is brittle & ready to shatter. What he lacks is Theoden’s inner strength, which is only sleeping. His words to Gandalf later seem to show his wisdom in conflict with his pride: Quote:
Another thing that struck me was his statement Quote:
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The chapter ends with the (as I think Tolkien called it) ‘Homeric procession’ of forces from outlying parts of the Realm. Their appearance is greeted with joy, yet their passing into the city perhaps deepens the inhabitants’ sense of despair. They hoped for thousands & got hundreds. They need Rohan. The great Darkness sweeps over them in the night, & all the lights in the city have been dimmed. Even Gandalf states ‘There will be no dawn.’ On a first reading we feel their despair, on subsequent readings we know it is mistaken, & that a dawn will come, with the crowing of a cock, the departure of the Lord of the Nazgul - never to return - & the horns of Rohan. Another eucatasptrophe. It is always darkest before the dawn - even when we know the dawn is inevitable. This chapter, as much as it is about Pippin, is about Denethor. We may see the events through Pippin’s eyes, but on another level we see things from Denethor’s perspective: we adopt, without realising it, Denethor’s point of view. Its as if he truly is Gondor. His spirit has settled on the city & on us. Yet the words of Beregond also echo through this chapter: Quote:
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#25 | ||
Relic of Wandering Days
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The idea that Denethor has begun seeing himself as Gondor by this point rings very true and explains some of the Steward’s more mystifying behavior very well. But as for his seeming inconsistency of thought regarding lordship and dignity of his northern kindred, I would hazard to say that he probably thought them less worthy since Arvedui's time, when they had lost all the northern kingdoms. Though I doubt Denethor would have accepted Arvedui himself as king of Gondor viewing the traditional line held by Gondor regarding them.
To be a bit charitable to him on how he was spending his time, it is possible that Denethor only found time to meditate deeply on the broken horn while waiting for Gandalf and Pippin to arrive. And it appears that he was sharp at this point, not off in the deep end at all, even in Gandalf's eyes. So this 'prop' might have been chosen for it's effect in supporting the steward's show of real grief. Quote:
Also surprising was Pippin's notice of the joy under Gandalf's sorrow. It seems a very Christian concept. Ah yes, can't forget to mention this little quote, seeing where we are discussing this! Quote:
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#26 | ||
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,547
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#27 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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To the discussion of Pippin's character development (always an interesting topic to me), I'd like to add something that I've noticed particularly on this reading: his loneliness. This is accented by the necessity of responding to people as a rather ignorant foreigner who didn't even arrive of his own free will; he finds himself explaining to the Gondorians who he is and where he came from. This has happened before, but he was with Merry, whose presence, I suspect, was reassuring. "This is where I'm from, and here is my friend and kinsman who's from there too" is really very different from remarking that one is from the Shire and being regarded with suspicion (or amazement) because of it. Pippin, of course, is very socially adept and even manages to remain reasonably cheerful, but his loneliness is as evident and as important as his worry about battle in the things that bother him.
Of course, as soon as he enters Minas Tirith, he (intentionally or not) takes on a role within it, by swearing his oath. Denethor takes his opportunity to make him one of the knights of the city, giving him a particular place in the structure and schedule and duties, even if the specifics have not yet been made clear. Still, he speaks to Beregond because he is lonely, and finds Bergil good company in the absence of Merry, from whom he is now separated for the first time. Meanwhile, the Gondorians have all come up with their own explanations for who he is that he now has to field (and going from a fool of a Took to the Ernil i Pheriannath from one day to another has to be disorienting). So for the last part of the story, Pippin has to take on another identity, one not entirely of his choosing.. and he misses his friends. But he accepts it. Quote:
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#28 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
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It is tough to be alone in a new place with no friends. I really feel for Pippin because I experienced something like what he went through in Minas Tirith. (To a lesser extent)
I moved to a new place and had to start in Highschool in grade nine. Everyone knew everybody else and it was rather intimidating. Also because you are a tiny grade nine and there are many grade twelves who can sometimes give you a hard time. It is funny that both Merry and Pippin give an oath to serve Denethor or Theoden. It is probably because they both feel somewhat unwanted and alone. Like Pippin said "I feel like baggage" (or something like that, I might not have memorized it correctly) Both Hobbits have the desire to prove themselves and make themselves useful. I think this is definitly one of the reasons why Pippin offers his service appart from his emotional reasons.
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#29 | |||||||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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We meet few of the folk of Minas Tirith in the book, & I think this is why Faramir is such an important character in the story. Through him we are given a glimpse of the people of Gondor - though admittedly Faramir is not typical, he shows us that the Gondorians are a good people, fighting not just against Sauron, but to uphold an ideal. Apart from his men in Ithilien the first gondorian we meet is Ingold, one of the men building the Rammas:
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Beregond, on the other hand, is a Gondorian more in the ‘Faramir’ mouid. He is naturally respectful of Pippin, & wishes to learn from him. If Ingold is a man after Denethor’s heart, Beregond os of Faramir’s party. We perhaps see a ‘split’ in the Gondorians. On the one hand Faramir symbolises the positive, open, compassionate side, the side that loves art, history & knowlege for its own sake - the idealists, if you will. On the other we have the ‘Denethorians’ the isolationists, the ones who openly state ‘If you aren’t with us, you’re against us!’, who seek in history & knowlege only the power to dominate & rule others - ‘For their own good’, no doubt. Quote:
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But whatever else we can say about Beregond, he is an ordinary man. He is not in the counsels of the rulers. As much as Ingold, all he has to go on are rumours: Quote:
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Yet I wonder whether Beregond is completely in the grip of despair. It doesn’t take much to inspire him with hope: Quote:
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So, we come finally to Bergil. Bergil is interesting in two ways. First, he is, if not a ‘typical’ Gondorian child, he is typical of a certain kind - the ones who refused to leave the city. He is a ‘fighter’ & we see something of the spirit that has enabled Gondor to survive. Yet he is like his father in that fighting is not what he truly loves: ' Quote:
The other way Bergil is interesting is as part of a father-son pair. This pairing runs through the whole of the Legendarium & plays a central role in the two time travel tales Tolkien wrote. Yet within Middle earth we find this relationship repeatedly recurring. Sometimes it manifests positively, sometimes negatively - Tuor/Earendel, Barahir/Beren, Hurin/Turin, Elendil/Isildur, even the Bilbo/Frodo relationship is prety much father/son, & its interesting that in an early version of the Hobbit sequel the hero of the story was to be Bilbo’s son. Finally, we find Beregond turning up to wish Pippin goodnight, & doing his Warden Hodges impression: 'Can you find your way?' said Beregond at the door of the small hall, on the north side of the citadel, where they had sat. 'It is a black night, and all the blacker since orders came that lights are to be dimmed within the City, and none are to shine out from the walls. And I can give you news of another order: you will be summoned to the Lord Denethor early tomorrow. I fear you will not be for the Third Company. Still we may hope to meet again. Farewell and sleep in peace!' ‘Put those Lights out!’ Don’t you know there’s a war on!’ Now, I have to admit, knowing when the book was written, that came close to breaking the spell! |
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#30 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
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Faramir is stationed relatively far from Minas Tirith, and though he seems much less insular, I wonder what experience he himself can have had of people from outside Gondor? I can imagine that Men from the areas to the south such as Dol Amroth would have visited Gondor, but there can have only been limited opportunity to meet with 'foreigners'. Maybe this serves to underline Faramir's character, that he is more open to the Hobbits when he meets them?
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#31 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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On this 'insularity' thing. I'm wondering what to make of Faramir's account in Henneth Annun of 'some of us' still having dealings with the Elves - even going at times to Lorien, 'seldom to return'. Faramir does then go on to say that he deems it 'perilous' to have dealings with the Elves, so it seems that even he suffers from the 'insular' thinking of his fellows. I wonder, though. Maybe that has more to do with an awareness that the time of the Elves is over & that seeking them out is a dangerous clinging to the past - but then again he himself is full of yearning for what Gondor had been & the desire to see it return to that high state.
Faramir seems at one & the same time drawn to the past & knowing that he cannot go back. Like Frodo he seems to have realised that 'There is no real going back.' Its interesting that Tolkien chooses to bring Faramir back into the reader's consciousness through Beregond's reference to him. Its as though he realised Faramir's vital symbolic importance. Faramir shapes our view of what Gondor is. Tolkien can only present us with such flawed Gondorians because of Faramir & he seems to realise that to let us forget him would be a serious mistake if we are to remain 'on side'. |
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#32 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
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The way Pippin was treated by the Gondorians at the gate always made me wonder at how isolated they were. Throughout the chapter there is a sense of isolation. This isolation came about because of their nearness to Mordor and the spread of evil. Thus the white city knows very little of what is out there. And most of the strange things they hear about they immediatly dismiss as legends or myths. This seems rather ironic to me since their ancestors, the numenoreans, certainly had much more knowledge of the world they lived in then the Gondorians do now.
But throughout LOTR I always had this feeling that nobody except for the elves and Dunadain actually knew who else lived in their world. The hobbits like to stay in the shire, and the people of Bree stay close to Bree. The dwarves stay close to the lonely mountain and the people of Rohan also stay within their borders. This is probably because of the increasing dangers on the open road but in general nobody seems to care much about what is going on outside of their borders. Untill of course it becomes apparent that Sauron's forces can't be held back by Gondor alone.
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#33 |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
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The fact that Ingold asks "what" Pippin is just seems to reflect the uncertainty of the situation, what with war going on, and not being able to trust anyone. Also, it seems to me that people love to categorize other people, and if they can't then they get uneasy. When asked about my heritage or religion, people often ask, "What are you?" I'm tempted to reply, "Well, I'm human, female..."
![]() On a certain level, though, I can understand his reaction, which is near disdainful. Pippin doesn't look like much of a fighter, and Ingold has no way of knowing all that he's been through. He might view Pippin as just being in the way if he can't help fight. |
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#34 | |
Dead Serious
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The thought came to me that maybe this has to do with a deficiency in Tolkien's own life. We know that he never really knew his father. His mother may have died young, but he knew her and remembered her. His father is just more a vague influence, the "A.R. Tolkien" on the trunk. Curious... As to the chapter itself, this is one of my stated favourites. The "Homeric" procession of allies marching into the city is one of my favourite parts of the entire epic, ending with the magnificient Knights of Dol Amroth and their prince. Even though Minas Tirith has seen no actual fighting as yet, I got a much clearer feeling that this is an entire country at war that I ever did with Rohan. The regular populace seems a great deal closer and more real. Was it that Tolkien had a greater understanding of the way a major war in a city would be than of a fortress-based battle like Helm's Deep? Or does he understand the mentality of a city population better than that of a more rural Rohirric one?
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#35 | ||||
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
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There is little left for me to remark, everything important about Denethor and Pippin having been said.
Just some things I noticed. I only realized now that the riders Gandalf & Pip passed in the dark were errand riders of Gondor, and one of them must have been Hirgon. In several places Tolkien makes the connection to the Frodo & Sam - thread, to events that we already have read about, but that take place simultanously with the ones we read about now. Quote:
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And the description of the Pelennor is very accurate indeed (I had to look up a lot of words in the dictionary though: like fiefs, tilth, fold , byre, oast and garner...) I wondered also about the description of the road: "Wide and well-paved, and along its eastern edge ran a broad green riding-track, and beyond that a wall." This is exactly painted like this in a picture of Minas Tirith by Ted Nasmith! At this reading,I looked up on the map all the places where the troups from the outlands come from. (Incidentally, does everyone here know, that Pelennor is pronounced Pelennor? The movie crew obviously doesn't, and I am only sure where the stress is since I have heard Tolkien himself pronounce it on a CD!) The ancient culture in Gondor is such a contrast to the one where Pippin comes from! It is like a journey in a long past, medieval world. The Shire is much nearer to our world: the hobbits have family names like we have, but in Minas Tirith, Pippin Took becomes Peregrin son of Paladin, soldier of Gondor. In the Shire, they seem to have watches und measure time as we do, but in Minas Tirith the hours are counted from sunrise and rung with a bell. I find it very refreshing to meet Beregond (an almost "normal" Gondorian) , and especially Bergil. Yes, I wondered too, why his father let him stay in the city. But the boy himself finds it exciting and doesn't really realize the danger: "Almost I wish now that there was no war." he says to Pippin. Beregond's words about Denethor are pretty revealing: Quote:
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I find it a bit strange anyway, that the Gondorians can have completely forgotten the existance of the Palantiri...
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#36 |
Dead Serious
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This is always a favourite chapter of mine! Coming after Book IV, it is always the exciting return to the plots of Book III. It's the introduction to Minas Tirith, to Denethor. It's the first Pippin-centric chapter in the book (and Pippin immediately becomes my favourite point-of-view Hobbit). It's the beacons being lit. It's the Homeric procession entering the city. It's the darkness of Mordor falling as the chapter ends. It's Beregond and Bergil.
It's hard to top, is what it is. One small thing, looking back at past discussions of Denethor and wizards, is to realise (which we don't reading this chapter) is that Denethor and Aragorn are contemporaries--indeed, Aragorn is older by a couple years. But Denethor is an "old man," contrasted with Gandalf or Théoden, while Aragorn is just "a man." It puts into a different light what it means for Denethor to be old before his time--and Denethor is old more than anything else because of the palantír, something that Aragorn specifically turns to a litmus test of his authority.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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