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03-26-2004, 08:32 AM | #1 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Nazgul-Were they still Men?
I noticed something in the Books:
If the Nazgul were once Men, and Saruman could control Men, could Saruman sweet-talk the Nazgul into submission? Or could the Nazgul be subject to other things Men are subject to? I hope this hasn't been covered already...
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03-26-2004, 09:38 AM | #2 |
Hungry Ghoul
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Arguably, the sway Sauron had had on the Nazgűl since their 'enslavery' was too heavy to overcome for Saruman. However, that didn't prevent him from trying, and succeeding at least in improving his own standing:
"I will report this myself to the Lord of Barad-dűr," he said loftily, "to whom I speak from afar on great matters that concern us. But all that you need to know on the mission that he has given you is where 'the Shire' lies. That, says Mithrandir, is northwest from here some six hundred miles, on the borders of the seaward Elvish country." To his pleasure Saruman saw that even the Witch-king did not relish that. You must cross Isen by the Fords, and then rounding the Mountains' end make for Tharbad upon Greyflood. Go with speed, and I will report to your Master that you have done so." |
03-26-2004, 11:20 AM | #3 | |
Hidden Spirit
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Yeah that. And as to
Quote:
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03-26-2004, 08:15 PM | #4 |
Wight
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I think that the Nazgul are not men anymore (They were once) For one thing, they don't die. Any mortal would probably have drowned when the the River Bruinen hit him. I think that Aragorn says "They were ONCE men."(Don't quote me on that ) He does in the movie anyway. The once means that they were men before Sauron made them his slaves.
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03-26-2004, 08:27 PM | #5 | |
Face in the Water
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Quote:
Better stop before I quote the whole movie ... But it was a movie quote. Is there anything similar in the books? |
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03-26-2004, 11:34 PM | #6 |
Pile O'Bones
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The Nazgul are wraiths, no longer human and "neither living nor dying" and therefore are not subject to anything mortal
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03-27-2004, 09:32 AM | #7 | |
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03-27-2004, 03:52 PM | #8 |
Hidden Spirit
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The wraiths are magic men. You can do a lot of things to change the appearance of men, but you can't change the fundamental essence of their souls. A Man is a Man until God says otherwise. You can nip and tuck all you like, and everybody may treat the subject like something else by the end (which might be a good thing), but it is still fundamentally a Man.
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03-28-2004, 09:04 PM | #9 |
Scion of The Faithful
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They are Men...
...albeit their spirits were bound to the Nine, and the One, hence, despite the slow vanishing of their bodies (the house of their spirits), they can't leave Arda.
The "wraith" was probably just a shorthand name for a houseless spirit wandering in Arda.
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03-29-2004, 12:38 AM | #10 |
Hidden Spirit
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No. Spirits can't interact with the world unless they have a body. Least not one so impotent as a man's.
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03-29-2004, 09:32 PM | #11 |
Scion of The Faithful
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Yes, they can't. That's why I said "houseless." They needed the cloaks to give them shape, and probably gauntlets to grasp their swords.
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03-29-2004, 11:15 PM | #12 |
Hidden Spirit
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Gauntlets and cloaks are a part of the world btw. They still have sinews, they are housed.
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03-30-2004, 12:41 AM | #13 | |
Scion of The Faithful
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A mistake...
They are not disembodied spirits, as I first thought...
Quote:
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03-30-2004, 12:54 PM | #14 |
Hidden Spirit
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I reckon that's what I said, yes.
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04-27-2004, 08:13 PM | #15 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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A tantalizingly vague question that can be taken many ways, bilbo_baggins.
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And burrahobbit has claimed of men that: Quote:
Is it not possible to consider bilbo's question as one concerning the extent to which the Nazgul were as fallable as men? This is not a question as to the natue of their transformation into wraiths--spirit vs body or how much they were enslaved--but what would be the various means by which they could be tempted. Would they be susceptible to flattery? to desire and lust? to revenge? Could Saruman appeal to these susceptibilties as the devil or satan has to men's vanities in stories over the ages? This is, I would suggest, a more philsophical and less textual way to consider just what is involved in Tolkien's creation of enslaved men. I also hear a small RPG bell ringing. Imagine a kind of Dorien Gray story here.
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04-27-2004, 08:29 PM | #16 | ||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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04-27-2004, 08:38 PM | #17 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Enslavement to Sauron
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Being enslaved to Sauron's will to the point that they could refuse the Gift of Men I think would eliminate such trivial matters as personal opinion, vanity, desire, etc. Their opinions would be the opinions of Sauron. They were not capable of deliberately doing anything against his interest.
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04-27-2004, 08:52 PM | #18 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Good point, Kuruharan. So the Wraiths would trust whoever Sauron trusted, want whatever Sauron wanted, etc.
As for when the Nazgul passed away, they would no doubt (corny as it sounds) be 'set free' from Sauron's enslavement and become the free-minded people they had been before Sauron swayed their minds. Except now they would be spirits, and not people. Does anyone think otherwise?
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04-27-2004, 09:34 PM | #19 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Nobody knows....
After the destruction of the Ring they were certainly set free of Sauron.
I would take it as virtually certain that they would then finally make their obligatory journey to the Halls of Mandos. Beyond that there is not much to go on. There was no clear idea of what the afterlife would be like. You just sort of go beyond the circles of the world and that is it for you.
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04-28-2004, 06:30 AM | #20 | ||
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Ambitious Ringwraiths?
Bęthberry
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04-28-2004, 09:22 AM | #21 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Wow! A lot more replies to this than I expected! Thanks to everyone for posting here, I really found some insight in what you guys said, thanks again.
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