Pipe Weed, Good or Bad

[Dark-Caranthir]

Did pipe weed, like tobbaco in this world, have a negative effect on the body. It has always puzzled me, Gandalf did it, all the hobbits did it and I'm sure some men did it but were there any deaths from smoking?

[Selmo]

The hobbit's pipe-weed was tobacco and would have had the same effect in Middle Earth as it does in our own world.

Perhaps hobbits had fewer health problems than we do because they were not heavy smokers. A pipe-full smoked outside the front door on a pleasant morning and another by the fire-side in the evening isn't as dangerous as smoking forty cigarettes a day.

Remember that when Tolkien placed a pipe in Bilbo's hands in the nineteen-thirties, the dangers of tobacco were not fully understood.

[ilon]

I think tobacco and cigarretes are different maybe the manufacturers altered the tobaccoes, tobaccos may do something good to humans and to hobbits too, but anything abused does more harm than good.

[Bill Ferny]

I wonder if a thread discussing the hobbits use of alchohol is called for? Or is use of alchohol not counter to the new morality?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I fear that it may be, Bill: those naughty Hobbits will lead us all astray with their tobacco and their beer. I bet that they ate too much red meat and animal fat as well, the little scamps.

In my opinion, it's rather an endearing quality of the Shire that its inhabitants don't seem to worry about their health. I mean to say: would it really be such a nice place if the Hobbits were forever on diets or trying to give up smoking? Moreover, I'm given to wonder where this sort of question will lead us. Shall we discuss whether or not the coffee that Bilbo offered the Dwarves was decaffeinated? Should we spend hours considering the possibility that Fredegar Bolger might develop a heart condition? Will we ask whether it might have been better for Sam to make Frodo a nice bowl of muesli instead of stewed rabbit? I think it best that we apply our health concerns to our own lifestyles and let Hobbits be Hobbits. It is all make-believe after all.

[Amanaduial the archer]

i doubt it has the same effect in arda as in our world- come on, this is a world where immortals rule, theres an entire reace of people under 4 feet and giant beasties made from flame!

Still, imagine how unhealthy the hobbits life style would be- many many meals(see, not just many, but MANY many!)smoking, drinking, red meat, next to no real excerise for anyone out of their tweens...how did these guys live to be more than 30?!

[Selmo]

Hobbits are a sensible folk.

We enjoy our pipes and our beer, but not too much of either. Moderation in all things, except good-will, would be a good motto for any hobbit.

Don't be fooled by our liking of good food. Our meals may be frequent but, like us, they are small. Any biologist will tell you that small animals need to feed more often than large ones.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Please don't forget that, in between those meals, most hobbits were out in the fields planting, weeding, and sowing. All that work was carried out by hand, or only with animals to help. There were no factories or cars belching out pollution.

Food was cooked from scratch; there were no chemical preservatives or meals of grease a la fast-food lines. Given the lack of refrigeration, I also think meat may have been rarer than in our day. Certainly, that was true of the medieval peasant.

Plus, although not perfect by any standard, there seems to have been a relative lack of stress in day-to-day Shire life when compared with our own.

So I would guess that their overall health would have been good, pipeweed or not.

sharon

[Diamond18]

I think that the fact that all the gluttony, smoking and drinking did not shorten the life span of hobbits or degrade their quality of life is as much fantasy on Tolkien's part as magic rings, Balrogs, Elves, etc. etc.

[Frodo Baggins]

Yes, Selm, all things in moderation, except good wil and kindness.
Ans no, we don't smoke our pipe weed as ofen as you amy thing, once or twoce a day ususlayy. And pipe-smoking is the safest way anyway. Just ask Tirned Tinnu!
Give us hobbits a break! If waht we do is soo unhealthy then why do at least half of us live to be 100 or more?

[Arwen Imladris]

One other thing to consider is that nowadays, they put so much other garbage into cigarettes, tar and other nasty chemicals. It is more those chemicals that causes cancer and things that are the probelem with smoking. For hobbits, they did not put in all of those chemicals. Smoking was probebly still bad, but not as bad.

[Helkasir]

Hobbit Drug lords. Heehee.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Squatter of Amon Rudh:

Thank you. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

* Bows a friendly greeting. Borrows your cloak, tosses it up into the air with a mighty fling. While your cloak flaps in the breeze and floats gently to the greensward, three leather pouches appear in mid-air. The wizard catches them, juggles them for a spell then tosses them to you: a tan pouch contains Old Toby, an ivory-hued pouch holds Southern Star, the last mahogony-colored pouch carries within Longbottom Leaf *

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

[Diamond18]

Give us hobbits a break! If waht we do is soo unhealthy then why do at least half of us live to be 100 or more?

Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Doesn't anyone agree with me that the only reason their lifestyle wasn't detrimental is because Tolkien didn't want it to be?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Diamond18--

Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Doesn't anyone agree with me that the only reason their lifestyle wasn't detrimental is because Tolkien didn't want it to be?

Sorry, I don't. You're too grounded in the year 2002. Way back when Tolkien wrote these tales, there was little recognition of the health risks of tobacco or cholesterol or even obesity. Believe me, I grew up in the 1950s. You would faint if you saw the breakfasts we ate then. Loaded with every terrible, greasy substance known to man!

These health considerations were nowhere in Tolkien's mind when he wrote his tales. He wasn't doing a "fantasy cover-up." Tolkien couldn't "wish away" negative health consequences beause he didn't even know such health consequences existed.

Remember that Tolkien's pipesmoking scenes stand for something beyond mere physical activity. They are scenes of camaraderie and male bonding. The reason they feel so real is that they were drawn directly from the academic and literary gatherings which were so important to him. This is what male academics did in the 1940s and l950s (even the 60s) so Tolkien's hobbits do it too.

The same is true for the hobbit use of food. The hobbits weren't gluttons, but food played an important part in their society. It was part of the give and take of families in a close knit rural community. The fact that many of the hobbit families, at least the working class ones, actually raised and produced that food made it all the more meaningful. Ever taste a vegetable or fruit you raised yourself? It just tastes better.

Sometimes today, we focus so much on the calories and fat grams that we take away all that elemental delight. Tolkien's hobbits were still childlike enough, in the very best sense of that word, that they could still see the joy of simple things.

In a similar vein to this thread, Michael Martinez had an essay in his Suite 101 website complaining that PJ should not have included the pipesmoking scenes in the movie. He said it was a bad example for the young people who saw the movie, and mentioned the fact that he had personally lost a number of relatives to cancer.

Again, I don't agree with Martinez. I lost my own dad to lung cancer, but that isn't a reason to "censor" the smoking out of the movie. I don't believe people take up serious pipesmoking merely because they see the film. What do we do next? Also, censor these scenes from the books? Rubbish!

In modern terms, I imagine that it might also be considered potentially dangerous to your health to have half the male population running around with real swords and axes strapped to their sides. After all, people get a bit heated up and, presto, you have some nasty wounds. Does that mean we should edit those scenes out too?

We are talking about Middle-earth, a world of imagination. In that context, I refuse to be bound by the social conventions of our own day. I'm not talking basic morals here, but those things that ebb and flow from generation to generation. Believe me! Forty years from now our grandchildren will delight in pointing out to us all the "bad habits" we exhibit which we don't yet even know exist. Let's not judge literature by standards like this that shift in the sands.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Diamond18]

You misunderstand me, Child of the 7th Age. I wouldn't dream of editing out pipeweed and ale from the movie. And yes, I've been reading the ancient threads in the movie section and I read the one about the petition to keep it out. Balderdash.

I'm just responding to the people here who are trying to come up with explanations such as "smoking pipes isn't as bad as cigarettes." It IS just as bad in the real world, but the book and the movie isn't the real world. Therefore, it's pointless to try to explain why hobbits weren't harmed by it.

[Kalimac]

Child, you said everything [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

It is rather anachronistic to criticize a movie like this because it shows smoking; ESPECIALLY a movie like this; I mean, it's next to impossible to run down to your local drugstore and pick up a pack of Southfarthing Cigs. As for whether it's good or bad for the hobbits - well, once you start something like that, it's hard to stop. If the pipeweed is bad for hobbits, can Sam's carbohydrate-laden taters be any better? That rabbit Gollum caught probably wouldn't be FDA-approved after he'd had his hands on it. How far past its sell-by date was that lembas?

It's not that the stuff is good or bad for them, the standards for judging them simply don't exist in that world and weren't created until very recently (and occasionally I wish they hadn't been - imagine growing up in a time when having a good steak meant you were lucky and not guiltily starving yourself for the next 3 days to work off the calories).

No worries here. In the end, we're all dead (except Elves).

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Child of the 7th Age:

You say,

Remember that Tolkien's pipesmoking scenes stand for something beyond mere physical activity. They are scenes of camaraderie and male bonding.

Exactly so! Personally, even when I light up a pipe here at the Barrow Downs, it's my way of signalling / expressing interest in being sociable.

You went on to say,

I imagine that it might also be considered potentially dangerous to your health to have half the male population running around with real swords and axes strapped to their sides.

There's an epee blade that's been sitting unused in my closet for nearly ten years. I've considered giving it away to the Goodwill, but am rather afraid of being sued or some silly thing. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Gandalf the Grey

[Child of the 7th Age]

Diamond18--

You misunderstand me, Child of the 7th Age. I wouldn't dream of editing out pipeweed and ale from the movie

No, I wasn't referring to you concerning the "editing out" charges. I understood you weren't asking for this. But Michael Martinez was, at least about tobacco.

Sorry if this was not clear.

sharon

[Elendur]

From the standpoint that Tolkien didn't know any negative consequences to pipeweed, couldn't you say that there was none in Middle Earth? If you think about what would have literally happened to Gandalf after smoking for so long or that simple things like Bilbo developing a cough never happened, it's obvious that pipeweed only had good effects on the person smoking it (Clearing the mind i.e. allowing Gandalf to think or just a nice way to relax).

That's how I see it.

[Taure Leafsilver]

A-men! It just not a health hazard in ME. Plus scince it was pure tobacco and al natural, It would'nt be as bad.......more like smokeing...mint or some other herb

smokeing MINT????? What was I thinking???!!

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Taure Leafsilver ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It would'nt be as bad.......more like smokeing...mint or some other herb

Oh, smoking pure tobacco gives you a nasty cough and inevitably leads to all sorts of health problems too. The only difference is that cigarette manufacturers add things like bleach and plastic, which may or may not make matters worse. The tar is quite natural, I assure you. As has been most ably pointed out by others, however, Tolkien didn't know about the dangers of smoking, and I suspect that he wouldn't have paid much attention to them if he had.

Thanks, Child. Tolkien was looking beyond the petty fads of everyday life towards something more fundamental to the human condition. If we try to shoe-horn our own society's transient values into his work we will either make ourselves or the fiction look foolish. I don't think that we want to do that.

Gandalf: *Deftly fields the three pouches, each of which disappears in turn into his voluminous pockets*

On the contrary, I am entirely at yours. Bis das si cito das, as they say.

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[ilon]

We can't call them druglords for they grow their own weeds for their own consumption. And maybe Tolkien didn't regard them as bad vices.

No people, i'm not serious.

[Diamond18]

I'm curious, Squatter, what makes you think realizing the dangers of smoking is a "petty fad." Just because Tolkien and other people of his day didn't realize the problems, it doesn't mean they didn't exist in the real world.

(Edit: aren't italics pretty? I sure was a lazy bugger.)

[ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[akhtene]

I KNOW THAT SMOKING IS BAD! - this is to stop the possible health lecture [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
For a hobbit smoking a pipe after dinner in a pleasant company it must be the way to tell the rest of the world:"I don't belong to you for a while, but only to myself and those who are sharing the pipe with me".
Anyway, those who know me well agree not to bother me when I'm smoking (it's just useless) or when I'm reading (it's dangerous)
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Hey, any spare pouch of decent weed for the one already dead? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I'm curious, Squatter, what makes you think realizing the dangers of smoking is a "petty fad." Just because Tolkien and other people of his day didn't realize the problems, it doesn't mean they didn't exist IN THE REAL WORLD.

There's no need to shout. Italics will serve to emphasise your point.

I don't think that recognising the dangers of smoking is a petty fad. What I consider to be a petty fad is the elevation of healthy living to the status of a moral issue, whereby it ceases to be a personal choice and becomes something imposed by society.
To put things more clearly: the truth never changes, but people's perceptions of it are transient and are usually inspired by the culture in which they live. Tolkien wanted to get closer to the truth by escaping from his own society's opinions and attitudes, so to apply those of our own to his work is merely to return it to the fetters that he strove so hard to break.
To make matters worse, smoking is a mere detail of his world; a quaint custom among the people of the Shire rather than a central theme. Only in North-American and some European countries is it, if you will excuse the pun, a burning issue.

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[davem]

There seem to be a lot of members who suffer from the 'Elvish vice' - i.e. not smoking the weed! Can I just make one point, for what its worth, & the health fascists will probably want my blood after this, but I used to suffer with 2 or 3 really bad colds a year till I took up a pipe 2 years back. since then, barely a mild sniffle. So there. By the way, could we have nominations for best pipe weed? My favorite of all time is American Coffee Caramel flavour.

[HerenIstarion]

by Legolas to smoking Aragorn, Gimli, Pippin and Merry


'Come now!' he said. 'Time wears on, and the mists are blowing away, or would if you strange folk did not wreathe yourselves in smoke

elves considered smoking as "strange" habit.

Aragorn to Merry in MT, considering possibilities of getting tobacco


And he will tell you that he did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but that it is called westmansweed by the vulgar, and galenas by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned, and after

gondorians were not smoking

so? nothing, just considering

[Bill Ferny]

I agree with Squatter in theory, though maybe not in emphasis. From my experience in the real world, those who do not live healthy lifestyles end up being a termendous drain on society.

However, pointed attacks against smoking miss the target all together. The fact of the matter is that heart diasese, obesity, STDs, unwanted pregnancies, and terrible driving habits land people without insurance in the emergency room far more often than lung cancer and emphazima. The coerosive affects of achohol and drugs are just as damaging to the individual and society on a pychological level as the physical affects of immoderate smoking.

Don't get me wrong! Smoking, even in moderation, is certialy not physically healthy, and it does cause lung cancer and emphazima, slows down recovery time after injury, and is damaging to a fetus.

However, other poor living conditions, such as poor diets (fast-food), lack of excersise (sitting at computers all day), and stress (unhealthy interaction with others and poor life managing) are equal contributing factors to poor health. If you are going to mark smoking as the devil, you should also be prepared to equally attack fast-food, luxury technology, and how people live and work with others and manage their day to day lives.

Back to Tolkien: Hobbits seem to live very healthy lives. They excersize, eat well, enjoy (for the most part) healthy interpersonal relationships, and seem to have a good handle on what is truly important in life. Thus, occassionally smoking or drinking doesn't seem to be all that unhealthy, and might even, as Gandalf said, "help to clear the mind of shadows within."

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Diamond18]

There's no need to shout. Italics will serve to emphasise your point.

Er...sorry.

[Tirned Tinnu]

Frankly I'm flabbergasted at the notion that none of you have mentioned the history of society's attitude towards smoking in Tolkien's work.

In the sixties it was widely believed (by hippies and their detractors) that Tolkien's Hobbits were actually smoking marijuana, or some like substance rather that simple tobacco. As I recall this caused a flurry of anger towards Tolkien's work, some claiming "The Hobbit" and LOTR as books for malcontents, even communists, simply because of the mention of pipe weed, overindulgence, and their effects on society.

I have never believed that Tolkien made mention of what exactly Hobbit-weed was, but it certainly would have not been anything to cloud the mind. it might not have been tobacco, but I think it most certainly was something with a calming effect. There are other things to smoke in this world besides tobacco and marijuana. Take for instance the American Indians' habit of smoking cherry bark and tobacco mixed, sometimes even adding substances like Lobelia and Cohosh. I believe that the hobbit-smoke could have been any of a number of different herbs. In the end, though, I think Tolkien meant it to be tobacco.

If Tolkien wrote of it as a means toward showing the joys of polite society, one would of course take it in the context of his own society. Hearth, fire, one mug of ale before retiring or after a hard days work, and good meal befitting a farmer are the elements of an everyday workman's life. This is what he meant to portray, not Capitalist hoohah and overindulgence.

In this and age we think much too hard on what will keep us from dying rather than how to live well. We are far too preoccupied with extending our years rather than with making the most of what we've got. Who wants to be a miserable person, never being able to enjoy things in life because we're too old to do anything? What of the route there, denying ourselves till we are mere miserable shadows of ourselves?
I would rather be known for living moderately and loving life than for living too well or too meagerly.

Having said all of this, I will admit that I partake of a puff and a mug once in a while, and not overdoing it has brought me to the ripe age of 38 without so much as a grunt from my doctor. I do think it has something to do with genes. My mother still looks about 40 even though she is about to pass 60. Hobbits must have had stout bodies. Gandalf himself commented on their capacity for beating ills of the body. We have seen that Frodo was able to stave off the Nazgul-blade far longer than any man. It is also interesting that Hobbits are not often talked about as being drunk, nor do they appear to suffer hangovers! Lucky little bastards.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[doug*platypus]

Pipeweed is tobacco?! So certain are you?

Hmph. That young Peter Jackson chap has been leading me astray.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

This is the first time the search engine has found something I wanted. You know why? Because I have only now discovered the 'title only' option. Huzzah!

Anywho, I was considering starting a new thread about Aragorn (good thing I searched first) and his smoking habits.

Aragorn, just how fit and healthy is this guy? He can tramp over the lands almost non-stop and never get tired. He can battle on all day. He quite often doesn't sleep at night. I was thinking to myself "How can a smoker do that?"

Thanks to your insight I've decided that Aragorn didn't really smoke that much after all (compared with the 40 cigs a day folk nowadays), and combined with the other factors of eating healthily and exercising consistently, thats why a smoker can turn out to be so good.

Plus that Numenorean blood might have helped!

[ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: Eomer of the Rohirrim ]

[Selmo]

Some posters have questioned the fact that Tolkien's pipeweed is tobacco.
It definitely is.

In the prologue to "Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring", Tolkien refers to pipeweed as Nicotiana, the botanists' name for the tobacco plant.

[HCIsland]

thats why a smoker can turn out to be so good.

The detrimental effects of tobacco smoking were not known at the time Tolkien wrote LoTR. I don't think you need to go searching for reasons why these guys are not suffering from emphysema.

H.C.

[Bill Ferny]

Aragorn, just how fit and healthy is this guy? He can tramp over the lands almost non-stop and never get tired. He can battle on all day. He quite often doesn't sleep at night. I was thinking to myself "How can a smoker do that?"

I’m no Aragorn, mind you, but I smoke a little less than a pack a day, and still manage to run four to five miles a day, and at a pretty good clip, considering my advancing years.

[Mister Underhill]

I can also imagine Aragorn having to carefully ration his weed supply during long treks abroad from the Eriador and Gondor areas. Nothing to help you go cold turkey more than your supply running out while you’re stuck in Harad or tromping through the Dead Marshes.

[Tar-Palantir]

Just to echo Bill Ferny a bit: I am a marathon and ultramarathon runner and it is not uncommon to see runners before and after a race ducking behind trees (or their cars) for a quick puff.

Keep in mind that the detrimental effects of smoking are not simply from the addictive drug nicotine. Tobacco today is processed with dozens of nasty chemicals, from processing agents to flavor enhancers to preservatives.

Physical damage to the lungs is the major concern for all smokers. The smoke itself is hot and can quite literally burn the lungs. Chief among what are destroyed are the alveoli, whose job it is to extract oxygen from the air you breathe. They are never restored once damaged, but one can increase their oxygen capacity in other ways. A little thing call anaerobic threshold reflects to what degree you are able use the oxygen in your blood. If you have a sedentary lifestyle devoid of periods of elevated heart rate, this number will be low regardless of how much air your breathe in. Conversely, even one who has a restricted lung capacity but a high anaerobic threshold, will be able to perform much better in most physically demanding tasks.

Additionally, only the heavier smokers will actually choke their throat and lungs with, well, phlegm. Which further hinders breathing. Pipe smokers (as in LotR), and cigar smokers especially, generally do not inhale to the degree of cigrette smokers. That is where pot-smoking is at the bottom of the barrel and the most detrimental. They enjoy not only inhaling fully, but hold it in their lungs as long as possible. And in huge draughts not puffs. Also they like to smoke the reprodudtive buds of the female plants rather than leaf which is what the Hobbits are smoking. Leaf is referred to as prime in the Shire, and considered only a last resort to the pot smoker. Just pointing out the obvious difference there.

Moreover, those in today's societies, especially those with a Western lifestyle, ratchet up the risk by their sedentary lifestyles, poor artery clogging diets, high blood pressure, major organ taxation with alcohol over-indulgences, high stress from work and sometimes the confusion of misplaced priorties - TV speaks more volume of that last one than I possibly could.

Anywho - If smoking is not heavily compounded with other risk factors, a little here and there won't kill you or Aragorn.



[ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[The Saucepan Man]

Some posters have questioned the fact that Tolkien's pipeweed is tobacco.
It definitely is.

Yup. In The Hobbit, Chapter 1, An Unexpected Party, Bilbo says to Gandalf:

And a very fine morning for a pipe of tobacco out of doors, into the bargain

So the Hobbits' pipeweed was definately tobacco, or as Tar-Palantir rightly points out, the leaf of the tobacco plant. And yes, it is doubtful that the Hobbits added to Longbottom Leaf and the like the kind of additives that go into most tobacco products today.

I agree that the risk of serious disease for those in Middle Earth who indulged in pipesmoking would generally be less than for the average smoker in our world due to their otherwise healthy lifestyle.

But there is also another point to consider. As I understand it, in addition to precluding death from old age, immortality also brings with it immunity from disease. I seem to recall it being said in the Silmarillion that Elves could not die of old age or disease, but could be physically slain, for example by means of a blow from a weapon (in which case they went to the Halls of Mandos).

The question is, does that immunity relate only to externally caused diseases, ie those caused by bacteria and viruses, or does it also extend to internally caused diseases, such as cancer, heart disease etc? If the latter, then Elves would be at no risk whatsoever from tobacco. However, it seems from Legolas' comments at Isengard that Elves did not indulge, which is kind of ironic if they were the only race not to be at any risk. Gandalf too, of course, would not be at risk, being a Maia and therefore immortal. Possibly Aragorn, who had Elven blood in his veins, albeit very much diluted, would have had a stronger resistance to disease, although that seems doubtful since the immunity appears to be a function of immortality rather than simply Elven ancestry.

Overall, however, I think that the combination of the purity of the tobacco, the relatively low level of indulgence and the otherwise healthy lifestyle meant that the risk for the non-immortal races was very much lower than the average smoker in our world.

[greyhavener]

I think Tolkien has been pictured with his pipe in several photos. As someone as already mentioned, nobody knew it was unhealthy in the thirties. If smoking is as enjoyable as it looks, if I were Tolkien I think I'd give pipeweed medicinal purposes and make it a healthy activity in my fantasy. After all, it's his story and he gets to make up the physical rules of Middle Earth.