The Greatest - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tarlondeion Of Gondolin · 12-13-2001, 04:20 PM

Who are the Greatest of each race:

Elves
Men
Dwarves
Hobbits

Even Balrogs and Orcs

***Mithadan*** · 12-13-2001, 04:46 PM

Feanor
Beren
Azhagal
Frodo

Ereinion · 12-13-2001, 06:13 PM

Well...Balrogs would be Gothmog and everything else is about right.

Orald · 12-13-2001, 06:41 PM

Very cute Mithadan, but don't you think the question is too broad to be so specific. I would have at least included several people in the elves humans and dwarves category.

I think Feanor and Galadriel were about equal, but Feanor might have been just slightly greater. And as for Dwarves, unless it mentions Azhagal(I am fairly sure it doesn't) Then Durin the Deathless would be right up there at the top to me, and then maybe Azhagal and Telchar and a few others. And Men, to many different kinds of men to even start, I mean what about that Druedain in UT...

Of course we all have our own ideas of what makes someone great and with the few exceptions of where Tolkien explicitely states, but I am sure everyone already understands this and this was a wasted post

***Mister Underhill*** · 12-13-2001, 07:11 PM

Fëanor
Húrin
Azaghâl
Frodo
Gothmog
Boldog [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

onewhitetree · 12-13-2001, 07:40 PM

I can agree with all of these except Frodo.

I think Sam was greater. You all know the characters, so I won't explain. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Elrian · 12-13-2001, 07:40 PM

Glorfindal
Earendil
Durin
Frodo
Gothmog

red · 12-13-2001, 07:41 PM

Elves: me
Men: Harrison Ford
Dwarves: Doc
Hobbits: Bélle

Mhoram · 12-13-2001, 07:42 PM

Orc: Thraktrak the Devastator

Hobbit: Harding Tunnelly from Bywater

Elf: Maltaharmaion

Dwarf: Trán Thundersinger

Inziladun · 12-13-2001, 08:09 PM

Elf: Fëanor
Dwarf: Dáin II Ironfoot
Man: Tuor
Hobbit: Bilbo Baggins
Balrog: The one in Moria
Orc: Azog

Ionia Luffs Reindeer · 12-13-2001, 09:56 PM

Sam's kind of an unsung hero, isn't he? Takes a lot of steely guts to do a lot of what Sam did.

/pointlesspost

Elrian · 12-13-2001, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by red:
<STRONG>Elves: me
Men: Harrison Ford
Dwarves: Doc
Hobbits: Bélle</STRONG>

Harrison Ford, Good one Red! I didn't think of actors, mine should be Hugo Weaving then

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

obloquy · 12-14-2001, 12:29 AM

It depends on your idea of "great". I think Hurin is an excellent choice for "greatest" Man in Middle-earth. I think he's a more all-around "great" Man than, say, Turin or Beren. Beren had wonderful character, but lacked the sheer strength and fighting prowess of Turin. On the other hand, Turin was mighty, but had a much less desirable temperament. Hurin gets my vote here.

According to the Silmarillion, Feanor was the greatest of the Noldor. That's not to say he was unrivaled -- Galadriel, Gil-galad, Finrod, and Fingolfin all come to mind. Obviously, though, Thingol and Olwe of the Teleri, or Ingwe of the Vanyar can't be said to be less great than Feanor based on this statement. However, I seem to recall reading that the Noldor were the mightiest race of Elves.

Am I rambling? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

obloquy · 12-14-2001, 12:38 AM

Azaghal, huh? Fill me in on this fellow. From what I can find, it seems he is merely responsible for wounding Glaurung before being slain by him. That's about all the information on Azaghal I've managed to find.

Telchar · 12-14-2001, 01:49 AM

Galadriel - for reasons stated by JRRT
Turin or Tuor
Durin Father of the Longbeards - possibly TELCHAR
Sam - no doubt...

***Sharkû*** · 12-14-2001, 06:22 AM

As said before, it really depends on the definition of greatest. By strength, skill, battle prowess, and achievements, the greatest of the races certainly have been already named.

However, we probably have to see the whole thing within the cosmology, which is unevitably tied to the morals and values of Middle-Earth, in order to give a judgement whom the author would have assumed as being the 'greatest'. For some, he said it more or less explicitally in the books - such as Fëanor being the greatest elf in skill and mind alike (not verbatim, but close, I think).

Nevertheless 'my' 'author's choices' would be something like that:

Lúthien of Elves, (can't get better than 50% Maiarin) or maybe Ingwë or Finwë.

Eärendil of Men. He was much greater in the myth than the short fragment of the Silmarillion tells. Other choices might be Aelfwine or Eriol.

Dwarves: Durin the Deathless. Interestingly, the opinions diverge over this practically quite clear case.

Hobbits: Bilbo Baggins or Samwise Gamgee. Tough call.

Balrogs and orcs? There were none that were 'great'. If you mean 'mighty (in evil', Gothmog is the obvious one, and Boldog for orcs, I think (although Uglúk was a meanie, too).

Fenrir · 12-14-2001, 08:17 AM

Elves: Finrod
Men: Hurin
Dwarves: Durin the Deathless
Hobbits: Samwise
Balrogs: Gothmog
Orcs: Azog
Dragons: Glaurung
Valar: Mandos

Tarlondeion Of Gondolin · 12-14-2001, 01:56 PM

In the Hobbit bit we are all forgeting that Bilbo also went through a lot of danger and he was an unsung hero because without him the ring would never have passed into the hands of those who could destroy it.

Elves: Feanor
Men: Earendil
Dwarves: Durin
Hobbits: Bilbo Baggins
Balrogs: Gothmog
Orcs: Boldog

Elrian · 12-14-2001, 10:30 PM

If we are going to add Dragons and Valar, that would be:
Ancalagon
Manwe

And Greates Istari: Gandalf

12-15-2001, 08:40 AM

Elves: Gil-Galad son of Fingon

Men: Denethor II steward of Gondor

Dwarves: Thiazi, who built the countless bridges over the chasm of Khazad-Dûm

Hobbits: Trotter

Balrogs: That wingless one in Moria

Orcs: the goblin king

Maiar: Tom Bombadil

Trolls: the sun-resistant ones in the First Age

Valar: Gandalf/Manwë

Dragons: the mechanical ones at the fall of Gondolin

Aiwendil · 12-15-2001, 10:44 AM

Quoth obloquy:

Quote:

Obviously, though, Thingol and Olwe of the Teleri, or Ingwe of the Vanyar can't be said to be less great than Feanor based on this statement.

I believe it states in UT (in the Galadriel and Celeborn section I believe) that Feanor and Galadriel were the greatest of the Eldar in Aman, or something like that. So that rules out Ingwe and Olwe.

obloquy · 12-15-2001, 05:12 PM

Good call, Aiwendil. Here it is:

Quote:

For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.

Here's another pertinent quote from the same chapter in Unfinished Tales:

Quote:

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.

That still doesn't eliminate Thingol or Luthien, but I think we can safely say that if either of them had been "greater" Tolkien would likely have mentioned it.

By the way, Galadriel and I are getting married. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

12-13-2001, 04:20 PM	#1
Tarlondeion Of Gondolin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Gondolin the fair Posts: 94	The Greatest Who are the Greatest of each race: Elves Men Dwarves Hobbits Even Balrogs and Orcs

12-13-2001, 04:46 PM	#2
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,343	Feanor Beren Azhagal Frodo __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

12-13-2001, 07:40 PM	#6
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	I can agree with all of these except Frodo. I think Sam was greater. You all know the characters, so I won't explain. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

12-13-2001, 07:40 PM	#7
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Glorfindal Earendil Durin Frodo Gothmog __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

12-13-2001, 07:41 PM	#8
red Spirit of Mischief Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Land of the free and home of the brave Posts: 366	Elves: me Men: Harrison Ford Dwarves: Doc Hobbits: Bélle __________________ "Cats are like greatness: Some people are born into cat-loving families, some achieve cats, and some have cats thrust upon them." -William H. A. Carr

12-13-2001, 06:13 PM	#3
Ereinion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Coventry, RI Posts: 26	Well...Balrogs would be Gothmog and everything else is about right.

12-13-2001, 06:41 PM	#4
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Very cute Mithadan, but don't you think the question is too broad to be so specific. I would have at least included several people in the elves humans and dwarves category. I think Feanor and Galadriel were about equal, but Feanor might have been just slightly greater. And as for Dwarves, unless it mentions Azhagal(I am fairly sure it doesn't) Then Durin the Deathless would be right up there at the top to me, and then maybe Azhagal and Telchar and a few others. And Men, to many different kinds of men to even start, I mean what about that Druedain in UT... Of course we all have our own ideas of what makes someone great and with the few exceptions of where Tolkien explicitely states, but I am sure everyone already understands this and this was a wasted post

12-13-2001, 07:11 PM	#5
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,743	Fëanor Húrin Azaghâl Frodo Gothmog Boldog [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

12-13-2001, 07:42 PM	#9
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	Orc: Thraktrak the Devastator Hobbit: Harding Tunnelly from Bywater Elf: Maltaharmaion Dwarf: Trán Thundersinger

12-13-2001, 08:09 PM	#10
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,035	Elf: Fëanor Dwarf: Dáin II Ironfoot Man: Tuor Hobbit: Bilbo Baggins Balrog: The one in Moria Orc: Azog __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

12-13-2001, 09:56 PM	#11
Ionia Luffs Reindeer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a padded cell somewhere... Posts: 35	Sam's kind of an unsung hero, isn't he? Takes a lot of steely guts to do a lot of what Sam did. /pointlesspost __________________ Because it was Christmas. And I DO love Reindeer. Does this amuse you?

12-14-2001, 12:29 AM	#13
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	It depends on your idea of "great". I think Hurin is an excellent choice for "greatest" Man in Middle-earth. I think he's a more all-around "great" Man than, say, Turin or Beren. Beren had wonderful character, but lacked the sheer strength and fighting prowess of Turin. On the other hand, Turin was mighty, but had a much less desirable temperament. Hurin gets my vote here. According to the Silmarillion, Feanor was the greatest of the Noldor. That's not to say he was unrivaled -- Galadriel, Gil-galad, Finrod, and Fingolfin all come to mind. Obviously, though, Thingol and Olwe of the Teleri, or Ingwe of the Vanyar can't be said to be less great than Feanor based on this statement. However, I seem to recall reading that the Noldor were the mightiest race of Elves. Am I rambling? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

12-14-2001, 12:38 AM	#14
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	Azaghal, huh? Fill me in on this fellow. From what I can find, it seems he is merely responsible for wounding Glaurung before being slain by him. That's about all the information on Azaghal I've managed to find.

12-14-2001, 01:49 AM	#15
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	Galadriel - for reasons stated by JRRT Turin or Tuor Durin Father of the Longbeards - possibly TELCHAR Sam - no doubt... __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

12-14-2001, 06:22 AM	#16
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	As said before, it really depends on the definition of greatest. By strength, skill, battle prowess, and achievements, the greatest of the races certainly have been already named. However, we probably have to see the whole thing within the cosmology, which is unevitably tied to the morals and values of Middle-Earth, in order to give a judgement whom the author would have assumed as being the 'greatest'. For some, he said it more or less explicitally in the books - such as Fëanor being the greatest elf in skill and mind alike (not verbatim, but close, I think). Nevertheless 'my' 'author's choices' would be something like that: Lúthien of Elves, (can't get better than 50% Maiarin) or maybe Ingwë or Finwë. Eärendil of Men. He was much greater in the myth than the short fragment of the Silmarillion tells. Other choices might be Aelfwine or Eriol. Dwarves: Durin the Deathless. Interestingly, the opinions diverge over this practically quite clear case. Hobbits: Bilbo Baggins or Samwise Gamgee. Tough call. Balrogs and orcs? There were none that were 'great'. If you mean 'mighty (in evil', Gothmog is the obvious one, and Boldog for orcs, I think (although Uglúk was a meanie, too).

12-14-2001, 08:17 AM	#17
Fenrir Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nevrast Posts: 103	Elves: Finrod Men: Hurin Dwarves: Durin the Deathless Hobbits: Samwise Balrogs: Gothmog Orcs: Azog Dragons: Glaurung Valar: Mandos __________________ Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.

12-14-2001, 01:56 PM	#18
Tarlondeion Of Gondolin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Gondolin the fair Posts: 94	In the Hobbit bit we are all forgeting that Bilbo also went through a lot of danger and he was an unsung hero because without him the ring would never have passed into the hands of those who could destroy it. Elves: Feanor Men: Earendil Dwarves: Durin Hobbits: Bilbo Baggins Balrogs: Gothmog Orcs: Boldog

12-14-2001, 10:30 PM	#19
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	If we are going to add Dragons and Valar, that would be: Ancalagon Manwe And Greates Istari: Gandalf __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

12-15-2001, 08:40 AM	#20
The Abbreviator Guest Posts: n/a	Elves: Gil-Galad son of Fingon Men: Denethor II steward of Gondor Dwarves: Thiazi, who built the countless bridges over the chasm of Khazad-Dûm Hobbits: Trotter Balrogs: That wingless one in Moria Orcs: the goblin king Maiar: Tom Bombadil Trolls: the sun-resistant ones in the First Age Valar: Gandalf/Manwë Dragons: the mechanical ones at the fall of Gondolin