** General Comments on the Project & Sign Up Thread **

[lindil]

This thread is for general questions not answered by the **Intro/FAQ to the Forum/Project thread**

It is also the place for new project members members to sign up.

All of the old sign up posts have been removed from the Intro/FAQ thread and are now in the Misc/Archives thread. Any one who wants to can copy there old posts from there and place it here.

Also current members, if you have a question and it is particular to yourself please PM myself or Aiwendil instead of posting here.

[lindil]

Mhorham posted on another thread

Btw, I never did get a login and pass for the other forum, i'd like to have a look around in there though. Who knows, maybe this will revive my interest.

Sincere apologies Mhorham.
I will PM them to you today.

If this should happen to anyone else plese do not hesitate to post here and or PM myself or Aiwendil.

[Galadel Vinorel]

I'm afraid that I did not recieve those either, so could you please P.M. those to me soon as well, lindil? Thanks. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[lindil]

testing, please go back about your business....

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, I'd like to sign up someday. What I couldn't quite discern is whether or not there is a Printable version of what has been done to date.

I know the Silmarillion Proper backwards & forwards, and the Unfinished Tales quite well, having read both over many years, along with bunches of other stuff, but I have only done the Lost Tales among the HoME, so far, and it may take a while to read the rest, unless I quit my job, 'cuz I'm a slow reader with very high recall.

I take the very broadest view in that I only consider something suppressed without clear evidence or contradictions to say that JRRT rejected, in the process of correctly translating the Red Book, of course. But my inclination is to find ways to not really reject very much from The Silmarillion proper and to be content with competing theories (e.g., Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, etc., for which much is possible, but could only have ever really been known by Morgoth, and he ain't talkin')

The Lost Tales actually provide a lot of very interest detail -- in some cases -- although it reflects a very preliminary understanding by JRRT, and his struggle in figuring out how best to present and introduce the material, but much of it was clearly rejected, too.

Thanks.

[lindil]

Weclome to the Silm Forum Man of the Wold!

Yes if you are a slow reader HoME will take you awhile!

But if you read it chronologically you will win Aiwendil's heart!

I will PM you and we can discuss what has transpired so far.

Currently we have not made any of the project work available on this forum largely because it is all still in process.

FOG is a unique project among the many sub-projects of a new Silmarillion in that the majority of it's expansion comes from Lost Tales instead of UT and HoME 10-12.

I am disregarding for the moment the addition of the 'OF tuor and his coming...' section because that is more less being used as a preface.

So that aside most of the additions do not come from later expansion or later variants but from extremely old and at times extremely incompatible material.

Anyway [God willing] the project will be still here when you are ready, and if not we certainly have left enough scattered material that anyone else attempting it would not be doing so from Square One!

Anyway thanks for posting and letting us know we are being attended to.

Sometimes we/I feel a bit like the Northern Dunedain Rangers!

[lindil]

test again is the forum still alive?

[Alkanoonion]

It is working for me from the main page, looks like it is fixed.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Eru]

hello. i read you FAQ thread and might be interested in paticipating in this project. let me know if there is any thing specific that needs to be done. (i work better when i have a set task.)

let me know what you think. i intend to do whatever needs to be done.

-Lenwa

[lindil]

Greetings E! [ sorry calling an Elvish word for God might be a wee bit tricky for me [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]

Welcome to Silm project.

I would first off encourage you [ if you have not already done so to read all of the threads marked with **xyz** as they are essential to the current project.

If/once that has been done PM me and we shall proceed on.

Glad to see project oriented folks, that is exactly what we need.

Again E welcome aboard.

Hi all!

I been thinking of a revised Sil for quite some time but I knew that I didn't have the skill or the time to do such a thing on my own. But then two weeks ago, I discoved the Barrow-Downs and was pleasently surprised to find that people were in the process of revising the Sil. I would like to help out if I can. I've read the Sil at least 4 times, UT 4 times and HoME 2 times (in order), so I do have an understanding and familiarity with the material. I don't know what I can bring to the project, but I would like to help in some capacity. Thanks,

Frank

[Aiwendil]

Greetings to Man-of-the-Wold, Eru, and Frank. We're always overjoyed to see new people interested in helping. As Lindil said, you might want to start off by reading or at least skimming over some of the more important threads in the forum, particularly those marked with asterisks. We are in the midst of finalizing points for what might be called a final rough draft of the Fall of Gondolin. Right now, the most helpful thing everyone can do is simply to offer comments, suggestions, and discussion on the Fall of Gondolin changes.

[Eru]

um, yeah, i was reading through one of the threads (fall of Gondolin pt. 1), and i need a little help with the teminology.

-Lanwe Fea

[lindil]

A couple of options Lanwe Fea,

#1 read the original threads [Fall of Gondolin a Project?, Bye Bye balrogs , and Mechanical monsters] first; these should provide the proper context for the many abbreviations we have begun to take for granted.

#2 if it is a limited # of questions stick them up here and someone will help you with them.

And greetings to Frank Glass -

as Aiwendil suggested go through the **'d threads and them PM Aiwendil or myself and we can get you going.

Salutations to all of you-as you may have guessed I'm a newcomer here [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I'm intrigued by this edition to the forum and I just want all of you to know-I wish to join it too someday...

[lindil]

Welcome tho the Downs and the Silm forum the Last Battle!

Don't worry - the project will be going on for quite some time.
Take your time getting familiar with the material and we will be here.

[Tirinvo]

Yes, and then there's is the fact that you will be reading a WHOLE bunch of 'rough drafts' in this projects. A bit of advice for newcomers, print out and take home(or to any leisure spot you can) and read thoroughly and take many notes/questions. You will find that we get very technical and it is a must to do your homework, though sometimes an opinion is needed, for this is not for the slacker or observer at heart.

***Even though many of us have read Sil/UT/HoME many times, some of us still must go back and reread certain parts over for reference, you should also take heed of this***

[Joy]

Hi Lindil, I would like to join you guys soon. I am getting my collection of HoME up now. I have read the Sil 2x, UT 1x - reading it again, have BoLT1&2, Lays, SoME, and The Lost Road. I have asked for MR and WotJ for Christmas.

As soon as I finish UT, what should I start on? I have read part of BoLT2 - story of Beren and Lùthien only.

PS, I am studying Quenya and Sindarin - hopefully this will help. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[lindil]

We would be delighted to have you joy.

Definetly first on the reading list [ for this particular project] is BoLT 2's Fall of Gondolin and the HoME4's Q30 Gondolin chapter [ the basis for the chapters in 'The Silmarillion'].

After or along with that would go the same general advice we have been giving above.

the ** threads are the essential one's but feel free to go to the source threads [ as per the advice to Lanwe Fea above] if the terminology is confusing.

There is a good project for someone willing;

a guide to abbreviations.

The only problem is we have been less than 100% consistent ourselves.
Still if someone wants to undertake an exploration of the abbreviations used in the **official project** threads and compile them in a new thread we can comment on it and add it to the FAQ section.

It woill probably help us standardize a bit more. Of course maybe it is OK to use MR or HoME 10 interchangeably...


Joy - PM me whenever you are ready to take the full plunge [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

-lindil

[ November 30, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[InklingElf]

hmmm this is very interesting. Is it alright for me to join aswell?

[Eruhen]

Well, well, well! In the week that I've been away from the forum, everyone seems to be jumping on the bandwagon. Of course, that's not a bad thing. Far from it. Everyone (sorry I don't remember who you all are), welcome to the project! We need all the help we can get!

[Gimli the Dwarf]

I would love to join this thead. Could you Pm me the jobs I could do? thanks [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[lindil]

Greetings Inklin Elf and Gimli the Dwarf -
great to see such enthusiasm!

Right now to join I [ and no one else on the team has complained or offered other guidelines] am asking that all new members have read over the threads marked with
**. These are essential as we are in mid-project and new members really need to be able to land running.

If you don't have time to read the **threads** from begining to end then this project is probably not for you.

Once you have done that PM me and we go from there.

I hope I am not sounding too discouraging a note, but each new member does really need to do the vast majority of the work in bring them selves up to speed before they get involved.

Again, welcome!

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

:edited post:

sorry, not quite sure if the post below was directed at me or not... or what exactly it means. (I have, actually, read all of the ** posts by the time I made my way back to this thread, and as I stated before, have read Sil/UT several times, and am at the moment making my way through HOME)

I understand if you guys dont need any more help, but I figured it was no harm in offering, as I did read you were looking for artists, and hadnt seen anyone rise for the job.

Good luck on this project to you, I will be following it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

:I deleted my old post, as I feel its irrelevant:

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Scattergold ]

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: Scattergold ]

[Orald]

*Blinks* I do not believe my eyes, you see I thought lindil wrote, "These are essential as we are in mid-project aqnd new members really need to be able to land running."


Finally you are on your way to getting what you have been dreaming of for over 3 years.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Sorry, I didn't think to check back here. Looks as if once again, I'm in front of a trend. But thanks for the encouragement.

Lindil's set me up nicely; now all I need to do is quit my job. I look at some of those other threads now, too.

But I see where you are going with FOG, and on the surface what you have in BoLT II is ripe for marrying with Tuor's Coming to Gondolin, provided it is fixed up to agree with what is in The Silmarillion. Otherwise, it would seem according to CRT that JRRT never really revisited this again, except for one little piece of Lay.

But it is easier said than done.

[lindil]

Welcome Scattergold, [and nice to see you pop in Durelen!] sorry if we are starting to seem prissy with all of the ever increasing list of requirements, but that really is the nature of unpaid anddermanned and underorganized projects of this nature, especially once you finally start to actually get somewhere!

So just to make it all crystal clear to everyone:

• Anyone is free to come and lurk and observe.
• We will not stop non-members from making occasional comments, especially in this thread. If you really have something to say but know you can not or wish not to be a regular member, speak up. We have had a few good ideas this way in the past .
• If you do wish to join, you really must have done the following before even bothering to speak or post about joining: A) have read the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales with understanding 2 to 3 times and read all of the threads in this forum marked with the ** at the begining and end ot the thread title.

If you do not do this you will risk looking so incompetent to deal with the small things that we will likely not feel inclined to entrust you with membership.

We really do not have time [ at least I don't and no one else has volunteered] to hold anyone's hands through the begining stages of what we have already done.

I know some of it is difficult going and in all honesty that is just the nature of it, it is not going to change [ at least not for more than a moment or 2]. This project makes the HoME footnotes seem like easy reading. Although God willing we will finish FoG someday and start anew on other texts, maybe from the Ainulindale and work on. So that would be a logical place to jump on if interested but not feeling up to FoG [ and believe me I understand that sentiment well!]

I truly do not want to discourage anyone who is ready to join in, but I have less and less time for this project even as I have more and more I want to do with it, so parsing newcomers is going to need to fall to someonelse entirely I think. Members feel free to respond on the private forum general thread for any ideas!]

So hopefully this clears any remaining fog from the project membership process.

[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[the real findorfin]

Is it essential to have read all of HoME before joining?

I would very much like to read through the current work and suggest things (if they appear)? Is this possible?

Thanks

[lindil]

No, R Findorfin it is not. Currently, 2-3 readings each of UT and the Silmarillion are strongly recommended. HoME reading while not required will be important though in varying degrees depending on the text and project involved.

For instance in the new Ainulindale Project Morgoth's Ring is probably the only essential HoME book, any other small bits that might make their way in can and will be posted on the relevant thread, so that everyone will be able to read/discuss/ponder it's implications and [possible inclusion.

For the FoG, HoME2, HoME4 [along with UT and Silm of course] have been the primary texts but varrying other bits have come from almost every other volume, linguistic info from H5, Later developments from 10-12, I am not sure if we used anything from the fragment of the Lay of the fall of Gondolin in H3 but I actually just read a few lines [ 35 and on] that might work nicely in the latter sections.

But again there are a fwe hard, hard core types that usually hunt down all of the tangential tie-in's. New members can more or less figure on being responsible for the main texts.

In some cases needed material is available on the Private forum, which is one reason it is private.

Thanks for the great question RF. I will [ sooner or later [place it in the **FAQ/Intro thread**].

I would very much like to read through the current work and suggest things (if they appear)? Is this possible?

If by that if you are asking if you may join the project, then yes,PM me for further details.

If you are inquiring re: just being a non member [ you don't get to vote or have access to the Private Forum] meaning you can read and comment on the projects here on the public forum, then of course, any one bold enough to venture into the tangled web of Simarillion revision is welcome [and deserves!] to put in their 2 cents.

[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[lindil]

Attention Project members - for the next few months, Aiwendil will be the primary moderator for the forums and primary project leader for ther FoG, with Maedhros taking that role for the Ainulindale.

I will still be posting on the FoG threads, and anything else that specifically demnands my attention, but all enquireies that can not be resolved by a little hard thought or research should be addressed to the afore mentioned until otherwise posted.

For anyone interested in signing up, Aiwendil [ till other wise posted] is the one to contact after the various pre-requisites have been fulfilled.

[lindil]

The FAQ/Intro to the Forum and Project Threadhas been updated [6.0], now with spiffy links [ and one to the very first thread whererin all of this was conceived...]

Anyway if any of you active members are missing now is the time to PM me. Please take note of the new points.

[Petty Dwarf]

As this is my first post let me start off by telling everyone involved how much I respect your efforts in taking on this project.

Naturally, like any intelligent person who delves into Tolkien's work, I began to see the haphazard approach Christopher Tolkien took in editting (more at rewriting) the Silmarillion.

I started a topic at The White Council (where I still post) calledThe Biggest Threat to Your Conception of Middle-Earth. My biggest concern at that time was the Sil's lack of the Translator, whose involvment in LotR can't be denied, especially since JRRT was writing for the part.

I've lurked around here since I found out about the project, and as much as I like what I see I feel like you've glossed over one of JRR's major points. (I know this borders on personal aesthetics but I was just wondering how the project fells about it) I've broken down the Tolkien sub-creation into four levels that have to exist in a new Sil:

1.) The Imaginary Past (where the events of the legendarium took place)
2.) The Legendarium (the imaginary past's sub-creations:
-----A. Elvish literature and folklore
-----B. Mannish literature, folklore, and adaptions from Elvish works)
3.) The Imaginary Present (where the legendarium was discovered)
4.) The Translator's Work (the imaginary present's sub-creations: the legendarium translated, expounded on, and published)

I know you discount the Myths Transformed material (why?), but do you really consider the Sil a work of elves and not a reworking of elvish works by the Dunedain?

Just wondering, and I hope my head doesn't get chopped off my very first post. I'd very much like to give input and insight on the project.

The bottom line is that the estate should do something in the future, and a Silmarillion should be the place to start.

[Aiwendil]

I'd very much like to give input and insight on the project.

Great! It sounds as though you'd have some insightful and helpful things to say.

Warning: the following began as a simple answer to your questions, but took on a life of its own. I'm sorry to answer you with such an abstract and pedantic essay, and I certainly hope I don't scare you off. Anyway, some people may be interested in my musings.

You are very correct, I think, about the presence of a translator and a feel of authenticity being very important to Tolkien's works. Or to put it another way (as you in fact do), his Legendarium is multi-lateral. There is on the first level the "true" history, on the second the early written accounts, on the third the transmission to modernity, and on the fourth the translation in modernity. Of course, the third and the fourth tend to be somewhat conflated, or perhaps glossed over, even by Tolkien - nowhere do we learn how he was to have come by these ancient manuscripts. The point, nonetheless, is well made and well taken.

I agree that in the preparation of any purportedly "authentic" documents, it is essential to bear fully in mind the distinction between 1 and 2 - that is, to remember that the work at hand is not an accurate history, but rather a document from a supposed historical period. This would certainly be the case if someone were to prepare a work intended to be the veritable "Quenta Silmarillion" - as Christopher did; or if someone really wanted to write Bilbo's "Translations from the Elvish".

But I must here say two things. First, the preparation of such a document is not the goal of this project. Second, regardless of that, I don't think I see how we have glossed over the multi-lateralism.

On the first point: this project, as I have understood its purpose from relatively early on, is not the creation of a supposed ancient document. If we were preparing an "authentic" Quenta Silmarillion, we would have to be going about things quite differently. For one thing, we'd have to leave out all the long versions - long versions for the inclusion of which the project was specifically designed (well, it was designed for this among other things). Nor can the goal of the project be the creation of, say, the Atanatarion, or some other collection of the full-length stories, simply because there is at least one full length story that we don't have, and will never have - the story of Earendil. I have said it many times before - the purpose of this project is not to create a work of any literary merit.

What, then, is the purpose? Well, I'd put it this way (and this may sound a bit odd): it is to create an account, accurate in its details and as detailed as possible, of the fictional world-history defined by the the writings of the Numenoreans, which are themselves part of another fictional world-history. The first fictional world history I mentioned, call it F1, is a sub-creation within the sub-creation (F2) of Arda. F2 corresponds with your "layer 1" and F1 with your "layer 2".

In other words, we are making the simplifying assumption that the history told in the Quenta Silmarillion is exactly the "true" history (or to put it another way, we are defining as "true" the Quenta Silmarillion). Starting from there, we are writing an accurate account of that "true" history (which may or may not be the F2/layer 1 true history).

You may ask why it is this history, F1, that we are interested in, rather than the true history of Arda, F2. I think the reason is simple: we have very many documents describing F1 (we need not worry about the fact that that set of documents is internally contradictory). We have relatively few documents describing F2, and even in those that do describe it, there is confusion and conflation between F1 and F2. In other words, when people think about the events in Tolkien's history, they think of those written down in such things as the Silmarillion, the Grey Annals, etc.; they do not think of "real" events that are merely described (imperfectly) by the Silmarillion, Annals, etc.

So the simplifying assumption behind this project as well as behind almost all discussions of the Legendarium is that F1=F2; layer 1 = layer 2. Note that even while making this assumption, we do still recognize that there is a difference; we simply ignore that difference in order to make possible a discussion of the events.

Of course, there are times that, in the context of trying to sort out contradictions among texts describing F2, that we run into texts that deal with F1 and the distinction between F1 and F2. These can be problems. It seems that the best solution we have is to keep pretending F2 is "true" and take it over F1. This is a problem that has come up in the recent Aelfwine/Rumil/Pengolodh discussions, though I think there the problem is quite soluble.

This leads to my second point above: despite this simplifying assumption, I'm not sure how we have glossed over any specific cases of the multi-lateral distinction. If you were going about this, conscious of the distinctions you mentioned, what would you have done differently? We have, in fact, struggled to retain all the references to authorship which we have come across.

As for the Myths Transformed material: if the philosophy behind the workings of this project were to be boiled down to one prime axiom, I think it would be "latest conceptions are followed, wherever they can be incorporated without creative writing". Of course, our principles are much more complex than that (see the principles thread), but that is the basic idea behind all of them. Very early on, there were indeed proposals for the inclusion of Myths Transformed. But in its current incarnation, the project must reject the later cosmology. This is simply because there is no way to incorporate it into the existing writings without doing some very significant creative writing.

Of course, there is a more subtle distinction here than simply round earth vs. flat earth. As I think I said in another post, there are really 3 options: 1. Round earth Silmarillion; 2. Flat earth history; 3. Round earth history but Flat earth Silmarillion. (There is also theoretically a fourth option: Flat earth history and Round earth Silmarillion - but that's, of course, completely psychotic.)

The third version may have been what Tolkien finally settled on - it's hard to say. In that version, F2/layer 1 follows the round earth cosmology while F1/layer 2 is the incorrect flat earth account written by the Numenoreans. But consider: the purpose of the project is to write the history of F1/layer 2, not of the "real" Arda. So for our purposes, option 2 and option 3 become almost identical. In fact the only remaining discrepancies between them appear if we try to include some reference to authorship - as in the case of the Pengolodh/Aelfwine business. Of course even there, as the current solution shows, it is possible to make the writing ambiguous and retain the identity between 2 and 3.

Your last question is whether we really consider the Silmarillion a work of the Elves and not of the Dunedain. The answer would have to be "no". There is no question that the Silmarillion was the work of the Numenoreans/Dunedain/Bilbo, regardless of how one deals with the above issues. I can't think of anything that might have given you the impression that we consider it an Elvish work.

[lindil]

Welcome to the Downs and the TftE forum Petty Dwarf!

I am always heartened to see someone make their fist post in our little forum as it was on this topic I first posted on the downs also [leading ultimately to this very project].

I think we have handicapped your present understanding a bit by not having our current Pengoldh/Aelfwine/Rumil discussion in the public foprum as is our want.

I will look into moving it over here next so you can see that quite a few of your very well organized points are in the process of being addressed.

I must say also that one of Aiwendil's and I 's very fwe disagreements is on the future literary 'fate' of our effort.

I would love to see it as polished and smoothly integrated ala the 77/01 Silmarillion as possible with no visible seams between the UT/Q30/LT material.

This of course will make the source texts from the Lost tales virtually unrecognizable as the names will have been converted, details added and deleted according to the principles and finally in my vision [if we go with it] the Lost Tales language 'updated'. Replacing the archaisms and stylistic inflections so peculiar and common to Lost Tales with the more sparse and formal Silm language or when possible, with the beautiful phrasing that characterises all of the post LotR Silmarillion writing.

I think the attempt is at least worth the making. And though the end product will have gone through 3 very carefully crafted, principled and controlled steps equal if I may say it, to the work CJRT did, hopefully in quality, though of course without any vestige of his authority.
Again welcome to the Forum!

I am sure you will have some feedback for us once IO can get the aforementioned thread moved or copied over.

[Aiwendil]

I would love to see it as polished and smoothly integrated ala the 77/01 Silmarillion as possible with no visible seams between the UT/Q30/LT material.

I just feel it necessary to point out that I too would love this - I just don't think that it's possible within the context of this project as it currently exists. I do think that the current project could constitute the first step in such an endeavor.

[lindil]

Agreed. We do not yet have in place any guidelines for that phase of the work.

[Petty Dwarf]

Of course, lindil, the legendarium (F1) takes precedence being the most time consuming and important. That's why there's little of the Translator in JRRT's original writing. Hopefully TftE won't get bogged down by the weight of it too. From what I can see, and to be doubly cheesy, this project is like fighting the long defeat but there's always hope.

I meant it very broadly when I said "glossed over". Afterall, I can't see everything you've done. Specifically it was in regards to the Translator, only because without him F1 can't exist IMO. I feel like this is one of the reasons people feel hobbit-cheated with the Silm. Without the Translator to drive the point home that Bilbo made the whole thing possible it's almost forgotten. Obviously TftE as a title aknowledges that. I only mentioned it because I didn't see any plans for a Prologue of any type.

Aiwendil, I'm glad I got to see some more of the thought process behind it all. The shorthand of it: I think the two theories are on the same page.

If you want, PM the password this way and I'll be happy to lend some more opinions in line with the TftE aesthetic.

[Mauwurz]

I would like to join in this Silmarillion Project,I have not got the HoME series but I do own the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.
If I am accepted please PM me the password to the other forum.

How can i get on to the privte translation forum?

[lindil]

Welcome to the Downs Rivendell Elf!

Access to the private forum is for members actively working on the project.

To learn more about possibly becoming a member see the ***Intro to the forum and FAQ's*** thread at the top of the list of threads in this forum.

It goes over a list of member pre-requisites and obligatory threads obne needs to have read.
Good luck.