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#1 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Long Island, New York
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Tolkien's handling of suicide in his books has always been fascinating to me. In a way Tolkien condones suicide. It is considered proper for the kings of Numenor to forsake life once they reach a certain point in their life. Tolkien describes the forsaking of that practice by the Numenorian Kings as foolish and even against nature. Aragorn renews this tradition when he nears the end of his natural life span. I have always taken this to mean that Tolkien believed that once a man reaches an age where he is no longer in control of his faculties it is against nature to continue to live. Perhaps this is not an approval of suicide, but a reaction against what Tolkien perceived as modern medicine unnaturally prolonging people’s lives. I could never tell how Tolkien felt about Turin’s suicide, the tone after Turin kills himself is unclear; it is certainly sad, but I can not tell if Tolkien approved or condemned the suicide. That is partially because the Silmarillion is put together by Christopher Tolkien, but for the most part the Silmarillion comes from actual text written by J.R.R. Tolkien. There is also the curious situation of Denethor’s suicide.
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Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. |
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#2 |
Haunting Spirit
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Very interesting question. I will do my best, although I am currently in the middle of the Silmarilion and so don't have as much background...
First of all, it's important to remember that Tolkien himself was a devout Roman Catholic. In fact, he was instrumental in the conversion of C. S. Lewis. So with that information, I am going to operate on the basis that he does not condone it, and try to come up with an explanation there. I think he does have a double standard for elves and men. I don't think he approves of suicide in men (and therefore that takes care of modern humanity), but it is a little different with elves. It seems to me that this difference would be due to their longevity. Elves are immortal basically and therefore do not have the gift of death that Men have (I think Tolkien said something about death being a gift in the Silmarilion...I will find the quote later if I can), so perhaps Tolkien sees the suicide of the immortal or more than mortal (Dunedain) as simply a seizng of a gift that was denied them by Illuvatar.. BUt then that gets weird because Iluvatar didn't give them death, they took it... Oh well. I'm perplexed. I must muse on this further and bust out my copy of The Silmarilion. I hope I made some sense. Namárië, Lúthien
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#3 |
Ghost Eldaran Queen
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A remote mountain in Valinor
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Luthien, I believe you are on the right track. I was wondering about what Thingol said, because of Tolkien's Catholicism. You actually made a lot of sense!
Now I'm going to go look into The Silmarillion & see if I can find it...but I think you are right.
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A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!" |
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#4 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
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I'm not sure that the Numenoreans resigning their lives is exactly suicide. The way that it is phrased it's a "grace" given to them to be able to die when the time comes. I think that it means that there is a sort of inner certainty that the person in question has that it is their time to go, and they can go then before they start to decay or they can go when their bodies can no longer support their life. The choice is up to them. I guess that maybe a sort of suicide, but I don't really look at it that way.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#5 |
Spirit of a Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,012
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As for Elves, I don't have a clue, but with the case of Aragorn, I agree with Kuruharan. It was a special grace that enabled them to know when their life was at its end and choose to pass on, to yeild their spirit back to Ilùvatar, who created them. I have seen cases of several people who in their 80's or 90's have decided that they are ready to die. They tell their family's and have their will read and executed, then they go to their beds and die within the hour. They, by their own will give their spirit permission to leave.
This is not suicide in the common sense of the word. The word suicide come from the Latin sui meaning self and another word, which I have forgotten meaning murder. They do not kill themselves in a violent matter, like a murder, but peacefully decide to let their spirit go.
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God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God? |
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#6 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Australia
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I agree with Joy...if, after many years, a day comes which is devoid of light then passing is natural, not suicide
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But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song. |
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#7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
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I don't think that Aragorn committed suicide. It was more like acknowleding the end of his life. As a Catholic, I think that Tolkien was talking about a "Happy Death", meaning in communion with God, not committing suicide.
Thatm at least, was my interpretation. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile |
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#8 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Long Island, New York
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But the thing is there is a choice. One can choose to live out ones natural lifespan, as did many of the so called foolsih Numenorian kings, or one can just give up on life and die. I'm not saying that I think that it is wrong to just lie down and die if you will become witless and totally dependent on others, I just think it's curious the way Tolkien dealt with it. Perhaps it reveals what Tolkien thought of old age. The Elves would never die naturally so it is not like they are accepting the inevitable. It is not frowned upon for the elves to give up on life. I guess this is because they don't really die in the same sense that men do. They go to the Halls of Mandos to find healing for their spirit. It is difficult to equate elven experiences with those of men, especially modern men.
[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
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Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. |
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#9 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: In maiden meditation, fancy free.
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In some cases with the suicide of elves, I've noticed that it's not very fair how it effects others around them. Like when, oh I can't remember her name now, but that Elf maid who forgot everything, than accidentaly married her brother, and when she found out what she had done she threw herself off a cliff, even though she was pregnent with her brothers child. I understand the whole taking the gift Illuvatar deprived them of, but when it means other innocents are killed when an elf kills themself, that just not right.
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#10 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Long Island, New York
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She wasn't an elf maid she was a mortal woman. She was Nienor daughter of Hurin and Morwen, Turin's sister.
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Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. |
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#11 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: In maiden meditation, fancy free.
Posts: 245
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Oh, alright then never mind, got my facts mixed up, but I still think it wasn't fair.
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Snow white! Snow White! O' Lady Clear! O' Queen Beyond the Western Seas! O' light to us that wander here amid the world of woven trees! |
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#12 | ||||||||||
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: A Broom cupboard in Utumno
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I agree with KuruHaran on this. In Tolkiens works there is a marked difference between forcibly trying to take ones life and the relinquishing of it voluntarily as part of the Gift of Men. There are some interesting quotes in the Akallabeth which illustrate how Tolkien perceives mortality in his sub-creative world.
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So I would argue that Melkor, being the truest to his purpose amongst the Valar, saw his chance, as he tried with the Quendi in the Ages of the Trees and left Angband to go East and corrupt Men in the infancy of their existence Quote:
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It was indeed evident that Morgoth had planted lies into the hearts of the fathers of the fathers of the fathers of mankind before they even met the Avari and that these lies were the beginning of the Shadow and the fear of death that all mankind had ... Quote:
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So as you see, the original 'Fall of Mankind' was the lie, created by Melkor that there was nothing beyond mortal death and that the Eldar did not die and were therefore in some fashion, privileged and to be envied And Sauron in Numenor echoed this lie as he said to Ar-Pharazon the Golden when, in his pride, he felt old age approach .. Quote:
And down the ages this lie seems to be repeated and expanded and sown deeper into the hearts of men, comparable with our own 'Original Sin' in so far, like the men of Tolkiens mythology, the gift of our existence has been spurned and we reap the consequences thereof. Faramir makes another evocative reference to the passing of the truth and the waning of the Men of the West when he says Quote:
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#13 |
Wight
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Vantaa, Finland
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I agree with Kuruharan and Mat Heathertoes: the deaths of the Numenorean kings can't be called suicides. The lived to the ends of their natural lifespans and then died by their own free wills. The later kings of Numenor, on the other hand, tried to live longer than it was natural. Of the first Numenorean king to do so, Tolkien says the following: "And Atanamir lived to a great age, clinging to his life beyond the end of all joy... refusing to depart until he was witless and unmanned...". Remember also that in Numenor "wise men laboured unceasingly to discover if they might the secret of recalling life, or at the least of prolonging of Men's days". This doesn't sound very natural to me.
Of course, same kind of things could be said about modern medicine... andperhaps Tolkien is trying to. I think that Elves who die to depression are very different from despaired Men who commit suicide. Elves go to Mandos for healing and may return to life, but a Man's lifetime in Arda is limited. A Man should use his life for good purposes and not to abandon it without purpose. If an Elf dies to depression... well, it wasn't his own choice to be so depressed and if there was any other way out, I'm sure that no Elf would have to resort to abandoning his body. A Man who commits suicide in desperation is not looking for healing or solution to the situation at hand, but escape from it. Denethor could have, for example, died honorably like Theoden and fulfilled his obligation to his people. |
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#14 | |
Spectre of Decay
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Man kenuva métim' andúne? |
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#15 |
Spirit of a Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,012
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Thank you Squatter. It has been almost 10 years since my Latin class. I have forgotten a lot though the years.
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God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God? |
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#16 |
Spectre of Decay
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I never knew that much to start with, Joy; just the words concerning violence and alcohol. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Man kenuva métim' andúne? |
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#17 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Helcaraxe
Posts: 210
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Squatter - I am confused by your statement:
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Thingol, I was thinking about Maedhros (elf) who took his own life by throwing himself into a fissure. I always assumed he went to the Halls of Mandos to wait for many long ages, but was at some point healed and walked again among the Noldor in Valinor. So, it would seem that there is no "punishment" for elvish suicide, other than a rather lengthy stay in Mandos. I think you've answered your own question in that it is not a "double-standard" between elves and men, but there is just such a great difference in what death means for the two races. Elvish "death" in Arda seems more like a physical death than a spiritual one. And human death is refered to as more of a "release" from the confines of the world - a nice way to put it I think! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Mat_H - thanks for posting all those passages, I never have my books with me, so it's great when someone else looks the stuff up!
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"Pull the blinders from my eyes, let me see these endless skies And drown here where I stand in the beauty of the land." |
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#18 |
Spectre of Decay
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I mean throughout the books. Suicide is always portrayed as such, and never referred to as the relinquishing of life. I believe that there's a definite distinction there.
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Man kenuva métim' andúne? |
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#19 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Helcaraxe
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Thanks Squatter, now I understand what you were saying. At first I thought you meant that there were no "violent suicides" in Tolkien's writings and I would have disagreed due to Maedhros, Turin and Nienor. But, you were stating that the relinquishing of life is distinctly different than suicide. Got it now!
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"Pull the blinders from my eyes, let me see these endless skies And drown here where I stand in the beauty of the land." |
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#20 | |
Haunting Spirit
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Ah! I said a while back that I thought I read somewhere in the Sil that death was actually a gift given to Men by Ilúvatar. It turns out I was not crazy, but right.
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So this would lend itself to the theory that perhaps the "suicide" of elves was less of a negative, extinguishing action, but rather the seizing of a gift naturally denied them. I don't know. Perhpas this helps a little.
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Such lissom limbs no more shall run on the green earth beneath the sun; so fair a maid no more shall be from dawn to dusk, from sun to sea. http://www.thereandbackagain.net |
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#21 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: realm of agonized volcanoes
Posts: 113
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i also never perceived the "laying down" of the lives of numenorean kings as suicide, thingol. it was more like another element in the continuum of grace accorded to the descendants of elros, in that elros having chosen to be joined with the atani and sundered from the quendi, had forfeited eternal life for all his seed, but nevertheless bestowed with the mitigating grace of lengthy years and the privilege of declaring such grace full by commending one's soul to illuvatar. in short, it was sort of not ending life itself, but rather, ending the grace of a longer life, which by ancestral choice should've been short.
the distinction of suicide being less acceptable in elves also escaped me, hmmm...from what i understood, tolkien associated the taking (not commending) of one's life with negative conditions, such as niennor's despair at discovering the truth, maedhros torment from the silmaril or miriel's post-partum despondency after the birth of fiery feanor, as the guys above have pointed out. because of such states occasioning it, suicide as i understand was, for tolkien, something wrong regardless of who commits it, be he elf or no. and i'm more inclined to think that it must be more grevious for men to commit it, because this is an act tantamount to forcing the gift of death to men from illuvatar.
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pity this busy monster,manunkind, not / -progress is a comfortable disease;/ your victim (death and life safely beyond) / plays with the bigness of his littleness ---ee cummings |
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#22 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
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Not sure that this is the exact thread for my thoughts...but here goes anyway.
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An aside: One of the fifty or so 'main' characters, Frannie, makes reference to Tolkien. Her father had a shed in the back yard, and the door to the same was smaller than usual. As a child, and maybe even as a young woman, she always hoped that when she opened the door, instead of finding her father's work room, she would find Bag End, and the tunnels (dry) and oddities that made up any well-to-do hobbit hole. This never happened, but she still liked her father's room just the same. Did I mention that her father smoked a pipe? And that one of her ancestors took the name of Tobias Downs? Anyone else wonder which muse was murmuring in the author's ear? Where was I? Oh, anyway, so in the first part of the book, you, as the reader, realize that a super germ gets out and starts killing every man, woman and child (and dog) that gets near anyone that is infected. It's sometimes bleak reading, as you know that anyone near any character that sneezes or coughs will soon be dead, and that includes the infant in the car, the kids out in the backyard, etc. Mostly the death happens off screen, but you do get to read about some of it, and it's not very uplifting. Also, the persons responsible, instead of trying to stop the pandemic, first want to cover up their involvement, and in doing so, allow the plague to spread to the point where it gets out of hand. They even seed it across the oceans to confuse any researchers - not that any are left after a few weeks to point any fingers. After that, civilization breaks down, the dying take one last swing at the resistant people, and then, well, the real fun begins... So I started thinking about facing such a plague - been here before, as, as a former molecular biologist, you think about plagues and super bugs and biowarfare sometimes. That got to thinking about facing such a death, especially now that I have a little family, and what you would do in such a scenario. Knowing that most probably you weren't resistant - especially when you started with the symptoms - how would you face that day, knowing that death was just around the bend? Is there a way around the despair, or, better put, where would one find hope (assuming no thoughts of afterlife)? And, anyway, that broadened into thinking about despair in general. We all know, even if we never think about, that we are going to die. Big whoop most days. But what if...sniff...cough... you were faced with that 'day' today? Hurin showed great courage when he and his men provided a rearguard so that Turgon could escape. Surely that day Hurin thought he was going to die. But what made him stay, when he could just as easily fled with Turgon, having his men hold the pass until he got away? Maybe if he had gotten away, his and his family's lives would not have been so sad. Regardless, he chose to stay and fight, and yet did not die, but in choosing to stay, was that not a form of suicide? And yet, even making this decision, was he not being filled more with hope (that some good would come from his death) than with despair (that all was lost)? Not that I'm advocating anything, but when you are faced with that kind of a decision, how do you know when to stay and fight, or when to run, and how do you maintain hope and fight back despair? And how can we judge those that give into despair, as, in my example, Hurin chooses death because of hope, though we may never have known it? Hope that this makes sense to someone.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#23 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
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I see a difference between suicide and self-sacrifice in Western culture. Suicide is something selfish, considered immoral by the main western religion (Christianity), and is something for which people can be forcibly locked up if they fail (a process known as a "committal").
Self-sacrifice is done for a purpose, with nobler intentions in mind- usually to save the lives of others. Addendum: I read The Stand, as well, and the book never made much sense to me: here are the plights and trials of all of these people in what is supposed to be a great struggle between good and evil, and how is it resolved? Trashcan Man, in a blatant and silly deus ex machina, setting off the nuke. Not only that, but his actions also render the entire plot pointless; no matter what the heroes would have been doing or not doing, he would have set off that explosion anyway. Very disappointing plot.
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Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. |
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#24 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Posts: 2,466
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Plus I'd be feeding the pigeons too. Quote:
![]() That said, I'm still going to read it again.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#25 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Barad-Dur
Posts: 196
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Didn't Turin bump himself off ?
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#26 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
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Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. Last edited by Andsigil; 01-14-2009 at 04:44 AM. |
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#27 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norway
Posts: 65
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#28 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Welcome to the Downs, Vaine.
Another example of 'suicide' for the greater good and for hope. Turin made a mess of everything he touched and everyone with whom he formed a relationship and so, to him perhaps, exiting the stage would further the cause against Morgoth and cut short the mayhem that the dark vala hoped to continue via the CoH. Níniel/Niënor may have felt the same.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#29 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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And to be fair, Turin and his sister might well
have been considered to have been driven clinically (at least temporarily) insane.
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' |
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#30 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
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Not to make this thread too schizophrenic, but I stumbled upon this:
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#31 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Is laughing oneself to death considered suicide?
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#32 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Stephen King makes Terry Brooks look
like Frank Herbert .
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' Last edited by Tuor in Gondolin; 01-19-2009 at 08:00 AM. |
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#33 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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Every time I see this thread title I think of that iconic song, not the cover by Manic Street Preachers or Marilyn Manson, but the theme song from MASH: the movie and the TV show.
Those were definitely not Tolkien moments, though, so this post must be just another schizophrenic comment which muddies al's query about hope and despair.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#34 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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It is however the case that 'suicide' for an Elf means something rather different than for a human, as the Elf's life within Arda can never be ended. The fea may be houseless for a time, and confined to Mandos, whether the hroa is physically destroyed or merely 'dies of grief:' but these are 'seeming deaths,' because the Elf never leaves the World. In fact, since Elves can 'die of grief,' it would seem that 'suicide' by violence isn't even necessary for them; they're capable of 'suicide' by will.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#35 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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This might just be me, but the Kings letting go of their lives always seemed to me to be like the chronically ill person who instead of clinging to live by the use of machines and stuff lets themselves die. As somebody who is very sickly (having had meningitis, tubes in her ears due to severe ear infections that cause her ear drums to burst several times and lose of hearing, chronic tonsilitis, born premature, etc.) the distinction is very clear to me that once a person passes a certain point it stops being living and becomes merely existing. I myself have decided that as soon as I am old enough I will have a living will telling everybody to not put me on any machine. Perhaps this seems like suicide to some, but to me it is putting my fate in God’s hands and excepting that I will go when it is my time. While I hesitate to stick words in anybody’s mouth, this may possibly be along the same lines that Tolkien (and by extension the Númenorean Kings) was thinking.
Um, sorry if this isn’t very clear or anything. ![]()
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#36 |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Actually, you've made your point perfectly clear, and I find your analogy quite convincing. So keep on posting, and welcome in the Afterlife!
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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#37 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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![]() My father, in his last days of battling advanced cancer, decided to 'let go.' He had had enough, and while his mind was still able, he had his feeding tube removed along with any source of hydration. At the time, though as a biologist I knew better, I hoped that maybe, just maybe he was feeling better, but he wasn't. I explained to my siblings that the countdown clock had started and we would only a few days left together. He made it about five days- a couple of them conscious - and then that was it. Now we wished that he had tried some of the experimental treatments that he was offered, but at the time he had found inconvenient. Anyway, it all reminds me of the Kings. Quote:
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#38 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Sorry to hear about your Father. In the last couple years our family has been in similar situation with both my Mom’s aunt and my Step-Dad’s uncle. My great-aunt actually had been in remission, but it came back and this time she wasn’t strong enough for chemotherapy. Her life is actually the biggest inspiration for both my view on my life and the analogy above. At the end of her life she said it was time for her to go to the Lord and that it was her time. Of course this view has gotten me in trouble several times because my family can’t understand it. Much of the same bitterness Arwen has. Which I can understand and at the same time I can’t.
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Busy, Busy, Busy...hoping for more free time soon. |
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#39 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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I miss my father at times, of course, but I try to look forward, as I am the father to my kids. When we speak about such things, I never hide that we all will die - with four kids, I'm constantly being plied with questions, and so it comes up. I've even been asked the second question, which is "why do we *have* to die?"
My answer's been that we need to move on, that we need to make room physically and emotionally for our children to grow. I guess that what I'm trying to say that I never truly will be a parent until I'm no longer anyone's child (or something). This 'letting go' is, to me, consistent with what Tolkien was expressing.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#40 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I strongly believe that death is not the end but the beginning of something new. Which is probably one of the reason’s I enjoy Tolkien’s books so much - Death is not portrayed as the horrible thing that it is viewed as in the modern world but rather a natural part of life and a gift from Eru.
I suppose as a teenager who almost died as a child I can’t help but view it as something to not be feared. Once you’ve faced something once it becomes a lot less scary because you know you can handle it. A rather morbid view from a kid, but I’d rather spend my life living rather than spend it avoiding death. Also I’ve held pets while they’re dying - an inevitable when you have as many as we do - and when they’re just about to die you can tell they’re at peace. I’ve heard the same thing from many people who work in hospices. I miss everybody in my life who’s died but at the same time I’m kinda happy for them. They’re in a better place which is all I want - for them to be happy and to have the same happen to me when it’s my time.
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Busy, Busy, Busy...hoping for more free time soon. |
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