Scarburg Meadhall Discussion Thread

[littlemanpoet]

A few points about this harsh winter.

It's the Fourth Age, the age of humans. No dark lord is to blame for it.

There is no human caused reason for a harsh winter, the technology is not available.

It can only come about by natural causes.

Historically, harsh winters were caused by volcanic explosions. Krakatoa comes to mind; so, to my mind, and would have to be our template. If so, then the winter would not be limited to winter months, but would, depending upon the size of the volcanic eruption, last well into spring, maybe have started the previous summer, and could within reason last longer than a year.

Thus, starvation would be the killer, and frostbite might or might not be an issue. All that would be needed is for temperatures to remain below that necessary for crops to grow.

This means that the sun would be dimmed and ash would have filled the sky for long periods, and would rain down on everything.

If we want a truly harsh winter, this seems like the only way to have it happen. Otherwise, all we could really, reasonably conjecture would be a tough winter that would not entail frostbite, starvation, or anything severe.

The only alternative to this would be a mini-ice age, which lasts centuries; I don't think we want to go there.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Who shall be Facilitator(s)?

I'd say it should be you lmp.

I'd be both ready and willing to take a rear-seat once again as my work seems to be a bit erratic or unpredictable aka. I might have shorter and also longer periods when I'm unable to contribute not to talk of taking care of things. That was one of the reasons I wished to write lord Athanar off from the story leaving myself only Stigend and (half of) Cnebba.

I might take something like a co-facilitator's role though, at least in the beginning as I kind of feel it to be my duty to help the new Hall getting started as smoothly as possible. Also, if you writers wish / agree on it, I might think of starting to develop those local lords and their stories, possibly then intertwining them with the future of the Mead Hall.

[Nogrod]

Agreed on not wishing to have a mini ice-age... let's keep this within some boundaries.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Historically, harsh winters were caused by volcanic explosions. Krakatoa comes to mind; so, to my mind, and would have to be our template. If so, then the winter would not be limited to winter months, but would, depending upon the size of the volcanic eruption, last well into spring, maybe have started the previous summer, and could within reason last longer than a year.

Thus, starvation would be the killer, and frostbite might or might not be an issue. All that would be needed is for temperatures to remain below that necessary for crops to grow.

I'm fine with a volcanic eruption somewhere, but I do think we might get away from the cause of the hardship with even less dramatic events.

Like let's say the spring (one year before we start the writing) was just very late. This kind of things happen every now and then. And when people finally got into sowing there was a sudden "back-winter" like we call it here in Finland killing all the crops. So they'd have very thin supplies for the next winter (maybe they managed to grow little something during the late summer) - which would then turn out to be a lot more severe winters are normally. Also those things just happen to happen every now and then. I remember in late 80's there was a winter in Finland when the temperature stayed below -30C for over two months (-22F).

So the unhappy combination of frostbited crops in the summer and severe winter would produce enough hardship - people who are not well nourished tend to be weaker against extreme cold as well.

And they would have fex. needed to have made a dramatic decision whether to eat their (already very low supplies of) seed grain during the winter to survive...

[Galadriel55]

I agree that we don't even need a volcanic eruption, just a chain of unfortunate events. A late spring frost that killed half the crops (is that the "back-winter"? We call it "freezeover" in Russian ). A hailstorm just before harvest that brought down the other half. The winter started early - the ground froze deep before the snow fell, (which would reflect on the success of next spring's crops), and any late crops were lost. Then, a couple/few weeks later, there was a series of large snowstorms that effectively buried the residents of the Mead Hall and isolated them from the rest of the world, as the roads became unpassable (such events happen here almost every winter - we have freezing temperatures way before snow, and then all of a sudden the snow banks become quite high in a matter of a week). Perhaps we could talk about men trying to brave the roads to bring food from elsewhere, but no wagons could be brought in the snow (dogsleds not invented in Rohan yet?), so the results were minimal. Firewood could also be an issue; I don't remember the exact layout of the land around the Hall, but wasn't the wood bit farther away than is convenient? Also, the local lords would be heavily involved; from what I gather, any grain that the Hall has would have been collected as taxes from the lords, right? The hall itself doesn't do farming. The lords' people also suffered, and the lords could be blaming the Eorl for stealing their food and not helping [enough] during a time when his help was needed.

[piosenniel]

If you all are wishing for me to do a quick-link type of post on the new RPG Discussion thread (like this one in Scarburg Mead Hall Discussion thread) - please do make sure all your character edits go into your original character bio posts - links for the Scarburg players/characters are found HERE.

Any new character bios should be placed on the new, So Far Unnamed RPG Discussion Thread - HERE

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I also think you let yourself overreact to the words "Fell winter", Lmp We are talking about awful winter in local parts of Rohan, or at most in the whole Rohan and, say, bits of Gondor. Really awful winter, but that happens and used to happen in our history just by very unfortunate combination of weather effects. Besides I daresay volcanic eruptions would be much more uncanonical than anything else we might conjure.

What Nog and especially G55 said was exactly what I was imagining (although Rohan I daresay can't be compared to Finland, but evil winters can come also elsewhere. I'd compare Rohan perhaps to Ukraine, lot of it actually is similar in terms of climate, vegetation, and surrounding biotopes, with perhaps the difference that Rohan is even more land-locked, which makes the climate less mild. Imagine, you get mostly eastern winds from the desert-ish lands beyond Anduin, and they get stopped by Misty Mountains, and if you get a dry summer and, by unfortunate accident, a very early dry frost, you're in for a bad start. Anyway, point being, a bad winter in such area is imaginable, and let us bear in mind we don't probably have amazingly extensive farming).

I'd actually be for G55s account being used as the real explanation, as that sums up a nice chain of events that might have caused the main problem: bad harvest, early frosts, some snowstorms for isolation, heŗe we go.

[Nogrod]

Anything you want to know about different kinds of winters and phenomena they might bring forward, just ask a Russian or a Finn...

What g55 said actuallly got me into thinking. Let's say the heavens give 1½ to 2 meters of snow. So without engine-powered modern snowplows it would be basically impossible to get anywhere, well at least without skis or snowshoes.

If the woods were something like less than a mile away it might be possible - with a couple of days of hard labor - to shovel a path and get fresh wood (which actually is pretty bad for burning: normally you'd have to dry the wood after cutting it for a year or two before using it, but the supplies of dry wood would most certainly run short).

But to shovel a riding path farther away in freezing cold and under-nourished... probably not: especially after the snow packs tightly into a snowdrift.

[piosenniel]

So, just for my sense of direction, is this the Player/Character List we're looking at for now:

Players with their probable characters for this RPG - with XX's designating characters who won't be played from the Meadhall

Firefoot –
Scyld (aka Nydfara)
Léofric
----------
Folwren -
Saeryn - Eodwine’s wife
Eoghan and Ruari - Saeryn and Eodwine's twins
Thornden
Javan
----------
Galadriel55 –
Ledwyn and her son Theolain (Theolain – most likely going to perish)
(?)NPC or (?)
----------
Legate of Amon Lanc –
Hilderinc
NPC Áforglaed+wife
----------
littlemanpoet –
Eodwine (First Eorl of the Meadhall)
Rowenna (Wenna)

Harreld Smith - possibly an NPC
Garreth Smith - possibly and NPC

XX Master Falco Boffin - has gone back to the Shire
XX Laerdil (Elf) - won't be around. He's probably over the sea by now.
----------
Nogrod –
Stigend – will be occasionally mentioned/brought in by another character
Cnebba - with Thinlómien
NPC one of Athanar’s soldiers (?) or (?)

XX Athanar – off on an away adventure with Durelin’s ‘Coenred (Coen)’
----------
Thinlómien --
Wilheard - (now with added trauma; and probably also completed soldier training - he was only 17 and now he's going to be 20 or 22)
Modtryth - possibly as a secondary character
Cnebba - with Nogrod

XX Wulfric – will not be played in this game

-------------------------------------------------
For the new players who have joined in the discussion on this thread --

Use this short Character Bio form, please…

Inziladun – place your character bio(s) on the new RPG Discussion thread when they’re done

Mithalwen – place your character bio(s) on the new RPG Discussion thread when they’re done

Snowdog – place your character bio(s) on the new RPG Discussion thread when they’re done

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Anything you want to know about different kinds of winters and phenomena they might bring forward, just ask a Russian or a Finn...

What g55 said actuallly got me into thinking. Let's say the heavens give 1½ to 2 meters of snow. So without engine-powered modern snowplows it would be basically impossible to get anywhere, well at least without skis or snowshoes.

If the woods were something like less than a mile away it might be possible - with a couple of days of hard labor - to shovel a path and get fresh wood (which actually is pretty bad for burning: normally you'd have to dry the wood after cutting it for a year or two before using it, but the supplies of dry wood would most certainly run short).

But to shovel a riding path farther away in freezing cold and under-nourished... probably not: especially after the snow packs tightly into a snowdrift.

Yes, basically I think what we are looking for is snowdrifts isolating the local area for a while, and once you can't use carriages and horses to transport the necessary supplies (which is fairly easy to happen), then you are in a bad enough condition.

And Pio, yes, I think that's more or less what we are looking at right now. I am not sure if somebody had mentioned some previous players still being possibly interested in showing up?

[Nogrod]

Thanks Pio, I think that looks something like it should, with some questionmarks maybe added at this point.

Another thing then is that we have some quite central / visible figures who were either written by someone in our last installment (like Kath's characters) or who were co-written by others (like Garstan and his kids). We should come up with what to do with them (unless the original writers turn up, that is) aka. which ones are going to die or disappear and which will be continued to be written by others.

Anyone doing a kind of update-reading these days (like Legate told he had been doing) might do well to pick up the names of other minor characters we have invented there as it is nicer to use some already defined (or at least named) characters as possible NPC's than go and invent new people every time you need one.

I was thinking about people like this old Raban who was to teach Javan how to make a chain mail as a punishment, or some named soldiers from both Eodwine's and Athanar's troops etc.

[piosenniel]

If any former Meadhall players express interest, I'll be sure to put them on the list...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I updated my bio for Hilderinc, so now I can start focusing on all the other things that need adressing. Well, after I get some sleep, that is

[littlemanpoet]

I'll adjust my thinking to simply a bad winter in Rohan (Tolkien said that Rohan is about the same latitude and climate as France, I believe).

I'll facilitate.

With Ginna either gone or a NPC, I will probably let the two blacksmiths pretty much be passive, slipping toward NPC. I think I'd like to start by concentrating my energies with Eodwine and Rowenna. That's enough. Falco is back in the Shire.

If anything is needed from me, let me know.

[piosenniel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'd say it should be you lmp.

I'd be both ready and willing to take a rear-seat once again as my work seems to be a bit erratic or unpredictable aka. I might have shorter and also longer periods when I'm unable to contribute not to talk of taking care of things. That was one of the reasons I wished to write lord Athanar off from the story leaving myself only Stigend and (half of) Cnebba.

I might take something like a co-facilitator's role though, at least in the beginning as I kind of feel it to be my duty to help the new Hall getting started as smoothly as possible. Also, if you writers wish / agree on it, I might think of starting to develop those local lords and their stories, possibly then intertwining them with the future of the Mead Hall.

If you don't mind, I'm listing you as lmp's able assistant - that way, if I can't get hold of lmp for something, I can bounce it off of you. Does that sound alright?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by piosenniel

If you don't mind, I'm listing you as lmp's able assistant - that way, if I can't get hold of lmp for something, I can bounce it off of you. Does that sound alright?

I would like that.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by piosenniel

If you don't mind, I'm listing you as lmp's able assistant - that way, if I can't get hold of lmp for something, I can bounce it off of you. Does that sound alright?

That sounds good.

[Firefoot]

pio - I do intend to keep writing Leof so he can stay linked on the character list.

Lommy - I wonder if in the absence of his brother a more grown up Wilheard might start making friends with Leof? They are the same age at any rate, even if they differ quite significantly in temperament. Something top think about anyway...

-------------------------------------------------

Leof onboard!!!! ~ pio

[Folwren]

I just read Saeryn's character bio. She is a twin. Does anyone know what became of her brother?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I just read Saeryn's character bio. She is a twin. Does anyone know what became of her brother?

Degas! No clue what he's up to at this point; I'd have to search that up. If he's still around, he could be gone to visit Gondor (he normally lives there - aside from the Mead Hall - right?) And that gives Saeryn a biological predisposition for fraternal twins (which doesn't have to stop them from being very similar in appearance if so desired).

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If the woods were something like less than a mile away it might be possible - with a couple of days of hard labor - to shovel a path and get fresh wood (which actually is pretty bad for burning: normally you'd have to dry the wood after cutting it for a year or two before using it, but the supplies of dry wood would most certainly run short).

Well, a healthy forest always has its supply of dry deadwood, but finding it between the still green stuff and the already rotten stuff and dragging it home is a different matter. Also, this wood tends to be on the smaller stick size, so it wouldn't feed the fires for long.


I apologize for the lack of posts on the game thread - my mother was working nights and I had to take care of the little guy in the house. Now she has a break, though, so the first post should be up soon.

[piosenniel]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I just read Saeryn's character bio. She is a twin. Does anyone know what became of her brother?

Here's Fea's post to you on the discussion thread: HERE

Here's her last post on the game thread: HERE - at least as far as I could find.....

Looks like you could write him in whatever way you need to......

[Snowdog]

I have one simple question... What year exactly will we be re-starting this?

[littlemanpoet]

I'm not sure I have this right, but I know this started in Fourth Age 14, a year passed, and now five years later, it would be Fourth Age 20. Or did more time pass than I recall?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I'm not sure I have this right, but I know this started in Fourth Age 14, a year passed, and now five years later, it would be Fourth Age 20. Or did more time pass than I recall?

When Eodwine fell ill, it was autumn, from what I recall. That was probably the fall of FA14 (or already FA15? I'm hazy on early SMH history). It was still winter when we stopped writing. Since Saeryn is pregnant, I assume it's the winter of the same year (). The bad winter was in year 19, and the year we're jumping in is then 20 (but I forget when the year "turns" - isn't it March? Even if it's in early spring, though, the winter was long and we would probably be starting in early FA20). I believe that Eodwine & co arrived in the spring of the same year as Eodwine fell ill, that there were no years in between. So your calculations seem to be correct.

[Snowdog]

So it will be Spring of 4th Age year 20, after a harsh winter. Got it.

[Folwren]

Thanks, Pio, for your help.

I will try to get my bios updated before this weekend, and before I leave. I hope we can start writing the actual story soon. I was glad to see Firefoot's post on the old game thread!

How do we begin the new game thread? Do we need to plan who's posting first? What else do we have to sort out before we can begin?

[Folwren]

Alrighty, I edited Javan's, Thornden's, and Saeryn's bios. Javan and Thornden I am happy with. Saeryn, I'm not so sure about. I reserve the right to alter it if necessary. I may have made Saeryn a bit too steady. We'll see.

[piosenniel]

I need to put whatever is your first post for the game on the game thread - so, whoever is going to write the first post, just post it on the new RPG discussion thread thread HERE.

And by the way - it would be great if you came up with a NAME for the game. So far, it's just being called the So Far Unnamed RPG.

[littlemanpoet]

I'll take a stab at a name for the new thread, and if there is a hue and cry against it, I suppose Pio can change it.

Scarburg Meadhall: Hard Winters

Who says there has to be only one hard winter? And we could change up what kind of 'hard', too. It could be hard ground because of drought, hard because orcs or bandits raid it, hard emotionally, or hard weather.

I'm happy to write the first post, but I think we need to wait a little while for others (and me) to write their seque posts on the old thread.

[Folwren]

Knowing us, it'll take another 10 years before we get to the next winter season. What if it was

Scarburg Meadhall: After the Hard Winter

[piosenniel]

Folwren - are you going to write a brief bio for Saeryn and Eodwine's twins?

[Folwren]

I need to talk to Elempi first.

[Folwren]

NAME: Eoghan and Ruari

AGE/GENDER/RACE/WHERE FROM: Eoghan is a boy, and Ruari is a girl. They're about 5 years old. They were born at Scarburg, the son and daughter of Eodwine and Saeryn.

APPEARANCE: Being twins, Eoghan and Ruari are both somewhat small for their age. Eoghan has blond hair, as his father, but his eyes are hazel, like Saeryn's. Ruari was born with fiery red hair, and her eyes are green.

BITS OF CHARACTER/HISTORY YOU FEEL MIGHT BE HELPFUL IN DEFINING THE CHARACTER: Ruari was born first, and though an hour's difference in age wouldn't seem to account for much, it is clear she is the oldest. She takes the lead in the twins' activities, and Eoghan follows meekly behind doing almost everything she encourages him to do. Eoghan is quiet and passive and relatively well behaved when left to his own devices. Ruari is curious and active and prone to trouble. They are both intelligent and agile and capable children.

---------------------------

Folwren - I've placed this with your bio on Saeryn and linked it to the new RPG's PLAYER/CHARACTER list ~*~ Pio

[littlemanpoet]

Um .... could we change that to Scarburg Meadhall: the Hard Years? The ideas are already cracking in my brain for this. :P

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Whoa! Great activity here. For the record, Hard Winters sounds brilliant to me as a name, just what LMP said - it can signify anything we can come up with also for the time to come, and I think it nicely goes with the idea we had with making the RPG a bit more "dramatic"...

Anyway, I am currently on short vacation (and Lommy too) for about a week, so I am not sure if I will manage to write anything right now (I want to write a summary thing for Hilderinc during those years), but there shouldn't be that much. So just as soon as I have a little bit of time, I can write it in a very short time, and also put up updated bio for Áforglaed and my new character, aka his new-found wife (or wife-to-be, as I am beginning to think, to allow for a bit of dynamic).


EDIT: crossposted with LMP regarding the thread name - honestly, I think "Hard Winters" has a bit more specific and epic sound to it (after all, the term "years" and "winters" can be used synonymously to a certain extent), but whichever everyone thinks sounds better.

P.S. And Folwren, I wanted to say, I really like the concept of the twins, looking forward to them being around...

[littlemanpoet]

I'm fine with the idea from "the voice that gainsayeth" - let's hear what people like better. - the hard winters or the hard years?

[Firefoot]

I also like the sound of "Hard Winters" - regardless of how accurate it ends up being timeline-wise.

[piosenniel]

I know I'm not playing in this RPG, but I like the ring of "Hard Winters" - without the modifier of Scarburg Meadhall attached to it.

Makes it seem more of a stand-along game, and somehow it has the feeling of deeper dramas - not only of the weatherish sort but of the personal....

Just my dramatic 2-cents worth......

[Folwren]

I just did a little research to see what needs to be added to our timeline.

It looks like Eodwine returned to Scarburg at the end of the December/early January.

Saeryn will have her delivery in May.

Nogrod, when do you think Athanar will leave the hall?

What other events need to go on the timeline? We could note Scyld's departure, just to have it there for future reference, if need be.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by piosenniel

I know I'm not playing in this RPG, but I like the ring of "Hard Winters" - without the modifier of Scarburg Meadhall attached to it.

Makes it seem more of a stand-along game, and somehow it has the feeling of deeper dramas - not only of the weatherish sort but of the personal....

Just my dramatic 2-cents worth......

I like the name as well for these same reasons.

I'm working on a character profile now. Hope to post it next week.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Folwren

It looks like Eodwine returned to Scarburg at the end of the December/early January.

Saeryn will have her delivery in May.

Saeryn gave birth in May, FA 16. Having just scanned about 25 pages of rpg last night, of that I am sure. :P

I kinda like "Hard Winters" too. Plain and simple. And evocative.