Riddles in the Downs

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The choice is mine:
The victor who failed, - ???
The line that failed, - Line of Isildur
Or the law that failed. - Aldarion's law, possibly
Which?

Those are the literal meanings of the lines, yes.

hS

[Urwen]

Then the victor line is literal too, and so the 'victor' is Romendacil/Hyarmendacil

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Then the victor line is literal too, and so the 'victor' is Romendacil/Hyarmendacil

Nope, not a -dacil.

hS

[Urwen]

I also considered Boromir, but he doesn't fit, not really.

But now I am intrigued...

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I also considered Boromir, but he doesn't fit, not really.

No, he doesn't, but the line is indeed literal.

hS

[Galadriel55]

If you are right about the line ans the law, Urwen, I wonder if this has anything to do with Arvedui's claim to the throne of Gondor via his wife. I am not sure who the victor would be in this scenario though.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If you are right about the line ans the law, Urwen, I wonder if this has anything to do with Arvedui's claim to the throne of Gondor via his wife. I am not sure who the victor would be in this scenario though.

This is good thinking.

hS

[Urwen]

I see it now. Pelendur is the answer. Explanation...

The choice is mine: - Pelendur's
The victor who failed, - Earnil
The line that failed, - Arvedui's claim
Or the law that failed. - Firiel's claim
Which? - And he chose the victor.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I see it now. Pelendur is the answer. Explanation...

The choice is mine: - Pelendur's
The victor who failed, - Earnil
The line that failed, - Arvedui's claim
Or the law that failed. - Firiel's claim
Which? - And he chose the victor.

Correct! It's interesting that Tolkien never quite positions Firiel as a candidate for the throne - he uses her claim under Numenorean law as support for Arvedui's candidacy. Arvedui seems to be trying to claim the throne of Gondor jure uxoris ("by right of the wife"), which isn't something that ever happened elsewhere in Middle-earth. The closest precedent would be Pharazon, but he is specifically held to have usurped the Sceptre.

The second closest precedent is actually the reverse: Lalia the Great was head of the Took family for 22 years by something close to right of her husband, at least after his death. Somehow I don't think the Gondorians were using Shire-Hobbit inheritance rules though!

Anyway, I prefer to believe that Firiel was a candidate in her own right, and that the Gondorians suppressed mention of her afterwards. Sounds plausible.

Over to you!

hS

[Urwen]

How about something simple again?

My marriage wasn't pleasant
But I'll let that slide
For my son and granddaughter
Had the law on their side

This one is inspired by Huey's, kind of.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

How about something simple again?

My marriage wasn't pleasant
But I'll let that slide
For my son and granddaughter
Had the law on their side

This one is inspired by Huey's, kind of.

It took me a few runs at it, but is this Inzilbeth? She was married unwillingly to Ar-Gimilzor, despite being of the Faithful; but through her, Tar-Palantir and Tar-Miriel attempted to restore the faith of Numenor, despite both being challenged by weaker claimants to the sceptre.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It took me a few runs at it, but is this Inzilbeth? She was married unwillingly to Ar-Gimilzor, despite being of the Faithful; but through her, Tar-Palantir and Tar-Miriel attempted to restore the faith of Numenor, despite both being challenged by weaker claimants to the sceptre.

hS

Yes.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, August has been a royal pain, but I'm back with this. I really wanted to do one around Dante's Inferno, just listing someone who would be in each Circle, but that... turns out to be really hard, so this riddle is no relation to that one.

A flower and a colour grown, roasted, or tanned,
A bloom and a plant we can use for ourselves,
A blossom and one who toils hard on the land,
A princess and family with grace of the elves.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I've been giving this a ponder but can't say I've had much luck, though I feel like the riddle is already brilliant with the structure or the four pairs. What I can't figure out is if they are different things or all one and the same. There also seems to be a botanical theme in the descriptions which vaguely puts me in mind of hobbit names. The most specific guess I can offer is ROSE for the first line - both a flower and a colour.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I've been giving this a ponder but can't say I've had much luck, though I feel like the riddle is already brilliant with the structure or the four pairs. What I can't figure out is if they are different things or all one and the same. There also seems to be a botanical theme in the descriptions which vaguely puts me in mind of hobbit names. The most specific guess I can offer is ROSE for the first line - both a flower and a colour.

Hobbit names is a good line of thinking, but the first line is not Rose. Hmm... I will also say that the four pairs are four pairs, not multiple clues for the same words.

hS

[Pitchwife]

I'm guessing it's the names of four female hobbits, and the botanical or 'princess' part is the first name and the rest the last name, right?


Verse 2 could be Rose Cotton, a bloom and a plant we use to clothe ourselves.
one who toils hard on the land could be Gardner, or possibly Burrows?
family with grace of the elves could be Gamgee or Gardner again (Galadriel's gift)


Is verse 1 Gilly Brownlock? Gillyflower + roasting or tanning tend to produce brown colours.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I'm guessing it's the names of four female hobbits, and the botanical or 'princess' part is the first name and the rest the last name, right?

Correct in all respects.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Verse 2 could be Rose Cotton, a bloom and a plant we use to clothe ourselves.

Line 2 is Rose Cotton.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

one who toils hard on the land could be Gardner, or possibly Burrows?

Line 3 is a Gardner.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

family with grace of the elves could be Gamgee or Gardner again (Galadriel's gift)

Is verse 1 Gilly Brownlock? Gillyflower + roasting or tanning tend to produce brown colours.

None of these are correct, but you're right about what colour those things lead to.

hS

[Pitchwife]

So line 3 could be any of Elanor, Rose, Daisy or Primrose. But which?


Family with grace of the elves could be Baggins, as both Frodo and Bilbo were elf-friends, but I can't think of any who might be considered a princess.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

So line 3 could be any of Elanor, Rose, Daisy or Primrose. But which?

It is indeed one of those.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Family with grace of the elves could be Baggins, as both Frodo and Bilbo were elf-friends, but I can't think of any who might be considered a princess.

"Of the Elves" is mostly for the rhyme; 'family' is probably more relevant. You are looking for the meaning of the name.

hS

[Urwen]

Line 1 could be Lily Brown.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It is indeed one of those.

Ooooh it's Elanor, right? Blossom of Dwimordene

Originally Posted by Urwen

Line 1 could be Lily Brown.

I was going to say you must be right, but who is Lily Brown?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Line 1 could be Lily Brown.

Indeed it is!

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Ooooh it's Elanor, right? Blossom of Dwimordene

And indeed she is.

A flower and a colour grown, roasted, or tanned, - Lily Brown
A bloom and a plant we can use for ourselves, - Rose Cotton
A blossom and one who toils hard on the land, - Elanor Gardner
A princess and family with grace of the elves. - ????????

Probably the hardest just from the clue, but if you can figure out why those three then the fourth should be pretty simple.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I was going to say you must be right, but who is Lily Brown?

Well, that's the question, innit?

hS

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Well, that's the question, innit?

Duh. Found her. And since 1 to 3 are all related to Sam, 4 must be Fíriel Fairbairn.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Duh. Found her. And since 1 to 3 are all related to Sam, 4 must be Fíriel Fairbairn.

Spot on! As best I can tell, this is the longest matrilineal chain in the Legendarium, matched only by Earwen > Galadriel > Celebrian > Arwen (whose daughters are unnamed).

The right to make the next riddle goes to Pitch, if you're up for it.

hS

[Pitchwife]

That was a nice one! Thank you, I'll try to think of something.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Ooooh it's Elanor, right? Blossom of Dwimordene

*facepalm*

Nice work, Pitch! And good one, Urwen, for getting Lily Brown! That was an excellent riddle - I liked the way the structure interplays with the meaning of it, and it's a neat theme.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And good one, Urwen, for getting Lily Brown!

Indeed! I wouldn't have lit upon the 'princess' if not for looking up Lily Brown in the family trees.

I'm a bit rusty at this game, so bear with me if this is too easy.

Strong I am, though slim and light,
Soft I am, although I bite,
I'll let you down, but still be true,
I will slip but stay with you.

[Urwen]

Anglachel/Gurthang?


Strong I am, though slim and light, - Made out of star-iron, and yet easy to carry
Soft I am, although I bite, - Can wound enemies greatly, yet soft towards its wielders; plus it broke down easily
I'll let you down, but still be true,
I will slip but stay with you. - These last two lines are obvious to anyone who read CoH

[Pitchwife]

I'm afraid not. I don't think I'd describe a sword as soft, and it eventually bit its wielders same as all others.

[Galadriel55]

It took me some pondering, but I think I have it.

Sam's Elven rope:

Strong I am, though slim and light, - well, it is - stronger and lighter than any other rope Sam has seen
Soft I am, although I bite, - bites Gollum's hands, it doesss, lrecioussss...
I'll let you down, but still be true, - it holds fast as it lets Frodo and Sam down into the gorge
I will slip but stay with you. - the knot slipped, and so the rope stayed with Sam and was not left behind.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It took me some pondering, but I think I have it.

Sam's Elven rope:

Strong I am, though slim and light, - well, it is - stronger and lighter than any other rope Sam has seen
Soft I am, although I bite, - bites Gollum's hands, it doesss, lrecioussss...
I'll let you down, but still be true, - it holds fast as it lets Frodo and Sam down into the gorge
I will slip but stay with you. - the knot slipped, and so the rope stayed with Sam and was not left behind.

Exactly. Over to you!

[Galadriel55]

Loved it. Love it when it's not at all obvious, but when you strike upon the answer, you know you hit gold. And love the paradoxical double-meaning references.

These two riddles are a hard act to follow.



Danceless and dishless, but never more dull,
Weapon fell in the hands of a crone,
Neither of Lorien, nor Dimrill Dale,
In Mundburg or Imladris would be at home,
Something to carry, to store, or to hold,
A sword of speech, a well of words.

[Pitchwife]

I want to say a book or possibly scroll, but I can't make the rest fit yet. Crone makes me think of Ioreth, or is there another one Tolkien mentions somewhere? Possibly Lobelia, in which case the fell weapon would be an umbrella...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I want to say a book or possibly scroll, but I can't make the rest fit yet. Crone makes me think of Ioreth, or is there another one Tolkien mentions somewhere? Possibly Lobelia, in which case the fell weapon would be an umbrella...

You are on the right general track with book, and very much on the right track with the crone line. To be clear though, the final answer is not a book.

[Pervinca Took]

Is it athelas? Seems dull, Ioreth speaks of it, it leads to a rhyme, and it presumably grows *relatively* near to Mundburg and Imladris.

(P.S. I thought Ioreth - Lobelia - Umbrella too - then thought of Dora Baggins!)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Is it athelas? Seems dull, Ioreth speaks of it, it leads to a rhyme, and it presumably grows *relatively* near to Mundburg and Imladris.

(P.S. I thought Ioreth - Lobelia - Umbrella too - then thought of Dora Baggins!)

Alas no, athelas has nothing to do with the riddle.

An umbrella does, though.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, so:

A dish and a spoon on the table danced

"Danceless and dishless" leaves a spoon, on a table. The 'dull' part could be a reference to the spoon in the song being of silver, I guess?

If line 2 is about an umbrella, could this be a very cleverly disguised "My first is in X" riddle?

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

"Danceless and dishless" leaves a spoon, on a table. The 'dull' part could be a reference to the spoon in the song being of silver, I guess?

Correct. No dance, no dishes, leaving silver spoons.

Originally Posted by Hui

If line 2 is about an umbrella, could this be a very cleverly disguised "My first is in X" riddle?

Clever idea, but no. However, there is similarity with that riddle structure in that the lines are not directly related to each other and need to e regarded separately.

[Pervinca Took]

Is it the spoons that Lobelia pinches?

Or the stolen things she hides in her umbrella?

Or the case of spoons Bilbo gives her?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Is it the spoons that Lobelia pinches?

Or the stolen things she hides in her umbrella?

Or the case of spoons Bilbo gives her?

The latter. That is the correct meaning of the first line.

The umbrella line is a separate entity, as are the rest. There is an overlying connection, but each line has a separate "mini-answer".