Riddles in the Downs

[Galadriel55]

You are on the right general track but lots of incorrect things in your answer. And I am not really clear about which lines you are referring to in your guess, except -

Originally Posted by Urwen

And the 'burst' is Dagor Aglareb, which literally started with a burst, a burst of lava.

It is not, but you are gonna kick yourself.

[Galadriel55]

Reposting on new page. A whole page of guesses for the same riddle!



The oldest one, the nameless one,
Did not know warmth of shining sun.
But in the darkness shone the stars,
And in their light, from countries far
The Second came in second's turn -
But, in the end, though day was won,
Who twice had torched, third time must burn.

But better known in tale of years
The younger sisters - one for tears,
And one for joy, resounding joy
Which yet failed darkness to destroy;
But peace was guarded well, until
Twixt triumph great and ruin great -
But stopping short of western hills -
A burst reversed the tides of fate,
Breaking resistance, kindling dread,
Incinerating every shred
Of estel in the lord now dead
Whose line was estel to beget.

I'm not the least, but I'm the last.
The closing rage of hardships past,
Of foes and heroes both long gone.
You cannot count us on one hand -
Though brief our line, 'tis yet too long,
And we destroyed our motherland.
I am the end. I am the start.
I split the thread of time apart.

[Urwen]

Okay, now I am confused. That type of comment is usually made when it's something I am super-infested in, but you said it's not Feanor and company and you also said it's not Turin & company, and the lines don't sound like they are describing Maeglin and company either.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, now I am confused. That type of comment is usually made when it's something I am super-infested in, but you said it's not Feanor and company and you also said it's not Turin & company, and the lines don't sound like they are describing Maeglin and company either.

No, no. Just that your guess for the burst is a perfect close-but-no-cigar, and you will kick yourself when you know the answer. Also, I hope you are not infested in Feanors and Turins.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No, no. Just that your guess for the burst is a perfect close-but-no-cigar, and you will kick yourself when you know the answer. Also, I hope you are not infested in Feanors and Turins.

Well, actually, I'd love to be infested by Feanors and Turins.

[Urwen]

Oh, and I misread the name. It's not Dagor Aglareb, but Dagor Bragollach.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Oh, and I misread the name. It's not Dagor Aglareb, but Dagor Bragollach.

Yes. Aglareb also had a bit of a firework display IIRC, but Bragollach was the more impressive one.

[Urwen]

Okay, I now think I can explain the riddle. Or at least some parts of it.



The oldest one, the nameless one,
Did not know warmth of shining sun.
But in the darkness shone the stars,
And in their light, from countries far
The Second came in second's turn -
But, in the end, though day was won,
Who twice had torched, third time must burn. - Feanor

But better known in tale of years
The younger sisters - one for tears,
And one for joy, resounding joy
Which yet failed darkness to destroy;
But peace was guarded well, until
Twixt triumph great and ruin great -
But stopping short of western hills -
A burst reversed the tides of fate,
Breaking resistance, kindling dread, - Dagor Bragollach
Incinerating every shred
Of estel in the lord now dead
Whose line was estel to beget. - Fingolfin

I'm not the least, but I'm the last.
The closing rage of hardships past,
Of foes and heroes both long gone.
You cannot count us on one hand -
Though brief our line, 'tis yet too long,
And we destroyed our motherland. - Orcs, who destroyed Beleriand
I am the end. I am the start.
I split the thread of time apart.

[Galadriel55]

Well, Feanor amd Fingolfin you had before, now you have Dagor Bragollach, but the main question of who is I and who are "we" (i.e. the group) remain in shadow. They are not Orcs.

[Huinesoron]

It looks to me like the group can be placed on the timeline of the First Age:

"The oldest one, the nameless one"

"The [Noldor] came in second's turn"

Then Feanor dies.

"younger sister... one for tears" - interestingly, there's nothing to say where this sister falls in the timeline.

"And one for joy, resounding joy"

Then "peace was guarded well".

Then the Dagor Bragollach takes up most of the second stanza, with Fingolfin's death.

"I'm not the least, but I'm the last"

Then "we destroyed our motherland", which means the motherland (Beleriand?) must have existed until the last's time.

That's five clearly marked members of the group - but the poem also says "You cannot count us on one hand".

hS

[Galadriel55]

Precisely. I knew you knew what you're talking about with your first post (though I should make a correction - technically 5 words, not 3). The answer is yours to claim - but if you are deferring to Urwen for the final step, Urwen, I suggest you read Hui's post very closely.

Originally Posted by Hui

It looks to me like the group can be placed on the timeline of the First Age

Yes indeed. I was thinking to myself as I was writing it that it was like trying to compose an abridged history of the First Age in verse.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Precisely. I knew you knew what you're talking about with your first post (though I should make a correction - technically 5 words, not 3). The answer is yours to claim - but if you are deferring to Urwen for the final step, Urwen, I suggest you read Hui's post very closely.

I think I fluked into the right answer while musing over the Fingolfin part, but it looked like Urwen was having fun, and, like... fun is the point of the thread.

hS

[Urwen]

I think that the 'joy' sister is Lalwen.

[Urwen]

So if the riddle is literal, then maybe the group members literally have underlined names. But that post also says that 'the last' may be more than one person, suggesting Amrod and Amras...

[Urwen]

Also, how about a compromise? If I don't get it after three days, then Huey can post his answer.

[Galadriel55]

No, no, no..... getting colder again. No to Lalwen, no to all of Fingolfin's sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, and other relations. Fingolfin is NOT PART OF THE GROUP. Nor are his various family members. Fingolfin is only there as part of the events of the Bragollach.

Originally Posted by Urwen

So if the riddle is literal, then maybe the group members literally have underlined names. But that post also says that 'the last' may be more than one person, suggesting Amrod and Amras...

The last is "I", singular. "We/us" is the group in its entirety.

[Urwen]

Well, it isn't Ainur, Elves, Men or Orcs...q.q

Also, technically, all of these races except Orcs are part of Fingolfin's relations. And Orcs could be too, both because they were once Elves and...well, if the rumor is true about Meglin being a half-Orc...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Also, how about a compromise? If I don't get it after three days, then Huey can post his answer.

It's up to the two of you, really. If you feel that you're getting more frustration than enjoyment, it might be something to consider. I ain't going anywhere, I'm happy to keep riddling for three days or ten days or however long.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, it isn't Ainur, Elves, Men or Orcs...q.q

Yup.

[Urwen]

Well, I just so happen to have a theory...

Ents, perhaps? In which case, the person of joy could be Merry...but then who is the one for tears? And ents don't have a nameless one, but Dwarves do, the first one whom Aule wanted to smash...but there are no sisters there...and neither ents nor Dwarves destroyed their homeland.

Valar could be blamed for the sinking of Beleriand, but you said it's not them...unless... *goes to check something out*

[Galadriel55]

What can I say? You have already pointed out the problems with those guesses yourself.

[Urwen]

Maybe it's the Battles themselves? The first unnamed Battle between Valar and Morgoth, then Dagor nuin Gilliath, then Dagor Aglareb, which could stand for joy, then Dagor Bragollach, then Nirnaeth, which is obviously tears, and finally, the War of Wrath, which destroyed Beleriand.

[Galadriel55]

Ye! Utuvienyes! At last! The six great battles of Beleriand. The first is the First Battle, not the prehistoric Valar wars, but otherwise this answer is correct. Here is the breakdown:

The oldest one, the nameless one,
Did not know warmth of shining sun.

The First Battle took place before the Sun. As far as I can remember, it is also the only battle without a proper name, it's just "the first" battle.

But in the darkness shone the stars,
And in their light, from countries far
The Second came in second's turn -
But, in the end, though day was won,
Who twice had torched, third time must burn.

Dagor-nuin-giliath, the Second Battle, was fought in the light of the stars right after the Noldor returned from overseas. The Noldor were victorious, but Feanor died.

But better known in tale of years
The younger sisters - one for tears,

The Nirnaeth.

And one for joy, resounding joy
Which yet failed darkness to destroy;
But peace was guarded well...

The Aglareb, the Glorious Battle, which failed to vanquish Morgoth but set the Leauer to fence him in.

...until
Twixt triumph great and ruin great -

Between the Aglareb and Nirnaeth

But stopping short of western hills -

The assault was fended off in Hithlum

A burst reversed the tides of fate,
Breaking resistance, kindling dread,
Incinerating every shred
Of estel in the lord now dead
Whose line was estel to beget.

The Bragollach happened, literally burning a lot of stuff, driving Fingolfin to despair.

I'm not the least, but I'm the last.
The closing rage of hardships past,
Of foes and heroes both long gone.

The War of Wrath - literally, rage. Interestingly, on the topic of battle names, I am not sure if it has a name in Elvish. But that is a side thought.

You cannot count us on one hand -

Not unless you are the Six-Fingered Count from Princess Bride, but the count doesn't count.

Though brief our line, 'tis yet too long,

Only six of them, though some undoubtedly would feel that it was six too many.

And we destroyed our motherland.

Beleriand was ruined bit by bit during the wars and altogether wrecked in the War of Wrath.

I am the end. I am the start.
I split the thread of time apart.

The Sixth Battle marks the boundary of the First Age.




And now, after a tenacious effort, over to Urwen!

[Urwen]

Well, as it happens, I already had a riddle prepared. This one is likewise based on a song, with few alterations


It's the choices that I made
And the paths I didn't take
That led to this fate
I should've let them close the gate

All the things that I've done
And the ones that I helped break
All the wrongs I've done
My fate is cold and bleak

Every obstacle on the road
Every branching path
Means a choice I wish I didn't make
I wish I chose a different path to take

It was so hard to see ahead
Though behind it all, my path was clear
If I'd only known that then
But there is no start again

I cannot erase the stains
On the life I have lead
They tried to warn me
But I didn't heed their warnings
For I was too blind to see

All the things I can't forget
All the harm that I've done
When I failed to be a friend
When I broke but did not mend

Could I learn the lesson there
Could I do more than just regret
I should have known who was right
I should've listened

[Galadriel55]

The predominant theme of the riddle is repeatedly regretting choices and poor outcomes, which means TURIN has to be guessed at some point as being the character with most to regret in that sense.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The predominant theme of the riddle is repeatedly regretting choices and poor outcomes, which means TURIN has to be guessed at some point as being the character with most to regret in that sense.

I almost replied yesterday with "what's the reason this ISN'T Turin", but decided to take another look before I did.

I wonder if the gate in line 4 is literal? That could point more towards Feanor, specifically the part where he chatted with Melkor at the gate of Formenos.

hS

[Urwen]

Sorry, Huey, but G55 has it.


Yes, the line 4 is literal, but it refers to Nargothrond's gate.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Yes, the line 4 is literal, but it refers to Nargothrond's gate.

That was what I thought, but wasn't sure because as I recall it was more about the bridge.

Anyways, Hui, if you wanna have a go, it's yours. You've had pretty mich equal claim to both past riddles, and I just had a turn.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That was what I thought, but wasn't sure because as I recall it was more about the bridge.

Anyways, Hui, if you wanna have a go, it's yours. You've had pretty mich equal claim to both past riddles, and I just had a turn.

Thanks, but I have no ideas, which is the other reason I didn't go for it.

hS

[Urwen]

Would anyone else consider this?

I don't want this to turn into 'one person is giving riddles and everyone else is guessing' thread.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Would anyone else consider this?

I don't want this to turn into 'one person is giving riddles and everyone else is guessing' thread.

If someone else has a riddle ready, go for it. I just have a patch of busy IRL, and though I've thought of a seedling of an idea for a riddle, I haven't been able to formulate it yet. So if anyone wants to take the floor, go for it.

[Urwen]

Well, I can wait until someone else has it ready.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, I've struggled with this one for several days, but I think maybe brevity is the answer here:

The choice is mine:
The victor who failed,
The line that failed,
Or the law that failed.
Which?

hS

[Urwen]

First line reminds me of Isildur, winning against Sauron in combat, but failing to destroy the Ring. Meanwhile, line three reminds me of Miriel, who had the law on her side, but got usurped anyway...

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

First line reminds me of Isildur, winning against Sauron in combat, but failing to destroy the Ring. Meanwhile, line three reminds me of Miriel, who had the law on her side, but got usurped anyway...

The first line has nothing to do with Isildur. The third line... you're right about the law, and the line is not directly about Miriel.

hS

[Urwen]

Hm, is it Phary? All the lines fit him...

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Hm, is it Phary? All the lines fit him...

(Ar-)Pharazon has nothing to do with this riddle, and the question is about a choice. You need to figure out which of the three the speaker chose.

hS

[Urwen]

So someone had to choose between the three that were mentioned in other three lines?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So someone had to choose between the three that were mentioned in other three lines?

Correct.

hS

[Urwen]

The choice is mine:
The victor who failed, - ???
The line that failed, - Line of Isildur
Or the law that failed. - Aldarion's law, possibly
Which?