Scarburg Meadhall Discussion Thread

[Folwren]

I forget how far along Saeryn is...at least 3 months, I think...

Both those ideas are good, but I kind of think the labor thing might be a lot of character plot stuff, too, won't it? It will happen in time, so I don't have any preference if it's what we do next or later.

I'll see if I can think of any plot ideas.

For now, what needs to happen? Can we cut to the meeting with Athanar and all the others?

-- Folwren

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hello everyone, I feel forced to say after being, ahem, a little bit neglecting the happenings here for some time... until now Nog poked me to pay a visit here again.

That said, I certainly consider that a good thing and I would be very happy if that sort of restarted my presence here. Even though, I hasten to add, my performance during summer, at least in the beginning, might be somewhat scattered due to my constant appearances and disappearances between working in the city and staying in wilderness with no electricity and related devices. Anyway, I think scanty performance is better than none. Perhaps.

I had been following the thread from time to time, but I have only very vague ideas on what has been happening recently, or, say, since I have last been active. I have very briefly reviewed some stuff that seems to be happening here now, but I must confess I probably still don't grasp all the implications of what is happening and why. "So there apparently came some elf" is what I would tell you if you asked me to recall what's been happening between my last post and the current events.

Therefore, I have been thinking, maybe someone could briefly (really really briefly is enough) bring me up to speed since... eh... well about since the time Eodwine returned? The last thing I recall being a part of was the celebration evening after that. So, from that point on... most of all, if there were any major events (or you can start with the elf).

As for taking Scyrr and other things, I think I will respond on it once I get my thoughts sorted first

[littlemanpoet]

Ugh. I have seen all together too many 'giving birth' scenes on tv. They're all the same. Sorry.

I was thinking more along the lines of outlawry, but on a bigger scale. I realize it's early in the 4th age, but I find it quite interesting that Tolkien imagined youths "playing orc" and such....

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Therefore, I have been thinking, maybe someone could briefly (really really briefly is enough) bring me up to speed since... eh... well about since the time Eodwine returned? The last thing I recall being a part of was the celebration evening after that. So, from that point on... most of all, if there were any major events (or you can start with the elf).

I'll try to recall the main events from the last two days.

Eodwine returns and swears an oath to Athanar. Athanar makes him Counsellor.
Ginna and Harreld are engaged.
Rowenna and Scyld decide to exchange their stories.
And the big one, Scyrr insulting Saeryn and Eodwine in front of everyone.

This morning, Eodwine talks to Scyrr, but the man is stubborn and insults him further.
Laerdil the Elf arrives. He plays the harp.
Athanar asks Eodwine and Laerdil about how they think Scyrr should be punished.
Ledwyn and Theolain arrive. Theolain promptly burns his hand, but Laerdil uses a *coughmagiccough* herb to cure it. Theolain is now playing outside with Harreld and Ledwyn is wondering where is he.
Athanar decides to hold a largish council, made up of people from the new and old Scarburg, as well as the Elf.



Did I miss something?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Thanks very much, Gal! I am just in the process of (at least partially) rereading the game thread since the Scyrr incident (now I remember, that was a nice "event"), so if something important is missing, hopefully I will notice.

As for the question that has been raised here - if someone should "take" Scyrr, I wouldn't mind that, but I think Foley could also manage it pretty well; and then of course if there was anybody else really interested in it...

Scyrr was originally mostly "my creature" of sorts, but like I said, my appearances here may be somewhat random during the summer, so if he is supposed to be the central persona of this hearing, maybe it would be better if Foley took him. It depends a lot on the timeframe (RL time) in which you want to write this.

[Folwren]

Honestly, I'd rather keep him a character that floats, rather than me being put in charge of him. I can see Legate and I taking him as need or opportunity allows, as well as anyone else who'd like to.

Elempi, you crack me up. Too many dramatized labor scenes! haha!

Okay, so outlaws and bandits? Or ... youths playing orcs? What?

Galadriel - did Ginna and Harreld get engaged? I'd forgotten. I wish Lhuna could come back and write.

Nothing of immportance to add, I'm afraid, and too tired to write anything tonight.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Galadriel - did Ginna and Harreld get engaged?

Well Harreld said yes and Ginna said yes, and then they danced together, and in the morning Ginna told Saeryn that they will get married but they have not talked in detail about it yet, and that she still has to tell her father. Saeryn decided that she'll ask Eodwine to write a letter to Randver.

EDIT: here are the posts of their "engagement":

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...postcount=1216
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...postcount=1221
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...postcount=1237

And the talk with Saeryn:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...postcount=1246

[Folwren]

Ah. Thank you very much, Galadriel.

-- Folwren

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Elempi, you crack me up. Too many dramatized labor scenes! haha!

They're so predictable. I know there are the ooh and aww people who love the result, which is fine. But spare me the screaming, heaving, rip the husband's lips off drama.

Okay, so outlaws and bandits? Or ... youths playing orcs? What?

It was just a thought. I'd like to see something a bit more major. I don't know what would be realistic within the feigned history Tolkien has left us. A Dunlending uprising? Those petty lords in the Middle Emnet rebelling? I'm kind of interested in actual battling and political stuff, I suppose - and I hope we can put the in-fighting at Scarburg behind us once and for all. Not my favorite story line.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

They're so predictable. I know there are the ooh and aww people who love the result, which is fine. But spare me the screaming, heaving, rip the husband's lips off drama.

What about if it's something real, for a change?

Though even that might not be necessary to boost up some plot/character stuff by the time it comes.

Originally Posted by LMP

It was just a thought. I'd like to see something a bit more major. I don't know what would be realistic within the feigned history Tolkien has left us. A Dunlending uprising? Those petty lords in the Middle Emnet rebelling? I'm kind of interested in actual battling and political stuff, I suppose - and I hope we can put the in-fighting at Scarburg behind us once and for all. Not my favorite story line.

Well outlaws could either come from Dunland, or from upriver Anduin (though those would have to get through the whole East Emnet first), or -- have some Rohirrim rebell. Possibly one of the petty lords you speak of. Or it can be as vague as a dead/injured man discovered in Scarburg vicinities and an investigation being made. Perhaps a man of relative importance should be the victim, to bring out the political side of the issue...

...I'm not the politics kind of person, so I can't think of political issues that could arise that would involve fighting. :/

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

...I'm not the politics kind of person, so I can't think of political issues that could arise that would involve fighting. :/

Shoot. If only this was set in - like - 50 4th age instead 14 4th age - then we could play with the generational change of a whole generation that has no appreciation for the War of the Ring. It could start with the Red Eye being painted on walls, and blow up into a cultural phenomenon with violence and ugliness. Sort of what Tolkien foresaw... but then, he felt it wasn't worth writing. Hmm..

[Folwren]

Yes, but we ARE in year 14, so we can't. Would there be any roving orcs still? Dunlendings seem a potential people to use, too - one that the Eorlings are used to distrusting. Hey - Wormtongue was a Rohanian. What if there were others like him that had fallen prey to Saruman and decided to cause some trouble? I don't know how feasible that is, and it would probably take a long time to develop in order for it to be of any use to us.

If it had not been that Javan had been improving, I would put him up for a possible plot twister - make him steal something and run. But he has been improving and I don't want to make him digress.

Nothing else now. Maybe I'll think of something.

[Galadriel55]

Theolain can run away.

[littlemanpoet]

The land is called The Mark.
The people of the land are called Eorlings.

Gondorians call it Rohan and the people living there the Rohirrim; but never "Rohannians".

Theolain running away? He wouldn't get far on those little legs unless he was abducted, but that's already been done.

Orcs don't go where the risk is too great compared to the reward.

Maybe I'm ready for an adventure in which Eodwine or someone leaves Scarburg with the expectation of coming back.

[Nogrod]

I think both orcs and Dunledings are a bit far fetched - and I think the Mead Hall has had it's due of renegades and outlaws.

But how about the local lords and the peasants / basic farmers?

It seems the local lords have had it their way before the Mead Hall was introduced at Mid-Emnet and round 1 has been taken place just "recently". But things seem quite far from settled in any way. I could check back for those lords during the weekend to look for scenarios...

Also, I would think there should be locals hating the way their lords have conducted their ways and maybe they have had their fill? A kind of local rebellion might be an interesting idea, especially when Athanar and Eodwine need to stand for order while they probably also understand the claims of the rebels to be justified?

One added scenario could be that the local farmers take the Mead Hall as just one extra-load of the "twisted lords"?


I think there is a wealth of opportunities.

[littlemanpoet]

These seem like good ideas. I think that Eodwine and Athanar may have conflict erupt between them as to how to handle rebellions. This could be interesting.

[Nogrod]

If the main problem would be whether to, in shorthand, "call for law and order" or to "understand the possible rebels", I think the roles are pretty much given between Athanar and Eodwine, not probably so much because of their personalities (even if there probably is something of that there too), but especially because of their status: Athanar has the official position and is responsible to his king as the lord of the Mead Hall, a representative of the king and the realm, whilst Eodwine can take his stance more freely not being in charge officially or judicially.

But if that is about the scenario we'll start building I'd suggest we make the rebels do something relatively serious as otherwise it might be a real pain to write Athanar demanding law and order in the face of probably quite righteous claims of the rebels (heh, I'd hate to be on the "wrong side" all the time - even if writing for a person who is not like you yourself is always rewarding in other ways...).

I'll try to check the local lords for any ideas how they could fit in during the weekend as I said, but just as food for thought to everyone let me recount them as my memory serves me.

There's this "great lord" who was I think Eodwine's and Athanar's superior in the great war: a great soldier and commander who has grown somewhat greedy as a lord amongst "nobodies" and is very mindful of his stature. I wouldn't say he is evil, but maybe thinks himself superior (in many cases that might be true) and takes his new luxury-"retirement" as given.

Then there's this one I'd call the "evil one". An intelligent, mindful lord who's not talking or doing openly even half of what he actually thinks and does. To him I'd be willing to give some really nasty motivations - or at least egoistical ends he'd be ruthlessly pursuing. An obvious central-plotter for us - or the obvious target of the rebellion?

The third is actually third and fourth. There is this old lord who was fighting at the Pelennor Fields and was at least known by A & E (needs to check), and it seems he has stayed true over the years - as was seen in the first confrontation where he saved the day by overriding his son.

But he has given the lordship to his son who is reckless, hot-headed and wants to show-off to the other two lords. The last time we left them the situation was quite delicate between the father and the son, so maybe it should be revisited and we should decide how matters went after Athanar and his soldiers left?

But it seems they all (except perhaps the third one) have misused their status by levying taxes or tax-like payments, making partisan judgements in the absence of a Mead Hall to speak the law, and basically taking advantage of the local people.

[Folwren]

Hm. An uprising sounds very interesting. That would case a lot of rippling effects in Scarburg that would grow immensely. I see great potential.

What, Elempi, don't like 'Rohanians'?

I KNEW something wasn't right in what I was writing the other night, but I didn't care enough to figure it out. Thank you, kind sir, for correcting me. :P

If it came to a disagreement between Athanar and Eodwine, wouldn't Eodwine give in? I mean, he's there to support Athanar and counsel him, but if Athanar chooses another course, Eodwine's duty would be to stand behind him. They could disagree in private, and all, but surely they'd show a strong front in public. I don't know how much Eodwine is similar to Thornden, but that seems to be what Thornden would do.

Speaking of, I want to write him again. Are we going to move forward with this Scyrr thing? I do want to see that story-line wrapped up.

[littlemanpoet]

Folwren is right. If there is no justification, no inkling of rectitude to be found in the rebellion at all, then Eodwine will simply support his lord, and that's that. And that would be boring, to me. If, however, there was something justifiable in the rebels' motivations, even in their own minds, then there might/would be contention between A & E. The greater the seeming justification, the greater the confrontation, even to the point of being open before the folk of Scarburg. That would not be boring to me.

I wonder if Firefoot is around? Maybe the interaction between Scyld and Rowenna could be part of the build-up, considering their somewhat common backgrounds...?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Folwren is right. If there is no justification, no inkling of rectitude to be found in the rebellion at all, then Eodwine will simply support his lord, and that's that. And that would be boring, to me. If, however, there was something justifiable in the rebels' motivations, even in their own minds, then there might/would be contention between A & E. The greater the seeming justification, the greater the confrontation, even to the point of being open before the folk of Scarburg. That would not be boring to me.

Originally Posted by me

But if that is about the scenario we'll start building I'd suggest we make the rebels do something relatively serious as otherwise it might be a real pain to write Athanar demanding law and order in the face of probably quite righteous claims of the rebels

That's exactly what I was talking about - only adding the other dimension of the scene. So there has to be a decent justification on the rebels' part (which should not be hard to come by), but there should also be some drastic action on their behalf so that it is not easy to take "your side".

I'd hope to find a storyline where anyone of us as ourselves, the writers, would honestly find it hard to say what is right or wrong - then we should adopt positions to our characters and see what comes out of it.

That would be challenging and interesting at the same time. If one of the sides is clearly right and the other wrong there is nothing interesting to write for.

I have a few preliminary ideas about the lords but let me think about them & check a few "facts" before coming open with them for you to have your say, hopefully tomorrow...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Are we going to move forward with this Scyrr thing? I do want to see that story-line wrapped up.

Good point.

I have been waiting for the writers of those characters involved to kind of say "hi I'm in for this", but well, it seems we just have to go forwards without many of the character-writers involved.

Let's wrap it up pretty fast, shall we?

I can post a short one making Athanar wist to hear Scyrr on his part first. Then whoever (Legate, Folwren, lmp) can make Scyrr's POV. Then maybe a few POV's of others and Athanar makes the decision... Okay?


Who wishes to take Scyrr?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Good point.

I have been waiting for the writers of those characters involved to kind of say "hi I'm in for this", but well, it seems we just have to go forwards without many of the character-writers involved.

Let's wrap it up pretty fast, shall we?

I can post a short one making Athanar wist to hear Scyrr on his part first. Then whoever (Legate, Folwren, lmp) can make Scyrr's POV. Then maybe a few POV's of others and Athanar makes the decision... Okay?


Who wishes to take Scyrr?

Just a remark since I happen to be around now... however I won't be around at least in several upcoming days, so I cannot write at that time (though if I randomly happened to be around, I can write for Hilderinc. But probably not Scyrr).

[Nogrod]

The stage is set for Scyrr...

I'm a bit off as to what happened between him and Saeryn / Eodwine, so I would appreciate if someone else took him. If you are insecure as to what kind of person he is, then let me say this (which is kind of my view on him).

Scyrr is a tough and battle-hardened soldier to the bone - in a long line of descent. And he is proud of his lineage: not of lords but of warriors; soldiers, tough guys, those who devote their lives to their lords.

Aside his devotion and total submission to his lord he's pretty hard one to handle for anyone else. He never fails his lord and any lord could trust their lives in men like him, but there is this downside of him being rough and ready for a brawl whenever a situation presents itself. He also gets drunk more often than would be advisable and gets even more troublesome when under the influence of mead or wine. He might be a loyal friend to those colleagues of his he has learned to appreciate through years but would be highly distrustful of any new acquintances...


PS. Legate: do fill in a few lines for Hilderinc. And please tell me if there is something I should add to my post dealing Hilderinc as well...

PS2. I'd say Scyrr is old enough to have been fighting in the Pelennor fields (alongside his father who would have been there with Athanar's father's retinue), but he would have been a youngster back then and maybe not performing as well he would have done had he had the experience he has these days... so he would be a thirty-something? Like five to ten+ years younger than Athanar and Eodwine, but not a "boy" in any sense of the word.

[littlemanpoet]

I have an idea for a rebellion.

The three lords abide by the letter of the law and are letting time pass, but take advantage of whatever the letter of the law allows, having "dragon-fever", as it were (monetary greed). But in doing this they are scrupulous in making sure that they cross no line that would rouse a law and order Eorl of Middle Emnet to bring down the law upon them. And while they behave thus, they intrigue very much against the spirit of the law, preparing for overthrow.

Meanwhile, some of their primary men, such as the honorable Stedford in Friduhelm's hall, catch wind of it and do their own intriguing between the three lords, and gather a rebel force and together attempt to overthrow the one they think weakest. They say they do this because they know the hands of the Eorl are tied to protect the office of these lords even though they do and prepare evil. And they also say they do this to bring these plotting lords to justice, and establish a better man to be their lord.

This cuts things a little finer, turning things on its head, as it were.

I realize this might make Athanar's position rather difficult, and it would certainly pull at Eodwine to support the rebels for their justice as opposed to the lords for their rights; leaving him caught between the oath he swore to his lord and to the justice any man is owed.

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, for the heck of it I took a stab at Scyrr. Tell me to withdraw and I will. Should I make him more aggressive?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Okay, for the heck of it I took a stab at Scyrr. Tell me to withdraw and I will. Should I make him more aggressive?

I think it was fine. I mean Scyrr can't be a totally evil person or a baddie rotten all through for then he would not be here and a sergeant of Athanar's guard. That said he clearly has an attitude-problem - and the situation at the Mead Hall doesn't exactly help as he is partly trying to keep the side of those he thinks his own against those who to him seem to try and unjustifiably force the lordship from his lord and dishonour him and his mates (like Folwren put Thornden to reminisce: the "locals" tried to kill him on the second day and some still held those wanna-be murderers their heroes).

I mean let's not make him a caricature even if he isn't one of the nicest persons around... (Which means, no let''s not make him any more aggressive. What you wrote lmp, I think was fine.)

A few comments about the coming scenarios a bit later.

[Folwren]

I'm glad you took him, Elempi! You made him sufficiently ... unpleasant... as Nogrod said.

-- Foley

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I'm glad you took him, Elempi! You made him sufficiently ... unpleasant... as Nogrod said.

-- Foley

Well, it's nice to know I can do unpleasant.

[Nogrod]

I did actually read the whole scene about Athanar and the men of The Mead Hall visiting Faramund - and then shortly Tancred and Alboin as well. It was actually a pretty good read. To anyone willing to refresh their memories, the story starts more or less from page 21 post #815 (or p. 22 #846 the latest) and continues all along to page 25 - although there sure is other stuff there in between concerning things happening at the Mead Hall (like Raban and Javan! We need to get those two back!)

Anyway it reminded me of many things we had written concerning the local landlords and yes, Stedford lmp mentioned already (and it actually gives some quite nice portraits of our characters as well - and their relations; like how Athanar learns to really trust Thornden).

I think we need to deploy Stedford into the storyline somehow.


That said there are a few things I think we shoud all consider thinking about the new plotline.

First of all, lord Athanar has Faramund's ledger and it might reveal a thing or two about what is going on. More of that later.

Secondly, Friduhelm is weak from his illness but as we left him he was standing firm to reclaim his authority. We know not yet how it has turned out there: has Faramund taken his place as a dutiful son or has he rebelled against his father. Also would Friduhelm be ready to testify against the other lords and would they like to shut his mouth for good? And what has Stedford to do with the situation at their place, or could he be the agent to stir things up by fex. coming to the Mead Hall and reporting - whatever we decide has happened to kick us forwards?

Tancred seemed to be the realist I thought he would be and had pledged his good will (in front of some forty to fifty men in arms standing at his porch that's probably wise). But he was said to have been the commander of Eodwine - teaching him he said - and Athanar has also served under him in the Great War. He is a commanding figure, some ten years older than Eodwine and Athanar, a real war hero and a Leader (with a capital L). And I would say he will not be done away with that easily - although I think he might in the last instance be the one that could be turned back to the path of righteousness if the right chords could be played. But that I would say should be our last resort if we write ourselves into a dead-end alley...

Alboin is the sneaky one. He's also a veteran but one Eodwine dislikes a lot and it's easy to see Athanar doesn't actually love him either. There was this interesting thing back there where it was said Eodwine thought him a coward but some praised his courage... That might be a nice detail we might work on? Maybe something in their shared past, in the battle of Pelennor fields? Maybe Eodwine witnessed something Alboin does not wish to remember or to be known?


So what is going on in general - and what the ledger might reveal in part? Well, what seems to be the case is that the three lords (Tancred, Alboin and Faramund) have been exploiting the local farmers by two ways at least. Firstly by forcing them to pay over-rated amounts from any help they would give them in need - methodically taking fex. their livestock, crops, any holdings or estates as payment creating a kind of serfdom at worst (I don't think it had been said openly there but I'd see it as one natural way of "paying one's debt" to work for it). Secondly by speaking the law pretty harshly and keeping the fines themselves or at least only giving the king the basic fare and keeping the rest themselves.

And surely, if they are ruining the livelihoods of the farmers around their area the number of crime will skyrocket as people need to provide their daily bread to their families - and thus they can yield even more to themselves from trials against the people they had forced into poverty and inhuman conditions themselves in the first place.

So no wonder if people rebelled against such a rule.


~*~

Let me then end by mulling about with one idea...

Now Friduhelm declared in public that he would pay back for every farmer that came to complain about his son's rulings. How would Faramund take that humilation? How would Tancred and Alboin take it as that would undermine their authority and decisions as well? And T & A would also realise as intelligent men that the Mead Hall as such was becoming a threat to their ways as it would side with Friduhelm.

So someone would decide to get rid of Friduhelm rather sooner than later? And that would be followed by a popular revolt (led by Stedford?)?

Well possibly, but wouldn't that be a bit reckelss from T & A whom both we have characterised as shrewd and intelligent men?

Looking at it from T & A's perspective a possible pact with the MH could be the most promising route to their own continued prosperity as it seems clear - and Athanar made it clear for them all - that the king himself was especially worried about the Mid Emnet as he hasted to appoint a new eorl without waiting for Eodwine to either recover or die.

Now here we might have some rift between Eodwine and Athanar where the latter might be interested in having a deal that could be called just in some terms and being acceptable to the king and the good of the realm while Eodwine might call for some heavier moral justice. I could see Athanar as that kind of an utilitarianist.

That kind of a route would of course give us less drama... But then again, if Faramund goes and kills his father it is hard to see there being any difference of opinion between Athanar and Eodwine. Though I'm not sure they need to be of a different opinon for us to have a nice plot, but whatever.

But could there be something more shrewd machinated by Tancred and Alboin (maybe Faramund, but he seems too reckless to be able to plot anything - he could be the "joker-factor to be sure)?

Like if they consealedly aided a popular revolt to burst forth (maybe letting the uneducated to think the Mead Hall is a part of their problems) and then claimed it had to be suppressed with a strong hand, offering themselves as the champions of that?

Or if they had it the way our bankers and investment-dealers have it today and wish to get as much as they can as fast as they could as long as the cow can be milked and then wish to fly away? So how would they try to smokescreen the MH not seeing it? And how would that turn out in the minds of Eodwine and Athanar, like one saw what was happening and the other refused to believe it? No, that's a bad idea.

Okay. it's too late now and I'm off to sleep, but let's remember that we should not make Tancred or Alboin fools either. I'd like to see them as real cunning persons with witty plans our "heroes" will have hard times to crack.

And sure Faramund, Friduhelm and Stedford should play a role there.

Let's think about it.

[Folwren]

What if Faramund murdered his own father and the people revolted after that? Or, we can even elimintate murder and just say the old man died of natural causes, and Faramund, angry at what had occurred, came down harder on his people and that plus the passing of their old lord, pushes them beyond their limits.

What if, then, the word of their rebellion reaches Alboin's folk, who are not as badly pressed as Faramund's people were, but who may be over-taxed (I may be wrong in this, I can't remember if Alboin mis-treatd his folk much at all), and so they began a revolt, too. I think that it could easily spread from estate to estate, no?

Finally, Tancred hears of everything that is going on, and he may realize that he is in danger of his people wanting to demand more freedoms or rights, and so he seems to give into them before they properly revolt, while at the same time, he goes to Athanar either for help or to offer his services to help overcome revolts, perhaps with the idea in mind that if he is of service and does right by his people and by Athanar, he will gain some reward, especially if Faramund or Alboin are killed. Perhaps he will receive some of the land or something. Faramund has no children, does he? His land could potentially be in need of new lordship, if he is killed.

Everything I just wrote is really, really rough, but I don't think I could put it any better because I really know nothing about politics of that time period, or how rebellions would spread, and what would happen, and all that.

But I agree that Alboin and Tancred are probably no fools, and I almost see Tancred coming along side Athanar and Eodwine to help overcome the problems, but probably with the idea of gaining something in mind.

[littlemanpoet]

What if Faramund had rascals paid to take out his father? - they conveniently escape and Faramund publicly deplores the scoundrels?

I like Folwren's developments on Nogrod's ideas.

[Nogrod]

On the issue of the local three lords taking advantage of the farmers living around them: I think they have all being treating the farmers unjustly and perhaps also illegally. That said, I think Tancred and Alboin had started it, perhaps without even kind of realising it at first (well, Alboin might have realised it...), but it had grown little by little with their well-being and richness. (This could be the excuse for Tancred if we wish to "save him", that he became blind to what he was doing) Now Friduhelm surely was not with it, but when Faramund rose into lordship he had hard time to show he was "worth the others" and thus maybe mistreated the people around his hall the worst.

I still like the idea that Alboin is the one who is knowing what he is doing while Faramund tries to imitate him and Tancred, and Tancred himself, being old and all, just enjoys his raising living standards taking them for granted and doesn't exactly realise how much wrong he is doing (which doesn't mean he is stupid or weak - he should still be the charismatic old warlord). Tancred might also have a kind of aristocratic view of the world where he would think that after all the service he had done for Rohan it is just fair others support him in wealth after the fact, or something along the lines.


But my idea actually is the following... how about we make Faramund a real tragic character?

He's a reckless, and well, bad youngster who has been given too much too early: insecure, self-important, greedy, egoistic, willing to prove / show himself... you name it. Now his dad has put him back to his place and he is filled with anger and humiliation.

But the more important thing in general would be Friduhelm's promise to pay back to the farmers for any injustice they have been submitted to. Now that is something, as I said, both Tancred and Alboin would be afraid of, and for a reason as the general feeling could spread.

Now if we think Tancred is in the end still the decent man who has just kind of faltered from the narrow road of virtue and is thus incapable of downright monstrosities, then let's enter Alboin whom I still think might be the intelligent and dangerous person.

So hearing about what happened at Faramund's (Friduhelm's) place he would take action and organise the secret assasination of Friduhelm - likely in a way it looked like a natural death, but whatever it looked like, there would be second guesses and they would naturally point at Faramund!

If Athanar and thus king Eomer would bite it that there was just one rotten apple aka. Faramund, he (and Tancred) could continue more or less the way they had done before... Also, by thus creating a more hideous case for the common people to talk about (a son murdering his father) he might wish for the case against wrongly levied payments etc. by him and Tancred to go with lesser notice as they could always exaggerate how badly Faramund treated the people around his lands by creating rumours to fit their needs... (meaning that their practises would look reasonable in comparison to Faramund's and thus the people would settle with them and not try to find out what would be justified in general)

Here we might also have room for a courageous & intelligent Stedford who'd realise at least that it is a cover up and he would come to the Mead Hall raising the concern - or if he knew more he could actually raise a rebellion straight against Alboin! Also we would have this delicious character Faramund still with us with all the complexities.

It would call for some people to write those characters actually, I could take one of them, but let's see... If we come to this kind of solution I think Alboin needs writing as well and I could take him instead of Faramund / Stedford.

But let's see first what you think about this idea (it could easily accomodate a lot of Folwren's ideas).

[littlemanpoet]

I can't help thinking that the way Tolkien described the Mark, it was a much less complex society than what we seem to be assuming here.

[Nogrod]

Are you suggesting my plot is a complex one?


PS. There are now two posts that end up in waiting for Eodwine's answer. No hurry as such, but if we wish to get forwards the next move clearly is on Eodwine.

[littlemanpoet]

Tolkien's plot was way more complex. No problem there.

I'm suggesting that the cultural setting is not as stratified as you are describing, nor the people so under the thumb of lords. The society was known for its free land holders, with Thains and Eorls, as opposed to lords with manors holding people in feudal domination.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Tolkien's plot was way more complex. No problem there.

That's what I thought...

I'm suggesting that the cultural setting is not as stratified as you are describing, nor the people so under the thumb of lords. The society was known for its free land holders, with Thains and Eorls, as opposed to lords with manors holding people in feudal domination.

Naturally... I mean those suggestions were just shorthand notes as to some general possibilities (I mean I have already hundred times more complex ideas about it already - not to talk of adding other people's contributions to it).

Also. After our last discussion on the general political climate on Rohan I have actually taken heed of your description of it as the libertarian utopia and at least hope I have acted / written accordingly. But if it is the libertarian land I think can be backed by the writings of Tolkien at least in part, then we must remember that ultimate freedom and the absence of state also means the "freedom" to be oppressed or the "freedom" to oppress... I mean how would an independent and "free" farmer with only his family around him oppose someone like Faramund if he came there with a dozen eorlinga and demanded this or that? Or if he gave him these or those terms for a deal to help him?

I mean if you get people organized against the oppression of the higher class you know what system of political arrangement we're talking about then?

[Galadriel55]

Well most of LOTR (except for references to events that happened ages and Ages ago) takes place late TA, in the middle of a war. Fourth Age peace could potentially mean less energy dedicated to outwitting the enemy and more energy to outwitting your neighbour. I think there were other FA RPGs that explored the idea of honesty and chivalry becoming meaningless in the peaceful world and skill at court intrigues replacing them. Such a result would be a natural assumption, and court intrigue would be the main source of plot ideas once the fighting is done.

Yet from what Tolkien did write, I think he intended early FA (and 14 is still pretty early) to be a good time, and free of such "parasites". I think that he meant to bring the peace but keep the chivalry, at least for another few decades.

So it's a question of balance between staying true to what was assumed from what was written and having an interesting not-solely-character-based plot. Plus, the suggestions about the lords are not exactly court intrigue, they are just rogue lords...


PS: Legate, I just remembered something I did not include in my list of important stuff that happened recently. Harreld has discovered osanwe, but in a limited form. You might have read about it already, but, just in case.

[Folwren]

Oh, wow. That was quickly dealt with. I guess it would be...makes sense.

I would be willing to take one of the lord's characters, so long as I have a clear idea of what needs to happen. I think I'm a little confused about everything that Nogrod said, but sometime when I have more free time, I will re-read it and then ask for clarification if I need it.

-- Folwren

[littlemanpoet]

I suppose I could argue further as to how such terms as "libertarian" and "utopia" are meaningless in the context of LOTR in general, and The Mark specifically. However, how we discuss the upcoming scenario and how it actually gets written will most likely be two entirely different things, and if we are (more or less) true to the spirit of The Mark of the early 4th age, with rogue lords (which in the case of 4th age Mark would merely mean richer and more power landholders than those around them), then everything will be fine.

Speaking of which: the way it would really work in The Mark, economically, early 4th age, would be thus: The strata of government consist of king, eorls, and land holders. That's it. There is one king, now three eorls, and many landholders. Some landholders are more powerful and richer than others, and it would make sense that war veterans (if they took loot home especially), would be richer than most.

If these richer landholders are wily, they could perhaps (if they really put their minds to it) devise a plan that over the course of 14 years results in an additional layer of stratification because they were able to put a lot of other landholders around them in their debt, thus causing themselves to be seen as lords, especially seeing as this particular piece of The Mark seemed to get lost in the shuffle - which is why Eomer created the Middle Emnet Eorl in the first place. Would that work?

[Folwren]

Elempi and I are going to write a PM-post.