The Tolkien Coming of Age Club 2

[mark12_30]

Well, if we're going to really reminisce...

My niehgborhood was built in an ancient apple orchard. A few of the trees were still standing when I was ten. But the nearest candy store was in the next town. To get there, my friend B. and I used to cut through the woods to the golf course and then take a back road from there. But cutting though the woods was delightful, because we walked on what we called "The Hobbit Trail". It began at the stone wall two yards back of my house, and cut through many acres of private woods (naughty us!) til it came to a ridge. (It seemed a great big ridge to us, who were small hobbits after all.) Beyond the ridge and past a hollow lay the vast rolling Downs of 'Maynard Country Club'. I now understand the true nature of the Greens-Wight, who vented his wrath on small children that put footprints in his greens and sand-traps.



Far beyond the Golf-Downs rose the buildings of men. In those days Sharkey's Mill Buildings were inhabited by Digital Systems (before they made it big). We hunted through several candy-counters to find what we sought. It was always a relief to be safely on this side of the Golf-Downs and once again travelling the Hobbit-Trail back home.

The Hobbit was read to my class in fourth grade. Let's see, that would have been 1968 or 69 or so?... Because by 1972, I had braved The Paper Store fantasy section (Main Street) and had purchased a Red-Heraldry-Box Ballantine paperback set of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

I remember when the Gold-box set came out a few years later I wanted one of those too. And the Red Leather edition was a faroff dream... Realised at last.

[Mithalwen]

Well I think it was 79 before I read the hobbit ... (I am afraid I don't remember the 60's cos I really wasn't there... ) And although I was a precocious reader and soon having read everything in my class library had to go up to the "top class" (lol - the seven year olds!) for higher level "Wide range readers", at home it was probably Winnie the Pooh... and Issy Noho and Teddy Robinson - and other arctophile literature

[Lalwendë]

*Sigh* - I was 12 when I first read the books. Wish I could have that experience all over again... My Mum always says that if there were no books in the house then I would read the cornflake box; I've always been a bookworm. I remember learning to read from looking at maps, wondering where all the lines went. And then reading 'There was an old woman who swallowed a fly' at playschool to my friend Andrew - and then no doubt he would have gone and eaten something from the sandpit, he was that kind of boy.

When we moved to the house where my Dad was born (I guess you could say he moved back) there were lots of old tumbledown barns to be pulled down so for a while the big garden was like a battleground full of trenches, and we used to play 'War!' - the exclamation mark was very important to the game. Then we made 'the greenhouse tavern', stealing pint glasses and making 'pints' out of muddy water in them. We used to find clay pipes buried all over the place and pretend to smoke them, filling them with dust and blowing it out.

Mark - that might make an interesting thread - 'What's your Sharkey's Mill?'.

[mark12_30]

...you start it...

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Oh heavens, what fun. I remember being a wraith with a shovel frequenting a golf course around '76 or so. A friend and I tried to turn a picturesque bent in the stream into an eyot! And looking back I realize now that that picture I carry inside my head of Rohan is based on the green expanses of that same place.

[mark12_30]

Oddly, my mental picture of Rohan has been hugely influenced by the movies. Living in NE as I do, I always struggled to find good riding trails; too many young woods with no trails at all. The more I rode, the fewer fields I rode in.

Imagine riding on a golf course-- What a good way to die young.

But then, I can't picture Kentucky Bluegrass very well, either. It always has pristine white-board fences... not very rohirric.

Here in RI we have turf farms. Not very rohirric, either.

Perhaps something more like what the buffaloes run on out west...?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Imagine riding on a golf course-- What a good way to die young.

Yes, now-a-days I realize that my friend and I probably cause quite a comotion behind the scenes, or a heart attack in the greens keeper!

Actually, we had a long sloping hill, (great for sledding), bordered by an excellent if small woods which was my Fangorn. Rohan and Fangorn nestled in suburban D.C.! Funny thing is that as I first read LoTR, these where the pictures in head, not the other way around. I was the bane of the greens keeper long before I found Tolkien.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë And then reading 'There was an old woman who swallowed a fly' at playschool to my friend Andrew - and then no doubt he would have gone and eaten something from the sandpit, he was that kind of boy. ;)


[B

Mark [/B] - that might make an interesting thread - 'What's your Sharkey's Mill?'.

Lal.. just to put my mind at rest... did Andrew live to adulthood under your tender influence?

Hmm one of my "Sharkey's mill"s would be the monstrously insensitive housing development around Orange Cottage in Brockenhurst. the ugliest imaginings of 80's architects surrounting a tiny elizabethan jewel. Another is the soulless modernisation of the Inklings' Bird and Baby in Oxford... Oh dear.. I am sounding like Prince Charles...... and I do like some modern architecture

[Lalwendë]

Mithalwen, that made me laugh! You know? I have not seen him in many a year. I think our mothers had to keep us apart in the end, lest we cause any more junior mayhem. I think I may ask her if she knows where he is. He may have had to go and join the infant division of the French Foreign Legion after the little prank we got into involving the altar cloth in the local Chapel.

What have they done to the Bird & Baby? Have they ruined it? How typical...Iwas planning a trip to Oxford soon, too. I parked near it a few years ago but was unable to go in! Darn.

[Mithalwen]

Well I haven't been for a few years but as I recall, apart from some relevant Inkling photos it was that rather characterless stripped pine stye... much preferred the Lamb and Flag across the road but that was under threat from the modernisers as I recall.. Someone has been ratrher more recently and described it..... hope to go again soon.... visit old stamping grounds..

[mark12_30]

Didja know that card-making has been perfected to a high art by an elf in Forlindon? I just got the loveliest card today, and it's standing on my computer next to the previous one. See, the first one shows the Eren Luin, and the second one is a little pool on the eastern side of the mountains. You could probably see the Shire from there on a clear day...

Lucky me, to get letters (and packages!) from such a lovely elf.

[mark12_30]

The luckiest hobbit in America is sitting wrapped up in a lovely, lovely green cloak made by the Forlindon elf. Yep, the same one that made the cards... and the cookies.

Was ever a hobbit so blessed?

[Raefindel]

I'm so Blessed to have such a lovely Hobbit for a friend!

The kids keep asking for you, too!

[mark12_30]

I put the cloak on, took my dog outside, and played tag with her (and hide and seek) around the garden paths. The cloak moves beautifully, and it's warm... and it's down to my ankles! Amazing. Happy hobbit.

ps. Hubbie likes your coffee, too! He had some this morning.

[Raefindel]

Did you make him some with Splenda or Equal?

[mark12_30]

No, he can have regular sugar. He adjusts for it. (This after Rae reworks the whole recipe... )

[Raefindel]

Many people have asked me to make them a sugar-free version, which would be as simple as the regular, especially since I always have the splenda on-hand. But I've never tried it. Was hoping you had and could tell me if it's good.

Turn on your cell phone, Helen!

[Mithalwen]

*Mithalwen enters & shuts door quickly behind* Jolly cold out there...... mulled wine anyone? Beigli? just while we wait for the EE....

[Snowdog]

'What's your Sharkey's Mill?'

Wow... I think it would be some of the greenbelt woods that were around when I was a kid. Skyway Park woods is one I remember. Some fair entlings there where we would have our summer high-school keg parties. Lots of trails and creeks and such. Now... its a ghetto condo complex.

[Raefindel]

* Rae hobbles up and takes a seat in her rocking chair*

Hi Guys! Have a cup of Christmas Cheer.

Q: What do Santa Claus and Shagrat have in common?

A: They both sing slaying songs after a hard days work.

*Everyone confers and decides Rae has lost it and needs to be sent to a retirement home*

Happy Holidays from the Elf in the Northern Mountains.

[mark12_30]

Not to worry, dearie. If they didn't see it coming they likely won't notice it going by either.

I *finally* finished sorting my song sheets and lists. I have lists that go back to songs I learned in 1983. (0_0)

I wonder what I did with my old ballad collections... Once upon a time, I must have levelled at least an acre of forest, making Scottish notebooks and such. (Wonder if they're in the attic? Can't find them now. ) And I think I'm still missing a "favorites" notebook. Wonder what I did with it.

Don't tell Treebeard, he'll be after me next.

It's wonderful running across the oldies. I found several that were written by a friend. Great tunes, too.

[Samwise]

This li'l Hobbit's feelin' older, as she just turned 34 last month.... (seems just yesterday I came of age....)

Hopin' you are all well.

Have a Merry Christmas, all.

Samwisethefaithful

[mark12_30]

Umm, belated happy birthday... and Merry Christmas.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Merry Christmas, Samwise!

[Samwise]

TY very much, Hilde! And the very same to you !

[mark12_30]

I could have put this in Music Reviews, I suppose, but, well...

Sunday grey and cold just before it snowed, I was out in the woods gathering kindling. Music was on "Shuffle", and what played but the very haunting Rohirric lament after Pelennor... this one, off of the Stephen Oliver/ BBC set:

We heard of the horns in the hills ringing,
the swords shining in the South-kingdom.
Steeds went striding to the Stoningland
as wind in the morning. War was kindled.
There Théoden fell, Thengling mighty,
to his golden halls and green pastures
in the Northern fields never returning,
high lord of the host. Harding and Guthláf,
Dúnhere and Déorwine, doughty Grimbold,
Herefara and Herubrand, Horn and Fastred,
fought and fell there in a far country:
in the Mounds of Mundburg under mould they lie
with their league-fellows, lords of Gondor.
Neither Hirluin the Fair to the hills by the sea,
nor Forlong the old to the flowering vales
ever, to Arnach, to his own country
returned in triumph; nor the tall bowmen,
Derufin and Duilin, to their dark waters,
meres of Morthond under mountain-shadows.
Death in the morning and at day's ending
lords took and lowly. Long now they sleep
under grass in Gondor by the Great River.
Grey now as tears, gleaming silver,
red then it rolled, roaring water:
foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset;
as beacons mountains burned at evening;
red fell the dew in Rammas Echor.

Did I say haunting? It was. But next (from Howard Shore & Billy Boyd) came this:

Home is behind
The world is ahead.
And there are many paths to tread
Thru shadow to the edge of night
Until the stars are all alight
Mist and shadows, cloud and shade.
All shall fade.
All shall fade.


My hair stood on end.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Yes, that is very beautiful, and the time of the shuffle quite good I would say!

[Samwise]

But next (from Howard Shore & Billy Boyd) came this:
Home is behind
The world is ahead.
And there are many paths to tread
Thru shadow to the edge of night
Until the stars are all alight
Mist and shadows, cloud and shade.
All shall fade.
All shall fade.


My hair stood on end.
12-23-2004 03:31 PM

Oh, I don't doubt it. I was so upset that on the ROTK disk Billy's song seemed so short. It was so awesome.

[Child of the 7th Age]

It seems a bit disrespectful to do this right after the haunting lyrics that Helen has posted. But I've found that's the way life is....one minute you're crying and the next keeling over with laughter.

This is a brief trip down memory land. Did anyone go to college in the sixties? And does this sound vaguely familiar? These are quotations from an article about Tolkien, apparently based on a personal interview, that appeared in the New York Times, January 1967. I've pulled out the quotes that deal with topical things.

As well as hobbits-benevolent, furry-footed people, fond of bright colors-Tolkien has put into books a grizzly man who can change into a bear, a thieving, English-speaking dragon, dark horsemen in the sky who cast freezing shadows, and a dreadful war in which thousands of goblins perish. He has spilled them into a separate world called Middle-earth and dressed them with names, lineages and languages which he explains in a 104-page appendix. The explanation is sending Americans, especially students, half-mad with delight. One student's mother said: "To go to college without Tolkien is like going without sneakers."

I love that last sentence. In fact, I am stealing it for a new sig. Sounds like this reporter saw me packing my Ballentines into my luggage, being very careful they didn't get left behind.

There is a Tolkien Society of America and a Tolkien Journal. At meetings of the society it is usual to lie around eating fresh mushrooms, a favorite hobbit food, drinking cider and talking about family trees, which no hobbit can resist. One must remember to call wolves wargs, goblins orcs, treelike people ents and the sun She. A popular greeting is, "May the hair on your toes never grow less." Everyone wears a badge with a slogan naming a Tolkien character: Frodo the hobbit or Gandalf the wizard; and louder enthusiasts chalk them on walls, sometimes in three-foot-high letters, preferably at the 116th Street-Columbia University subway stop. Tolkien books sell in student cafeterias next to the cigarettes; they have been translated into nine languages including Japanese and Hebrew and are part of the degree course at Liege University. Their world sales are almost 3-million copies, but it is the Americans who are wildest about them. An unauthorized paperback edition sold well over a quarter of a million copies. In the fifties, World Science Fiction called Tolkien the best fantasy-writer of the year and gave him a model rocket. "It's upstairs somewhere," Tolkien thinks. "It has fins. Quite different from what was required, as it turns out."

Oh, my! This all sounds familiar. He must have attended the small liberal arts college that I went to, which prided itself on being "counter-culture". We actually had meetings in our dorm rooms that resembled this. Blushes and slinks off.

Students produce lots of allegories. They suggest that the Dark Lord's ring represents the Bomb, and the goblins, the Russians. Or, more cheekily, that Treebeard, the tall treelike being, "his eyes filled with age and long, slow, steady thinking," is Tolkien himself. In a rather portly note to his publishers, he replied: "It is not about anything but itself. (Certainly it has no allegorical intentions, general, particular or topical, moral, religious or political.") But he will agree that the Shire, the agreeable hobbit country, is like the West Midlands he remembers: "It provides a fairly goof living with moderately good husbandry and is tucked away from all the centers of disturbance; it comes to be regarded as divinely protected, though people there didn't realize it at the time. That's rather how England used to be, isn't it?

I am innocent of this. I never made any such outrageous comparisons to the bombs and the "Russians" or Tolkien as Treebeard! Thank goodness for all of us, that no one today would suggest that the Orcs are Russians (or vice versa) with a straight face. Would that all such useless stereotypes would float away on the wind!

If it had been left to him, he would have written all his books in Elvish. "The invention of language is the foundation," he says. "The stories were made rather to provide a world for the language rather than the reverse. To me a name comes first and the story follows. But, of course, such a work as 'The Lord of the Rings' has been edited and only as much language has been left in as I thought would be stomached by the readers. I now find that many would have liked much more." In America, especially, Tolkien words are creeping into everyday usage; for example, mathom, meaning an article one saves but doesn't use. A senior girl at the Bronx High School of Science says: "I wrote my notes in Elvish. Even now, I doodle in Elvish. It's my means of expression."

Oh, boy! I'm dying to know who wrote those notes. We have a lot of friends who went to Bronx Science just about this time....

But, at the Berkeley campus bookstore Fred Cody, the manager, said: "This is more than a campus craze; it's like a drug dream." In the U.S. hobbits have quite replaced Salinger and Golding as "in" reading. Tolkien seems to promote a mild kind of intellectual hooliganism. But his supporters argue (overwhelmingly) that, on the contrary, it does everyone good to stay in the Tolkien world, where things are still green; there is hope for people and pleasantness. At Ballantine Books, the paperback company which publishes Tolkien at $1.50 per copy, an editor thought that "young people today are interested in power and they are interesting in working out the conflict of good and evil. Here it is worked out for them."

If that sounds overly simple and sententious, consider the point C. S. Lewis once made, asking why Tolkien should have chosen to point morals in such extravagant fantasy:

"Because, I take it... the real life of men is of that mystical and heroic quality... The imagined beings have their inside on the outside; they are visible souls. And Man as a whole, Man pitted against the Universe, have we seen him at all till we see that he is like a hero in a fairy tale?"

That is one quality with a powerful appeal to students. There is another. Tolkien's writings allow thousands into the finest and most select kind of college tutorial; they demand that attention be paid. J. I. M. Stewart, another Oxford don storyteller-he writes detective stories as Michael Innes-puts the thing perfectly in his memory of Tolkien as an orator. "He could turn a lecture room into a mead hall in which he was the bard and we were the feasting listening guests."

That quote from Lewis is quite striking. So striking that I wonder if it deserves a thread and discussion? I had not seen that before.

Do any of these memories ring a bell?

[mark12_30]

That quote from Lewis is quite striking.

Quite!! Consider it stolen!!

[Ealasaide]

I agree that the quote from Lewis is quite striking and that it would make an excellent topic for a thread of its own. Do you plan to open one? If so, please let me know, I would like to drop in there.


I went to college in the early eighties, so I missed out on the other memories you mention. My initial reading of Tolkien was very solitary - locked in my bedroom every day after school. I remember thinking that I was the only one who responded so strongly to Tolkien's work, as my friends and family at the time seemed rather uninterested at best. How wrong I was!

[Raefindel]

I wish I could have termed my family's reaction as "disinterest".

I was 14 when first I read Tolkien and was met with down-right horror! My family treated me like I was reading material printed by a witches coven or a satanic cult.
They still frown upon it, even now.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Yes, Tolkien’s works had until reaching the Barrow Downs been a rather private thing for me. The only person I knew who had read it was my brother, and over the next maybe 10 years I met about three others. Still we didn’t really talk about it, and it didn’t really enter conversation until Dungeons & Dragons started up. Then the debates began at our house. D & D seemed to cheapen Tokien’s world in my view, precisely because that mystical and heroic quality was totally obscured.

And while I did not have a Frodo lives button, and only very occasionally saw graffiti bearing the names of Frodo or Gandalf, I did have two prized t-shirts in the 70’s, one with a drawing of Gandalf and one of Smaug.

If the stories had been more popular with my peers, I wonder if I ever would have read them. Probably. I confess that it surprises me to see how large numbers of college students in sixties embraced them. I simply cannot picture 'my batch' doing the same.

Also news to me was the comment that they seemed most loved in the US. Is that true? Is it still the case?

Rae, I know what you mean about some people thinking that LoTR is somehow evil. If they only knew how wrong they are!

[Lalwendë]

I love these stories of what it meant to be a Tolkien reader in the 60's/70's. In the early 80's I used to daydream about that world where everyone seemed to be a Tolkien fan, although I know my daydreams were probably far removed from reality. I always used to think it would have been wonderful to experience university life at that time. I'd actually love to see a book written about what it was like to be a Tolkien fan in those years; it might well be nostalgic, but it would be interesting to see where some of these fans went to from Tolkien. Maybe some of the 'Downers might be in it?

Growing up as a Tolkien fan in the 80's was a welcome relief; it was quite a bleak world, with the ever-present spectre of unemployment, the 'greed is good' mentality and the horrors of a cruel world on the news every day. I sometimes wonder if my love for Tolkien's world partly grew as a response to that cruel time in history. There was quite a love for Tolkien and counter-cultural literature, music and art which grew up in the Liverpool area at that time; I remember seeing Pink Floyd grafitti on this one wall in Bootle every time I went into the city. I think there was a strong need amongst young people then for what Tolkien had to offer; it was seemingly a place full of dreamers. It was always quite easy in the 80's to find fellow Tolkien fans - his work was one of the many things shared by those who 'reacted' against the cultural commercialisation of the decade.

Then I was dropped into the academic world in 1989 and endured the wasteland of the 90's, when Tolkien was seemingly deemed unworthy and uncool, and it was nigh on impossible to find any fellow fans! Or at least, any who would admit to it. With the films, somewhow fans came crawling out of the woodwork - and that is one thing I will always be thankful to the films for! Are these years something of a Renaissance for Tolkien fans? If so, I hope it carries on!

[Ealasaide]

The only person I knew who had read it was my brother, and over the next maybe 10 years I met about three others.

Hilde- am I counted amongst those three? As I recall Tolkien was quite a big thing with us in high school. You were the only person I knew over those years who was into Tolkien the same way I was, even though I didn't meet you until years after I had first read LotR.

[Raefindel]

Ealasaide , It sounds like we might be about the same age. When did you graduate high school, if I may be so bold as to ask?

I graduated in 84. I just had my 39th birthday.

I went to a private school (a Christian school) and I knew only one fellow Tolkien reader. Well, actually, she is the one who started me reading Tolkien. For a Christian school they were fairly liberal on the Tolkien subject. I remember watching "The Hobbit" animated movie at school.

[Ealasaide]

Raefindel, yes, we are very close in age. I graduated high school in the Class of '81. I turned 41 in September.

I saw a coffee mug right about the time I turned 40 that said "40 - Welcome to the Wonder years! (Wonder where they all went...)" It gave me a chuckle because I was thinking the exact same thing.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

...am I counted amongst those three?

But of course you are! And imagine my delight at finding someone who read such interesting books. (And had such equisite taste in library seating arrangements! ) Do you remember the storage room of our high school art/photograpy class, and all the graffiti covering the walls? Thinking about it, I do believe I put a tribute to Tolkien up there.

With the films, somewhow fans came crawling out of the woodwork - and that is one thing I will always be thankful to the films for! Are these years something of a Renaissance for Tolkien fans? If so, I hope it carries on!

If it is a Renaissance, I too hope it lasts. I am enjoying it tremendously!

[Child of the 7th Age]

First, thanks to everyone for their interesting responses. I went ahead and posted that thread. Visible Souls.... Friday probably isn't the best day to do that, since folk tend to be busy. But I am such a great procrastinator! If I didn't do it now, it probably wouldn't get up. But if you get a chance this weekend or next week, pop in and add your $.02.

Raefindel -

Your family's reaction must have (and still must be) hard for you. There are so many books out there now that deal with LotR and the Bible, some spelling out daily meditations and others discussing Christian themes e.g., Finding God in Lord of the Rings; Walking with Frodo, A Devotional Journey; The Gospel According to Tolkien. But perhaps they would not feel comfortable with those.

***********

Lalwende: I used to daydream about that world where everyone seemed to be a Tolkien fan, although I know my daydreams were probably far removed from reality.

Hilde: Also news to me was the comment that they seemed most loved in the US. Is that true? Is it still the case?

Interestingly, I do think it was more popular in the US than in England in the late 60s and early 70s, although I wouldn't say that is true now. I spent a fair amount of time living over there then (at the university and later doing research for my dissertation) so I've got at least a little basis of comparison.

The reason, however, that there were so many Tolkien fans was precisely because the kids in the US felt so alientated from what was happening in the government and the society as a whole. It was an exhilarating time to be alive (we thought we were remaking the world. ), but also sad and frustrating. The Vietnam War hung over the heads of college students. Several of my friends died fighting and there were others who made a hard decision to apply for a CO or to take the risk of ferrying people over to Canada. (My home was in Detroit, which is right on the border.)

The frustration about the war spilled over into many areas. College students were looking for something that would get them away from the problems and frustrations of the 60s, but they were also searching for books that took a strong moral stand. Tolkien was part of this equation. His emphasis on protecting trees and the environment was especially beloved, since many students were involved with the environmental movement that was just getting off the ground.

Of course, there were many differences between the values of the Catholic professor from Oxford and those of the counter-culture students. However, we didn't know that. Very few students knew much about who Tolkien was since not much had been published. We were years away from Carpenter's biography or the Letters. There was a book out by Lin Carter, and another one by William Ready, I think; the latter was really bad. (JRRT was very angry about that one.) A few more things were out in England but it wasn't like today when it's easy to sign onto Amazon.co.uk and immediately buy a book. So things were pretty isolated. Most of the information that I got came through the Tolkien Society. (I remember someone named Vera Chapman who headed it at one point and who wrote fantasy herself.)

As Gandalf told Frodo, we're all stuck with the problems and the challenges of whatever age we were born in. And all we can do is try to respond in a positive way.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Having lived outside of Washington D.C., I suppose that my surroundings were a bit bleak and pessimistic in the early 70’s and I missed a great deal of the good aspects that the older kids had found in that era. But there seemed to be a tangible sense of humiliation and cynicism floating down from in the adult world, no doubt from the duel jolts of Vietnam and Watergate. So finding Middle Earth did quite a bit to revive a dying a sense of hope and ideals, and brought back beauty to life.