Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[the phantom]

There are oh so many things to say, but I'm not quite done with my reread. Just one quick question before I go back to reading-

Boro- have you decided upon your alignment yet?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Boro- have you decided upon your alignment yet?

It's always been with the Orcs good sir. You really expected the Elvsies to fall for the "I'm the Seer" stunt?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Due to unforeseen circumstances, Borc is no longer with us. He was an ordo.

Dead:
Feanorc and Niennorc - beheaded in the dark
Lottielf (Elladan) - axed in the head
Izanordorc (ordo) - head cut off in her sleep
Borc (ordo) - nommed some poison by accident

Alive:
Celuien
Foley
Glirdy
Greenie
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Mira
Nerwen
Nog
Phantom
Rune
Sally
Shasta
Steve
Vanilwa
Zil

[the phantom]

Sure, just when I'm about to engage in a very fun back-and-forth go and drop out of the game! Hmph!

[wilwarin538]

So I'm just coming on to clear up a few things before I go to sleep, I wasn't able to come on a lot yesterday, so I'd like to give the more detailed explanation to my actions now, that I hadn't had the chance to do yesterday.

Where I was there was a tie between Lottie, Sally and Boro, I didn't want to vote for Boro and was ok with lynching either Lottie or Sally. I hadn't had the chance to really read over things very thoroughly so regarding Izzy all I knew was that she was ok with lynching Boro, but I didn't know how she felt about Lottie and Sally (that's why I asked who she was going for, but I didn't have time to wait for her answer). I figured Phantom would vote Boro. So I thought if I put both my votes for, let's say Sally, but Izzy would have preferred to kill Lottie than she wouldn't have been able to do it since Phantom's votes for Boro would have outnumbered her (and same if I voted Lottie, but she wanted to lynch Sally). So since I was ok with lynching both, the only way that made sense to me was to split my votes, and that way if she wanted to kill Boro she could, and my votes wouldn't have made a difference anyway, but if she really really wanted Lottie or Sally dead than she could still do that (but it would just result in a tie).

Now everyone's like "oh my, she's advocating double lynches! how aweful" and I'm here wondering when on earth did double lynching become such an aweful thing, because I seem to remember that early on in WW it was a common occurence, then suddenly it wasn't allowed by Mods anymore, and now no one likes it. Well I think it would be a tremendous time saver, since the two people we didn't lynch yesterday will likely come up for suspicion again and be lynched later, and it would have been beneficial to just get 2 of them out of the way together and give us an extra lynch later. Lynching is our only tool for getting the Elves, so what's the harm in getting a couple done at once? I don't understand.

And me not going after Glirdan, like seriously, anyone who's played with us recently shouldn't be surprised. Him and I have such an aweful track record of going at each other like crazy on the first day, and then we both turn up innocent, that now we always give each other a Day, and if we still suspect each other than we go with it later. And we certainly aren't the only ones who say something like "I always suspect them, and I'm always wrong, so I'll leave them be for now".

And then Phantom. Well that was weird, and the only way it could make remotely any sense is if he's just an Ordo who was maybe trying to protect the Seer for a Night (though I can't see Phantom putting himself in the line of fire like that, at least not on the first Day). Then he could be an Elf (in which case clearly the real Seer needs to stay quite), but again, I don't see the benefit of this so early in the game. But it seems highly unlikely he's actually the Seer, cause that would be dumb, and I know he's not. Or there's something I'm totally missing, and if that's the case than do enlighten me, cause this just seems crazy no matter which way I look at it.

But now I need to sleep, I just wanted to get that all out there right off the bat. I *should* be around more for the next two Days.

x'ed with Timmy and Phantom...uhm, what? I don't think that's him dropping out, it seems more like some random act of the Moddess

[satansaloser2005]

K, so WHY were people voting for me yesterDay? I am unimpressed.

That being said, I apologize again for not returning/posting more. Funny part is, Lottie's post had an air of wolfishness to them but I didn't want to get on the thread and post anything because A: I wasn't very coherent, B: I didn't want to look like I was trying to save my hide, and C: I trusted Phantom to keep me around.

Speaking of which, did I miss Phantom's vote? Or did he not use them?


Also, what happened to Boro? And why do I have so many questions?!?! *flails*


I'm going to bed. I mean it when I say I won't be back for about twelve hours.


Quick notes/feelings:

Guilty vibes from: Vanilwa, Steve, Cel
Innocent vibes from: Nog, Legate
Insulted vibes from: Lommie

I'll have to read the thread again, and then I'll try to give more thorough responses.

And again, to any that asked, I voted Phantom for representative yesterDay because, on the whole, he is an intelligent player with whom I trust my voice, even if he is a pigheaded narcissistic airhead. (With love, dear.) There's very few better ways to test Phantom than to give him power, and the best time to do that is on the first Day when he can be vocal and annoying but do hopefully very little damage. And look at that, we got a wolf. Color me surprised and excited. ^_^

*clomps off to bed, throws her smelly boots at small children* And no free drinks while I'm gone!

[the phantom]

Just a quick point- I do not necessarily support giving voting power today to the people most likely to be innocent, particularly if they are likely innocent because they've already proven themselves with their vote as a rep. I would like to see new blood for the most part, while we have time. It will be more important at the end to hand power to the sure thing. Right now let's try and give others a chance in hopes that a couple of others can prove themselves as well, giving us a better chance of having someone trustworthy left alive at the finish.

[Inziladun]

Obvious question first: Why is phantom still alive?

If not for him, Izzy being targeted would be understandable, because her votes were the nail in the coffin for Lottie. But we have a Seer-reveal. And while we're on the subject, even if tp is lying, which seems likely, the real Seer needs to keep quiet for now.

I don't pretend to know what's up with phantom, and I'm not all that hopeful about being enlightened. But in my experience, a revealed Seer is generally a dead Seer. I could see no reason he would have legitimately revealed on Day 1, so I was already sceptical. But why would the elves not have taken him anyway to be on the safe side? There's no one to protect him.

Wilwa's latest comes across as highly defensive.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Speaking of which, did I miss Phantom's vote? Or did he not use them?

You didn't, and he didn't.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Also, what happened to Boro? And why do I have so many questions?!?! *flails*

Boro appears to be a modfire. As to why you have so many questions, I have no answer.

x/d with phantom

[the phantom]

-1-
The following people should be completely and totally off the lynching block today-

Greenie
Lommy
Phantom
Rune
Sally
Steve

Which leaves for lynching... everyone else.

-2-
Largely under my radar

Kath- You will be around more today?
Mira- You too?
Glirdan- You too?
Celuien- No feeling here, surprisingly.
Nog- I realize you had limited time, and your mix of defenses and finger-pointing looked standard.
Foley- Very single-minded yesterday. I can understand an Ordo with a death-grip on a theory, but I'd like to hear more about what other thoughts she has.
Wilwa- Considering the number of posts I have basically no thoughts here. I'm leaning careful Ordo right this second, but I'm not convinced.

-3-
I'd really like to have a bit of a chat with these folks.

Inzil- I absolutely hate your idea that people should not vote for a rep unless they mean it or whatever. I mean, who is always guaranteed to know what they're doing? The SoE. Therefore if anyone refrains from voting it'll probably be an Ordo, which means the vote is more likely to go the SoE way. And overall I thought you were too nice and happy in general. Afraid to make enemies or something. I'll be watching you.

Shasta- You were on both ladies all of yesterday, but you definitely seemed to favor fanning the flames towards Sally rather than Lottie. But then in 282 you said Lommy voted correctly, and she voted Lottie rather than Sally. It brings to mind the nasty idea that you wanted your attack to be proven wrong via a Sally lynch, thus saving Lottie, but then to make yourself look better at the end (when it seemed Izzy would choose Lottie) you gave the thumbs up on the Lottie choice. At least that's the suspicious story I came up with. What is your version? (SEE EDIT)

Legate- I'm really really back and forth on you. I found myself head-nodding with you much of the time, and your suspicions and defenses were well-balanced and such, but, BUT- there was one thing I didn't like about you, and that was the way you handled your rep vote. You really seemed to agonize over it in an odd way, as if you didn't want to make the choice or something. In 109 for instance it looks like you're setting up to later let your voting choice be made by others basically, and in 147/152 that is what in fact happens, yes? Basically in the end, your vote was the logical and only choice rather than your choice, and there's something dodgy about that. Am I off here?

Nerwen- I'm very undecided about you. On my little list of accusations and defenses, I have your line absolutely blank! Was I a screw-up during my readthrough, or were you especially skimpy with opinions yesterday? But at the same time, your post 273 made me wonder if you were maybe the only person on my wave-length as far as understanding precisely what I was up to yesterday (when you quoted my thoughts on Lommy's vote- you seemed to be wise to the fact that I was completely okay with lynching Lottie despite my seeming defenses of her, as evidenced by me not saving her).

(EDIT- I attributed the Lottie support post to you. Don't know how I mixed that up.)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Just a quick point- I do not necessarily support giving voting power today to the people most likely to be innocent, particularly if they are likely innocent because they've already proven themselves with their vote as a rep. I would like to see new blood for the most part, while we have time. It will be more important at the end to hand power to the sure thing. Right now let's try and give others a chance in hopes that a couple of others can prove themselves as well, giving us a better chance of having someone trustworthy left alive at the finish.

So Lommy, who gave three votes for Lottie, shouldn't be considered as a rep again? She looks pretty good to me.
The others I might agree about, since they're harder to figure.

x/d with phantom again

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Inzil

Obvious question first: Why is phantom still alive?

Well, they obviously decided I was bluffing. The only question is, was I? We'll know eventually.

Originally Posted by Inzil

So Lommy, who gave three votes for Lottie, shouldn't be considered as a rep again? She looks pretty good to me.

She's the obvious one, yes. And when I came up with that idea Izzy was still alive (I had the thought early today).

And if you're inclined to extend innocence to Wilwa for her one vote on Lottie, you wouldn't want to vote her for rep either.

Also, don't make me a rep if you're inclined to extend innocence to me for not saving Lottie when I easily could have (by voting Sally or voting for Boro before Izzy cast her vote), or for not double-lynching an innocent Boro alongside her as I could have done.

[Nerwen]

Ya hoi! Ya harri hoi! Come on, one of you big warrior-lads who are always boasting about how many Dwarf-skulls they've cracked! Give a poor Orc–ess a hand! No? Gah, curse the lot of you lazy filth!

...Ah, there we go. How do you all like the Cavern Tavern's latest ornament? Took me all Night to stuff and cure Elladan here, but doesn't he make a fine sight, with the axe still through his head? *laughs orcishly* Let's drink to him, lads! First round's on the house!

–So, no surprises about the Night-kill. Izzy was the person I expected to find dead in the morning– she would have been very hard to lynch, plus she might well have looked like the Seer.

We've got more to think about, anyway. Such as: what is phantom, and why did Lottielf vote for him?

I can see three possibilities:

1. He's an Elf. Simple.
2. He's not an Elf, but, in direct contradiction of what she says here, she was confident of being able to manipulate him.
3. He's not an Elf, but she believed him to be the Unknown Orc, who had already decided to go over to the Elves (denies this here and here).

Originally Posted by the phantom

There are oh so many things to say, but I'm not quite done with my reread. Just one quick question before I go back to reading-

Boro– have you decided upon your alignment yet?

Now, I thought Boro might be an Elf, up until he died– but you thought he was the Unknown Orc, phantom? Why?

And what do you think Lottielf was up to?

EDIT:X'd since Wilwa.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Well, they obviously decided I was bluffing. The only question is, was I? We'll know eventually.

Well, a sane person wouldn't have done what you did if they were the actual Seer. However, I know you aren't quite sane. Still, it would seem a pretty big gamble for the elves to ignore you, when they could have just killed you anyway.

Originally Posted by the phantom

And if you're inclined to extend innocence to Wilwa for her one vote on Lottie, you wouldn't want to vote her for rep either.

She split her vote, so she doesn't look as good as Lommy. And like I said, I didn't much care for her last.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Also, don't make me a rep if you're inclined to extend innocence to me for not saving Lottie when I easily could have (by voting Sally or voting for Boro before Izzy cast her vote), or for not double-lynching an innocent Boro alongside her as I could have done.

Your vote (actually, the lack thereof) and your survival through the Night leave me disinclined to vote for you.

x/d with Nerwen

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Obvious question first: Why is phantom still alive?

If not for him, Izzy being targeted would be understandable, because her votes were the nail in the coffin for Lottie. But we have a Seer-reveal. And while we're on the subject, even if tp is lying, which seems likely, the real Seer needs to keep quiet for now.

I don't pretend to know what's up with phantom, and I'm not all that hopeful about being enlightened. But in my experience, a revealed Seer is generally a dead Seer. I could see no reason he would have legitimately revealed on Day 1, so I was already sceptical. But why would the elves not have taken him anyway to be on the safe side? There's no one to protect him.

Because his reveal was obviously fake, for the reasons you've just stated. (Come on, did anyone read that yesterDay and say: "ZOMG! He was the Seer all along!") Whereas Izzy must have looked pretty Seer-ish. No, I don't find tp's continued existence at all strange.

I'd like an explanation from him though– it seemed completely pointless.
EDIT:X'd with Zil; added comment.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Now, I thought Boro might be an Elf, up until he died– but you thought he was the Unknown Orc, phantom? Why?

Heh heh, no, I just hoped given the time of day he'd be around after I was done rereading, as I wished to start a bit of back-and-forth with him to get a feel for him, as on the first day I thought he was extremely weird and I couldn't get a handle on him.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Because his reveal was obviously fake, for the reasons you've just stated. (Come on, did anyone read that yesterDay and say: "ZOMG! He was the Seer all along!") Whereas Izzy must have looked pretty Seer-ish. No, I don't find tp's continued existence at all strange.

I'd like an explanation from him though– it seemed completely pointless.

Well, naturally my explanation depends completely on who I am. If I'm the Seer, then I'm flippin daring and, depending upon how long I survive, stupid or brilliant. If I'm an Orc then I still gave the SoE something to think about, as you can't dismiss someone like me pulling an obvious double-bluff. If I made them spend even 10 minutes extra on my posts, that's 10 minutes they weren't spending doing better things. If they're busy in RL then that 10 minutes could've been very valuable.

And honestly I think it may have paid off either way. If I'm the Seer then obviously it worked. If I'm not the Seer then I think I may have wasted some of the time they spent on deciding their kill, as Izzy was not definitively on board the Lottie-train so much as she was just the one who cast the final vote for her. I mean, what are the odds that Izzy would have happened to dream of the exact SoE who just happened to be on the chopping block at the end? No, no, there were other targets to go after besides Izzy.

[Inziladun]

Since you're here, Nerwen, why did you cast your votes for Sally and Boro?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

K, so WHY were people voting for me yesterDay? I am unimpressed.

For my part, I wanted to vote one of phantom's constituents. Lottie already had three votes at that stage, while there was no support for Mirandir.

Originally Posted by Sally

That being said, I apologize again for not returning/posting more. Funny part is, Lottie's post had an air of wolfishness to them but I didn't want to get on the thread and post anything because A: I wasn't very coherent, B: I didn't want to look like I was trying to save my hide, and C: I trusted Phantom to keep me around

Oh.

Originally Posted by Sally

And again, to any that asked, I voted Phantom for representative yesterDay because, on the whole, he is an intelligent player with whom I trust my voice, even if he is a pigheaded narcissistic airhead. (With love, dear.) There's very few better ways to test Phantom than to give him power, and the best time to do that is on the first Day when he can be vocal and annoying but do hopefully very little damage. And look at that, we got a wolf.

Your fellow phantom-voter. Don't you have anything to say about that?

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nerwen- I'm very undecided about you. On my little list of accusations and defenses, I have your line absolutely blank! Was I a screw-up during my readthrough,

Clearly.

Originally Posted by the phantom

But at the same time, your post 273 made me wonder if you were maybe the only person on my wave-length as far as understanding precisely what I was up to yesterday (when you quoted my thoughts on Lommy's vote- you seemed to be wise to the fact that I was completely okay with lynching Lottie despite my seeming defenses of her, as evidenced by me not saving her).

*shrugs* I know what you could have been thinking, if you're innocent.

However, I'm not particularly happy with the way you expect everyone to take your failure to save Lottie as proof of your innocence. It isn't. You ought to know that. You are not a known innocent, tp, and in fact I believe you have some explaining to do.

Also, the comments you make in that same post I quoted about Foley, Inzil, Shasta and Legate have something of a clutching-at-straws look– like you're trying to find any reason to suspect someone.

That said, I have my own doubts about Zil toDay, because of the way he keeps harping on the "why is phantom alive?" theme. If phantom's not an Elf, I could see the Elves going, "Ha, ha nice try! Let's kill someone else, then use his being alive toMorrow to frame him!".

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[the phantom]

Purely voting-based reasoning-

Lommy- The first Lottie voter. Uses all three. This merits an automatic pass through today. She also doesn't need to be given any rep votes, as she's already proved herself with them. In later days if she's still around she will be a likely rallying point (a safe person to give rep votes to).

Wilwa- Instead of pushing Sally ahead or raising Boro up, she kept Lottie tied for the lead. Not as obvious as Lommy, but likely deserves a pass through today.

Phantom- Definitely could have saved Lottie by killing Sally, but didn't. Possibly could've saved Lottie by voting Boro before Izzy cast her vote (would she have wanted a double-lynch?). Definitely could've lynched an innocent Boro alongside Lottie, but didn't.

Celuien- Put Boro into serious contention. A more subtle way of saving Lottie than voting Sally perhaps?

Green- First to vote for Sally. If Sally is innocent, then this was likely the best play to save Lottie.

Nerwen- Puts Sally even with Lottie and starts the Boro voting, elevating two alternatives to Lottie at the same time.

Based purely upon voting Lommy obviously looks the best, followed by Wilwa and I, and then the other three could be spun to look suspicious. But of course I'm not factoring anything else into this.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And honestly I think it may have paid off either way. If I'm the Seer then obviously it worked.

I don't know what you're up to, phantom, but I repeat, I find it highly unlikely you're the Seer. I cannot believe a real Seer– even you– would make a completely pointless reveal on Day One. And don't say, "Ah, but it's what they least expected! See how cunning I am!" I don't understand why Seer-you would have any need to try a desperate double-bluff to cover yourself at that point.

Originally Posted by phantom

If I'm not the Seer then I think I may have wasted some of the time they spent on deciding their kill,

If you're not the Seer, you've made a false reveal that might bring the real one out in the open– and again, for no good reason.

Originally Posted by phantom

as Izzy was not definitively on board the Lottie-train so much as she was just the one who cast the final vote for her. I mean, what are the odds that Izzy would have happened to dream of the exact SoE who just happened to be on the chopping block at the end? No, no, there were other targets to go after besides Izzy.

Seers have dreamed of wolves on Night One. It's not that unusual. Plus, even if they didn't think she was the Seer, she was a nice logical kill-choice, as she'd made herself very hard to lynch by her role in killing Lottie. (Killing her, note, not just "failing to save her". There's a difference.) Like I said, she's the person I most expected to turn up dead in the morning.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since you're here, Nerwen, why did you cast your votes for Sally and Boro?

Because I had to vote in a hurry, and I thought there was a good chance at least one of them was an Elf.

EDIT:X'd with tp.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

However, I'm not particularly happy with the way you expect everyone to take your failure to save Lottie as proof of your innocence. It isn't. You ought to know that.

And you ought to know that I don't let my partners die unless they have been outed by a revealed Seer. End of story. Sacrificing a teammate means surviving an extra day in order to win. My best bet has always been to not lose anyone. And heck, if you protect your partner half the village will think it's too obvious anyway, where as if you don't protect them you may well be suspected of throwing your partner under the bus. I protect my pack. Always have, always will. If Boro were still alive he'd definitely back me up on that one, having seen me work.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, the comments you make in that same post I quoted about Foley, Inzil, Shasta and Legate have something of a clutching-at-straws look– like you're trying to find any reason to suspect someone.

First, I never said I suspected Foley. She was on my "under the radar" list.

As far as clutching straws, I see that in fact I attributed a wrong post to Shasta, but actually doing so didn't completely change my attitude, as he was still definitely on the side of lynching Sally rather than Lottie.

But my points on Inzil and Legate- how are they clutching? I explained clearly my gripe with Legate- that he appeared to want his decision made for him (perhaps so he could use the excuse later "I couldn't help it"). And I also explained quite clearly that Inzil's suggestion of not voting was dangerous, and that he really didn't accuse anyone (he was too nice). And didn't I see that you suspect him too?

(x-post Nerwen)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And you ought to know that I don't let my partners die unless they have been outed by a revealed Seer. End of story. Sacrificing a teammate means surviving an extra day in order to win. My best bet has always been to not lose anyone. And heck, if you protect your partner half the village will think it's too obvious anyway, where as if you don't protect them you may well be suspected of throwing your partner under the bus. I protect my pack. Always have, always will. If Boro were still alive he'd definitely back me up on that one, having seen me work.

I'm sorry, phantom, this is just a case of "sez you". You have a nerve trying to paint yourself as a known innocent.

Originally Posted by tp

As far as clutching straws, I see that in fact I attributed a wrong post to Shasta, but actually doing so didn't completely change my attitude, as he was still definitely on the side of lynching Sally rather than Lottie.

Oh, I see. That's suspicious, but spending all Day defending a known wolf isn't? I say again: Sally and Lottie were both perfectly logical lynch-choices yesterDay.

Originally Posted by the phantom

But my points on Inzil and Legate- how are they clutching? I explained clearly my gripe with Legate- that he appeared to want his decision made for him (perhaps so he could use the excuse later "I couldn't help it"). And I also explained quite clearly that Inzil's suggestion of not voting was dangerous, and that he really didn't accuse anyone (he was too nice). And didn't I see that you suspect him too?

Yes, I do, but for different reasons.

[the phantom]

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If you're not the Seer, you've made a false reveal that might bring the real one out in the open– and again, for no good reason.

Honestly.

I'm looking at the player list, and I don't see any noobs on it. Who would counter-reveal in a situation like this? I mean, I'm not being the least bit destructive with my claim. I mean, heck, I'm not even demanding that you follow me or vote like me etc. I haven't repeated my claim since the day started either. Seriously, it's like you're begging for me to say too much or commit one way or the other, which a true Orc would know would serve no good purpose at all.

You are REALLY making me suspicious at this point.

(x-post)

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

That said, I have my own doubts about Zil toDay, because of the way he keeps harping on the "why is phantom alive?" theme. If phantom's not an Elf, I could see the Elves going, "Ha, ha nice try! Let's kill someone else, then use his being alive toMorrow to frame him!".

I think it's extremely funny that this is why you suspect Inzil and yet you fit the profile of this idea far more than he does to this point.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'm sorry, phantom, this is just a case of "sez you". You have a nerve trying to paint yourself as a known innocent.

I didn't say my vote made me innocent guaranteed. I at least had the decency to place myself in a lower category than Lommy. But sorry, I am going to point out obvious things about the voting that likely are important to anyone who is extremely familiar with my operations.

[Nerwen]

In case I haven't made myself clear: phantom, I don't like the fact that you're talking as though you're now completely cleared by the mere fact that you let Lottie die yesterDay. Oh yes: "If I were a wolf I wouldn't do that". How many times have we all heard that one?

Your apparent obliviousness to the actual situation makes me worry about you as much, or more, than anything that happened yesterDay– it makes me feel like you're hoping to quash suspicion by sheer force of personality. Which is something you might even be able to bring off, too.

I do not say you are an Elf, mind, tp. I say that you do not currently have the luxury of sitting back and giving your impartial opinion on everyone else from the lofty height of a known innocent. Not at all.

Again: what do you now think Lottie was up to, yesterDay, and why did you appear to trust her so completely, until late in the Day?

Again: why did you claim to be the Seer?

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

Honestly.

Not honestly. If you're faking it you might be: a.) one of the SoE or b.) the Unknown Orc (having decided to take their side).

This is a very, very obvious point and again, your ignoring it does not make you look good.

[Nerwen]

In fact, phantom, your strategy so far appears to consist largely of the following:

Step 1. Do something suspicious.
Step 2. Claim it was all part of your cunning plan.
Step 3 (optional). Insist that only baddies would call your conduct into question, because everyone should know your plans are so very, very cunning.

Rinse. Repeat.

Ummm... you know what? Actually, I have no idea why a phantom-anything would do this.

[the phantom]

Okay Nerwen- you're done as far as I'm concerned. You're making no sense, and ignoring posts.

You just asked me yet another Seer question (Why did you do it, Phantom?). A question which was already answered completely and totally here. I mean, this is nothing new for me. I've done this exact thing before (in the last Rep game, in fact). If I'm faking, how are you helping the village by making it clear? If I'm the real thing, how are you helping the village by making it clear?

What you're doing can ONLY hurt this village, and I know that you know better, so I can only assume that you're not on my side. Possibly a bold SoE or maybe the newly evil Orc helper.

I shouldn't even bother talking with you any more. But because I'm a good sport-

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Again: what do you now think Lottie was up to, yesterDay, and why did you appear to trust her so completely, until late in the Day?

If you will look back at post #72 I state quite clearly that my initial demand for votes had a chance of hooking a SoE, and the manner in which I described it fit with Lottie quite nicely. To anyone who was paying attention then, they would've known that already at that time I most definitely was not assuming Lottie was an Orc.

In post #200 I explain very clearly my defense of her, saying that I am NOT declaring her innocent, but rather I am suspicious of the reasoning that so many people jumped on.

Then in post #271 I say to Lommy that out of her suspects (Lottie, Sally, and me) I thought she had gone with the correct one, though I personally believed that she was doing so for the wrong reason (i.e. the correct reason in my mind was that she'd fallen into my little stunt, while with Lommy's reasoning I still thought that someone in her crowd was using fishy reasoning against Sally/Lottie, which is why I'm especially suspicious of anyone who suspected those two but put forth Sally as the correct choice).

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If you're faking it you might be: a.) one of the SoE or b.) the Unknown Orc (having decided to take their side).

This is a very, very obvious point and again, your ignoring it does not make you look good.

But I'm not a SoE or a traitor orc, so what exactly do you want me to say about it? It's not a point that can be addressed in any way. The best I can do is point to my voting yesterday and offer that if I am a SoE then I'm a very dumb one, as at the very least I could've nabbed an innocent in the lynch alongside my packmate. What else is there to say?

But yeah, I'm pretty much writing you off at this stage. A true Orc would've looked at my Seer shout yesterday and kept their mouth shut about and just watched to see what happened. An Orc would've thought, "If he's for real then he's banking on them thinking it's a bluff. I'll keep my mouth shut, as I don't wish to out him. If he's an Orc then he's trying to mess with the night-kill and protect the Seer. I'll keep my mouth shut, as I don't wish to ruin the bluff. If he's actually a SoE then I suppose I'll just have to wait and see if he throws his weight around or leads us incorrectly and trust the real Seer will play it smart."

I just can't believe you're an Orc at this point.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Sally

And look at that, we got a wolf. Color me surprised and excited.

Which had nothing to do with Phantom - I don't know why you're attributing it to him. Every single post you've made today strikes me as wolvish, dear Sally.

Also, does anyone else notice that any time someone questions Phantom too much, he ends up thinking they're a baddie? Nerwen has made several good points about your play so far, Phantom, and if I didn't have work in five hours I'd go through and point them out (again). That's something for tomorrow, I guess.

But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.

Good night.

[Nerwen]

I just want to revisit the Seer-question, because I don't think my first response quite covered the amount of sheer nonsense in that one post:

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

If you're an innocent faking it– though for the life of me I don't know why– the harm I'd do by getting you to admit it is minimal. Oh, look, the wolves get to cross one, highly unlikely person off the "Possible Seers" list. On Day Two in a large village. What a disaster.

If you were the Seer double-bluffing, clearly I'd be doing the village a service by convincing the wolves it wasn't so. Also, if you were the Seer, why would you even suggest that you might be double-bluffing? You know, like you just did?

Originally Posted by the phantom

I'm looking at the player list, and I don't see any noobs on it. Who would counter-reveal in a situation like this?

If you claim there is no real risk of a fake-reveal flushing gifteds out... well, then, obviously you haven't played many games of wer– oh, wait, you have.

Or do you say that your reveal was so obviously fake that the real Seer would know you couldn't be a baddie, and must be on the village's side. Then why did you make it?

Originally Posted by the phantom

I mean, I'm not being the least bit destructive with my claim. I mean, heck, I'm not even demanding that you follow me or vote like me etc. I haven't repeated my claim since the day started either. Seriously, it's like you're begging for me to say too much or commit one way or the other, which a true Orc would know would serve no good purpose at all.

You are REALLY making me suspicious at this point.

You revealed. There seems no good reason for it. That's enough. You were bound to be questioned over it, and you must have known this. You do have a nerve, mate!

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

*sigh*

Phantom, your latest post is just more of the same. I don't have anything to say to it that I didn't in my last one (that x-posted with yours). Except about the Lottie business. Yeah, you were all over the place about Lottie and Sally and what you were doing and what you thought they were doing yesterDay. Steve has already pointed out the timing-problem with your explanation that you were just trying to catch an Elf.

Been there, done that.

EDIT: name left out.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Which had nothing to do with Phantom - I don't know why you're attributing it to him. Every single post you've made today strikes me as wolvish, dear Sally.

*cough* I believe she's only made one post toDay, my treasure. It is, however, indeed quite a furry– or should I say pointy-eared– little performance.

Originally Posted by Shasta

But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.

Sally being innocent would go some way towards exonerating the phantom, though, wouldn't it? (Not entirely, however.) Could be why he's pushing it.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If you're an innocent faking it– though for the life of me I don't know why–

So the SoE would kill me, duh. I mean, come on. Why else fake it?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh, look, the wolves get to cross one, highly unlikely person off the "Possible Seers" list. On Day Two in a large village. What a disaster.

It IS a disaster!! After yesterday I had the possible Seers narrowed down to FOUR (Izzy was not one, btw). I imagine by the end of today I'll be able to cross off at least two more. Narrowing it down by one is a HUGE deal! I mean, what if it's narrowed down to two people- the real one and a fake one? That ONE extra person makes a massive difference!

Am I the only one taking the Seer seriously?! We only have ONE gifted! We should all be doing whatever we can to make it muddy for Seer-hunters, and what you've done today has not helped! I mean, at this point they have to pretty well know that it's not me, which absolutely sucks, because I was hoping to be night-killed! This is cutting into my sleep time and work time etc and I was hoping hoping to die early, but I hugely preferred to be night-killed as at least that would actually serve a purpose and help my side.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If you claim there is no real risk of a fake-reveal flushing gifteds out... well, then, obviously you haven't played many games of wer– oh, wait, you have.

It's all in the manner in which it is done, m'dear, and who else is in the village. I mean, can you imagine any one of the players here counter-revealing on Day 2 due to a throwaway comment at the end of Day 1 by a notoriously crazy player? Your fear of a counter-reveal is downright insane, and insulting to the intelligence of the remaining villagers. If I had any fear whatsoever of a counter-reveal, I wouldn't have done it.

Coming into today I actually didn't plan to so much as mention my final post from yesterday. I assumed most everyone would write it off except for perhaps, hopefully, the SoE. The last thing I expected was to have a couple people immediately jump up and down and point it out, because as I said earlier, doing so serves NO POSITIVE PURPOSE! I mean- what can bringing it up possibly accomplish? That is why I'm very suspicious of anyone harping on the point, but perhaps it is my mistake to assume that everyone else would think this matter through so carefully, as they are on the outside looking in so to say.

Yeesh. This feels like a repeat of the last Rep game.

This is the way I assumed rational people would look at what I did-

1) If Phantom's an Orc, then his purpose is obvious and the best reaction to it would be not to ask questions about it and let him do his thing.
2) If Phantom is the Seer, then his purpose is obvious and the best reaction to it would be not to ask questions about it and let him do his thing.
3) If Phantom is a SoE, I can only assume he's trying to pass himself off as a self-sacrificing Orc, or paving the way for a future reveal. The best reaction would be to watch and wait to see what he does. I might want to question him about it, but given the odds are higher that it's one of the first two options the overall best bet would be to keep my mouth shut.

I mean, you do realize that the only reason we're talking about this is because you people won't let it go? It's an entirely useless discussion to have even started, and it's especially useless now that I've basically admitted I was totally faking it.

[Nerwen]

Phantom–

Yes, we only have one gifted. Therefore you, if innocent, had no business taking that risk. The rest is nothing.

Stop acting like you're some kind of special super-Orc whose actions should be above question. It is entirely normal and logical that I've been asking you about this, and don't think you're going to bluster your way out of it.

As for what you are– Morgoth only knows! Your performance toDay doesn't make that much sense for an experienced player in any role. However, I'm inclining more and more towards "guilty". (And, in that case, likely Sally's partner.)

If not, you're certainly not helping your side, the way you're acting. Can't you see that?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, we only have one gifted. Therefore you, if innocent, had no business taking that risk. The rest is nothing.

WHAT RISK??!!

The risk I would be killed in place of the Seer? I mean... what?

And don't even say, "Er, the Seer might've counter-revealed" because that would assume that the true Seer is an idiot. I've done several fake reveals in the past, and NEVER has one of them resulted in a counter-reveal. Why? Because I knew the situation and who I was playing with.

I say again- thinking that a throwaway Day 1 comment by a crazy bugger like me would prompt a reactionary reveal by our Seer is to think that your fellow villagers are idiots. You cannot justify your claim by saying, "There've been counters in other games!" This is me, in this game, with these people, at this precise moment. With me, in this village, at that time, there was not going to be a counter-reveal. End of story. I can't believe I'm even having to explain it.

It is entirely normal and logical that I've been asking you about this, and don't think you're going to bluster your way out of it.

It's only "normal and logical" in the sense that you are curious and want to know. Of course we're curious about each other's purposes and roles. But wondering about something doesn't mean that it is in the best interest of your team to wonder about it openly!

Have you still not grasped that your questioning of me was bound to from the very start yield nothing useful whatsoever? I mean- you've still never responded to this point that I've made again and again- the fact that from the start there was no point to you asking these questions. No matter what my role or motivation, talking about this gets us nowhere.

As for what you are– Morgoth only knows! Your performance toDay doesn't make that much sense for an experienced player in any role.

I've only had to give a performance today because YOU have chosen to travel down this pointless road.

If you want to take a look at how you should've done this thing, look at Inzil. Though I'm not completely happy that he even brought it up, he simply asked his questions and moved on, either because he gained what he wanted or because he knew that continuing to talk about it was without purpose. No additional info would be gained, and no help to the village would result.

You said yourself in your first post on the matter that my comment was obviously complete bunk, so tell me why have you insisted on filling up an entire page based upon a complete and total throwaway comment? This is a waste of everyone's time. Seriously, all you people reading this- I'm sorry these minutes of your life have been flushed down the drain.

[the phantom]

Okay, I really would like to sleep now. *yawns*

Nerwen- if you're an Orc then you seriously need to stop. Take a step back and just look at what I said and when I said it. My move was not at all risky and the motivation is obvious if I'm innocent, thus the act says nothing whatsoever as to my guilt/innocence. It is simply a matter of what you believe already.

If you think I'm guilty then you have to make your own explanation for why I did what I did.
If you think I'm innocent then you accept that I was trying to make myself a target, particularly since you know it is something I do regularly in other games. I mean- frankly I'd be suspicious of a non-gifted Phantom that didn't try to get himself night-killed. I LOVE being Wolf-killed as an Ordo.

It's one or the other. Either I'm good or bad. If I may be permitted to say so, if anything the act itself points to good since it's something good-Phantom does often for a known reason, where as I've never done so as a baddie and who knows what my purpose would be? But anyway, all you're managing to do is tick me off. If I don't sleep well tonight then don't be surprised if I'm in all caps insulting mode when I come in tomorrow.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Have you still not grasped that your questioning of me was bound to from the very start yield nothing useful whatsoever? I mean- you've still never responded to this point that I've made again and again- the fact that from the start there was no point to you asking these questions. No matter what my role or motivation, talking about this gets us nowhere.

Phantom, I don't know what you're doing, but I'm trying to hunt Elves. Therefore, following up odd behaviour has a point.

Originally Posted by the phantom

I've only had to give a performance today because YOU have chosen to travel down this pointless road.

Read back over what you've said and what I've said. *sigh* I'm getting very tired of this myself, actually. It's starting to look like you're never going to give me a satisfactory answer, just it-was-all-part-of-my-plan-and-now-you've-spoiled-everything.

Really. If you're a true Orc, try and think about how this all looks to another innocent.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Sally

Funny part is, Lottie's post had an air of wolfishness to them but I didn't want to get on the thread and post anything because A: I wasn't very coherent, B: I didn't want to look like I was trying to save my hide, and C: I trusted Phantom to keep me around.

Erm... what? I'm having a serious problem with this post. I'm debating which is more unlikely: an innocent Sally reasoning that way, or an opportunistic Sallyelf stating her reasoning that openly. Sally, my love, why if you're innocent would you refrain from stating your opinion only because not stating it kept you safe from suspicion?

Also, Sally's "Look I was right to vote phantom for rep, we got an elf!" is weird, considering that phantom had nothing to do with that lynch.

Originally Posted by Shasta

But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.

I'm not sure about this. It would have been really bold from Lottielf to follow Sallyelf's rep vote so openly. Then again, I'm not sure of whether I've ever played with an evil Lottie before, so I don't know whether she would pull a stunt like that. On the other hand, I agree with you that Sally continues to look suspicious - maybe even more so than yesterDay. In fact, I find it rather scary how much I agree with you.

Originally Posted by phantom yesterDay

I wish I had six votes and could just slap them on Glirdan or Wilwa and get this over with.

Originally Posted by phantom

Wilwa- Considering the number of posts I have basically no thoughts here. I'm leaning careful Ordo right this second, but I'm not convinced.

What made you change your mind?

Originally Posted by phantom

Also, don't make me a rep if you're inclined to extend innocence to me for not saving Lottie when I easily could have (by voting Sally or voting for Boro before Izzy cast her vote), or for not double-lynching an innocent Boro alongside her as I could have done.

Speaking of that - I'm sorry if you've already explained this and I have missed it, but why didn't you vote yesterDay? As far as I've seen you have just given a lot of reasons why you would have voted had you been an elf.

I don't know what to think of the row between Nerwen and phantom, so I've decided to ignore it for the time being.

A sidenote. Lommy asked me to inform you guys that she will not be around much on the first half of the Day, but should be here normally on the second.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Greenie

I'm not sure about this. It would have been really bold from Lottielf to follow Sallyelf's rep vote so openly. Then again, I'm not sure of whether I've ever played with an evil Lottie before, so I don't know whether she would pull a stunt like that.

Lottie's only been a baddie twice before, I think, but judging from her play then it's something she might do. Doesn't mean that's what happened, of course, but I don't think it would be out of character.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I am now around, unfortunately I am afraid that my participation will once again be unluckily diminished due to unforseen RL way of things. I think I won't be around for most of the Day, but I want to show up at least surely closer to the end of the Day (several hours before DL) and re-read at least generally and vote and all. This is just a random occurance, I should be more active later on.

Izzy's death is sort of explainable, she was a Lottie-voter, aside from that, many people seemed to trust her. Lottie's wolvery is not such a big surprise either, and now if you ask me, I think that makes sally rather innocent. I'd like to take a better look at the way the Lottie-voters voted, but generally I think it might be a good indication of the peoples' innocence. It would be interesting to know how many Wolves might've been among the Representatives yesterDay.

As for phantom (tried to avoid that topic as long as I could, but alas! ), with all the weird stuff, I find him more likely to be a mad bold ordinary person than anything else. Like with the yesterDay's stuff, he is bringing very much attention to himself, which would not do too well for a Wolf either. Although, on the other hand, I'd like to look at the timing of his Seer reveal - because now it had occured to me that if he was a Wolf, acting boldly, and then suddenly one of his teammates was about to be lynched, his boldness suddenly meant another possible threat to the WWs' team, so maybe he could try even more ridiculous move to save his skin by revealing as a Seer? If you know what I mean. But I think that would make more sense only if he revealed after it was clear that Lottie goes. Anyway, if it was not, I am more inclined to think him an innocent.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Legate- I'm really really back and forth on you. I found myself head-nodding with you much of the time, and your suspicions and defenses were well-balanced and such, but, BUT- there was one thing I didn't like about you, and that was the way you handled your rep vote. You really seemed to agonize over it in an odd way, as if you didn't want to make the choice or something. In 109 for instance it looks like you're setting up to later let your voting choice be made by others basically, and in 147/152 that is what in fact happens, yes? Basically in the end, your vote was the logical and only choice rather than your choice, and there's something dodgy about that. Am I off here?

Not sure if I get exactly what you mean by "agonizing", but basically, it was like this: I wanted to vote somebody of the people I listed who had already one vote, or then Foley. The problem was that she had no vote, and I did not want to cast a vote for her if nobody else voted her. I was waiting and asking for a response several times, it was late and I was rather tired and at the same time doing still other things before I go to sleep, so once in a while I just checked if somebody nodded to my idea. As nobody did for a long time, then I decided to go with Nerwen, and by that time, it turned out that anyway of the people I wanted to vote she basically remained like that. Yes, it was sort of relieving that the path was completely clearly shown by that, but I said earlier, I would've voted her probably anyway.

Not much time to post now anymore... might be that I will get a chance to pop in still early during the Day (or at least read, if not post, so that I can think of things), but not sure. Sorry for the now limited participation - like I said, will be back before the end of the Day, and then it should be normal again.

EDIT: x-ed since last phantom

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Just a quick point- I do not necessarily support giving voting power today to the people most likely to be innocent, particularly if they are likely innocent because they've already proven themselves with their vote as a rep. I would like to see new blood for the most part, while we have time. It will be more important at the end to hand power to the sure thing. Right now let's try and give others a chance in hopes that a couple of others can prove themselves as well, giving us a better chance of having someone trustworthy left alive at the finish.

I can actually follow this reasoning, at least at this stage in the game it could be useful. I might just cast my vote for a person I would like to know more about.



Anyway this Phantom vs. Nerwen business is starting make me feel sick and I have given up on taking proper notes. . . Is this a delusional power struggle or simply a massive case of over analysing each other?

Personally I am of the opinion that if a seer was to reveal his or hers true identity on the basis on a bluff like yesterday, then they deserve to get lynched for being bloody stupid.

Yes the Phantoms actions are often weird and sometimes makes you want to crush your own skull with a sledgehammer, but that is just something you have to get used to. Personally I do not believe half his tales about how cunning he is, but I don't find him overly suspicious and I definitely do not see it as being beneficial to spend the entire day fighting him.